750327 - Conversation with GBC - Mayapur

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

750327R1-MAYAPUR - March 27, 1975 - 56:05 Minutes

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . has done, and what everyone likes to do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: And then we will decide.

Jayatīrtha: That's nice. That's nice. So I can go on and read these . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: I hope this isn't, er . . . anyway, this is discussing the responsibilities of the GBC men in their zones. So we've already said to organize opening new temples, to appoint temple presidents for new temples, to be responsible for training all temple presidents and ensuring spiritual standards. In the case of major deviation or resignation . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, you . . . first of all, you finish one business. That Oath of Allegiance, so addition, alteration, you have made. Complete, so that it may be typed.

Jayatīrtha: Satsvarūpa is was, is going . . .

Satsvarūpa: The only thing we've done is comment that Asnani's form hasn't specified on devotional principles.

Prabhupāda: So make addition, alteration, I say. You amongst yourselves.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, add that one must follow four regulative prin . . .

Satsvarūpa: I can just add what Brahmānanda Mahārāja has.

Prabhupāda: So do it!, amongst yourselves.

Jayatīrtha: All right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wants to finalize.

Prabhupāda: Discuss and do it, and make a final . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This Oath of Allegiance is a legal document also, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's both a legal document and a spiritual document.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Everything we have is spiritual.

Prabhupāda: We cannot avoid.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there must be legal also. That's the point.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: So somebody can read it?

Prabhupāda: So next make this final.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I recommend that you put Brahmānanda Swami's reco . . . on the top part, just . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Brahmānanda Swami's proposals, top portion, we'll just add?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So whatever you make, addition, alteration, make it copied.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: And give it to be typed.

Prabhupāda: Don't keep it. Finish one business.

Satsvarūpa: So it's just a matter of typing it, then?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: We can't sign anything now. It's not in . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, you want to make some addition, alteration, to that. So make it complete. Then retype and then sign.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Everyone has agreed on what it should be.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Has everyone agreed?

Madhudviṣa: Well, why don't you read it? Why don't you compose it and then let us all see what it says.

Satsvarūpa: If I can read it out loud. Can I have the other . . .?

Brahmānanda: We're . . . read what the proposal at the top portion . . .

Madhudviṣa: I give Satsvarūpa the whole thing in that . . .

Satsvarūpa: All right. So the whole thing, then, would read like . . . this is a proposal that it should read like this, "I, spiritual name, as initiated disciple, and GBC secretary of His Divine Grace . . ."

Madhudviṣa: Both names should be there.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, prabhujī . . .

Madhudviṣa: Spiritual and, and, and legal name . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It should start with this.

Satsvarūpa: Well, it's not sure what it should start with. That's it.

Madhudviṣa: Both names should be there, because a spiritual name is not legal.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact.

Jayatīrtha: Both names. Good.

Satsvarūpa: " . . . as GBC secretary of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder . . ."

Prabhupāda: You . . . you . . . you make one copy, your copy, and make addition, alteration, corrections, and then copy the same thing for other men. That will be easier.

Satsvarūpa: All right.

Prabhupāda: You . . . you just fill up one copy, as you are doing. So make addition, alteration, your name, your spiritual name, everything complete. So, following that copy, others will do. Is that all right?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I recommend that we keep this one . . .

Prabhupāda: Or you can make . . . anyone, you can take.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . in this shape.

Prabhupāda: You, you can make addition, alteration, everything, and read it complete. Then take that proposal. That's all.

Jayatīrtha: So maybe, Ātreya Ṛṣi, you can write out a final draft of it . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: . . . including both things, and then you can read it to everyone.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Where's Brahmānanda Swami's?

Jayatīrtha: Is that all right? Should we go on while he's writing?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: We can go on.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: The main purpose of these points is simply to try to put it down in writing what the GBC man can do himself, what things he requires—the whole group—what things he requires to consult with others on, in this way, so there won't be any question, "What I can do, what I can't do." Is that all right?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: Okay. (reading) "To insure that the highest standards, including spiritual temple worship, saṅkīrtana propaganda, recruitment of new devotees and Life Members, financial management and repayment of all debts are being adhered to."

Prabhupāda: Why debts? Debts should be avoided. Not payment, but one should not make debt.

Jayatīrtha: But that . . . all temples . . . all the temples are in debt.

Prabhupāda: Why? That's not . . . debts are very wrong.

Jayatīrtha: Either they owe BBT money or they owe bank money.

Prabhupāda: That is not good. Debts should be . . . no debts. That, if any temple wants to make debt, it must be sanctioned by the GBC committee.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Make it clear.

Jayatīrtha: That's nice.

Prabhupāda: Not that he whimsically, the president, can put the Society into debts, unless it is sanctioned.

Jayatīrtha: That's included in here, more or . . . more or less.

Prabhupāda: Make it clear: "They cannot create any debt."

Jayatīrtha: Just like to come to this festival has put everyone in debt.

Prabhupāda: That is risky. That is risky.

Rūpānuga: Be very specific about it.

Jayatīrtha: Right. The next point is to ensure . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Let me just make sure this is understood. Any . . . any debts that any temple has, is going to make, has to be approved by the GBC representative.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When you say debt, do you mean a loan?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Loan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: But . . .

Prabhupāda: Loan is also debt.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But if they are buying BBT books, if . . . on the books it may seem debt, but in fact he should know that he's going to pay for it in the very near fu . . . that you do not consider need approval, do you, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Jayatīrtha: The books are sold on consignment.

Prabhupāda: No, and that is all right. That is all right.

Jayatīrtha: If they fall behind, then it becomes a debt.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's different. Thirty days' pay . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: In other words, as long as he meets the terms, it's not a debt. It's not a loan.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: As soon as it goes over the term, it's unapproved.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then a loan, where you're paying on time, is that considered a debt?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. That's a loan. That has to be approved. That has to be, as much as possible, avoided. In other words, everything you're doing, more or less, on cash basis.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: You don't depend on tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: Otherwise, sometimes a president may leave, leaving so many debts, so many loans, so many this, so many that.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is our standard of management. Listen. If the temple president doesn't understand it, teach him.

Jayatīrtha: That's right.

Prabhupāda: That's right. So all these things you write. Otherwise you forget.

Jayatīrtha: Yeah, that, we'll . . . the next point is to ensure that the proper criterion for recommending candidates for initiation be followed . . .

Prabhupāda: That is being done.

Jayatīrtha: . . . and to insure that the . . .

Prabhupāda: The president recommends, or the GBC recommends.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any fixed amount of time that one has to be in the Society to get first, hari-nāma, initiated? Because I . . .

Prabhupāda: That we have already fixed, six months to one year.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Six months to one year. And for brāhmaṇa initiation?

Rūpānuga: One year, you said, after that.

Prabhupāda: No, within one year. That's all. If one, within one year, one does not become to the standard, then he's unfit.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: The recommendation here, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that . . .

Prabhupāda: Generally by the president.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, that the president's recommendation is overseen, is scrutinized, by GBC, so that when Your Divine Grace gets a recommendation, it's been, by someone else, it's been checked. Do you think it's unnecessary?

Prabhupāda: It is.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Unnecessary. Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: If one is not personally sincere, however he is checked . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, so this is unnecessary.

Prabhupāda: . . . then he's useless. Useless.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: In other words, an addition, "directly," directly . . . you know we just have to put down what Prabhupāda . . . directly president can . . .

Prabhupāda: Generally, it is one year after.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Put it down.

Jayatīrtha: Right, right.

Prabhupāda: At least not for . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jayatīrtha, put . . . "Directly goes . . ."

Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, after first initiation, one has to wait one year to get second initiation?

Prabhupāda: Six months.

Rūpānuga: At least six months.

Jayatīrtha: Six months after first initiation. All right. So the next role for the GBC man is to act as the designated representative of Śrīla Prabhupāda to settle all philosophic, procedural disputes which may arise and are not settled at the temple level. In other words, any philosophic question a temple president can't ans . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you . . . eh?

Jayatīrtha: If there's some philosophic question and the temple president can't answer it, then the GBC . . .

Prabhupāda: Then GBC should be consulted. And if the GBC cannot answer, then I'll answer.

Jayatīrtha: Right. Or, if there's some quarrel—one man doesn't like another man, and the temple president can't solve it—then . . .

Prabhupāda: What is quarrel?

Jayatīrtha: . . . the GBC man can solve it.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of quarrel. Quarrel is material.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. But it is the age of quarrel.

Prabhupāda: Quarrel is not good.

Jayatīrtha: The next point is to obtain reports from the temple presidents, financial reports, like this, to see that things are being looked up.

Prabhupāda: The general report should be submitted at least monthly.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. So "To obtain all reports on a timely basis . . ."

Prabhupāda: To the board of the GBC or to the individual, zonal GBC. Yes.

Jayatīrtha: We have kind of a system outlined in here, how reports can be done. It's a technical thing, but . . .

Prabhupāda: But they have that everyone is chanting sixteen rounds, everyone is following the principles, so much money received, so much money deposited in the bank.

Jayatīrtha: Right.

Prabhupāda: "And this is the balance." And these are general things. That's all.

Jayatīrtha: Right. Yeah, we have . . .

Prabhupāda: The financial means what they have collected, what they have spent.

Jayatīrtha: Right.

Prabhupāda: And general reporting, "Yes, everyone is chanting," or "He is not chanting in spite of warning," like that.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is very good.

Jayatīrtha: So we have some guidelines in here about that. So . . . so should I go on with this?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayatīrtha: So then the next thing, besides having a zonal responsibility, a GBC man may have a functional responsibility, like we've already discussed.

Prabhupāda: Functional, main functional responsibility is to go and see that the temple regular work is going on, the president is doing nicely, to check in this way. You can sit down in the class, in the . . . and see how things are going on. That's all.

Jayatīrtha: That's it. Now, one point we've included that we haven't really done before is the idea of establishing committees and individual service . . .

Prabhupāda: Committee, I shall appoint also, if there is any need. Amongst the GBC, I shall pick up some members and make a committee for a particular . . .

Jayatīrtha: For example, we put down that there may be a regional committee.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: Just like in Europe we have a regional committee for managing, I understand . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that regional co . . .?

Jayatīrtha: Isn't it Bhagavān, Haṁsadūta . . .? They can . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have said that Haṁsadūta, Bhagavān and Brahmānanda may . . .

Jayatīrtha: So it's a kind of regional committee for managing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: So we similarly . . .

Prabhupāda: That we can change also. For the time being, it is going on.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I think what Śrīla Prabhupāda has said to us is that if we have very close cooperation, the spirit of committee consultation always exists.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Like if Bhagavān dāsa is in U.S., then Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and Rūpānuga Prabhu will consult with him, like they always consult with each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They should always. And this spirit should go on amongst the twelve. Or if I'm in Tehran, and if there is a financial matter . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't bring politics. Then it will be ruined.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. The spirit should be that you write me and ask me, and I will give you all the service that I can. This should come in us.

Jayatīrtha: For example, in the United States . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not so much, necessarily, committees and formal . . .

Prabhupāda: So if a committee is necessary, it should be decided by the first stage, decided by the GBC, and I'll give final sanction.

Jayatīrtha: For example, one committee that I would propose is in the United States, since we share so many similar problems and so many problems overlap . . .

Prabhupāda: So you . . . no, the GBC is already there. But that is . . . committee is there, the whole committee. But for any special purpose, if committee is required.

Jayatīrtha: Another example of a kind of committee would be some projects. Say . . .

Prabhupāda: Project will be decided by the GBC.

Jayatīrtha: Say, the Gurukula, for example . . .

Prabhupāda: Now I have elected this committee in Europe because the German trouble is going on. When the German trouble is over, there is no need of committee. It is only for this particular purpose because there we have to defend court, we have to see . . . so two, three heads, not one head. One head may be puzzled. Committee means for special purposes. Otherwise, the standing committee, GBC, is already there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as a question . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like I appointed the committee to investigate . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bali-mardana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that committee is not standing. Yet similarly, a committee may be formed for some special circumstances, but otherwise the GBC committee is sufficient.

Jayatīrtha: The main point about that is that the GBC, we all meet together once a year . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. And form all, what is to be discussed, what you are going to do, future. Just like you can discuss the German affairs, and find out how to defend ourselves. Of course, it is in the hands of the lawyer. Still, we can suggest . . .

Jayatīrtha: Take, for another example, there's the ISKCON Food Relief Program. Now, last year we discussed this, but no one was given any specific responsibility for it, and nothing really has been . . . some money has been collected, but nothing major has been done. My idea would be that if there were a committee, say, of two, three men formed who would conjointly discuss and work on these projects, such as this ISKCON Food Relief, then more would get done.

Haṁsadūta: No, I think it's entirely an individual . . .

Prabhupāda: I think this Oath of Allegiance should be signed by the presidents also.

Jayatīrtha: That's nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only the GBC, but the president.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I just want to ask a question. We're in a . . . this meeting right now is concerning ISKCON and the GBC, but are we going to have some kind of meeting regarding the BBT? Because that's a very pressing matter also. Is that going to come in in these discussions, or are we going to have a separate meeting?

Prabhupāda: The BBT I am conducting personally.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you mentioned in Miami . . . this is the reason I'm bringing it up. In Miami we mentioned that we would be discussing at Māyāpur. Something, you know, should be done so that . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that something? The first something is that everyone is complaining that they are not getting books. You just, first of all, do it, how to stop these complaints.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've got to get the books . . . (indistinct)

Jayatīrtha: In India?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: This is the problem.

Prabhupāda: The India is membership, and the members, if they are dissatisfied, then? This is not good. So find out the ways how these complaints can be solved.

Haṁsadūta: So does it mean that the BBT should take charge of the Life Membership program or to see that they're supplied the books?

Prabhupāda: No. Life Membership . . . suppose you make one Life, he has to be supplied books.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So fifty percent goes to the . . .

Haṁsadūta: Book Fund.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the BBT. That is the main purpose, that fifty percent must go . . .

Haṁsadūta: For printing. Fifty percent for printing, fifty percent for building.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. This is the main purpose.

Brahmānanda: But the difficulty is that in India there's no other source of income besides the Life Membership. How they will maintain?

Prabhupāda: What is the . . .? That you discuss.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That you discuss, how these sources, how their maintenance should be. But BBT is already declared. It is meant for two purposes. Now you find out how the sources. That is business of GBC.

Jayatīrtha: That we can discuss afterwards?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: The BBT, that, it should be: how the complaints should be stopped, and if they have no other income, then how things should be managed. That is . . . GBC should discuss.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: In other words, Śrīla Prabhupāda, BBT is not outside ISKCON. BBT is part of ISKCON, and GBC is in charge of all ISKCON. But in this case, BBT, you have your personal attention, so since you are the supreme authority in ISKCON, you will . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, one thing is that sometimes before, Jayatīrtha suggested that if the ISKCON goes to liquidation, then the BBT also will be affected.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is only a legal matter.

Prabhupāda: Legal matter. So I want to protect BBT.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Legally, you will want. But, in fact, GBC is also concerned . . .

Prabhupāda: That you are concerned. You do this—now how to stop these complaints.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now they want to maintain from the GBC income. How this can be avoided, you consider.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It is not something we forget because it's BBT.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But these are the important problems, that the, here in India, the members are complaining. Sometimes they are sending complaining to me. So the first business is how to . . . how the collection from the membership is being dispersed, how the money is being dispersed. Suppose I . . . he is a member. I take him, 222. Then how the money is being spent? So you see first of all that . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a GBC matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is GBC matter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I would like to ask a question. Just like in the . . . now, this is one point to consider. Now, another point is, which we have put off until this meeting, especially to be considered in this meeting, is the moving of the Press. The moving of ISKCON Press. Is that . . .

Prabhupāda: That you decide amongst the GBC.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a GBC matter or BBT matter?

Prabhupāda: No. It is GBC, er, yes, GBC.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The GBC.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I want to see, as the chairman of the BBT, that fifty percent is spent on printing and fifty percent is for constructing temples. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And who sees to that? The GBC?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The GBC.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means, practically speaking, the management . . . the BBT is separate from ISKCON for legal purposes, but the management of it is done by the GBC.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's nice.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: However, at the present, Prabhupāda himself is heading this management.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's heading every management.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: But in this particular case he's heading it very particularly. This is something . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because it's very sensitive issue. It doesn't mean separate.

Rūpānuga: But now, we discussed this . . . we discussed this before, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You said that you didn't . . . you wanted to make some more BBT members.

Prabhupāda: If I require, I can make.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The reason I'm bringing this up is because, heretofore, the BBT has been managed by one or two trustees, and the point is that maybe it is best that it be managed by the GBC.

Prabhupāda: So that . . . first of all manage these things. Then you will . . . it will be included in the trustees. First of all show your capacity that you have managed these things very nicely, these two things. Why there should be complaint? How you can solve it? And why the temples should be maintained by collection of the BBT? It is meant for printing and constructing temples. Why should violate the purpose of the Trust? So first of all you manage these two things. Then, if you want, you can come. If the problem remains the same, then what is the use of increasing heads?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is obvious is that Prabhupāda's interference has always come because we have not done our jobs right.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: He would very much like to . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real purpose.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: He would . . . as soon as we show that we can . . .

Haṁsadūta: Work together.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . work together and manage nicely, he wants to.

Prabhupāda: Now, so far the . . . just like in Germany. They unnecessarily take the money while there is creditor, printer. There was no need of keeping money. Go on paying them. That was my policy. I instructed Karāndhara that whenever there is collection, go to pay. That arrangement I made with Dai Nippon that, "I shall go on paying. You don't ask me." So he never asked me. You know that.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: As soon as there is collection, I paid him, "And you go on printing these books." This should be the policy.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is very important that we understand. This is not common in the karmī world, that Śrīla Prabhupāda does not like credit or playing with money and saving it or something . . . you have a debt, you pay it, you don't create debt. Everything is just very honest and very flowing. This I have to learn myself because this is not the way the business world is, although I do a lot of business. And we all have to see that this policy is followed.

Prabhupāda: This complaint from the members is not at all good. If somebody becomes envious, he can file a suit that "These men have collected money from me, eh, but not supplied books."

Jayatīrtha: They sign a document; we also sign.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: We sign one document when they become a member.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: And they sign also. It's a contract.

Prabhupāda: So this is the first thing, that the GBC maintains here. Immediately the collection is there—fifty percent goes to the BBT account, and fifty percent goes to the printer.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: May I recommend, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that one GBC member, plus GBC India, be appointed to look very carefully into this whole si . . .

Prabhupāda: Be appointed. Do this. Be appointed.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. We will.

Prabhupāda: Yes, do this.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: To investigate this whole . . .

Prabhupāda: Why . . .? Just stop this complaint.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This whole membership program.

Prabhupāda: I am giving you the appointment. Do it.

Haṁsadūta: We can consult with him later.

Jayatīrtha: Jaya. So we'll discuss it and try to find out the details . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Put it in the agenda, this membership plan, immediately.

Jayatīrtha: . . . later on

Prabhupāda: These complaints are not at all good. They have become very serious. Complaint must be stopped. Why they are . . .? Now print cheap edition here and give them books. Sell also.

Rūpānuga: They cannot accuse us of being cheating.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rūpānuga: They cannot accuse us of cheating them.

Prabhupāda: Why there is complaint?

Jagadīśa: So we make the agenda . . . (indistinct)

Jayatīrtha: I have nine points on the agenda so far.

Jagadīśa: What is it?

Jayatīrtha: The . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like Śyāmasundara. He was appointed the BBT member, and what he is doing?

Jayatīrtha: There's been a very high attrition rate on GBC . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: There's been a very high attrition rate on BBT trustees.

Prabhupāda: So this thing should be arranged first of all. Then . . .

Jayatīrtha: So the . . . there are a number of points that require discussion . . .

Prabhupāda: So discuss.

Jayatīrtha: I don't know, necessarily, that it's your desire to have them discussed in your presence or, for example . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I don't want, but if you want, you can . . .

Jayatīrtha: Well, we always love to have your association, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Rūpānuga: What about if you, at least, can approve the agenda?

Jayatīrtha: Yes, that's nice.

Rūpānuga: If you can give us your blessings . . .

Prabhupāda: That you discuss, some of the agenda.

Jayatīrtha: The agenda that we've created so far is . . . the first point on the agenda is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. You said that that should be our first point.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious movement means . . . it is very practical. Because our consciousness is now polluted . . . just like water. Water, originally, crystal clear water. But as soon as it touches the ground, it becomes dirty, muddy. So our consciousness—originally clear, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, "Kṛṣṇa is my eternal master. I am eternal servant." This is real consciousness. Now, since we have come into this material world, we have made, instead of Kṛṣṇa, "My wife is my master, my society is my master, my country is my master, my political leader is my master," so many. So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to purify the dirty things, and then . . . so, to purify this, Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), cleaning the mirror of consciousness, this Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is only way.

Jayatīrtha: Jaya. So that's the first point.

Prabhupāda: That is the first point.

Jayatīrtha: And the next point . . .

Prabhupāda: We should know that our consciousness is now polluted. The . . . exactly like this: Clear water falls down from the sky, and as soon as come in contact with the ground, it becomes muddy. You can take the water again and filter, and then again clear, again crystal clear.

Jayatīrtha: By nature water is clear.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: And sometimes it can become polluted.

Prabhupāda: And the whole devotional service means ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). That is the recommendation of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, cleansing the dirty heart—politically, socially, communally and internationally, nationally . . . in this way, it is all contaminated. So that, that is called upādhi, unnecessary. Just like water. You bring the colored. That is contamination, not crystal. So these are different colors. So you have to strain the water from different colors. Then that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Consciousness is already there. So instead of thinking Kṛṣṇa that, "I am Kṛṣṇa's," I am thinking, "I am my family's. I am my . . . my cat's, my dog's, my nation's, my community's . . ." This thinking is opposite Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And when you simply think that "I am Kṛṣṇa's," that's all. That is all.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Jayatīrtha: So, so the agenda . . .

Prabhupāda: Is that all right?

Devotees: Jaya.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Just applicable to myself, it's very easy to think that, "Now I am in a position of responsibility. I may be most advanced." But what your instruction is that I always think that this position of responsibility requires that I become pure, so I have to be very, very careful. I am not most advanced. I have to . . .

Prabhupāda: That purity process is chanting.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I have to chant very carefully . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . and very seriously.

Prabhupāda: Offenseless.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not that I'm already advanced.

Prabhupāda: Offenseless chanting, that will purify. That is the easiest process, given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . (indistinct) . . . He first of all recommends cleansing the heart. And as soon as your heart is cleansed, then you'll become immediately purified. This is the way. So be always engaged, either in chanting or reading or preaching. Then it will be clarified.

Rūpānuga: It is actually a very easy process.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the easiest process. There is no secondary process. Chanting. And it is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the authority, param vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. So many things will happen.

ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ

śreyaḥ-kairava candrikā-vitaraṇaṁ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam

ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaṁ prati-padaṁ pūrṇāmṛtasvādanaṁ

paraṁ vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam

(CC Antya 20.12)

This is His recommendation. We haven't got to invent something. It is there already. You do it.

Jayatīrtha: So the agenda for the GBC meeting to decide on . . . first of all, Jagadīśa has made one proposal for financing Gurukula, if it has to be discussed.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Financing?

Jayatīrtha: Gurukula is having some serious financial difficulties. So Jagadīśa has made a proposal, which we'll discuss.

Prabhupāda: So everyone's son is there, all devotees' son. So from every center some contribution should be given to the Gurukula.

Jayatīrtha: Jaya. That was my proposal. That becomes a kind of tax.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayatīrtha: In a sense, it's like a school tax.

Prabhupāda: But, at the same time, it should be examined how Gurukula is spending money.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. Jagadīśa has made a complete report.

Prabhupāda: Not unnecessarily spending. That is the duty of the GBC.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, about this tax, about this money to be taken from each temple. Gurukula is one of the projects. For example, there may be another project . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . that Your Divine Grace and group, when you travel, there needs to be also . . . every temple should contribute to that as well.

Prabhupāda: Well, if every temple cannot contribute, I shall manage from the BBT fund. That is not a problem.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: You want . . .? Well, I am using that merely as a . . .

Prabhupāda: And if you can pay, it is all right. If there is deficit, BBT will pay. You don't bother.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. But in this Gurukula project, Śrīla Prabhupāda, temples are having difficulty in paying their debts to BBT already. I don't think they will respond, respond. On one hand, BBT, Rāmeśvara Prabhu is recommending that we reduce the cost of books, and on the other hand, it's being recommended that the tax for Gurukula be collected.

Prabhupāda: No, no, cost of book . . . cost of books?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not cost. Price of books.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, price of . . .

Prabhupāda: Cost of selling price.

Jayatīrtha: That we discussed with you in Dallas, Rāmeśvara and I.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no need. There is no need.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: So what I was . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not a fact that by reducing the price you'll sell more.

Jayatīrtha: No, no. Not reducing the price to the public. Reducing the cost to the temple, so the temple can make more profit.

Prabhupāda: That you can do.

Jayatīrtha: That we discussed with you in Dallas.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: What I am recommending is that, instead of reducing the charge to the temple and then collecting a separate tax, do not reduce the charge to the temple. Whatever reduction you were going to give, give that reduction to Gurukula.

Jayatīrtha: Then that means that BBT is paying.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, BBT is not paying. You're going to give them a reduction. Don't give it to them . . .

Madhudviṣa: That means giving them unlimited money.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: That means giving them unlimited money.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No. Well, for example, let's say I . . .

Madhudviṣa: If I distribute more books, then Gurukula gets more money. Then . . . they don't need all that money.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This . . . this is . . . contribution is better for you.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Separate contribution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: Does that, does that . . . what about those temples that don't have any children there in Gurukula? Because it seems that the problem is not just that . . . there are people besides devotees who are not paying . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they can give.

Jagadīśa: That's part of the proposal. Why not discuss in relationship to the proposal?

Jayatīrtha: Right. We have the whole proposal. Everyone has a copy, I think. So we can discuss that. The main point, I'm just saying now, is to read through the agenda and see if Prabhupāda approves that we're talking about these things, and then . . . because these things are so detailed, and we have some proposals in writing. We can discuss them more. Anyway, so one proposal is Gurukula finance. Another proposal is Brahmānanda's made some proposals about Africa, specifically manpower to be sent to Africa. Another proposal . . . another thing is to discuss the BBT, BBT loans, moving of the Press, several points about BBT, lowering of the prices, these things . . .

Prabhupāda: So what is the advantage of moving the Press?

Jayatīrtha: That Rāmeśvara should be here to say.

Prabhupāda: Call Rāmeśvara. If you be . . . all GBC agrees, then you do that.

Jayatīrtha: All right. So if we have a separate meeting, and Rāmeśvara presents his proposals nicely, and everyone agrees, then we can . . .

Prabhupāda: You consider, and then you decide.

Jayatīrtha: So that's one thing to discuss. Another thing to discuss is Spiritual Sky.

Madhudviṣa: Don't you think that there should be some representatives from the Press at that meeting too?

Jayatīrtha: Yes, they'll be there.

Prabhupāda: Now, the Spiritual Sky . . . I have heard that you are paying two thousand rupees, er, two thousand dollars per month to the accountant, and one thousand dollars to Karāndhara.

Jayatīrtha: Yes, about that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jayatīrtha: Seventeen hundred dollars a month to the accountant, full-time accountant. That is the average price in America for a first-class accountant. Otherwise, we have to hire . . . get Ātreya Ṛṣi to come and do it.

Prabhupāda: And Karāndhara is taking one thousand dollars?

Jayatīrtha: Well, here's the problem, that because it is a business, people must, that work there, have to get regular salary and pay taxes. Otherwise we can get in a lot of trouble. We can get in a lot of trouble. Maybe Bhagavān may know.

Bhagavān: Well, I have the same thing in France. Spiritual Sky is a legal business. That means you have to legally employ people. But I employ the temple people and just take their salary.

Jayatīrtha: Yes. That's all right.

Bhagavān: Do you take Karāndhara's salary?

Jayatīrtha: No, that's a different thing. Anyway, let me finish the point. The point is that legal salary has to be paid, and then taxes have to paid from that. So for example, Karāndhara's salary is not really a good example because he doesn't give fifty percent. But one thousand dollars is the salary.

Bhagavān: Minimum? Minimum salary?

Prabhupāda: No.

Jayatīrtha: That eight hundred, two hundred goes for taxes . . .

Prabhupāda: No our, our . . . that was the . . . formerly, who was managing?

Jayatīrtha: Formerly, I was managing.

Prabhupāda: So you were also taking one thousand?

Jayatīrtha: I was . . . but that was . . . but I was . . . I wasn't taking anything. But that was . . .

Prabhupāda: Then? How . . .? Why he is taking?

Jayatīrtha: Because we were working illegally.

Haṁsadūta: The thing is the whole situation has deteriorated into a karmī business, and no one's making any profit on it.

Jayatīrtha: Well, now, let's . . .

Haṁsadūta: It's just a headache.

Jayatīrtha: That is a . . . that is an unschooled statement, an uneducated statement. It's not a . . .

Haṁsadūta: No, that's not a fact. Where is the advantage?

Jayatīrtha: Anyway, let me finish . . . that's why I don't want to discuss this in front of Prabhupāda, because of argument. Anyway, the next point is that, as far as Karāndhara's salary is concerned . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the Spiritual Sky was contemplated that our gṛhastha bhaktas may be employed . . .

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, but they're not employed anymore.

Jayatīrtha: That's not true.

Prabhupāda: . . . and the bare necessities should be paid.

Jayatīrtha: Right. Well, generally we have about seventeen, eighteen gṛhasthas employed in Los Angeles, and they get much smaller salary, and they, for the most part, they're giving everything over subsistence to the temple as donation. They take out minimum subsistence . . .

Prabhupāda: But Karāndhara is not giving anything.

Jayatīrtha: Well, his point is . . . as you know, he made that unauthorized loan from BBT when he left, for five thousand dollars. And he has to pay it back at three hundred dollars per month. So after he makes . . .

Prabhupāda: Unauthorized loan?

Jayatīrtha: When he left last year, he took loan for five thousand dollars, and he is repaying it at three hundred dollars per month. So after taxes, he gets eight hundred dollars. Three hundred dollars goes to BBT. That's five hundred. Now, with the balance, he supports his wife and children, and his wife is giving donations for Deities and so on. So he is not actually . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that you discuss whether he is . . . otherwise I can give you a very first class man, but he won't charge anything.

Jayatīrtha: Who is that?

Prabhupāda: That I'll not disclose. (laughter) You give him simply, his wife and him, a shelter. He's Indian, I can say.

Jayatīrtha: Oh.

Prabhupāda: And he is qualified man. He can do. Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

Jayatīrtha: But he's not a devotee.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Karāndhara's management is—I mean I'm just looking at it from another view—is worth more than two thousand dollars. So if he is getting only one . . .

Prabhupāda: But your management is not worth five thousand dollars?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mine is worth nothing.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are giving free service? Anyone, all of my disciples, they are qualified. Their service is worth more than any thousands of . . . yes. So why you are maintaining Karāndhara? All of them, they are giving free service. But they are all worthy to take salary, two thousand, three thousand, five thousand . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Karāndhara is only . . . what he's getting is only enough for his maintenance.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: We are being maintained.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Maintenance . . . here, everyone can earn money and maintain him, but here this expense should be sacrifice. The essential is service.

Haṁsadūta: It's his service . . .

Prabhupāda: Service, yes.

Haṁsadūta: It was started for that reason.

Prabhupāda: If we take payment, that is not service; that is business. That is business.

Jayatīrtha: It is, no doubt, a fact that Karāndhara is not giving his full . . . is giving his full life as service. That is a fact. It may be taken . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our organization is to give service.

Haṁsadūta: And then another point in this connection is that when I was in Los Angeles last time, all the people that worked for Spiritual Sky, they were . . . they were starting to fall away because of Karāndhara's karmic attitude . . .

Jayatīrtha: That's . . .

Prabhupāda: So this point you discuss.

Jayatīrtha: (to Haṁsadūta) That problem we'll discuss, and I'll discuss it with you.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are also two reports we don't have here, and we should read those before . . . one is Karāndhara's report, and one is Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu's report, who have investigated this.

Jagadīśa: He's told us to make his report.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hmm? Well, yes, that we have not heard yet. So we should hear and read the . . .

Prabhupāda: All have . . . (indistinct)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . and then discuss this point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your GBC . . .

Jayatīrtha: All right. So that we'll discuss. The other thing we'll discuss is ISKCON Food Relief. And we'll also discuss the complaints about books in India.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the main . . .

Jayatīrtha: So these things we can discuss.

Prabhupāda: . . . how these complaints can be stopped.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: The pledge. Should I read the pledge? I have written it.

Haṁsadūta: What about the situation in Germany?

Jayatīrtha: All right, situation in Germany we'll also discuss.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Put the pledge on the agenda, prabhu.

Jayatīrtha: You want to read that pledge?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: You want me to read it, prabhu?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.

Jayatīrtha: I think so.

Prabhupāda: Everyone may hear.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I . . . the same pledge that the Indian gentleman has written, where it says, Prabhupāda, "I, Mr. So and So, karmī name, initiated name in parenthesis, date of birth, at present residing at, of certain nationality, do hereby solemnly affirm, declare and state as under as follows: I state I have been elected or nominated a member of Governing Body Commission, under the recommendation of my Guru Mahārāja, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, founder and ācārya of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement . . ."

Rūpānuga: Supreme Authority.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Shall I . . .

Satsvarūpa: Yes, Prabhupāda wanted it . . .

Rūpānuga: Ācārya and supreme authority.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's down . . . there as well?

Jayatīrtha: There as well.

Rūpānuga: Everywhere. Everywhere.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Ācārya and . . . of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement under the banner of International Society for Krishna Consciousness. I state that I have imposed all my faith, integrity and honesty in my aforesaid Guru Mahārāja with the result he is the sole responsible person and supreme authority of my present position and status which I have gained and I am holding in the organization of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. I, the said Mr. So and So, both names, do hereby swear in the name of Kṛṣṇa that I will bear true faith and alliance to the constitution, by-laws, rules, regulations and directions which," and this has been added, "which have been given, including four regulative principles . . ."

Madhudviṣa: They should be stated too.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Madhudviṣa: The four regulative principles should be stated.

Prabhupāda: No, that may not be. We know, everyone.

Madhudviṣa: We know it, but does someone else know it?

Prabhupāda: Is it necessary to mention?

Rūpānuga: It's a legal document also.

Bhagavān: Yeah, it should be mentioned.

Prabhupāda: Mentioned? Mention.

Rūpānuga: If it was in parentheses, it would be better for a legal document.

Jayatīrtha: That's not a legal document.

Rūpānuga: It's a legal document. This is a legal document.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "And chanting sixteen rounds very seriously."

Madhudviṣa: Daily.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Daily."

Madhudviṣa: At least.

Brahmānanda: And free from the offenses.

Haṁsadūta: We have to take some . . .

Jayatīrtha: Who's chanting free from the offenses?

Prabhupāda: No, no, don't . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Very seriously" is all I can say.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, do that.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I cannot say "free of offenses," because . . .

Prabhupāda: "Seriously" means without offense.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . I am degraded. " . . . very seriously, or may be given to me from time to time directly, these directions, by my aforesaid Guru Mahārāja, or through his books, or . . ." In other words, direction given, instruction given, directly by him or through his . . .

Prabhupāda: Better "directly."

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No "his books"?

Prabhupāda: No.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not necessary.

Prabhupāda: Because I may give direction according to the time.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Or" means both.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Or" can mean . . . all right. "Or through his commissioners . . ."

Prabhupāda: Direct, direct instruction is important. Just like Kṛṣṇa. In the books He has given many instructions, but then He says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). If one says that, "You gave me instruction before like this. How can I give up this?" so that is not important. The direct instruction is important.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: ". . . to me from time to time directly by my aforesaid Guru Mahārāja, or through his commissioner . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Or through his authorized person or persons, and I shall obey faithfully all such instructions and directions which shall be . . . which shall be binding on me, and that I will uphold the sovereignty and integrity of my Guru Mahārāja, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, and the managing body commission and/or any other body appointed by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda working under the said International Society for Krishna Consciousness. And I shall faithfully discharge the duty upon which I am about to enter or I have already appointed to that effect." Now this is an addition. "I further pledge that His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is the only source of authority, represented by his instructions and books, and I shall follow his instructions . . . I shall follow the instructions of the books . . ."

Madhudviṣa: Only these books.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Only these books," rather than "I will not follow any other book."

Prabhupāda: No, why you'll put? (laughs) This is . . .?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's not . . .?

Prabhupāda: This is required?

Rūpānuga: You mean the part about the books, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rūpānuga: You mean the part about the books?

Haṁsadūta: It's already said that your direct instructions.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is to protect, like, if somebody chanting sixteen rounds . . .

Haṁsadūta: It's redundant.

Madhudviṣa: Well, I thought if someone was chanting sixteen rounds and following the principles and reading someone else's books, like Siddha-svarūpa's people . . .

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, but we've just already read one portion where it says that we will follow direct instructions of Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Haṁsadūta: So again he's repeating it.

Prabhupāda: Instruction, follow that.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: So then it's not necessary about this "only" sort part of . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: What if there is no direct instruction?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't think that part is anymore important.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "I further state that I am holding monies and movable and immovable . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, why he's . . .? He's not holding money, GBC.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: So this I'll take out.

Prabhupāda: No, GBC, practically does not hold any money.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No.

Prabhupāda: Then why you . . .?

Haṁsadūta: You can say, "Any monies or properties under my direction . . ."

Jayatīrtha: That's what it should say.

Prabhupāda: Eh? What is that?

Haṁsadūta: Under, under his direction. Any monies or properties under his direction.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: That would be a separate oath. That would be a separate thing, Prabhupāda.

Haṁsadūta: Maybe that should just be left out, because if we're going to have some legal document like an umbrella, then that will take care of all those things.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, that should be in the pledge, in the agenda.

Prabhupāda: No, no, GBC . . . does GBC members deal with money?

Haṁsadūta: No, he does not personally. He doesn't have anything personal.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean . . .

Brahmānanda: But he puts his signature.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: No, no. Yes. As GBC, we do not deal with money. In other words, if you're dealing with money, it's the temple president.

Prabhupāda: The GB . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Not as . . .

Prabhupāda: The GBC should see that it is being done properly. Why he should . . .

Haṁsadūta: But sometimes it . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . involve himself in the . . .

Rūpānuga: Well, for example, in New York . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . internal management?

Rūpānuga: Well, in New York, for example, I just recently signed with Gopī-jana-vallabha Prabhu the papers on the farm. I signed conjointly with him on the farm because the officers had to sign, and we just recently had a thing in New York ISKCON, Los Angeles, New York.

Prabhupāda: No, no, "sign" another thing. That I have signed, many.

Rūpānuga: So that's all right.

Prabhupāda: The one thing is that GBC's wandering. If the checks are to be signed, then where is the GBC?

Rūpānuga: There's no account, no GBC account.

Prabhupāda: The . . . the money matters should be dealt with the president, secretary and the treasurer, three men. Out of three, two should sign. And GBC's business is to see that things are going on, money matters. That's all. GBC is not supposed to deal directly. He has to inspect. That's all.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: So I can cross this . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like . . . but the thing is, if the GBC and the president is the same man, that is not good. That is not good. The president should be separate. So the president, treasurer and secretary, they will deal directly, and GBC should inspect book, account, that it is done very nicely. That's all. You can question, "Why you have done this?" That's nice. Otherwise, in the . . . it will be difficult to manage.

Rūpānuga: Yes. We don't want to become entangled in that money.

Prabhupāda: Ah!

Rūpānuga: We don't want to become entangled in that money.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: What controls? What controls in the matter of money then?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Madhudviṣa: Who has control of the money?

Prabhupāda: Control means if there is vigilant, I mean to say, examination, inspection, then there is control of money.

Madhudviṣa: Well, let's say someone gives the temple president some money, and he puts in an account with his name and the treasurer's name, and they both conspire and take the money. Then there's no . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do also.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Anyway . . .

Madhudviṣa: Yes, but . . .

Prabhupāda: GBC can do also.

Madhudviṣa: But isn't the GBC supposed to be more trusted than the temple president?

Prabhupāda: Then everyone can do, who has got the . . .

Bhagavān: The BBT trustees did it.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhagavān: The BBT trustees also did it. They took unsanctioned loan from the BBT.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, what about in a case like myself. I'm a sannyāsī, and I have a traveling saṅkīrtana party. So can I handle that money?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm a sannyāsī with a travelling preaching party. So I have no . . . because I am personally seeing to the money, there's no debt on that party. Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: That you decide amongst the GBC. (laughter) Best thing is that don't keep money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I have no money in my name.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you don't . . . you spend the necessary expenditure, and balance money, you give whatever you like.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, yeah. We're doing . . . I meant to say . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda is . . .

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsī is collecting and spending.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: There you have a function of, more or less of a president, as well as the GBC, in that party.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Which is . . . in that case, it has to have GBC approval.

Prabhupāda: So . . .

Jayatīrtha: So we can adjourn for lunch and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can . . . 'till next we meet again.

Jayatīrtha: So the rest of these things we can discuss in . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, yes.

Jayatīrtha: . . . separate meeting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can . . .

Rūpānuga: Jaya. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

(all offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: (aside) Oh, he's not . . . he did not come.

Paramahaṁsa: No, they went and told him to come, and he said: "I'm just now coming." (laughter) (end)