751214 - Conversation - Delhi
Bhāgavata: ... explaining to them the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in pure devotional service so that they may go back to home, back to Godhead and become liberated from the realms of birth and death in this material world.
Prabhupāda: Is that alright? What he's saying. So, how to help them?
Devotee: First we give them the chanting, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee: First we give them the mah-mantra.
Prabhupāda: Mah-mantra, one may not accept.
Bhāgavata: We have to find the ways and the means by which we can make pure devotional service attractive to each living entity according to his...
Prabhupāda: Unless one feels necessity, why they will accept your proposal to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? How you'll make them think "Yes, it is necessity." That is wanted. Otherwise anyone will say, some proposition, "You do this." Then why they will accept it?
Bhāgavata: Hm. We have to make...
Prabhupāda: Unless he feels that... That requires philosophy. If you say something dogmatic, why they'll accept? You say that, "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." He'll say, "I have no interest. I have no interest, why shall I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa?"
Devotee: Tell them that they are eternal spirit soul.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee: You tell them that you are eternal spirit soul. Tell them about the eternal spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: That you have to convince. That you are eternal, but you are falsely engaged in temporary business. That you have to tell them.
Bhāgavata: We have to give them knowledge. Knowledge consists of telling them what is the field, who is the knower of the field, and the super-knower of the field. Once they get knowledge, knowledge is the preliminary step to executing devotional service. Once they have knowledge then they will be able to execute devotional service. And Rūpa Goswami says that one who executes devotional service in knowledge, increases his knowledge. Therefore the first thing is that we should give them knowledge and knowledge means to understand this body, the owner of the body, and the supreme owner of the body, Kṛṣṇa./ Puṛuṣa prakṛti caiva,/ kṣetra kṣetrajñam eva ca./ etad veditum icchāmi/ jñāna jñeya ca keśava. "What is the field; what is the puruṣa; the enjoyer; what is prakṛti, nature; what is the kṣetra the field; what is the kṣetrajñor; the knower of the field; what is knowledge and what is the end of knowledge. These things I wish to know.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Bhāgavata: And Kṛṣṇa answers him. He says that, ida śarīra kaunteya —"My dear Kuntī, śarīraṁ, this body, kṣetrajña.. kṣetrajnam ...
Prabhupāda: Not my dear Kuntī.
Bhāgavata: My dear son of Kuntī.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhāgavata: Kṣetram ity abhidhīyate; that this body is known as the field. Etad yo vetti ta prāhu kṣetrajña iti tad-vidaḥ; that this body is known as the field and one who knows this field, he is the knower of the field, he is the knower of the body.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So how to explain, everyone is acting. How he is acting, on the field, that is stated next verse. Field of activities. In English it is called field of activity. That field of activity is this body. According to the body one begins his... Just like one born in the dog's body so the dog care... They, from the very beginning they are searching after a master. You have seen the small?
Hari-śauri: Pup.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They follow, some gentleman. And because at that time it is good living, somebody takes charge, "Alright let me take this pup." And the children also like, so he gets some shelter. So similarly, according to different body the activities begins. Therefore body is the field of activities. A snake, because he has got the field of activity of a snake's body, from the very beginning he is very, very envious. The same, trying to bite others. In this way our activities begin according to the body. And this change of bodies take place in the lower animal life automatically, by nature's law. Prakṛte kriyamānāni guṇai karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. But when comes to the form of a human being, on account of developed consciousness, he has got responsibility. He has to make his choice. He is suffering in this material world changing different types of bodies, one after another, and the propensity to lord it over the material world is going on. Now he has to change the consciousness, whether he wants to continue this propensity for lording over the material world, or he wants to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This choice has to be made by the human being. If he makes his choice after getting good education from the right source, that "I am going on in the wrong way, by the desire to lord it over the material nature but I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa therefore I must surrender now. Bahūnā janmanām ante jñānavān mām... This is wisdom. And if we do not get this wisdom, simply like animals we continue to lord it over the material nature, by acquiring money. Dharma, artha, kama. Then we are spoiling our life. Separate times we become religious for being promoted to higher standard of life, economic development, big, big scheme, plans, how to make gorgeous city, buildings, roads, cars, slaughter house, scientific, how to cut throat very scientifically. These plans are going on. Some of them are trying to be religious to go to the heaven because he has heard, and that's a fact also, that heavenly planets the standard of living is more opulent, hundreds and thousands times, the sex enjoyment, is hundred and thousand times better. So by so-called religious functions and sacrifices, they are engaged the same, how to satisfy the senses. The dog is also anxious to satisfy his senses. As soon as he finds a female dog, he wants to make friendship with her and have sex. On the street, never mind. And similarly the demigods they are also engaged in the same business. In a different standard only. The business is the same. Āhāra-nidr-bhayam etam. So if one wants to continue this business then he'll continue this material body and if he wants to stop this business, come to his original position, then he makes real progress. But nobody is interested in advancement of spiritual life. Generally they take to religion, religiosity, for material happiness. Artho 'rhati. I am distressed, I have no money, or I am suffering from some disease; you'll find all these. So all of them go to the sādhus only for this purpose. Sir, I am suffering from some disease, so without going to the doctor, and saving so much money, let me pay hundred rupees to the sādhu and he'll give me his blessings. So I will save thousands of rupees, for curing the disease. For this purpose they go to sādhu. Nobody goes to sādhu for going back to home back to godhead. It is only (material) proposition. Otherwise the so-called yogis, sādhus, swamis, they are making good luck business simply by promising that you'll get this material power. This Mahesh Yogi he says that, what is his philosophy?
Harikesa: He says that if you renounce now, you can enjoy later. That if you take some austerity now, like meditation, abstaining from certain things, that later on you can enjoy sex life unlimitedly, have clear intelligence unlimtedly, and ultimately become the...
Prabhupāda: The Mahesh Yogi, TM. Transcendental meditation. But I don't think they say that if you undergo austerities you...
Harikesa: No, that was in the beginning they were saying...
Prabhupāda: Oh now he has changed!
Harikesa: Now he has changed, because it was too unpopular.
Prabhupāda: It is business.
Bhāgavata: Rajneesh is also like that.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Bhāgavata: Rajneesh, same philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Hm. But they do not know; na te vidu svartha-gati hi viṣṇum; these rascals they do not know what is the actual aim of life. They are, in the groups of ordinary men, they are doing some business opened this transcendental TM shop, that's all. Cheating. Cheating. All of them are are going on, cheating. Nobody knows the real interest is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Nobody knows. Ask any so-called sādhu, yogi, swami—they do not know. They read Bhagavad-gītā but they do not understand. (sic:) Yad jñātv na nivartante tad dhāma parama mama, so what do they understand, these... tyaktv deha punar janma naiti mam eti so'rjuna. They do not believe all these things, therefore they say.. Swami Chinmayananda says that whatever is necessary we shall accept; other ślokas we shall reject. This is his, this rascal's philosophy. As if Kṛṣṇa says something superfluous. They say like that. And the other day some gentleman came, "It is ficticious writing... You were present?
Haṁsadūta: Hm.
Prabhupāda: "Why he is not silent?" Kṛṣṇa is not silent. Kṛṣṇa is speaking. Why you should be silent when I challenge you like this. He said, he could not answer. This is going on. So many things they are doing, if they are challenged, they cannot answer. You were present? I told him, "Why silent? Kṛṣṇa is not silent. He says continually, Bhagavān uvāca; page after page, and he's saying "Why he should silent?" He gave me the information that Brahman was silent and anyone who would go to him, he would remain silent and the message would be transferred.
Bhāgavata: Rajneesh says the same thing. He says that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna did not speak, Kṛṣṇa simply looked at Arjuna and Arjuna understood. But in order for Dhṛtarāṣṭra to understand, because he was blind, Sañjaya is speaking and he is explaining everything and Vyāsa has written down what Sañjaya has explained. This is, that is what Rajneesh says like that. So why does Sañjaya say Bhagavān uvāca?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Sañjaya heard, then he said?
Bhāgavata: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So, then Kṛṣṇa is speaking, otherwise how he heard? Hm? This nonsense is going on. Everywhere, it is very difficult position. So many rascals. And we have to push on our movement through so many obstacles, but still we are going on, that is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Otherwise we are simply meeting with obstacles. What can be done? We have to go, forward. I, I met in... same idea! Impersonalism, bogus thought and no clear idea.
Bhāgavata: One man came to Calcutta temple, and he insisted that Kṛṣṇa was impersonal, that He has no form. That He was, ultimately there is just the Brahman. I said that Kṛṣṇa says in the Gītā, brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham; He says, "that aham means the Brahman." I said that if that aham means the Brahman, then why is Kṛṣṇa being redundant in saying that the Brahman is subordinate to the Brahman? Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham, He just said Brahman is subordinate to aham, Me. So if aham means Brahman then why is Kṛṣṇa saying the Brahman is subordinate to the Brahman? And they are swamis, yogis and avatāras. It is very dangerous position, very dangerous. We have to deal with all rascals and fools. And they have made some position, of course that position is nothing, hm? A big big, I mean to say, Mr. Nanda is also big thing, of this idea, nirveśeṣa-śūnyavādī; still we cannot change our position. We must go on with our conviction and that is real. Reality. So, begin kīrtana. (end)