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His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730428MW-LOS ANGELES - April 28, 1973 - 64:02 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Kliśyamānānām. It is very important word. Everyone is suffering here. What the scientists can do that? "Future." That's all. Bluff. But everyone is suffering here. That is the word. Bhave 'smin kliśyamānānām, avidyā . . . (SB 1.8.35).

Devotee: Kāma . . .

Prabhupāda: Kāma-karmabhiḥ. Avidyā-kāma-karmabhiḥ. They are creating a situation of suffering by unnecessary desire. That's all. So your scientific improvement means you are creating a situation of suffering. That's all. No improvement. You cannot. Kāma-karma . . . kāma-karmabhiḥ. They are working in such a way . . .

Devotee: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura also says the same thing: anitya saṁsāre moha janamiyā jīvake karaye gāḍha (Vidyāra Vilāse 3). The so-called scientific improvement means he's already an ass, and he's becoming more, better ass. That's all. Nothing more. He's already an ass because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has come to this material world to enjoy. That is ass mentality. There is no enjoyment. So he's already an ass. And this scientific improvement means he's becoming more attached to this material world to remain better ass. That's all. Avidyā . . . anitya saṁsāre. Anitya. He cannot stay here.

Suppose, working very hard like an ass, he gets a skyscraper building, throughout his whole life laboring. But he cannot stay there. He'll be kicked out. Is it not ass? Is he not an ass? He cannot stay there. Anitya saṁsāre. Anitya. Because it is not the permanent settlement. You are trying: dum-dum, very strong foundation. That's all right. But your foundation is nothing. You'll be kicked out. Therefore he's an ass that, "I will stay here for twenty years." Why dum-dum-dum, foundation stone? Where is your foundation? Therefore he's an ass.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Anitya is temporary, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes, anitya means temporary. You cannot stay here. That they do not understand. They're making research, making research. And if we ask them, "What you are doing?" "For the next generation—future." And what about your, your . . .? You're going to be a tree next life. What you'll do with your next generation? But he's ass. He does not know. He's going to stand before that skyscraper building, a tree, for ten thousand years, and he's making dum-dum-dum. Therefore he's an ass.

He does not know where he's going. And he's making provision for the next generation. What is the next generation? If there is no petrol, what you'll do, next generation? And how the next generation will help you? You are going to be a dog, cat or tree. So next generation, how he'll help you? Jīva ke karaye gādhā. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know his personal interest. And making research work. What research work? Simply śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply laboring . . . what is called? Labor of love? Or what is that?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata says, bhave 'smin kliśyamānānām avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ. Avidyā. Avidyā means ass, no intelligence. He does not know what is life, what is the course of life, how things are going on. He does not know. The more he is increasing his unnecessary desires, he's making himself entangled. That he does not know. He has to take freedom from the repetition of birth and death, but he's becoming more and more entangled. Avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ.

This is Bhāgavata. In one line, the whole material existence explained. This is literature. In one line, there is thousands years' research work. In one line. Bhave 'smin. Now this bhave 'smin, you make research. Asmin, in this world, taking birth. So you have to learn so many things on these two words: How the living entities are taking birth in this world. Wherefrom he's coming, where he's going. What is his business. So many things in these two words, bhave 'smin. Kliśyamānānām. Struggle for existence. Why? Avidyā. Ignorance. What is that avidyā? Kāma-karmabhiḥ.

Brahmānanda: Desire.

Prabhupāda: Activities of sense gratification. He's becoming entangled.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the modern scientific research means to increase the demands of the body, the bodily demands.

Prabhupāda: Yes, what they can do? Because they're rascal, foolish, just like children, they'll simply make their body dirty. That's all. He does not know anything. If you bring a small children, what they will do? They'll take this . . . you see. He does not know anything. He's a rascal. Similarly you scientists, you are all rascals. You do not know anything. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed, making research. What research you can do? You do not know anything. What research you can do?

And Vedic injunction is, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you know the Absolute Truth, then all other things become known. But you do not know what is Absolute Truth. Therefore you are in ignorance. If you know one thing, then you . . . just like you are talking. We are not official scientists or philosopher or anything. But why you are challenging, you are talking so boldly? Because we know one thing, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we can say so boldly and challenge anyone. I'm not a D.A.C. like you. How I can challenge you? I'm challenging you. How? Because I know Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

That is the statement of Veda: yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you know Kṛṣṇa, the Absolute Truth, then all other things will be known automatically. It is such a thing. We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, challenging all kinds of men in the society; so many scientists are coming, so many psychologist coming. So how we are confident to talk with him? Because we have learned little about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is it not?

You are a qualified scientist. Why I challenge you? Not that because you are my disciple, you are accepting all my challenges. You have got your reason. You are not a fool. So how it is possible? Practically, how it is possible? Because we are trying to know little about Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Therefore this Vedic injunction, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22).

These statements are there. If you get Kṛṣṇa, then you will not hanker after any more profit. Bās. All profit is that. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābham. If you get Kṛṣṇa, then all other kinds of profit you'll not hanker after. Then what kind of profit this is? Yasmin sthito guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate (BG 6.20-23). If one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in the greatest calamity of this world, he'll not be disturbed. This is the greatest profit. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. A big giant, Hiraṇyakaśipu, is putting him always in difficulty, but he's confident, "Yes, there is Kṛṣṇa." A five-years-old boy. He's not at all disturbed. Father is giving poison. "All right, give me poison." And throwing him from the hill on down. But he is steady. How it is possible? Guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate. Guru. Guru means heavy, very heavy difficulties. But na vicālyate. He's not perturbed, not disturbed. How it is possible?

So it is such a thing, that if you know Kṛṣṇa, you know everything. If you are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you are not disturbed in the heaviest type of calamity. So these things should be given to the human society. One thing. That will make his life perfect. Is it not?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now it is up to you, scientist, to explain: "Yes, this is it."

Brahmānanda: That is research work.

Prabhupāda: This is research work. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Uttamaśloka. Uttamaśloka means Kṛṣṇa. Guṇānuvarṇanam: describing His qualities. Avicyuto 'rthaḥ. This is success of life. Avicyutaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible. And how it is ascertained? Kavibhir nirūpitaḥ: by great personalities. They have decided: "This is the perfection of life." Kavibhiḥ. Yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam avicyuto 'rthaḥ (SB 1.5.22). This is Bhāgavata. Each word, each line, volumes of volumes of philosophy. This is called perfection. This kind of writing required. Not that I have researched, find out, and after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not right," another thing. This is not science. This is childish play. I say, "Today it is all right," and after fifteen days, "No, no. It is not all right."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That we find in science.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is what we find in science.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is . . . it is a scientific or clever method of drawing money from others. That's all. In other words, simple words, cheating. That's all. They do not know anything, and they're teaching, scientific method. Now suppose here is big, big waves. You scientists, you say some jugglery of words, "proton," "atoms," this, that, and "hydrogen," "phoxygen," "oxygen." But what benefit people will get? Simply they'll hear this jugglery of words. That's all. (chuckles) What else you can say? Now suppose it is hydrogen, oxygen, protons, neutrons, all these things. So your position and my position, where is the change? Still we do not get any profit by this jugglery of words.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Making more confusing to the innocent.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. One scientist explained to some extent; the matter remained the same. Another rascal comes. He explains again; and the matter remains the same. What advancement you have made? Nothing. Simply some volumes of books. That's all. Just like there is petrol problem. What your this explanation will help? You have created problem.

Now you are dependent so much on petrol. If the petrol supply is stopped, then what these rascal scientists can do? They cannot do anything. It is stopped. Now there is scarcity of water in India. What the scientists can do? Huh? There is enough water. Why the scientists cannot throw this water where there is scarcity of water? It will require the help of cloud. That is God's manipulation. You cannot do anything. Water is here—so much water. Why don't you make this sand fertile by bringing this water? Huh? Fertilization made by supplying water in the desert.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So here is water, here is desert. Why don't you do it? You cannot do anything. They are going to the moon planet, the dusty planet, to make it fertilized. Why don't you do here? Sahara desert, Arabian desert, or Rajasthan desert. And the seawater is there. Bring it, and make it fertile, fertilize. "Yes, in future." That's all. "We are trying." And immediately . . . (indistinct) . . . "Yes, yes, they are trying. Take all money. Take all money."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not give up hopes.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not give up hopes.

Prabhupāda: Even hope, there is no hope.

Brahmānanda: Blind hope.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ask any doctor, "Now this patient is suffering. You are giving medicine, you are very expert. Life is guaranteed?" "No, that we cannot do. That we cannot do." "We are trying." Trying—everyone can try. Then what is your scientific knowledge?


Harer nāma harer nāma . . . (CC Adi 17.21).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the real knowledge is taken away by ignorance?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The real knowledge is taken away by ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it says, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is claiming that, "I shall lead you, other blind men."

Brahmānanda: Into the pit.

Prabhupāda: That's all.


And in Bhāgavata, in one word, finishes . . . kliśyamānānām, you'll have to work hard, avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ, by your creating so many desires. By this process, you'll have to simply work hard. That's all. Because it is ignorance. You do not know what is the goal of life. So kāma-karmabhiḥ. You desire something: "Now we shall do like this." That means you create another problem, and you have to work very hard. That's all.


What is the next line of that verse? Anyone remembers? No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday's?

Prabhupāda: Yes.


This research work is kāma-karmabhiḥ. This, in the laboratory, research work, that is kāma-karmabhiḥ. They're planning something. That is kāma-karma. He, he does not take the planning of Kṛṣṇa. He makes his own plan. That is kāma-karma. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.20). In another place it is said when one is engaged in the matter of these unnecessary desires, he becomes lost of all intelligence. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ.


It is like the child's crying. The child is crying, asking mother, "Give me that moon." The mother gives a mirror: "Here is moon, my dear son." He takes the mirror. He sees the moon: "Oh, yes . . ." (chuckles) He has got the moon. It is not story. Now these rascals are going to the moon planet. Why they have stopped talking anymore?

Karandhara: Well, after spending all that money and taking a few rocks, they decided there's nothing more to do there.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is kept for future, or what?

Karandhara: I guess so.

Prabhupāda: Or they've finished their money. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're trying to . . .

Brahmānanda: They want to go to another one now.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, to another planet, Mars.

Prabhupāda: It is . . . it is finished? The moon planet is finished?

Karandhara: For the time being.

Brahmānanda: Yes, their, their travels there are finished.

Prabhupāda: Simply by taking some dust?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all? Just see how much . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Millions of dollars.

Prabhupāda: How great asses they are.

Karandhara: Billions. Billions.

Prabhupāda: You . . . you work very hard. This rascal government takes taxes and spend unnecessarily. That's all. This is their intelligence. A set of asses. That's all. They have no sympathy that, "This hard-earned money is coming from the public, and we are spending like anything." But nobody can check. This is going on. And they're giving another bluff, "Don't worry. I am going another planet."

Brahmānanda: Yeah, right. Another one.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "From there, I shall bring more dust."

Brahmānanda: More future.

Prabhupāda: More dust. Now you have got handful of dust; I'll bring tons of dust. Don't . . . and if I . . . "Oh, yes, now we shall get tons of dust." The rascal does not know, dust is dust, and full of tons . . . what is the meaning?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They believe that there may be life in Mars planet. So they are very hopeful . . .

Prabhupāda: If they believe or not believe, what gain there is? Life is here also. You are fighting. This is your program. Here is life also. Here is human being. So suppose there is life. There is life, undoubtedly. But what he will gain? What is your gain?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're very curious to know what is going on there.

Prabhupāda: That means for their childish curiosity they're spending so much money. Just see the fun. To satisfy their curiosity, they're spending so much money. And when they're asked that, "There are so many poverty-stricken countries. Help them," "No. No money." You see?

Nīlakaṇṭha: Some people are very happy, and they think, "Oh, my country has done this. They have gone to the moon. I am happy. I'm satisfied. I'm glad to be an American."

Prabhupāda: What's that?

Nīlakaṇṭha: Some people are very, the public, they're very satisfied "Oh, I am an American, and we have done this. We have gone to the moon. We are so good."

Prabhupāda: Why don't you say: "We have gone to Kṛṣṇaloka, Vṛndāvana, which you have no information"?

Brahmānanda: Then all their curiosity will be satisfied.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called "scientific advancement."


Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Can we hear a little bit from the Sāṅkhya philosophy?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sāṅkhya philosophy of Lord Kapiladeva? The creative elements.

Prabhupāda: Sāṅkhya philosophy is also analysis of the material elements. That's all. Your scientific research is also sāṅkhya philosophy. Sāṅ . . . sāṅkhya, it comes from the word saṅ-khyā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: To count?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Count, count. That's all. Analytically: what are the ingredients? Analytical studies. That is called saṅ-khyā, count. Suppose you take this sand. You count. It is called saṅkhyā. So, from the saṅkhyā, the word, it comes sāṅkhya, knowing analytically. This is sāṅkhya philosophy. So you are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Everyone is sāṅkhya philosopher. We are also sāṅkhya philosopher, because we are counting the material elements, as Kṛṣṇa says: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). We are analyzing: "This is land, this is water, this is air, this is sunshine, fire." Then I am counting with my mind, intelligence, ego. And further, I do not know.

Kṛṣṇa says, "There is further." That is the living force. That they do not know. They are thinking, "Life is combination of these matters." But Kṛṣṇa says, "No." Apareyam. This is inferior. The superior energy is living entity. So we are also sāṅkhya philosopher. But we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, and they're making their own attempt. That is the difference. They're depending on their own intelligence. We don't depend on my own intelligence. We depend on Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. That is the difference. Then, if Kṛṣṇa is perfect, then my intelligence is perfect. I may be not perfect, but because I take Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, therefore I'm perfect.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The . . . the nature of the inferior and the superior energies . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . are also described in the sāṅkhya philosophy?

Prabhupāda: They do not know superior energy. They, they simply analyze the material energy, just you are doing. You do not know. The scientists, they do not know that there is spirit soul. Is it? Do they know?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: So similarly the sāṅkhya philosophy also, they do not know what is spirit soul. Simply they're analyzing the material.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So just the creative material elements?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Material elements are not creative. Creative is the soul. Just like you make something with matter. Matter does not create itself. You living entity, you take them, hydrogen, oxygen, mix them, and becomes water. So matter it . . . itself has no creative energy. You keep here one bottle of hydrogen and . . . will they make water? Will they make?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hydrogen, oxygen?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you keep here hydrogen bottle, oxygen, will the combination come in contact?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unless it is done mix.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you require the superior energy. This is inferior energy, and the superior energy comes, mixes. Then the fact is there. The inferior energy has no power unless the superior energy tackles. Just like this sea will remain calm and quiet. But another superior, air, when it pushes, it becomes high waves. It has no power. Another superior . . . similarly another superior, another superior, another superior. So ultimately Kṛṣṇa, the most superior. This is research. These waves are not moving by itself, although the vast mass of water is there. When the superior energy, air, pushes it, it becomes big waves.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the action of force is necessary.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Force.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is some scientist's theory, Newton's? That originally there must be some pushing. What is it? Whose theory it is? To set in motion.

Devotee: Newton?

Prabhupāda: I think Newton's.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Newton has the laws of motion.

Prabhupāda: Motion. So one must give the motion. Then another motion, another motion, another motion. Just like big, big, that trucks, railway trucks. The engine pushes one truck. Have you seen shunting? The, the truck pushes. Another truck, another, kat-kat-kat-kat-kat-kat-kat-kat. Like that.

Brahmānanda: Shunting, yeah.

Prabhupāda: So who is giving the pushing? The living entity, driver. A big truck is being pushed: kata-kak, kata-kak, kata-kak, kata-kak, one after another. Similarly the whole creation, Kṛṣṇa is giving the pushing. Then one after another, one after another, one after another working. You see? Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That is stated in the Bha . . . mayādhyakṣeṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives the pushing first. Then everything comes, one after another. But His pushing capacity is so perfect that everything is coming out perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect.

Just like Kṛṣṇa says, bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10): "I am the seed of everything created." Now take the seed of the banyan tree. Kṛṣṇa has created. He says: "I am the seed." Now you sow the seed. A big tree will come out. Big tree will come out. Not only big tree; many millions of seeds will come out of it. And each seed, again big tree. So the original seed, Kṛṣṇa, pushes. Then one after another, one after another, one after another . . . So you are simply observing when the things are coming into existence by such pushing. But you are trying out . . . trying to find out who is the original pusher. That you do not know. That you do not know. Who has originally pushed this energy? That you do not know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the material elements . . .

Prabhupāda: You are simply observing the immediate cause. You do not know what is the remote cause. There are two causes: immediate cause and remote cause. Another call "Efficient cause and . . ."? The two words?

Brahmānanda: Efficient cause is the ultimate.

Prabhupāda: No, remote cause.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The remote cause is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), Vedic literature. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam: the cause of all causes. That is remote cause. And therefore if you understand the sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam, the cause of all causes, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you know the original cause, the later, subordinate causes, you know.

Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). You do not know the original cause, and when we say—"we say" means when the Vedas says—"Here is the original cause," you won't take it. Although you are searching after the original cause. Is it not? But when Veda . . . Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. But when gives you, "Here is the original cause," you won't take. You shall stick to your imperfect knowledge. This is your disease. Is it not a disease?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You do not know what is the original cause, and if some person suggests—some . . . not ordinary persons; authorized person—you won't accept.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists do not know that there are two types of energies.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not know that there are two types of energies . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . inferior and the superior.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That they're actually seeing every day.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Handling every day. Still they'll not. Dog's obstinacy. That's all. They're seeing practically that this material energy cannot work independently unless the spiritual energy joins. So how they can expect the whole cosmic manifestation, which is matter only, has come out automatically? We are practically seeing, a very nice car, Cadillac, but if there is no driver, what is the use of that car? A computer machine: unless the man knows how to work it, pushes the button, it does not work.

So practically we are seeing that without superior energy, the material energy does not act. Still they'll not believe it. Therefore in this wonderful cosmic manifestation there must be handling of a superior energy. And that they do not know. They are amazed with this material arrangement. Just like a foolish person is amazed by seeing the mechanical, big machine—so many parts. But another person knows that, however wonderful machine it may be, unless the operator comes and pushes the button, it will not work. This is intelligence. Therefore who is important? The operator or the machine?

So we are concerned with the operator, Kṛṣṇa, not with the machine. If you say, "How do you know that He's the operator?" He says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10): "Under My superintendence, the whole cosmic manifestation is working." The difference is you don't believe; I believe. That's all. I take it immediately: "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is operating." Therefore I have no problem. Somebody's operating, that you have to accept. But you do not know who is that person. At least, we have got knowledge, "Here is the person." That's all. Now if you say, "No, Kṛṣṇa is not the person," then you have to accept another person. So present him, that "Here is the person, not Kṛṣṇa. Another one." That you cannot. So in the absence of your knowledge, you have to accept my proposal.

(break) Can you create a stem like this in your laboratory?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's not possible.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) No, no. But see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is working. You cannot create even a few grains of sand, and you are claiming that, "We have become more than God." How foolishness it is.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will take the, the matter from Kṛṣṇa, and they will manipulate, and they will claim that they have done it. For example, they can make some, some sands . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. At least if you accept that, "I have taken this matter from Kṛṣṇa," that is also good. Just like we take. We take Kṛṣṇa, from Kṛṣṇa is coming everything. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they will not say that they are taking from Kṛṣṇa. They'll say that they have created.

Prabhupāda: How they have created? You take the sand and mix with some chemicals, make glass. So you have not created the sand. The chemicals, you have not created. You have taken from the earth. So where is your creation?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that, "I have taken from the nature."

Prabhupāda: Eh? Nature? That means you have taken from somebody. You have not created; you have stolen. Thief you are. And we say, "Yes, you have taken from the nature, but every property of nature, that belongs to Kṛṣṇa." Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Īśāvāsyam: it is all God's creation. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yes . . . if one does not perform yajña, he's a thief. Yajña means acknowledging that things have been taken from Kṛṣṇa. And we must satisfy Kṛṣṇa: "Kṛṣṇa, You have given so many things for our maintenance."

This much acknowledgment Kṛṣṇa wants. That's all. Otherwise, what He can expect from you? What you are in His presence? Prasāda. Prasāda means acknowledging: "Kṛṣṇa, You have given us this foodstuff. So first of all You taste. Then we take." This much. Kṛṣṇa's not eating. He's not hungry. He's eating. Although He's not hungry, He can eat the whole world; again produce it, as it is. That is Kṛṣṇa's power. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam . . . pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). Kṛṣṇa is so perfect that you take from Kṛṣṇa whole Kṛṣṇa's energy, still the original energy's there. That is conservation of energy.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a very scientific journal called Nature. The title of the journal is called Nature. What they do is . . . mostly they talk about the natural products like the plants, flowers, the natural living matters that we find. But they don't talk about God.

Prabhupāda: So they . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they say about nature.

Prabhupāda: Nature, that's all right. You are observing the plants are being produced by nature. But who has produced the nature? This is intelligence.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They don't think about it.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. Wherefrom the nature comes? As soon as we speak "nature," then next question should be, "Whose nature?" Is it not? Just like I say: "It is my nature." You say, "It is my nature." Therefore as soon as you talk of nature, the next inquiry should be, "Whose nature?"

Karandhara: They don't want to think of that, because they want to use it themselves.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Karandhara: They don't want to think . . .

Prabhupāda: Nature means energy. What is the definition of nature?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Something which are already existing.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they're already existing. That's all right. But what is the nature's activities? It is some power. Is it not? So power means energy. As soon as you say energy, there must be some source of energy. Just like you say electric energy. So there is source, the electric powerhouse. How can you deny it? Electricity's not coming automatically. You have to install powerhouse, machine, generating machine. Then the electricity will come. And the resident engineer: Who is the engineer? What is the machine? And then electricity, there is question of electricity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the Gītā we find . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the Gītā, we find that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the . . . "This material nature is working under My direction."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, as soon as you speak of energy, nature, there must be some background. Where is the source of this nature?

(pause) (looking at fisherman's paraphernalia)

What is this meant for?

Karandhara: Catches crabs. Catches little crabs. It's used for bait.

Prabhupāda: Oh.


(break) Harer nāma harer nāma . . .

(break) Scientists, they are studying . . . it is called stratum?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Layers. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Layers. Such layers, thousands of layers being manufactured and vanished every moment. And they are studying. As these layers are, they're being created and broken every moment, so all these universal so-called layers a few years. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is one of the tools . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is one of the tools that the geologists use to trace the origin of the earth.

Prabhupāda: No, you can stress. But I mean to say these . . . stratas?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Strata.

Prabhupāda: Strata is being created and vanquished every moment.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the . . . the background is not solid.

Prabhupāda: No. Just like the one strata is like that. After an hour, it will be different. So what is the use of your studying this strata? Therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means always changing. The material world is always changing. Your body . . . this body will stay, say, for fifty years, hundred years. Then you'll get another body. That's all. Another body. Jagat means change. Now this color is there. Say, after one hour, it will be white. You see. Then you study this black color. Again you study the white color. Again this black color. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Chewing the chewed. That is your business. Just like seasonal changes. Now it is cold. Any moment, you'll have to get out these clothes; it is very warm.

So these changes are going on. The whole material cosmic manifestation is subjected to different types of changes. Therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means going, changing. Your body's changing. Similarly, everything is changing. What is the eternity behind these changes? That is knowledge. That, the eternity, they do not find. Therefore they are disappointed: "It is void, zero. Eternity is zero." That's all. And when they are asked wherefrom the zero, varieties come . . . zero means there is nothing. So how the varieties come? Therefore Vedic conclusion: the varieties, there is—eternity variety—and this is only shadow of that variety. It is not eternal, because it is shadow. But the real variety, spiritual world, is there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the material planet, material universe, is a real image.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Image. Yes. Mirage.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mirage.

Prabhupāda: Yes, mirage.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, mirage is . . . mirage is not the real image . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it is illusory. Just like I see there is water in the desert. There is no water; this is illusion. But actually there is water. Therefore I get the conception that there is water. Water is there, but it is not there. Similarly these varieties is here, what we see, the varieties, enjoyment, that is only like that mirage. We have got the experience of water. But we are illusioned. We are seeing in a false place there is water. Similarly, we living entities, we are meant for enjoyment, but we are seeking enjoyment in a false place, or illusion. Just like animal runs after that desert water. But the intelligent man knows, "Oh, that, there is no water. It looks like water."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is a reflection from the sand.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, there is no . . . actually there is no water. But the animal runs after that water and dies out of thirst. Because they . . . he cannot satiate his thirst by such illusory water. Similarly we, ignorant, avidyā kāma-karmabhiḥ, we are trying to manufacture so many things to satisfy our thirst of joyfulness, but we are being baffled, because it is illusion.

Therefore real intelligence is, "Then where is the reality? Where is real water?" That is intelligence. Bhāgavata gives: vāstava-vastu vedyam atra (SB 1.1.2). Vāstava vastu. "Real reality, you'll find here." (pause)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: All glories . . .

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)