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720807 - Conversation - London

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His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720807R1-LONDON - August 07, 1972 - 60:30 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa, not Kṛṣṇa's money. (laughter) That is taken by Rāvaṇa. (laughter) Just like Sītā belonged to Rāma, but it was taken by Rāma, er . . . Rāvaṇa. And that is . . . and Hanumān become perplexed. So we are perplexed that Rāma . . . Sītā has been taken by Rāvaṇa, and so we are trying to rescue her.

And that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Sītā-Lakṣmījī, eh? Rāmacandra-Lord Rāma, Nārāyaṇa. So Rāvaṇa thought that, "Let me make profit taking away Sītā." The result was that he became vanquished with everything. He could not get the favor of Sītā, but the whole family, whole kingdom became vanquished.

So this policy is being followed at the present moment. Everybody is interested with Sītā, not with Rāma. You see? But the foolish people do not know that without Rāma you cannot keep Sītā. You see? That is happening. When you go to ask for some money in India, they give us one thousand, two thousand. And when there is war within Pakistan and Hindustan, somebody is giving fifty lakhs, somebody is giving hundred lakhs. And what is being used? Namo "bombayah" namaḥ. "Bombayah."

So if you don't spend for Rāma, then you will have to spend for bomb, that's all. You cannot keep the money. That is the way of nature. That, "I want to keep money"—that is illusion. You cannot keep. It will be spoiled. If you don't spend for Kṛṣṇa, then it will be spoiled for some other purpose. Therefore so long as we have got money, let us spend it for Kṛṣṇa. That is real savings. That is real savings. There is a verse, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer (SB 1.5.17). That verse is very nice. Hmm? Where is it?

Dhanañjaya: Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (break)

tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer
bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi
yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ
ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ
(SB 1.5.17)

Evaṁ tāvat tat karma-karmādi anartha-hetutva taṁ vihāya harer līlāiva bandhaniya tam . . . (Śrīdhara Svāmī commentary) Nārada Muni is advising that if one gives up his prescribed duty, sva-dharmaṁ . . . tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ. Sva-dharmaṁ means occupation. According to Vedic thought, occupation means brāhmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now we have got somebody is businessman, somebody is lawyer, somebody is engineer, somebody is something. So somehow or other, everybody has got some prescribed duty or occupation.

So here it is advised, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann: even one gives up his prescribed duty and takes shelter of Hari, Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann. Now if one executes devotional service after taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa, that is all right—but even if he falls down, and in immature stage, the Bhagavat says, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ: "What is the loss there?" Just try to understand. Even if he falls down . . . because there are so many strict rules and regulation. If one follows the rules and regulation, and the devotional . . . avyabhicāreṇa bhakti.

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena ya sevate
(BG 14.26)

So even if he becomes avyabhicāreṇa, broken, and he may be not successful in one life, but Nārada Muni says—this is the word of Nārada Muni—says: "Then what is the loss there?"

yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ
ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ
(SB 1.5.17)

But if one is engaged in his occupational duty very perfectly but he does not know what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then what is his gain? This is the question. Ko vārtha āpto: what does he gain, abhajatāṁ, if he is not engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, sva-dharmataḥ, but he is fixed up in his prescribed duties?

So we have to understand this important verse, that we may be very faithfully discharging our duties as a family man, as a community man, as a nationalist, as a businessman or this or that perfectly, but if we do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no gain—it is simply waste of time. This is the verdict.

On the other hand, one gives up the occupational duties, prescribed duties, and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and even if he does not advance perfectly—if he falls down—there is no loss. Here this man sticking to his prescribed duty does not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no gain. On the other hand, a man gives up his prescribed duty, takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness but does not make it perfect—falls down—he has no loss. Try to understand.

So Śrīdhara Svāmī remarks on this, nānusvadharma tyāgena bhajana bhakti paripakena yadi kṛtārtho bhavet tadā na kadācit cintā. All right, one has given up his prescribed duty and he is engaged in devotional service. That's very nice; there is no question. But yadi punar apakva eva mriyate . . . (Śrīdhara Svāmī commentary). There is no anartha, no anartha. There is no anartha; still he is gainer.

The thing is that this man who has given up his prescribed duties and taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and even he falls down, whatever percentage he has executed, it goes with him, whereas in ordinary work, suppose you are a businessman, you have accumulated millions of dollars in the bank—when you go, the money remains in the bank; you go empty-handed.

Śyāmasundara: Death duties . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have worked so hard for this millions of dollars—it is all lost. And Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś ca aham (BG 10.34): "I am death, and as death I take away everything."

So the purport is that whether I accumulate millions of dollars, and at the time of my death it remains in the bank and I go empty-handed, and according to my karma I take another birth, may be human being or cats and dogs—that is a different thing—but whatever I have accumulated here, that remains here—it does not go with me.

But this devotional service, whatever you have executed, even if it is not fulfilled cent percent, even it is ten percent or fifteen percent, that ten percent, fifteen percent or fifty percent goes with you, and next life you get a chance for begin either from fifty-one percent or sixteen percent, as you have . . .

But all other material assets, that you cannot take. Therefore the conclusion is that so long we have got some strength, intelligence, money, it should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that it will go with us.

Indian guest: Swami, could you explain in simple words what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: Explain what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Indian guest: Yes, in simple . . .

Prabhupāda: You explain, Revatīnandana Mahārāja.

Revatīnandana: Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to understand first of all that I am not this body; that this body is born, this body dies, but I am not this body. I am an eternal spirit, jīvātmā, and I am living in this body. Then when this body is finished, I will go out of this body. And whatever is my desire at death, whatever is my work in this life, I will get another body in that condition. It will go on like this.

But the solution how to get the eternal soul out of the cycle of birth and death is to understand that the spirit soul, the jīvātmā, is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. In the Fourth Chapter of Kṛṣṇa's Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says: "When you have seen the truth, you will see that all these living beings are My parts and parcels. They are in Me, and they are Mine." (BG 4.35) And Kṛṣṇa says that these part and parcels are all eternal. They are eternal entities; they are actually associates of Kṛṣṇa. We have forgotten this.

Now to revive my relationship with Kṛṣṇa, the part and parcel serves the whole. Just like the part of the hand . . . the part of the body is the hand. The hand must take foods and must put the foodstuff to the mouth and into the stomach; then the hand is nourished. If the hand tries to enjoy the food separately, that will be frustration, there will be no benefit. But the part and parcel, the hand, must serve the whole body.

Similarly, we part and parcel entities are, by nature, we are servants of Kṛṣṇa. Now we are serving boss, country, family, and if we have nothing else to serve we serve a dog or a cat. But we are always a servant. Service is part of our nature. That is the thing you cannot change. We are all servants. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that I am not anymore serving on this bodily platform but I am serving as a spirit, and the spirit is meant to serve God, to serve Kṛṣṇa.

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to become conscious that I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. It's His energies. I am part of His energies. Therefore every energy should be offered to Kṛṣṇa. My business is to offer it. This is called bhakti-yoga. This is what we are doing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So when one understands, begins to act on that principle, then he is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The result is that he purifies his existence.

Kṛṣṇa is Parabrahman, Supreme Spirit. When you link with Kṛṣṇa you are purified, and you realize, "I am spirit soul," and even before quitting this body you are seeing Kṛṣṇa everywhere in that pure state. Then automatically in that state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even this body is dying . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "One who is always fixed his mind on Me can know and remember Me even at the time of death." (Bg 8.5) And thus you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa—that is your desire, for Kṛṣṇa—you take birth in His eternal abode, which is called Vaikuṇṭha, or actually Goloka Vṛndāvana. So to . . .


yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke
tyajaty ante kalevaram
(BG 8.6)

Indian guest: Where to fix our attention then these days? To "fix the attention in Me" means . . . what does He means by "Me"?

Prabhupāda: What do you mean? What do you mean?

Indian guest: That . . . at the time of death.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by "Me"?

Indian guest: "Me" means . . . at this junction, there is nothing.

Prabhupāda: If I say: "Give me a glass of water," what do I mean by this?

Indian guest: Yes. Do you mean this body? I don't think you mean that body. There is something else in me, so for the bodily person, if it is not explained properly . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore, bodily person, this education is being imparted, that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul." Now, at this present moment, when I speak in my bodily concept of life, "Give me a glass of water," that water is needed for my body.

Indian guest: The soul is not to be seen, so what can a man, by dying, fix his attention or ātmā, in what? It is not to be seen. And nirākāra, there is a God, we cannot see it. So could it be made clear in worldly words to which a man, by dying . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot see . . . you cannot see so many things. That does not mean that things are not existing. You cannot see what is beyond this wall.

Indian guest: So . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Your seeing power is very defective. So this is not a argument, that because you cannot see, there is no soul. That is not good argument. You cannot see beyond this wall. That does not mean there is nothing beyond this wall.

Your seeing power is defective. So you cannot see so many things—but you can hear. Just like beyond this wall, who knows? He can say: "Beyond this wall there is another house, belongs to Mr. Such-and-such." He can say. So you can understand what is beyond this wall by hearing, not by seeing.

Similarly, you see there is no soul, but you can hear from Kṛṣṇa there is soul. Kṛṣṇa says:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra . . .
(BG 2.13)

So you have to hear from Kṛṣṇa. Why do you believe on your seeing power? You are so defective, and still you are believing on your seeing power. Your argument is, "I cannot see." But what is the value of your seeing? Why don't you consider in that way?

Indian guest: There are so many arguments . . .

Prabhupāda: Your seeing is worthless. First of all you have to admit that. You cannot say, "Because I do not see, there is no existence." This is not argument.

Indian guest: I am not arguing. I am trying to understand it, because I have . . . I want to understand it . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Now you understand that I say that just like nobody sees where is the soul. Birth, one can perceive—that is the education. Just like a man dies, his relatives cry, "Oh, my father gone. My father gone." Why your father is dying? See your father. You have seen your father, this body. Why you are crying? What is your answer? You have seen all along this body is your father. Why you are crying, "My father is gone, my father is gone"? Why?

Indian guest: That is why I ask—that is it cannot be seen . . .

Prabhupāda: That means that you have not seen your father, so long you have . . .

Indian guest: You have to be fixed up, fix the attention while dying. That is my question . . .

Indian guest (2): Can I answer, Swami?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian guest: Yes, you can answer.

Indian guest (2): For us, Kṛṣṇa is not just airy. His personality is as real as you and I are real. So when the attention is to be fixed, it is to be fixed on Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa Himself—Kṛṣṇa with physical body, Kṛṣṇa as you see in the temple down below, Kṛṣṇa as described by Bhagavad-gītā and described by Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.


man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
(BG 18.65)

Indian guest (2): Fix the attention on Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Indian guest (2): . . . Kṛṣṇa in His personalized form, and you will never go wrong. So while dying, fix your attention on Kṛṣṇa. And you can only do it if throughout your life if Kṛṣṇa's name is on your tongue. If for twenty-four hours if you are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, at the time of your death, His name will automatically come.

Prabhupāda: His name and He are not different.

Indian guest (2): He and His name, Swāmījī has taught us, not different. For any other thing, the object and its name are different. But for Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's name is the same thing as Kṛṣṇa Himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian guest: There is one more question, Swāmījī . . . (indistinct) . . . in Gītā it is said several times that ye bhajanti tattve. Tattve. What does it mean? How can you explain tattve?

Prabhupāda: What is the spelling?

Indian guest: (indistinct) . . . T-a-t-t-v-e. I just want only to understand this. I don't want to ask you a question. I tell you very frankly. I want to ask a question to understand when in twenty-fourth verse of Ninth Chapter, which says:

ahaṁ hi sarva-yajñānāṁ
bhoktā ca prabhur eva ca
na tu mām abhijānanti
tattvenātaś cyavanti te
(BG 9.24)

Tattven . . . this example, tattven?

Prabhupāda: Tattvena. Tattvena means "in truth." Tattvena means "in truth." In truth, what is actually Kṛṣṇa, that is called tattvena. So that can be understood, Kṛṣṇa explains:

bhaktyā mām abhijānāti
yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvena
(BG 18.55)
bhaktyā mām abhijānāti
yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvena

That tattvena you can understand by bhakti. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. So you have to take to the bhakti-yoga; then you will understand what is tattvena.

Indian guest (3): Why?

Indian guest: If one is ignorant, what is the way of reaching that stage, when he can understand . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes. First thing is śraddhā. Just like you are asking question: śraddhā, faith. Just like anyone who is coming to us, he has got some little faith. But that is the beginning—ādau śraddhā. Śraddhā means, "It is very nice. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very nice. Let us try to understand what it is." This is called śraddhā. Then next stage is ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgo (CC Madhya 23.14), Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15).

Then next stage, if you are serious about this, to understand kṛṣṇa-tattvena, then you must associate with persons who are actually kṛṣṇa-bhakta. Just like if you want to learn some business, you go to the association of that business society. You see? First of all you are interested, "I learn this business. I want to learn this business." All right, then you go to the society, stock exchange society, this society, banker's society, all this—you learn.

First of all this intention: śraddhā. Then sādhu-saṅga. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgo. Sat-saṅga. Then bhajana-kriyā. Then as they are executing devotional service—they are rising early in the morning, having mangala-ārati, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, reading books, taking prasāda, going to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness—these are called bhajana-kriyā. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt: then things which are blocking you to understand kṛṣṇa-tattvena, that will be finished. That means anartha. Just like we prohibit our students not to have illicit sex; not to drink or any intoxication, up to drinking tea or smoking; no gambling; no meat-eating.

So these are within the bhajana-kriyā. Early rising early in the morning, offering mangala-ārati—giving up all this nonsense habit. These are bhajana-kriyā. Bhajana-kriyā, anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Anartha means which you do not require. Just like without smoking, without drinking tea or liquor, you won't die; you have simply practiced to by bad association.

Similarly, by good association you can give it up. Just like these European, American boys, they were habituated to all these bad habits—but now they have given up. This is called anartha-nivṛttiḥ. Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ, after that, tato niṣṭhā. Nisthā means firm faith. This firm faith is on the platform of understanding kṛṣṇa-tattvena. Otherwise you cannot have firm faith.

So you have to pass through so many stages, then you can come to the platform of understanding kṛṣṇa-tattvena. Niṣṭhā. Tato niṣṭhā. Athāsaktis: then attachment. Athāsaktis tato bhāva: then ecstasy. Then you will get love of Kṛṣṇa.

sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ
prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ
(CC Madhya 23.15), Brs 1.4.16)

Any sādhaka who is actually trying to love God, these are the stages, kramaḥ. So you have to go through the kramaḥ pantha. Theoretically understanding will not help you. You have to take to practical life.

Indian guest: Thank you very much . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is tattvena.

Indian guest (4): May I ask you? Some of the students come from India, Bangladesh, and all places. So I generally come to the temple sometimes, and the other boys laugh at me that, "You come to the court of the temple," and so on. Because "You are a student, so you should worship goddess of learning."

Prabhupāda: Who advises you?

Indian guest (4): No, the Hindu religions.

Prabhupāda: Who is that gentleman?

Indian guest (4): There are goddess . . .

Prabhupāda: Who is the leader of that Hindu religion? If you hear some nonsense, then that is a different thing. He is a nonsense who advise you like that. So you have to reject all this nonsense proposals.

Indian guest (4): So you think that we shouldn't worship the goddess of learning? That Sarasvatī is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, if you are simply satisfied with goddess . . . learning, you can worship goddess of learning. But what your learning will do? That will not save you from the material, I mean to say, tribulations. There are so many learned scholar. Does it mean that he is not subject to birth, death, disease and old age? You become learned, but if you do not become so learned as to understand God, then what is the value of your learning? Ultimately, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante
jñānavān māṁ prapadyate
(BG 7.19)

That means learning is not finished—it is still imperfect knowledge, jñānavān—unless he comes and surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Just like goddess of learning . . . this is a long story; it will take time. The goddess of learning, Keśava Bhāratī . . . she advised Keśava Bhāratī to . . .

(break) Rather, the man who comes to the sunshine, he becomes disinfected. You follow what I said?

Indian lady guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So everyone is infected with some sinful life, so if he comes to the temple, the temple is not affected by his infection. Rather, the infected man becomes purified, sterilized.

Indian lady guest: And what is a man's duty, should he do if his family is averse to Kṛṣṇa and if he wants to follow Kṛṣṇa's way? What should he do? Should he leave his family?

Prabhupāda: Let him follow the Kṛṣṇa's way, that's all. That is his duty.

Indian lady guest: Do his duty.

Prabhupāda: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and what Kṛṣṇa says, do. That's all. That's your duty.

(break) . . . loko 'yam-karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). If you do not work on account of Kṛṣṇa, then you become bound up by the resultant action of your karma, bad or good.

Indian lady guest: Each one, Kṛṣṇa puts you where He wants you to be, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian lady guest: Kṛṣṇa puts you where He wants you to be.

Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Does Kṛṣṇa put you where He wants you to be?

Prabhupāda: I do not follow.

Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa arrange for your situation in life, as if He wants it, so He makes you go there?

Prabhupāda: Still I do not follow.

Śyāmasundara: Does Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . wherever Kṛṣṇa wants us to be, that is where we are.

Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara: Our position in life is because Kṛṣṇa desires it.

Prabhupāda: First you desire. I desire to become such and such, Kṛṣṇa helps me, "All right, you become such and such." Man proposes, God disposes. So if I want to become a devotee, Kṛṣṇa makes you a devotee. If you want to become a demon, Kṛṣṇa makes you a demon. So when you become a demon, He gives you facility how to act as a demon. And when you become a devotee, He gives you facility how to become a devotee. Kṛṣṇa is very kind, as you want, He also gives you facility. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). But Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up all this nonsense habit of becoming demon. You just surrender unto Me." That's Kṛṣṇa's desire. That is Kṛṣṇa's desire.

But we don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, we surrender to our senses. Mind . . . my mind wants to do something, I do it. That's all. I don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is the cause of our suffering. Just like a small child, if he obeys the order of the parents, he is happy. If he does not do so, that is another thing. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is our supreme father. If we obey Kṛṣṇa, then we are happy. If we don't obey, then you are unhappy. Is there any difficulty to understand? It is very plain thing.

(break) . . . ask for them to fight, Kṛṣṇa arranged for the battle. Arjuna said: "No, I shall not fight. I shall not kill my brother and nephews on the other side." That is Arjuna's manufacturing; that is not Kṛṣṇa's manufacturing. Kṛṣṇa wanted that on the battlefield all the demons should be assembled and they should be killed. That was Kṛṣṇa's desire.

But Arjuna said: "No, they are my kinsmen. They are my brother, grandfather, nephews and son-in-laws and so on, so on. I cannot kill." Therefore he was given lesson on Bhagavad-gītā, and he was asked at the end, "What you want to do?" Then Arjuna said: "Yes, I shall do what You are asking, that's all." That is finished, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73).

This is spiritual life. We want to do something whimsically. Kṛṣṇa says something else. If we accept Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you are perfect, and if you go on doing something whimsically, then you are suffering. But we prefer to act whimsically according to our dictation of the senses. We do not take the dictation of Kṛṣṇa. That is the cause of our fall-down.

So our this movement is to teach people how to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. We are practically trying to be obedient to Kṛṣṇa, and we are preaching others also to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa. Simple thing. And how to become obedient to Kṛṣṇa? That is also stated:

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru
(BG 18.65)

You come to the temple, you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, offer your obeisances, always think of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto: "Always think of Me," Kṛṣṇa says: "Just become My devotee, offer your obeisances to Me, and your coming back to Me is guaranteed." That's all. Very simple thing.

If anyone wants to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is very simple. This is the formula; anyone can accept it. If not, if he wants to understand through philosophy, science, everything, there are books, three dozen books he can read.

So where is Kṣīrodakśāyī? He wants to . . .

Śyāmasundara: The meeting starts at seven, so he isn't here yet.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Śyāmasundara: I don't think he is here yet. It is only twenty-five past six.

Prabhupāda: Seven? Half-past seven?

Śyāmasundara: No, the meeting starts at seven. Now it is twenty-five past six.

Prabhupāda: Six. Oh. That's fine.

Śyāmasundara: Would you like to rest or take anything before?

Prabhupāda: No, no. It's all right.

English guest: Your Grace? Must your chanting always be audible? I ask this, because I was chanting in the train. The train makes a noise. Now, I am surrounded by people.

Prabhupāda: No?

English guest: I can chant audibly?

Prabhupāda: Audible . . . if you chant even silently, it is also audible. You have to turn your attention, is it not?

English guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Audible, if you don't make any sound, still it is audible.

Śyāmasundara: We hear it.

English guest: Would it be a good thing to chant audibly on a train full of people?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? They will also hear. They will be benefited. Yes. Haridāsa Ṭhākura used to do that. What to speak of human being, even animals, the insect, trees, if they hear, they will be benefited. It is so nice.

(aside as guests enter) Aiye. Ācchā. (Please come. Okay.) Jaya.

Whoever hears, he will be benefited. Just like sunshine—anyone comes in the sunshine, he will be benefited.

Indian lady guest: (indistinct) . . . some people hears it . . . why do some people hear (break) . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Śyāmasundara: (explaining) Some people do not like when they hear the mantra. Why is that?

Prabhupāda: They are unfortunate, narādhama. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā:

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
(BG 7.15)

This is the description: miscreants, rascal, lowest of the mankind. This is their title.

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
(BG 7.15)

Anyone who is not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he comes to either of these groups—miscreants, rascal, lowest of the mankind—I mean to say, taken all knowledge. All these descriptions are there in the Bhagavad-gītā.

So anyone who is not interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can very easily estimate their value on this group: miscreants, rascals, lowest of the mankind, and robbed of the knowledge. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. Maybe they have some academic degrees, but actual knowledge has been taken away by māyā—māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This is their position. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Don't think it very sectarian, but it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has no good qualification. He cannot have.

Śyāmasundara: Today I had a discussion with a Jewish man in the doctor's office. He said that Christ said in the Bible that . . . he was talking to someone, and he said that, "The beggars . . . don't think you are any better than the beggar or the prostitute." And he wanted to know what the meaning of this was. So I pointed that same thing out, that unless you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, you have no good qualities, whether you are a rich man or a beggar or anything.

Prabhupāda: Narādhamāḥ.

Indian lady guest: (indistinct) . . . if Kṛṣṇa knew the ending of the war, why did Arjuna have to fight and kill?

Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa wanted to fight. Kṛṣṇa wanted to fight. Kṛṣṇa is not nonviolent, bogus nonviolent. When there is necessity of fight, there must be fight. Kṛṣṇa has got two mission:

paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ
vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām
(BG 4.8)

He is calm and merciful to the devotees, and He has to kill the nondevotees. But because He is absolute, either He loves or kills, the effect is the same. That is absolute. Therefore God is good, all-good. In any circumstances He is good. Even if He kills, the person who is killed, he immediately gets salvation, mukti.

English guest: Your Grace, in The Nectar of Devotion, in the Introduction, there was an account of Lord Caitanya and a disciple of His, and while he was in the presence of Lord Caitanya, he cast a lustful glance at a woman, and Lord Caitanya rejected him. And afterwards His disciples came to Him and said: "Please forgive this disciple."

And Lord Caitanya said: "You may go and forgive him and go and live with him, and I will stay alone." Afterwards, the young man committed suicide, and when Lord Caitanya, who knows everything, said: "It is good. It is very good," this makes me very afraid of committing, in a moment of forgetfulness, a mistake like this.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that Lord Caitanya did not like hypocrisy. One should not . . . one should be very much alert against becoming a hypocrite. So this Choṭa Haridāsa, he proved to be a hypocrite. Therefore He was so strict.

English guest: What became of him after he committed suicide?

Prabhupāda: He went to Vaikuṇṭha.

English guest: Went to?

Prabhupāda: Yes, because he was Lord Caitanya's associate.

English guest: I see.

Prabhupāda: He, by mistake, he fallen down. Caitanya Mahāprabhu punished him. But that does not mean he would not go to Vaikuṇṭha. He would go. Just like father punishes his son, that does not mean he is not admitted in the home. So that was an exemplary punishment for the hypocrites, because this Choṭa Haridāsa was in renounced order of life. So for a person who has renounced this world, so even glancing over a woman with lust is also not allowed.

But Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . (indistinct) . . . gṛhastha s devotee, He was very kind. But gṛhastha is not hypocrite. Anyone who has got wife, it is understood he has sex life; so there is no hypocrisy. So one who poses himself, "I am sannyāsī, I am this, I am that," and within heart he is thinking of woman, that is hypocrisy. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not like.

English guest: That story is there as a warning for me.

Prabhupāda: Yes. For anyone. If you have desire to enjoy, then don't become a sannyāsī, brahmacārī. You become a married man, live peacefully with wife and children. That is allowed.

English guest: I see.

Prabhupāda: But don't become a hypocrite and live like a brahmacārī and think of women. This hypocrisy is like that. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's stricture. That "Why you are a hypocrisy?" In spiritual life hypocrisy is the worst qualification. Yes. There are four āśramas—brahmacārī āśrama, gṛhastha āśrama, vānaprastha āśrama, sannyāsa āśrama. So you gradually accept the āśramas and prepare yourself for the final . . . (indistinct)

But if you stay in one āśrama, you don't become hypocrite in relationship to that āśrama. You do it perfectly. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's majority of devotees were gṛhasthas, householder. He was Himself householder. He married twice. But that does not mean when He took sannyāsa He would see His wife. No. That is not allowed.

Indian lady guest: I thought that when you commit suicide you deny yourself to Vaikuṇṭha. Is that correct? . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: (explaining) She said if a person commits suicide, he is denied . . .

Prabhupāda: Not ordinary person. Just like a person playing in the theatrical stage, he commits suicide, but next moment he goes at home. (laughter) But on the stage he commits suicide. So when Kṛṣṇa comes along with His associates to preach something, so they play like ordinary man, but they are not ordinary men.

gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha boli māne,
se yāya rādhā-mādhava pāśa

All associates of God, they are not ordinary men. Nitya-siddha: they are eternally perfect. They are eternally perfect. But because God comes to teach us, so His associates also. Just like all the Kṛṣṇa's wifes were kidnapped when Kṛṣṇa departed. Arjuna was bringing them, and they were forcibly taken away by some ruffians. But the purpose was that they came to associate with Kṛṣṇa, so long Kṛṣṇa is here; then they also went to their respective planets. This song is sung by Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura:

gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha boli mane
se yaya rādhā-mādhava-antaraṅga
gṛhe bā vanete thāke, 'hā gaurāṅga' bo'le ḍāke
narottama māge tāra saṅga

Śyāmasundara: I'll see if Kṣīrodakśāyī is there downstairs?

Prabhupāda: Hmm yes. Let them come.

(break) . . . such. That means you are all gentlemen. (laughter) But not a single gentleman. It is to be supposed everyone is . . . (indistinct) . . . that means they are not a single gentleman.

Aiye . . . (indistinct) . . . (Come . . . (indistinct) . . .) (aside to devotee) You can bring one notebook so that all the gentlemen present, they can leave their names and addresses.

(break) . . . movement there is a great potency. Do you realize or not?

Indian guest: Of course we do.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is great potency, everywhere. So why not combinedly push on this movement? That is my request. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā (SB 10.22.35). Eh? The Bible society, the Christian missionaries, they spend crores of rupees, but here, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, by one man's attempt it has come to such an extent. Why not combine? What is your opinion about this? Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. Prāṇa, artha, buddhir, vācā.

Śyāmasundara: Should I give a short summary of the activities around the world?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: In the last year or so it has become increasingly apparent, especially in the West, to all people who have an eye out for these things, that this particular spiritual movement is coming to the forefront of all other spiritual movements in the whole world at this time. It will be the religion of the future, so to speak, especially among the young people.

Of all the movements that have begun in the 50's, 60's, 70's, this movement stands out as the one that is progressing more rapidly and more deep-rootedly than any other in the whole world, so far as spiritual culture is concerned. We saw on our last world tour, all the way from Africa to India to Asia, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Hawaii . . . everywhere we have got our centers . . .

Prabhupāda: Even in Moscow.

Śyāmasundara: Even in Moscow we have a half a dozen devotees, Russian boys, who have given up everything . . .

Prabhupāda: They are very much suppressed by the government; otherwise the young men are very much eager to take.

Śyāmasundara: Despite all difficulties they are chanting sixteen rounds a day, they have stopped eating meat in a country which is practically impossible to find any fruits and vegetables, and gradually our devotees are working there. So everywhere we have been, we have seen this revolution taking place.

Beyond any doubt now it comes out that this movement is growing in proportions that no one would have believed a few years back, but which now must be recognized by every intelligent man to be the most powerful force of its kind in the whole world today, because it is genuine, it is authoritative, it is scientific, it is not sentimental or fashionable, but Prabhupāda has made no compromise, any trends of the modern times. He is simply presenting Kṛṣṇa as He is, and because of this is that it is having effect, which has now proven itself all over the world.

So we have seen now there are over a hundred centers, each center like this one. You can go from one center to the next, and you will find the same things going on—the same ārati, the same kīrtana, the same prasāda being served, the same rising early at three-thirty, four o'clock, the same cleanliness, the same standard is being maintained in a hundred different places around the world, without any formal organization.

This is a great . . . industrialists marvel as how Prabhupāda has been able to organize in five years' time a worldwide organization with one hundred branches in which everything is going on smoothly and expansively in every center. So we understand this is because the sincerity of the devotees, and Prabhupāda has been able to instill the philosophy, Vedic philosophy, so that we follow it, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Mr. Parik knows how in London it was humbly bigger; they had no place. Now gradually how . . .

Mr. Parik: Yes. Within five years' time by Kṛṣṇa's grace, and by your efforts, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: It has got great potency. Now let us have a nice center in London. That is my proposal.

Śyāmasundara: London is the world's center.

Prabhupāda: First-class center. This so important city, and we have no first-class center. Why? There are so many Indians, so many oppos . . . even other . . . those who are opposite, it is open to everyone. We don't make such distinction, that "Hindu," "Muslim" or "Christian" or "Parsi." No. Everyone is welcome. So people are accepting. Now let us have . . . this place is very small. Let us have a very big state temple. What is the difficulty?

Mr. Parik: There is more poten . . . (break) (end)