740531 - Conversation A - Geneva
Guru-gaurāṅga: Science and knowledge for man, and it is a manual. And he has an āśrama here. And this is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami. Monsieur Roost does not speak English, so...
M. Roost: I understand a little, but I cannot speak easily.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.
M. Roost: But I want to know from...
Prabhupāda: It is a little technical subject, so translation. We... Our Bhagavad-gītā, there is yoga practice also. So we approve this yoga practice. There is no doubt. And in the Vedic literature it is said, dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ SB 12.13.1 . The yogis, they also sees the Absolute Truth by meditation within the mind. So this process is approved process, and there are divisions. Sagarbha-yogī, nirgarbha-yogī (?). So what is your special subject matter of yoga?
M. Roost: I try to make a yoga with understanding from occident... I saw that occidental people is more intellectual, and I don't understand very easily the karma-yoga. The dynamics and... I don't understand we must work without, without goal, without intention, without personal intention. And I try to show through the practice of haṭha-yoga that posture and prāṇāyāma and concentration. I try to...
Prabhupāda: Beginning from abdomen?
M. Roost: The kind of meditation I learned in India with Swami Satyananda, it's a few different type meditation.
Prabhupāda: They begin from the abdomen, maṇipūraka, maṇipūraka. And then the intestines. They come to the heart; then ultimately, to the brahma-randhra. This practice?
M. Roost: Yes, it's a practice of kuṇḍalinī-yoga, but very, very temperate, moderate. It is not the kuṇḍalinī-yoga with strong prāṇāyāma. It's more a question of conscious of awareness of breathing and...
Prabhupāda: Awareness of?
M. Roost: Breathing. For example, breathing which starts in...
Prabhupāda: Prāṇāyāma, this is prāṇāyāma.
M. Roost: And you must have the conscious of your breathing from rodha to ājñā, and ājñā through the Rājadvāra (?) column to mūlādhāra. This is one example. And it's a general technique of concentration. For example, to...
Prabhupāda: That I already said, dhyānāvasthita, dhyāna avasthita. Dhyāna means meditation, and situated, avasthita. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā, by mind, paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ. So these processes are approved, but they are more or less on the bodily concept of life.
M. Roost: Is according to...?
Prabhupāda: As the karmīs, they are in the bodily concept of life. They are working day and night trying to improve the material condition of life, not only in this life, but also in the next life. They are performing different ritualistic ceremonies for being promoted to the heavenly planet, like that. So they are all karmīs. Either in this world or in the next world, they are called karmīs. So karmī means they want comfort of this body. And the yogis, they are also on the concept of this body. They are identifying this body as designated Brahman, upādhi-brahma, "Brahman with designation." But their central point is this body. That... This bodily concept of life, so long it continues in the form of karma-yogī or dhyāna-yogī, it can give him relief from the cycle of birth and death and merge into the Brahman effulgence. Brahma-sāyujya-mukti, this is called, technically. The jñānīs also. But that is not final. There is still farther. Even there is brahma-sārūpya-mukti, brahma-sālokya-mukti, brahma-sarṣṭi-mukti. So generally, the yogis and the jñānīs, they aim at brahma-sāyujya-mukti, to merge into the Brahman effulgence. But that is not final. Final is bhakti-yoga. After advancing, if the yogi gets the chance of associating with pure devotee and he engages himself in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, that is final perfection.
M. Roost: I think so. But this, the ultimate, is very, very far for European people, I think. It's like in the yoga of Patañjali, it's eight-part.
Prabhupāda: Aṣṭāṅga-yoga, aṣṭāṅga.
M. Roost: Yes, aṣṭāṅga-yoga. The last part of the evolution. I think first we must through the body find the balance. With the balance of our body, we can go after the balance of our ego, of cessation, and after this, perhaps, we are able to sacrifice all to the Lord.
Prabhupāda: Sacrifice for whom?
M. Roost: Yes. Without intention.
Satsvarūpa: The Lord, he said.
M. Roost: Without personal intention.
Prabhupāda: I'll speak.
Satsvarūpa: I'm sorry.
Prabhupāda: Sacrifice. Intention means personal intention. Otherwise, intention to satisfy the Lord, that is required. That is bhakti. We are not intentionless, but purified intention.
M. Roost: And what is your practice? Technically, I think.
Prabhupāda: Yes, technically, it begins with hearing, śravaṇam, to hear about God. Just like Bhagavad-gītā. We hear from God personally.
M. Roost: But with... Through lecture? Through sound?
Prabhupāda: Yes, through sound vibration.
M. Roost: And repeat and...
Prabhupāda: Śabdād anāvṛttiḥ. In the Vedānta-sūtra there is, "By hearing the sound, one becomes immortal." So...
M. Roost: It's like japa-yoga.
Prabhupāda: That is later. That is later on. For beginning you have simply to give submissive aural reception. That is the first beginning. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. Our process is jñāne prayāsam udapāsya. I know something or I can know the Supreme by my knowledge. As I am something, I am very important, our process is to forget this first of all. This is called humbleness, submissive. Generally, the jñānīs, yogis, they are thinking that they can do something by their own endeavor. Our process is different, that "I am limited. My endeavor is limited. My knowledge is limited. So I cannot realize the unlimited by these limited resources." This is our first submission, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya, that "I am limited; I am not unlimited." That's a fact. So how can I know the unlimited by my limited activities? This is our first submissiveness. Just like in the Vedic literature it is stated that Mahā-Viṣṇu, the plenary expansion of Govinda, from His breathing innumerable universes are coming and going. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ [Bs. 5.48] . So we cannot conceive even of this universe. And innumerable universes are coming and going during the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu. And that Mahā-Viṣṇu is the plenary expansion of Govinda. So this is the position of Govinda. So therefore our process is not to try by our limited endeavor to understand the unlimited. This is our first proposal. Better be submissive and hear from the Lord or from the representative of the Lord about Him. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva. Call Nitāi.
jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva
jīvanti san-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām
sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir
ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām
This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's first admission, that this way, one can... Find out this verse. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya.
Nitāi: Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya?
Prabhupāda: It is not in Bhagavad-gītā.
Nitāi: In the Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Nitāi: That's Tenth Canto, Chapter Fourteen.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can find out in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. In the Kṛṣṇa Book we find out when Brahmā is offering prayers to Kṛṣṇa. Brahmā is offered, I think, first part.
Satsvarūpa: This is in English. What would it be?
Nitāi: It would be about the fourteenth paragraph.
Guru-gaurāṅga: We don't know this universe, so there are so many innumerable universes.
Prabhupāda: Fourteenth paragraph, what is written?
Satsvarūpa: Fourteenth is "Lord Brahmā admitted that his birth was from the lotus flower which blossomed from the navel of Nārāyaṇa."
Nitāi: Here it says 10.14.3, the third paragraph.
jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva
jīvanti san-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām
sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir
ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām
Prabhupāda: Jito 'pi. Jito py asi tais tri-lokyām. Where we have explained in English. What is the...? Madhya-līlā?
Nitāi: This is Madhya-līlā, Eighth Chapter.
Prabhupāda: You have got?
Nitāi: Not here. It's in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: No, Eighth Chapter we have translated?
Nitāi: Yes. Manuscript is there in Bombay.
Prabhupāda: No, no. We have published this book up to Eleventh Chapter.
Nitāi: Not published yet, no.
Prabhupāda: What is this book, this Caitanya-caritāmṛta?
Nitāi: That is Ādi-līlā, not Madhya-līlā.
Prabhupāda: Oh, not Madhya-līlā.
Nitāi: No. Third paragraph, it should begin.
Satsvarūpa: The third paragraph of the chapter?
Nitāi: Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad-gītā and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor."
Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is... Especially in the western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma-Purāṇa, there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, statement that "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "Perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No. 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (?). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya CC Madhya 19.140 . In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that 10,000th part of the top of the hair point, is the magnitude of the soul. Our knowledge is accepted in that way, Vedic knowledge. Whatever is stated in the Vedas, that is taken as Absolute Truth and we accept it. And that is fact. If you go to the same point by experimental truth, you will come to the same conclusion. So we think that by experimental knowledge, why should we waste our time? Better take the truth which is already stated in the Vedic literature and build up your farther premises on that basic principle. Just like that small fragment of spirit, 1/10,000th portion of the top of the hair, is there within you, within me, and that is rotating through the air, prāṇa, apāna, vyāna, like that, the vāyu. The yogic process is to capture it. But that is a fact, that the spirit soul is there within this body. It is a fact. So either you try to understand or capture it by the yogic process or you know it, that there is the soul within the body, the result is the same. Therefore you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā at the end of the Sixth Chapter that the bhakta-yogī is the topmost yogi.
yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
mad-gatenāntarātmanā
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
BG 6.47
So naturally, Kṛṣṇa samādhi. If one continues in this attitude, always to be absorbed in Kṛṣṇa... And Kṛṣṇa recommends, "Such person is the topmost yogi."
yoginām api sarveṣāṁ
mad-gatenāntarātmanā
śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ
sa me yuktatamo mataḥ
BG 6.47
So it is confirmed by the greatest authority, and if we practice... This practice can be done in the association of devotees. And that is perfection of life. There are some conditions about self-control: no meat-eating, no fish, no eggs, no illicit sex life, and no intoxication, even smoking, drinking tea, and no gambling. And chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and thinking of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Very easy. And everyone can perform it without undergoing the bodily exercises, which is sometimes difficult for a common man. So one can adopt this bhakti-yoga process and become perfect. And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram BG 8.6 . If one becomes accustomed to this habit and at the time of death, he thinks of Kṛṣṇa, then his life is perfect. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran?
Nitāi:
yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ
tyajaty ante kalevaram
taṁ tam evaiti kaunteya
sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ
BG 8.6
Prabhupāda: Sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ. Yes, this is very important.
Nitāi: "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits this body, that state he will attain without fail."
Prabhupāda: So we are practicing this bhakti-yoga and teaching others also.
M. Roost: And when people are not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to..., when his mind is not prepared to his life what are you doing? How can you educate people to come...?
Prabhupāda: No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to...
M. Roost: Occidental people.
Prabhupāda: They are all occidental.
M. Roost: Yes, yes, you, but very few people. How do you...?
Prabhupāda: Occidental means eastern, er, western? Yes.
Nitāi: Western.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said, "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha, live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa... So generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra. But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible.
M. Roost: I am according, but how to understand, how to measure...?
Prabhupāda: This is plain understanding. Just like physician says that "If you eat these things, then you will not be cured." A physician should straightly speak to the patient, "You should not do this. Then you will be cured." If he does not agree, then he will not be cured. It is like that. If you remain sinful, then you cannot make any spiritual progress of life. That is going on. All the swamis, yogis, and... Don't mind. I have seen. They keep them in the sinful life and talk very, very, big, big words. That will not help. Sinful life must be stopped. Then yoga practice will be successful. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhiḥ. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you are yogi, if you want siddhi, then you must eat and sleep and accept things —yukta. Yukta means "as it is required, not more than that, not less than that." That is yukta. We don't say that you stop. No, we don't say. We give them eatables. We don't say there is no sex life. Sex life is there. But married, simply for begetting children. Otherwise, no sex life. Not for sense gratification. If these things go on... In New York there is a yogi. I do not wish to name his... But in the paper it was published that he was having sex with his disciple. Is it not?
Nitāi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows. What is this? (laughing) Even from moral point of view, a disciple is just like daughter. And this man was having sex life with his disciple. And he's a yogi. Just see. Even he has no moral sense, apart from spiritual knowledge. According to human social constitution, one should not have sex life with daughter, with mother and sister. And what is this? If one has sex life with daughter, then where is the moral life?
M. Roost: I was always interested by Buddhist Zen. I think it's a way, very strong, with a technique which is a little different as yoga. For example, one practical way is les arts martiaux, like aikido, judo, and kendo. I think the approach is very, very interesting, but very difficult to understand.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
M. Roost: It's to go through death by stop one from this sentence that people is afraid of death and is a fast program how to transcend human life, how to transcend la mort.
Guru-gaurāṅga: To transcend death.
M. Roost: How to transcend death. And technically, by practice, kumbha (?), the kumbha, fighting, two persons are fighting, master and disciple...
Prabhupāda: (coughing) Water, little.
M. Roost: To make the problem very, very clear and by fight with arm, sword, is to see what people is able to do in front of the death. Master is coming with an assam, (a sword) and he makes like he will kill the disciple, and disciple must learn to be calm in front of the death. It is so... We can say it's a practice, a psychological practice to...
Prabhupāda: No, why the master will kill the disciple? What is this practice?
M. Roost: No, he don't kill, but he makes like he will kill, but he don't kill. Of course not.
Prabhupāda: That is another...
M. Roost: But it's like a game, we can say, to learn little by little to be the master of our ego, and finally to go through the ego. And I think it's a way, very interesting. But...
Prabhupāda: That is automatically taught in bhakti-yoga. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. It is said, "If you can keep your master pleased, then God will be pleased." Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. And if you make your master displeased, then you are nowhere. These are the teachings of bhakti-yoga. But if the master is such a rascal that if he asks the disciple that "You please me with sex life," then what kind of master he is? Sex life is so strong. In the school, colleges, the teachers having sex life with the students. And yogic process, aṣṭāṅga-yoga, first is saṁyama. Yama, niyama, āsana, prāṇāyāma, pratyāhāra, samādhi, like that. This is against this principle of yama, niyama.
M. Roost: Yes, and first is...
Prabhupāda: I know several yogis, so-called yogis in New York. They are having sex life with the female disciples. I know. I do not wish to name them, but I know them personally. So many. They are taking fees and having sex with the disciple and are yogis. Just see. This is going on. Brahmcārī vrate?
Nitāi: Manaḥ saṁyamya mac-cittaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah, manaḥ saṁyamya mac-cittaḥ: "Always thinking of Me." Viṣṇu-mūrti or Kṛṣṇa-mūrti. Then?
Nitāi: Yukta āsīta mat-paraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yukta āsīta mat-paraḥ: "Always thinking of Me." Then?
Nitāi: Yuñjann evaṁ sadātmānaṁ yogī niyata-mānasaḥ.
Prabhupāda: "In this way one who practices yoga..."
Nitāi: Śāntiṁ nirvāṇa-paramām.
Prabhupāda: "Then he gets śāntiṁ nirvāṇa."
Nitāi: Mat-saṁsthām adhigacchati.
Prabhupāda: Mat-saṁsthām. "Then he is promoted to the Brahman effulgence." That means he surpasses the material existence. Then?
Nitāi: Nāty aśnatas tu yogo 'sti.
Prabhupāda: Ah, nāty aśnataḥ. It is not that you should not eat, abstain, no. Eat very little. So?
Nitāi: Na caikāntam anaśnataḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Not to eat more, not to eat less. Whatever will sustain you, you must eat.
Nitāi: Na cāti-svapna-śīlasya.
Prabhupāda: "Neither sleep very deeply nor sleep less." Then?
Nitāi: Jāgrato naiva cārjuna. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya.
Prabhupāda: Yuktāhāra-vihārasya.
Nitāi:
(yuktāhāra-vihārasya)
yukta-ceṣṭasya karmasu
yukta-svapnāvabodhasya
yogo bhavati duḥkha-hā
yadā viniyataṁ cittam
ātmany evāvatiṣṭhate
nispṛhaḥ sarva-kāmebhyo
yukta ity ucyate tadā
Prabhupāda: These are the actual yoga practice. They are all described in the Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. (end)