731104 - Conversation - Delhi
Prabhupāda: But suppose you are different...
Guest: But, but...
Prabhupāda: He is Christian, she is Mohammedan, she is Buddhist. Secular government means government should give protection to the Hindu, to the Muslim, to the Christian, to the Buddhist. But it is the government's duty to see that no one is cheating.
<PS:Lecture>(Prabhupāda and guests converse in Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Government's duty to see that people may not become cheated. (Hindi) Let me speak in English, so they can follow.
Guest: So they can follow.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Take for example a man is representing himself as brāhmaṇa but he's doing something else. That should be stopped. You are doing the business of a śūdra , why you are claiming as brāhmaṇa? This is government duty.
Guest: Now say this person who is doing wrong(?)...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: ...is very touchy about his being śūdra?
Prabhupāda: No, why he should be?
Guest: No, but he thinks that all of us look down upon him. So one has to be very careful. And I think that if you could say something about the real Harijana.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that I'll speak, that I'll speak. Now, if he is coming from the śūdra community...
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...but he is now minister...
Guest: He's a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lady Guest: Not even brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Not exactly, yes.
Lady Guest: Not a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: But at least he's a kṣatriya.
Guest: He's a defense ministry.
Prabhupāda: Yes, defense ministry is kṣatriya and that is, that is the sanction of the śāstra .
yasya yal-lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ
puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam
yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiśet.
SB 7.11.35
This is the statement by Nārada Muni. I shall quote the śāstra.
Guest: Right (?).
Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya . Kṣatriya's... . Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ BG 4.13 . According to guṇa , śauryaṁ tejaḥ , yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. These are the kṣatriya qualities. So śāstra says if these qualities are anyatrāpi dṛśyeta, if these qualities are found somewhere else.... Suppose a śūdra, a caṇḍāla, if these qualities are found there, then he should be designated by that post, not as śūdra.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: There are many instances but this is the injunction of the śāstra. And practically also. Suppose a man is a medical practitioner. He may be born in a brāhmaṇa family or śūdra family. Nobody wants to know to which family he belongs to. If he sees that he is a medical practitioner, he has passed the MD examination and that he is practicing then people accept him as doctor, medical man. Nobody asks him, "Are you a brāhmaṇa , then I make my treatment with you?" Nobody asks that. So, this is śāstric injunction. Then later on this caste brāhmaṇism, śūdraism made the whole thing, whole Hindu culture, Vedic culture spoiled.
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: That is the.... Now it is the duty of the secular government.... Now if somebody is claiming that, "I am brāhmaṇa" , then government should force him to become actually a brāhmaṇa. That is government's duty, that is secular state. Not that let people go to hell, we don't care for them, that is not required.
Guest: Yes, but if a brāhmaṇa is not behaving...
Prabhupāda: If you are claiming to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa.
Lady Guest: (indistinct) of a brāhmaṇas .
Guest: And actions and duty....
Prabhupāda: That should be the platform.
Guest: Because if a brāhmaṇa goes on drinking and abusing...
Prabhupāda: That is not brāhmaṇa. How can that be brāhmaṇa? That is a śūdra , caṇḍāla. Then what is the difference between a.... But they are claiming brāhmaṇa by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra.
Guest: No, no.
Prabhupāda: It is not allowed.
Guest: It is by our actions and faults(?).
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said by Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ BG 4.13 . Never says birth. Guṇa-karma, quality and karma.
Guest: One thing more I can do here for all the devotees...[break]
Prabhupāda: ...Sanskrit teaching in our books.
Guest: Language also.
Prabhupāda: Language doesn't matter. Suppose if I address your wife, "mātā" or if I call, "mother". It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
Guest: No.
Prabhupāda: One has to understand that a lady should be respectfully called as mother. You call as mātā or mother, it doesn't matter. Yes, some rascals inquire from them that, "Do you know Sanskrit?" Where is the condition that unless one knows Sanskrit he cannot be a devotee? Where is that condition?
Guest: In the same way you see early Christians inquired, "Do you know Latin?" And that's why the whole of England wrote it and said we will do only in English.
Prabhupāda: So, one bābājī... I think that you were in Surat?
Devotee: : Yes.
Prabhupāda: You were Surat? He was asking, that bābājī, that, "Learn Sanskrit then you'll understand Bhagavad-gītā." So I immediately asked him that, "You go away, you go away from this place."
Guest: Not at all.
Prabhupāda: So he supposed.... I went to preach in the Western countries. Did they know Sanskrit? Then how they have become Vaiṣṇavas? It is a training, it is a training. It doesn't matter whether you know Sanskrit or not Sanskrit. But some rascals inquire, "Do you know Sanskrit, otherwise you cannot become..."
Guest: It is good to learn as many languages as you can, but if not that doesn't matter anything.
Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, although people say I am Sanskrit scholar, but we are not educated as Sanskrit scholar. Whatever Sanskrit we have learned from this book only. A Sanskrit scholar is different, he learns grammar 14 years.
Guest: A waste of time, a waste of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then other side, he takes a whole time, you see?
Guest: (indistinct) greatest Romanian poet and he studies Sanskrit and (indistinct) he's worshiped like Shakespeare in Romania. And (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars.
Guest: Max Muller for example.
Prabhupāda: Max Muller was not very big scholar, but at the present moment there are many actually scholars.
Guest: And Lesnee(?), Professor Lesnee(?) was another scholar in Bengali and Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: But that does not mean he knows the Vedic literatures.
Guest: No, but they were...
Prabhupāda: Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo (Sanskrit)... This is another verse (?).
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Simply because you have good brain substance, you'll be a devotee?
Guest: No, no. Bhāvanaḥ(?).
Prabhupāda: Bhāvanaḥ(?) means it is, it is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. If one is sincerely surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa, then He gives the intelligence how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not a mechanical way.
Guest: No.
Prabhupāda: It is not a mechanical way. Simply one has to become very serious and sincere, then you develop. yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deva tathā gurau , prakāśaḥ [ŚU 6.23] . He becomes revealed. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ BG 7.25 . He is not revealed to everyone. It requires the qualification how to become a devotee, surrendered soul. (Hindi) Your daughter, as soon as there was kīrtana , how she was dancing?
Guest: Hm.
Prabhupāda: She is young girl.
Guest: She is very devoted.
Prabhupāda: She has the advanced devotion. Therefore.... She is a young girl, she was not ashamed, so immediately she began to dance.
Guest: She has always been like that.
Prabhupāda: This is automatic, so this is not an artificial thing.
Guest: No, no she feels it. That is her mission.
Prabhupāda: No, I was very surprised how this nice girl.... Other girls they are also dancing. So this dancing, I was explaining to him that this dancing was not artificial.
Guest: It is from heart.
Prabhupāda: Ecstatic.
Guest: Ecstatic, yes. Otherwise nobody will get up at 3:30 in the morning.
Prabhupāda: Locovāca(?). Doesn't care that here is my mother, here is my father, here is my.... No. Effortless(?).
Guest: She says today she is going to the park to make a temple.
Prabhupāda: So, she has got the tendency to become a perfect devotee. As a father and mother you should not hamper it.
Guest: (laughs) I tell her that too, you know.
Prabhupāda: ...because it is not easy to become a devotee.
Guest: I know.
Prabhupāda: It is not easy. manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ BG 7.3 . Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate BG 7.3 . To become a devotee and surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. Bahūnāṁ janmanām . And if she has developed it is the duty and śāstra says pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. These things are there. So, if she has got the natural tendency you should give all possible help to her. This is the duty of the father.
Guest: This is quite right.
Prabhupāda: This is the duty of the father.
Guest: We give it at home, because we told her whatever she wanted to put things, mūrtis, other things, we have installed it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, let her enjoy this devotional life. She has developed it. It is a fortune for you because if one member of the family becomes a devotee of the Lord he can deliver all the members. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Prahlāda Mahārāja, his father was Hiraṇyakaśipu, a demon.
Guest: I know.
Prabhupāda: Demon. Demon. (laughs) Prahlāda Mahārāja when he was asked, "Take benediction, whatever you like", he said, "Sir, what benediction I shall take? I have seen the benediction of my father. He was so powerful even the demigods trembled by his red eyes and You finished it within a second. So what is the value of this benediction? Kindly engage me in Your service." Then Prahlāda Mahārāja he did not ask anything for himself, but later on he asked Nṛsiṁhadeva, "Sir, my Lord, one request I can make. My father was great demon, he was against You, but still I pray that his liberation will be granted."
Guest: Very nice of him, very good of him.
Prabhupāda: (laughs)
Guest: To save his father.
Prabhupāda: So Nṛsiṁhadeva replied, "Don't be worried about your father. Not only your father, but your father's father, his father, up to 14 generations because a devotee like you, because you are born in this family, 14 generations they are also liberated." Best service. If your daughter can give best service to your family by becoming a devotee. She gives service to you, to your husband, to your husband's father, your father, that is the śāstric injunction.
Guest: What exactly is a devotee?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: What exactly is a devotee?
Prabhupāda: Devotee means he does not know anything better than Kṛṣṇa, that's all.
Guest: But suppose a man who is working in life with always that consciousness, is he...
Prabhupāda: What is that consciousness?
Guest: That he knows nothing but Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That his actions will prove.
Guest: No, not action. Just you say the brāhmaṇa must do by actions.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: So a devotee is also by actions he can do it?
Prabhupāda: By symptoms.
Guest: Symptoms.
Prabhupāda: Just like your daughter, she is always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Even she does not like to live with family because she does not find very congenial atmosphere.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: A devotee.... Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura prays, tādera caraṇa-sevi-bhakta-sane vās , bhakta-sane vās. You must live amongst the devotees.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: In our society he has come from America, he has come from Canada, I am from India, but we have forgotten all our family relations, we have nothing to do. We are in a different atmosphere. They can die for me, I can die for them, but we have no family relationship. He coming from America, I'm from India, he's from Canada, but the central point is Kṛṣṇa. You see? That is devotee. Tādera caraṇa-sevi-bhakta-sane vās , bhakta-sane vās. Therefore we have made this society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious let us live together. We are also living together in a house—we are eating, we are sleeping, doing this, but everything in a society of devotees. Just like if you want to do some business if you become a member of the association, stock selling exchange, you can do better business.
Guest: (laughs) But not all the time.
Prabhupāda: No, no I say.... Not all the time because it is material, this is material. They cannot do all the time because this is temporary. You can work as a stock exchange broker for a few hours then it will be havoc(?). But it is not like that. If you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra 24 hours, you'll never be worried. You'll never be tired. That is the difference between material and spiritual activities. Just like these boys they are working day and night (indistinct). I do not pay them. They are all qualified. Suppose if one wanted to keep a servant like him, how much he will have to pay? They are doing for nothing. Rather if I become angry they become afraid. (laughs)
Guest: But I also.... No, no, I mean I...
Prabhupāda: But you are also helping us.
Guest: (indistinct) ISKCON.
Prabhupāda: That I know, that I know. Therefore you have got such a nice daughter.
Guest: You see, but I have only this thing that I feel it is my responsibility to look after the family also.
Prabhupāda: It is the duty of everyone that this movement is so important that people are in the darkness of ignorance. They have become so rascal all over the world. It is not a particular country, all over the world. They are living like cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating and dying. And we are giving the information what is the value of life. So every sane man take this movement very seriously.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: All the leaders they are teaching simply to live like cats and dogs, that's all. What is the business of cats and dogs? Eat, sleep, have sex life and die and defend. What is the difference in this minister? The defense minister is defending. The cats and dogs also defend. Why minister? They have taken it very important.
Guest: In some way even the cats and dogs are better, they defend better.
Prabhupāda: Yes, without money, without soldiers, they have got nails.
Devotee: : Cats and dogs have weapons built-in.
Guest: And more over (indistinct) and they are loyal, you see?
Prabhupāda: So, we are thinking now we have got defense measure with atomic bomb, we are now advanced. But what is that advancement? That defense method is there even with cats and dogs. What you have done beyond this? They have no brain. Everyone is spoiling life with these four principles of how to eat, how to sleep. Eating...
Guest: Even they don't eat nicely. They eat rubbish.
Prabhupāda: Actually they eat all rubbish, but they think like.... It is a misguided civilization.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So we are practically against all this misguidance of the human civilization.
Guest: I know.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānas te 'pīṣa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ SB 7.5.31 . Blind men leading other blind me, this is going on.
Guest: I was suggesting, we have got this, ah.... What you call that flower? (indistinct)
Devotee: : (indistinct)
Guest: No, no, what you call that (indistinct) that flower came?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest: White flower, fragrant flower, it is called Parajit.
Devotee: Pārijāta.
Guest: Pārijāta.
Lady Guest: Pārijāta.
Guest: Pārijāta flower, no? We have got a plant. If you want for this you can have.
Prabhupāda: No, a Pārijāta plant is not here. It is not possible.
Guest: No.
Prabhupāda: That is heavenly.
Guest: We have got here Pārijāta.
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest: They call it Pārijāta.
Prabhupāda: They call. (laughs)
Guest: A very beautiful, fragrant flower.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is (indistinct) (indistinct) flower.
Guest: Oh, it is nice.
Prabhupāda: It is nice, there are many nice flowers.
Guest: You want some nice flowers. I have got a lot of plants now. (indistinct) Tell somebody to come I can give for the garden here. I have got some marigolds, I have got a few (indistinct). I think they are very nice for the pūjā. Tomorrow you can get that. [break]
Prabhupāda: So high for these poor people.
Guest: Such a vicious circle. Higher the prices, higher the wages, higher the wages, higher the prices with less production. If there are five loaves and people have 10 rupees they'll buy five loaves. And if they have 20 rupees also they'll buy five loaves because there are not 10 loaves.
Prabhupāda: No, no this high price is due to (indistinct). They are holding stock.
Guest: That is not sufficient for all these people, population.
Prabhupāda: No, if you pay them sufficient.
Guest: As it is the stock is so limited.
Lady Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: (speaking in background)
Guest: You see what happens.... Suppose you see in a house there are four liters of milk, you see, and each one is given 100 rupees, you see, then they will buy each one, let's say one liter. And if they are given 200 rupees the one who has got 200 rupees, they get one for also 200 rupees, you see? So what is happening is people who have got black money, they want the things for themselves, there is a price there.
Prabhupāda: How they get black market?
Guest: No, because stock being limited. Suppose a medicine is being wanted, a man is willing to give anything for that medicine.
Prabhupāda: So far I have got experience the stock is available if you pay for it.
Guest: Look at last year's drought over there. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Guest: Greater productions is one of the keys to lower prices.
Prabhupāda: This is one of the businessman's tricks. When there is new harvest they purchase and keep it and they keep the stock.
Lady Guest: Store it.
Prabhupāda: And when the prices are high they sell it. Now the same process suppose if I want to hold stock, say 100 tons of rice, so I have no money, if I have got 25% price the bank will advance me 75% so I hold the stock.
Guest: Now it is an offense to hold the stock.
Prabhupāda: That is going on in black.
Guest: Therefore that should be stopped.
Prabhupāda: So how you can stop?
Guest: By better consciousness, where truth is good.
Prabhupāda: Ah! That requires Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest: Ah, yes.
Prabhupāda: Then you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest: Ultimately everything.
Prabhupāda: Unless you become a devotee.
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: Therefore śāstra says, harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā SB 5.18.12 .
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: Those who are nondevotee they cannot have any good quality.
Guest: You see therefore unless you have more production and good quality people...
Prabhupāda: Production. (indistinct) cooperate. Just like United Nations. We can produce 20 times production that is required.
Guest: Quite right.
Prabhupāda: So much land.
Guest: Quite right. In America, Australia, I have seen.
Guest: (indistinct) so little water. You can put plastic sheets to collect water.
Prabhupāda: There will not be any scarcity of food. (indistinct)
Guest: Yes, if we work hard.
Prabhupāda: Not work hard, everyone should produce. But who's producing. Suppose in Delhi, such a big city. What is the population?
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is the population? Tell me.
Guest: About ah, four million.
Prabhupāda: Four million. And what is the population of Bombay?
Guest: About six and a half million, seven million.
Prabhupāda: Seven million. And what is Calcutta?
Guest: About seven and a half million.
Prabhupāda: And we say you take.... And what is the population of India?
Guest: Five ah, nearly six hundred million now.
Prabhupāda: Six hundred million.
Guest: Five hundred fifty, six hundred million.
Prabhupāda: So if you take all these city population it will come to three hundred million. They are doing nothing for producing.
Guest: No, they are producing cotton, textiles.
Prabhupāda: That's alright, but you cannot eat (indistinct).
Lady Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: You can produce bolt and nut but you cannot eat. So this is going on. Formerly everyone was in village. Everyone was interested to produce food. Everyone had got land. Even the brāhmaṇas they were not working. The śūdras would work and they produce half and half. Government would tax only 25%.
Guest: Hm.
Prabhupāda: That would cover everything—shelters, income tax, this tax, that tax, also. And if you not produced anything there was no tax. This was the system, everyone was happy. Here one side there is no production, there is scarcity. Another side government taxes 89, 95%.
Guest: 97%.
Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense?
Guest: 93%.
Prabhupāda: And everyone is doing everything, whatever he likes.
Guest: No trade is going on. We are under the counter (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: If I just now cut your throat, the police will come, arrest me, note down and the judgement will be given when all your family members will be longer.
Guest: The judgement won't be given, the police will take money and...
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Lady Guest: Everything will be over.
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: This the position. Everything is (indistinct). Therefore most important thing is people should come to his consciousness, real consciousness. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest: Character.
Prabhupāda: Character, yes.
<PS:Lecture>(conversation in Hindi) ( kīrtana ) (end)