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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

731210MW-LOS ANGELES - December 10, 1973 - 62:14 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . theologician.

Prajāpati: Śrīla Prabhupāda, throughout the Western theology, there is a conception of the wrath of God, God's anger at man's disobedience or his unwillingness to follow God and live by God's commandments.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prajāpati: But in our literature we find Kṛṣṇa has some transcendental pastimes of anger, but that He does not . . . it is man's own reaction . . . activities, that bring upon his destruction. How are these two . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. All the qualities that we find within this material world, all of them must have come from God. If there is wrath within this material world, it must have come from God, because God is the origin of everything. That is the Vedānta-sūtra. Brahman, Absolute Truth, means the source of everything. Whatever you have got experience within this material world, everything is there in God. That is perfection of God. You cannot say, "This thing is not in God." So aiśvaryasya samagrasya (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47).

Everything is there. Just like Kṛṣṇa stealing as a child. But apparently sometimes He does something which is not very moral. So this immorality, the so-called immorality, it is there also. That is the full conception of God. He's not lacking in anything. Under the circumstances that God is in wrath, that is correct. But that is not His only characteristic. He has got mercifulness also. Everything is there. That is God. Therefore as theologician, you should understand the correct conception of God. They have no complete conception of God. Now, God is described in the dictionary as the Supreme Being. Is it not?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Everyone agrees on that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: Everyone agrees on that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the conception of "Supreme"? That you have to define. What is the conception of Supreme? How do we accept here in this world a person supreme? What is the conception of supreme? No . . .

Prajāpati: No one equal to or greater than.

Prabhupāda: No, that you cannot find here in this material world. Anyone has relative position. Everyone will find somebody is greater than him, somebody is lower than him. He's not absolute. Nobody. A rough estimate of supremacy: if one man has got . . . is very rich, he's considered great. If he has got influence, if he has got bodily strength, bodily beauty, wisdom or renunciation . . . these are the six items for calculating a man's greatness. Therefore when you speak, "God, the Supreme," He must possess all these things. That is the definition given by Parāśara Muni. The other day we were discussing. Somebody said: "This is all imagination." Why imagination? Who was telling me?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientist.

Prabhupāda: Scientist. (laughs) So how . . . why it is imagination? Your idea of supremacy, you must define. How do you accept here in this material world a person as supreme? Why? Why you accept Nixon as supreme person within your state? What is the cause?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because he has some power.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes.

Karandhara: He's elected.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he's elected, that is same. But his position is supreme. Why he's supreme? As government servant, he gets the highest salary, he has the, all the best facilities, amenities, and his order is final. In this way . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He has the command of convincing others.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He has the power or the command of . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you may not agree with him; still, you have to accept him. That is his supremacy. You may not agree with him, but because he's supreme, you have to accept his order. That is his position. It does not depend on your acceptance or not acceptance. That is supremacy. Is it not?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You cannot say: "Mr. President, I don't agree with you; therefore I shall not accept your order." No. You have to, you agree or not agree. That is supremacy. So when we judge the supremacy from material standpoint of view, we find that these things are the symptoms of supremacy. So all these symptoms must be in full extent in God. That is Supreme Person. God is great. God is the supreme controller. How He's supreme controller, so these are the symptoms. Therefore the definition of God given by Parāśara Muni:

aiśvaryasya samagrasya
vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyāḥ
jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva
ṣaṇṇāṁ itī bhaga ganā
(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

From Bhagavān, the other word is bhāgyavān. Bhāgyavān means fortunate. One who has got the symptoms of supremacy, he's called fortunate. The supreme fortunate is God. Lakṣmī.

Lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānam (Bs. 5.29). Here we are begging little favor of goddess of fortune, but Kṛṣṇa is always worshiped by many thousands of goddess of fortune. That is Kṛṣṇa's position.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then how fortunate He is, is beyond our thinking capacity.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Because . . . therefore acintya. How great He is, how great fortunate He is, that you cannot think of, you cannot estimate. That is called acintya. Acintya means I cannot conceive, I cannot estimate. Not only I; any big personality within this universe. Just like Brahmā says: "The others may say that he knows You, but so far I am concerned, I do not know You." That is inconceivable. Brahmā, the greatest personality within this universe, he also admits that "Others may say that he knows what You are, but from my personal experience, I say I do not know anything." We can simply partially see. Parāsya śaktiḥ.

Just like we are seeing this material nature, partial exhibition of His potencies. This is one of the potencies, but He has got many potencies. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). This material nature is only . . . this is also inferior potency. Apareyam. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This material nature is made of earth, water, air, fire, ether, mind, intelligence, ego. All these eight elements are separated inferior energy, and how much superior energies He has got. The superior energy is supposed to be the spiritual world, manifestation of the spiritual world. So if in the inferior material energy there are so many wonderful things, just imagine how much greater important wonderful things are there in the spiritual energy, which is called superior.

Hṛdayānanda: With all varieties.

Prabhupāda: Must be variety. If in this inferior nature there are so many varieties, so how many superior varieties are there, that you can simply think of. That is acintya. Even in this material world, there are different planets. One planet is superior than the other planet. The inhabitants of one planet are far, far superior than other planets. Just like there is a planet which is called Siddhaloka. Here, in this planet, people practice mystic yoga for getting so much wonderful power. They are naturally . . . here also we see. Just like if I want to fly, I cannot. But another, small bird, he'll fly. Is it not? I . . . if I have to live within the water, I have to make so much arrangement. But a small fish is in the big ocean; he's living there. Yes.

So . . . but because one bird is flying in the sky without any machine, it does not mean that he has become superior to me. But comparatively I see it has got superior power. So these varieties are there. You cannot deny it. So similarly, as in this planet we are trying to get some mystic power by yoga practice, there, in other planets, it is automatically there. They do not require any machine from going one planet to another. They can simply, by will, they can go. Even in this yog . . . in these material planets, this planet also, there are yogīs, they take the early in the morning bath in four places—at Jagannātha Purī, at Rāmeśvaram and . . . what is called, Haridwar?

Devotee: Benares.

Prabhupāda: At four dhāmas, and Dvārakā. Eh?

Karandhara: Rishikesh?

Prabhupāda: Rishikesh, yes, that is Haridwar. So one yogī friend was coming to my father. He said that . . . he said that, "I went with my Guru Mahārāja." They simply sit down and touch Guru Mahārāja, and after few minutes, he's in Dvārakā. This is . . . this is yogic power. What your aeroplane will do? Just like Durvāsā Muni, he traveled all over the universe, up to the Vaikuṇṭhaloka, within one year. But according to modern calculation, they say, with light year, in forty thousand light year we can approach to the highest planet. Is it not? If they want to go to the topmost planet, how much . . . how many years it will take? Is there an estimation? But, so far I know, I heard it that, someplace . . . they have estimated it will take forty thousand leap year. Now, leap year is beyond our calculation. What is called, leap year? Light year.

Hṛdayānanda: Light year.

Devotees: Light year.

Prabhupāda: Light year.

Hṛdayānanda: The speed of light.

Prabhupāda: Light year. That is beyond our estimation. And that, such forty thousand. But it is just in your front. We see so many stars out there. You cannot go. Even if you can go, are you going to live for forty thousand light years? So what is your power? Why you are so much proud?

Karandhara: They have a theory that if they can get a . . . if they can get a machine to go at the speed of light . . .

Prabhupāda: That, that is their . . . that is rascaldom. They will say like that, but nobody has become able, neither they are able.

Karandhara: They say they can stop time.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: They say if you travel at the speed of light, time stops.

Prabhupāda: Time stops . . . anyway, nobody has gone. They have gone to the nearest planet, they say. I do not know whether they have gone at all. (laughter)

Yaśomatīnandana: You don't think, Prabhupāda, they have reached the moon?

Prabhupāda: No. There are so many invisible planets. Not that all the stars and planets you can see. Just like Rāhu planet. That is not seen. And when the Rāhu planet passes through, that is eclipse. But they describe in a different way. Actually, it is the Rāhu planet which passes before the sun and moon, and there is eclipse. There are so many questionable things of the theory that . . . the eclipse theory of the modern view. That is not correct according to Vedic theory.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The eclipse?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the science proves it.

Prabhupāda: Science proves everything. (chuckles) That is their nonsense. They, amongst their community, they have proved everything except what he is, he does not know. Except that thing, what he is, he does . . . he does not know. And why he dies, he does not know. That is his knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make a model of the universe . . .

Hṛdayānanda: They use . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They make a model of the planets, of the movement.

Prabhupāda: They can make everything, but why, why don't you make a sun, imitation sun, so that so many electricity lights can be saved? But these rascals say everything, but cannot do anything. (laughs) That is their position. They can model a universe. First of all make a model of moon like this, so that in the dark night we won't have to spend so much money. Now there is energy shortage, but they cannot do anything. Still, they'll speak big, big words. That's all. Simply to take money from the taxpayer.

Why do they not manufacture a imitation moon so that we can save the electric energy? Imitation sun, imitation moon. They know the composition of the moon, the composition of the sun. Why do they not make? Simply talks. And fools are befooled by their words. Where is that power? Now in the Vedic literature it is described: yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ (Bs. 5.52). Unlimited temperature. This is creation of Govinda. You create something like that so that in, what is called, Iceland, just have aśeṣa-tejāḥ . . . eh?

Karandhara: Greenland.

Prabhupāda: Greenland, yes. So that these people may be saved from so much cold. And what power you have got? Aśeṣa-tejāḥ. You create something, some unlimited temperature. You cannot do that. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ. But God has created. Not only one; many millions of suns are there. So what is your power, you are challenging God? This is called acintya. You cannot conceive even how it is made possible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda, what is the Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . last night Śrīla Prabhupāda was mentioning about the . . . (indistinct) . . . explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was giving the example that the, the jewel, gem, cintāmaṇi, it produces so many other jewels, but it remains as it is. That is pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). God, by His . . . here, just like energy, the petrol energy is now being finished. Finished. But what is the petrol there in the sun? It is never finished. But this is also material. So find out what, what is that source of . . . now, after hundred years, your stock is finished now. There is problem now, how to drive your motorcar. But here, the sun, aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ. The moon is giving light.

Nobody can calculate from where the moon is situated, created, and it is spreading light, the sun is . . . light is there. It is material. You find out. Therefore it is called parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8, CC Madhya 13.65, purport). His energy is unlimited. He can create millions of sun. He has already done it. But still, He's the same. Nothing is lost in His energy. That is God. That is acintya-śakti. Here you have got some money. You spend it. Next day it is all zero. So God never becomes zero. That is God. These rascals, they say ultimate truth is zero, śūnyavāda. They do not know. God is never zero. He's always positive.

So you must have a clear idea of God, you theologician. You take all these ideas from Vedic description. Don't be misled by fools and rascals. Here is the God—full energy. There is no loss of energy. That is God. Our energy is lost, just like I have lost my youthful energy. So God is not like that. That is the difference between God and me. I cannot walk so swiftly or eat more, or so many other things as a young man can do, because I have lost my youthful energy.

But God is always youthful. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣaṁ nava-yauvanaṁ ca (Bs. 5.33). This is definition of God, that He's the oldest person. Because He's the original person, He must be the oldest. But nava-yauvanaṁ ca, but He's always youthful. That is God. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam. He has got millions and millions . . . just like īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe . . . (BG 18.61). He's staying within the atom, within your heart and everywhere. But still, He's one. That is God. Advaitam acyutam. Advaita means without any duality. Not that because He's living within your heart and within my heart, these two personalities are different. No. They are one. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā, yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra (BG 6.30). One who can see that although God is everywhere, even within the atom, but still, He's one—that is vision of God.

Prajāpati: In some Western theological literature, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it refers to . . . that, "God is love." In what sense . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I have already explained. What is not God? That is already explained. Anything you bring, He is . . . God is there. Without God, nothing can exist. So why this or that? Anything, that is God. But He's absolute. His love and His enmity, that is the same thing. We distinguish, here in this material world, "This is love and this is animosity." But God's animosity and God's love—the same thing. That is acintya. Here in the relative world we cannot adjust how animosity and love can be the same, one and the same. That is acintya, inconceivable by us. But God's love . . .

Just like God's love for the gopīs and God's enmity for Kaṁsa, they're reaching the same result. Both of them are going to the spiritual world. Just like Pūtanā and Mother Yaśodā. Pūtanā came to poison Kṛṣṇa, and Mother Yaśodā is always anxious to save Kṛṣṇa, "Naughty child, He may not be hurt." So two opposite things. But both of them got the same result. Kṛṣṇa thought that "I have sucked his (her) breast, so she is My mother. She must go to the same destination as Yaśodā-mā." Just see. That is His enmity. And that is absolute.

In our relative world, we can see so many differences in the dealings of God, but He is absolute, one. That is conception of God. Advaita. Advaita. Advaita means absolute. And . . . brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). Again advayam. You may conceive God as impersonal or localized Paramātmā or Bhagavān—the same thing. But due to our, I mean to say, meager knowledge, we are thinking . . . somebody's thinking that His personality is greater than impersonality, and somebody's thinking impersonality's greater than personality. This is our conception. He's the same.

Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam. Not different. Not different. But one who has reached to the conception of personality, he has got all the others. That is the difference. So you write. You are theologician. You write about God so that people may understand how our students are enlightened. Other so-called foolish theologicians may learn from you. You take the ideas and explain.

Sudāmā: Most people, Śrīla Prabhupāda, have difficulty accepting that God has an animosity.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Sudāmā: Most people have difficulty accepting that God has an animosity.

Prabhupāda: But he has got so many difficulties because he's diseased rascal. So he has to be treated. But his only fault is that he doesn't want to be treated. He's a diseased person, but he doesn't want to be treated. When he's treated, he'll understand. But he doesn't agree to be treated. That is his fault. A tuberculous patient, he doesn't want to be treated, but if he's treated, he can be brought into healthy state. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is treating all these rascals and fools, because all of them are born rascals. This is our judgment. Not . . . Śāstra's judgment. Abodha-jāta. Jāta means born, born rascals. Everyone is a born rascal unless he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our . . . our propaganda should be like that. We can call anyone rascal and fool if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious.

So what is the value of rascals and fools? He may say something; he may say something. Just like a madman: He may speak so many things, but who values his word? Everyone knows that he . . . a child, he speaks so many things. Who cares for it? Similarly we must know, anyone who's not Kṛṣṇa . . . he's a madman. He's empowered by this illusory energy. He talks all nonsense. So our should be that, "If you want to understand, then you come to this position. Then you'll understand. You must be educated." Your belief and not belief or acceptance, who cares for them? Now, this sky is there. Everyone has seen. The experienced man says, "Now, this side is sun." And if somebody says, "Why not this side?" so who cares for this version? You rascal, you may say like that, but it is a fact, this side is sun. One who knows, he can say. One who does not know, he'll argue, "Why not this side? Why you are so bigot that the sun is coming from this side? It may come this side also." This is all nonsense.

Upadek . . . upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā recommends, tad-vijñānārtham . . . now . . . what is that? Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You must go to a person, surrendering, not with your naughty behavior, "Why this? Why that?" First thing is surrender. You must approach a person . . . surrender. The first thing is praṇipātena. Then you question. Unless you have surrendered, you have no right to question. What is the meaning of such question? Simply waste of time. If you surrender to a person, and whatever answer you get from him, you'll accept, that is called surrender. So find out such person, first of all, that you can surrender there and you'll accept whatever he says. That is guru. Tad viddhi praṇipātena. First thing is praṇipāta, surrender. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender."

These rascals are puffed up with false knowledge. Therefore their first business is to surrender, "Rascal, you surrender." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Without surrendering, he remains a fool because he's puffed up with false knowledge. Just like the so-called scientist, the philosopher, they think, "Oh, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" But they do not know that they are in the fool's paradise. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena. If you have surrendered, then you can ask some question, paripraśnena. And sevayā. That paripraśna should not be challenge. By sevā, by service. This is our process. We must find out guru, we must satisfy him by service and surrender unto him. Then guru will explain. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. He knows everything. He'll explain. This is our program.

yasya deve parā bhaktir
yathā deve tathā gurau
tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ
prakāśante . . .
(ŚU 6.23)

This is the process of understanding. But sometimes we mistake. One who has not seen the truth, we approach him and accept him as guru. Then we are baffled. Jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ. You must approach a guru who has seen the truth. Then surrender unto him. Then serve him. And then make question. Everything will be revealed. These are the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. They'll not surrender. They'll not serve. They cannot find out who has actually seen. So many difficulties. Therefore they are cheated. They go to this man, that man, Maharishi, Dr. Mishra, this, that. Therefore they are cheated. They do not know. This is the position.

Govardhana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one time a boy came to our temple. He chanted and took prasādam, became very blissful, purchased Bhagavad-gītā to study.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Govardhana: And then he went away for one week and associated with some Christians, and they convinced him that he had committed a great sin, that he should come to the temple and destroy the Deity. So after dancing and chanting in ecstasy, taking prasādam and reading Bhagavad-gītā, he returned to the temple one week later and tried to destroy the Deity.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Govardhana: Detroit.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he attempted it?

Govardhana: Yes, but we prevented him.

Prabhupāda: So we must be careful. There may be so many fanatics.

Govardhana: That shows that because he was not in the constant association of devotees that he lost those qualities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ (BG 2.62). So why did you not arrest him and give to the police?

Govardhana: We did. We beat him, then we took him to court and had him put in jail for three months.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Yes.

Govardhana: But how is it that he was coming and becoming enthusiastic about Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: . . . coming, but he was interrupted by another rascal. He was advised by another rascal.

Govardhana: So one has to guard against being interrupted in that way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the first thing is that you, this, "You shall not eat meat, you shall not do this, do that, do this . . ." People are generally sinful, especially in the Western countries, because they are all addicted to these habits. So he can be polluted very soon. Very soon he can be polluted. He's prone to pollution by nature.

Govardhana: There are many people who come like that to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They seem to experience a taste, and then they go away and everything seems to be lost. What is their . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they . . .

Govardhana: . . . position, if they are not able to stick to it?

Prabhupāda: Just like a disease. Somebody cures very quickly, somebody cures . . . takes some time, according to the, what is called, acuteness of the disease. Somebody dies; somebody falls down. It is a treatment. Just like some of our students in Hawaii, due to bad association they've fallen down. But whatever sincere service one has given, that will never be lost. That's a fact. It will again revive. For the time being, as it is said by Arjuna, kāla-karma-tamo-ruddhaṁ (SB 1.15.30). Just like the sky is clear. It may be covered immediately by some cloud. And again the cloud is removed, the sky is clear. So this māyā is just like cloud. It comes. Where the temperature is very high, the cloud does not come. All depends on the circumstances.

Sudāmā: Now, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Kṛṣṇa has sent you here to teach us this art of surrendering.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sudāmā: Now you have told us to first of all surrender. So as your students, we are trying to hear in that way. Now when we go and preach and we tell . . . if we tell a man, "First of all, you surrender before you'll be able to understand," then what, what question is there of preaching?

Prabhupāda: They have already surrendered. They have already surrendered. When they have come to hear you, that is a symptom of surrender. Otherwise, why does he waste his time? There is little bit surrender. Full surrender and partial surrender. When one agrees to hear you, that is partial surrender.

Sudāmā: Even there may be some argument, but we must be fixed up enough to convince him to surrender more.

Prabhupāda: Actually, at the present age, nobody is interested in spiritual subject matter. Nobody is interested. So nobody is coming to surrender to you. Therefore you have to canvass, "Please surrender. Please surrender." This is our position. Otherwise, the . . . tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). One should come to the guru. But nobody comes to the guru, therefore guru has to come to USA to canvass. This is the position. Nobody went to me in India, but I had to come here to canvass you. Because it is Kali-yuga.

Real process is one should go to the guru. But intelligent man goes, "My life is meant for spiritual realization. So I must find out a guru." That is his business. But people are so fallen in this age that nobody's interested in that subject matter, that he has got spiritual value and he has to achieve this knowledge and make his life perfect. Nobody knows it. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught preaching. These rascals, they are so fallen, they'll never search out guru. So guru should go and canvass.

Sudāmā: Therefore you are jagad-guru.

Prabhupāda: I may be whatever it is, but that is the business.

Govardhana: You are so kind that your books are attracting so many. They have the same potency as yourself. Your canvassing is so effective, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught us . . . even Nityānanda Prabhu, Haridāsa Ṭhākura, they were sent: "Go and preach. Go door to door, teach them Hare Kṛṣṇa." And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally did it. So our mission is like that. People are so rascal that they'll never come to guru and surrender. Manda. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). They are so much embarrassed with these material calamities. Upadrutāḥ. Upadrava means disturbances. And manda: by nature very rascal. And sumanda. If there is, if there is little intention, they goes to this, what is called, this boy?

Devotees: Guru Maharaj-ji?

Prabhupāda: Guru Maharaja, Dr. Mishra, and this and that, they'll go. They'll not go to the real person. The real person is strict. Suppose somebody comes here, if he comes to me, I shall immediately order, "You have to do this." But these rascals, they do not say that. They, "You pay me, and you become perfect." That is their proposal. So your money is very cheap. They pay and flock together. That is going on. That is called sumanda-mataya, misled. Manda, by nature they are rascals, and if they take some path, that is sumanda-mataya, again rascaldom. Why?

Manda-bhāgyā, unfortunate, disturbed. They cannot find out. Therefore real guru has to canvass. This is the position. Short age, alpāyus; they are not going to live for many years, and most of them are unfortunate rascals, and if they are eager to accept a guru, they accept a false guru, and they are materially disturbed. This is the position of the people of this age. So against so many disturbances and counter-facts, we have to preach.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it, is it also not the mercy of Kṛṣṇa that He has descended to implicate(?) and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore guru is called the Kṛṣṇa's mercy-incarnation. Kṛṣṇa's mercy-incarnation is guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Kṛṣṇa is so merciful, He's trying to educate from within, and outside He sends His representative to teach. So He's trying to bring all these living entities back to home, back to Godhead. Two ways: from inside and outside. His propaganda is going on. His propaganda is going on.

Govardhana: You are just like the reservoir of mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: No, mercy reservoir is Kṛṣṇa. But we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. We have to abide by His orders. That's all. Real mercy is Kṛṣṇa's. (break)

Prajāpati: . . . in the Bible, there's a story of how some cities named Sodom and Gomorrah became so sinful that the Lord wanted to destroy those cities and everyone in them. Will this be happening again sometime, cities become so sinful they will be just destroyed?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Destruction means sinful. If you become sinful, your body will be destroyed. You'll die out of some disease. Sinful means destruction.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Self-destruction.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Self-destruction.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate . . . (BG 8.19) (break) . . . if somebody dies out of Kṛṣṇa's anger, he also goes to Vaikuṇṭha.

Hṛdayānanda: Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this Hiraṇyakaśipu's mother, when she understood that his (her) son should be so rogue and then, when she was informed that "After all, your sons will be killed by God," she was very satisfied, "Oh, then it is all right. Never mind." Because she knew, killing by God means he's going to Vaikuṇṭha. Just like cursed by Nārada Muni, Yamala-Arjuna, they saw Kṛṣṇa. By cursing of Nārada, although for some time they had to remain as tree, but still they got the opportunity of seeing Kṛṣṇa.

Hṛdayānanda: Dāmodara.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Dāmodara.

Devotee: Everybody is concerned with peace. Do people like Guruji because they're such rascals?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: Like Guruji, this young boy, do they constitute a threat to peacefulness in society?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Disturbance.

Devotee: Disturbance?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they do not believe in the śāstras, they are rascals, creating disturbance. The Guruji's group, they say: "There is no need of books." Do they not say like that?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore simply set of rascals.

Hṛdayānanda: Actually, Prabhupāda, in the beginning, in the beginning they used Bhagavad-gītā, but when we kept defeating them, they said: "All right, no more books."

Prabhupāda: Oh. Just see.

Hṛdayānanda: But in the beginning, they accepted. Then they changed.

Prabhupāda: They will change so many times, because they're rascals. They have no standard program. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī has given his verdict in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:

pañcarātra-vidhiṁ vinā
aikāntikī harer bhaktir
utpātāyaiva kalpate
(Brs. 1.2.101)

Any kind of spiritual advancement without reference to the Vedas, Purāṇas and śāstra, it means simply disturbance. Utpātāyaiva kalpate.

Hṛdayānanda: You quoted that to Professor Stahl.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what do you think about the so-called primordial flux?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The primordial flux, they call it. That nature has supplied such nice samples, elements, like potassium, argon, and this . . .

Prabhupāda: Everything is natural . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . they call radio-active elements.

Prabhupāda: Everything is natural. What you have produced? Everything is natural production.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, based on these elements, they calculate, they can calculate, they say very exactly the . . . how old the earth is. How old is the . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We know how old the earth is.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: How old it is?

Prabhupāda: Just like earth is at the beginning of Brahmā's life. Now Brahmā's life, you cannot calculate even one twelve hours. So how you'll calculate? He has to live for a hundred years. So now, at the present moment, if his . . . one day's calculation is midday now, at the present moment.

Yaśomatīnandana: This is, is this the later half of his life?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśomatīnandana: Is this the later half of Brahmā's life?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is advancing, means he's going to die later on. Not only Brahmā; every one of us.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they calculated it's only 4.5 billion year old, the earth.

Prabhupāda: Let them calculate. But who cares for that? They cannot calculate even one day of Brahmā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we do not accept this?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We do not accept this.

Prabhupāda: How can I accept it? Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17): "The Brahmā's one day is equal to one thousand combination of yugas." The combination of yuga means forty-three hundred thousands of years. So such thousand times makes Brahmā's one day of twelve hours. Similar period, his night. Then day and night, it becomes full twenty-four hours. Then such thirty twenty-four hours makes one month.

Such twelve month makes one year, and such hundred years he will live. So how you can calculate? It is beyond your arithmetical calculation. We have to go through the śāstras. So this is in one universe. And there are millions of universes and millions of Brahmās. And all of them live, taking the advantage of one exhaling of Mahā-Viṣṇu. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). All these Brahmās. So just see. How you can calculate? That is inconceivable. That is inconceivable.

Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, can't think of it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is their mathematical equation, where these elements fall very uniformly, the law, the natural law, the physical law.

Prabhupāda: No, that is already there, we know. What is the new discovery?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So then, putting this physical law then, it fits everything.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Equation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this, this, this whole material world is going on under physical law. That is called guṇamayī. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Everything is going on . . . it is exactly . . . yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ (Bs. 5.52) . so it is . . . just like the sun is also rotating in its orbit, sixteen thousand miles per second, but it has got a fixed time, how long it will rotate, by the order of the Supreme. This is physical law. And when, when He wants, everything will withdraw. All physical, finished.

Hṛdayānanda: Īśa.

Prabhupāda: Law means law-maker. So they do not know who is the law-maker. That is the difficulty.

Sudāmā: In Japan, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a cherry tree that usually in the springtime it gives off flowers. So about three . . . two years ago, in the middle of winter, this tree gave off all flowers. All the scientists, everyone was running: "It is not time. It is not time. It is not the season. Why is it giving the flowers now?"

Prabhupāda: Therefore the best education, scientific advancement, is to recognize God behind everything. That is perfection. We are canvassing, "Accept God. Accept God." But if the modern scientist, philosopher, they present, "Yes, here is God," by calculation, then people will take it more seriously: "Oh, the scientist is saying." That is wanted. We are fighting with the scientists and others because they do not accept God. That is their fault. Otherwise, they are friends. They are giving more stress on the physical laws, nature, but they do not know under whose indication the physical laws are working, the nature is working.

That they do not know. Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. It is the . . . in Vedic literatures it is said, chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44). The nature is working just like shadow, shadow of God. Just like master says, "Go there," immediately the servant goes there. So the servant is not independent. By the indication of the master, goes there. So that is nature. And because the arrangement is so perfect . . . just like you said: "Out of season, the flowers came out." So they cannot explain. The arrangement is so perfect that God desired, "Now there, let be these flowers," and nature immediately produces. The arrangement is so perfect that these people, they cannot understand. They become amazed, "How it happened?"

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is called acintya.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everything is acintya. No scientist can explain anything, even a straw, what is the constitution of the straw. They cannot do.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cellulose, they'll say. They'll say this is cellulose.

Prabhupāda: But they cannot produce. That is the difficulty. They'll speak all nonsense but cannot produce. No experiment; simply theoretical observation. That's all. So observation is not perfection of science. You must produce it by experiment. Then it is perfect. Two departments.

Hṛdayānanda: So if you can produce something, that means you actually understand it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that it is a combination of such-and-such chemicals . . . just like these rascals say: "Life . . ." Now he said that "You take the chemicals. Can you produce?" He said: "That I cannot say." You see? Avoiding the issue. This was discussed in the meeting. What is that gentleman?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Professor Stanley Miller. He's from San Diego, physicist.

Prabhupāda: Miller. Yes, he has got Nobel Prize. And his theory is that from chemicals, life has begun. So he said in the meeting that, "If I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" He said: "That I cannot say." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize. Just see. He has no clear idea; still he has received the Nobel Prize.

Prajāpati: Number one speculator.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Prajāpati: They're giving prize to the number one speculator.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. Jugglery of words. That's all. Speculation means jugglery of words. Just like doctors prescribe. They give the medicine, and then water mixed. So they will never say "water," because ordinary people will understand. They'll write "aqua distillata," so ordinary man cannot understand whether it is water or medicine. But that is water. But they'll . . .

So these scientists, they'll manufacture some word which you cannot understand . . . "Vyāghra mane śārdūla." One student asked the teacher, "What is the meaning of vyāghra ?" He said, "Śārdūla." It is still difficult. You see? This is going on.

Prajāpati: Most theologians, they write like that, also, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their business. Because they want to cheat people, they'll manufacture some words which they cannot understand, and they'll be: "Oh, very nice. How nice word it is."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Therefore they're called genius. One can make some . . .

Prabhupāda: A genius for the fools. They are genius for the fools, not for the person.

Yaśomatīnandana: They say . . . in Hindi it is said: duniya jhukti hain jhukane wala cahiye (Hindi: The world bows, need a person to bow it.)

Prabhupāda: Ah, (Hindi: Yeah it is right.)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When Śrīla Prabhupāda goes, we are going to miss this morning walk.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh? (laughs)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are going to miss this morning . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you remember, you manipulate, you expand it. That is your business.

Hṛdayānanda: Boy, they're so enlightening.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. All glories to Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. All glories to the assembled devotees. (end)