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711125 - Conversation - Delhi: Difference between revisions

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m (Text replacement - "Prabhupāda:" to "'''Prabhupāda:'''")
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Dr. Singh: . . . ''śarīra''.
Dr. Singh: . . . ''śarīra''.


Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. The whole civilized activity is going on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. ''Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke'' ([[SB 10.84.13|SB 10.84.13]]) . . . (indistinct) . . . everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The ''karmīs'', I mean to say . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. The whole civilized activity is going on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. ''Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke'' ([[SB 10.84.13|SB 10.84.13]]) . . . (indistinct) . . . everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The ''karmīs'', I mean to say . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet.
   
   
Enjoying here nicely and they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies and doing pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to ''Vedas''. But all the . . . anywhere we go, material . . . these people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable.
Enjoying here nicely and they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies and doing pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to ''Vedas''. But all the . . . anywhere we go, material . . . these people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable.
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Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the ''Upaniṣads'', when they talk of this path . . . (indistinct) . . . ''yoga agni mayam shariram''. <span style="color:#ff9933">Nahi, unko kehna tha.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(No, this is what he meant to say.)</span> So if you . . . what does that mean?
Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the ''Upaniṣads'', when they talk of this path . . . (indistinct) . . . ''yoga agni mayam shariram''. <span style="color:#ff9933">Nahi, unko kehna tha.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(No, this is what he meant to say.)</span> So if you . . . what does that mean?


Prabhupāda: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. ''Yogam''.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. ''Yogam''.
   
   
Dr. Singh: ''Yoga agni māyām śarīraram''.
Dr. Singh: ''Yoga agni māyām śarīraram''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: ''Cinmaya-śarīra. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa''.
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Cinmaya-śarīra. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa''.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Coming now. This is my friend Sri Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady inviting . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: Coming now. This is my friend Sri Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady inviting . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Prabhupāda: ''Cinmaya'', ''cinmaya-śarīra'' we have got. In the ''Padma Purāṇa'', the length and breadth of this ''cinmaya-śarīra'' is given—one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. ''Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya'' (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9).
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Cinmaya'', ''cinmaya-śarīra'' we have got. In the ''Padma Purāṇa'', the length and breadth of this ''cinmaya-śarīra'' is given—one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. ''Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya'' (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9).
   
   
Dr. Singh: This is my wife.
Dr. Singh: This is my wife.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Ah, how are you?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah, how are you?
   
   
Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. Star one English friend of ours who is out . . . who is . . .
Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. Star one English friend of ours who is out . . . who is . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: (to lady) So why are you sitting down?
'''Prabhupāda:''' (to lady) So why are you sitting down?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right.
Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has taught therefore that:
'''Prabhupāda:''' Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has taught therefore that:
   
   
:''tṛṇād api sunīcena''
:''tṛṇād api sunīcena''
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Dr. Singh: ''Ahaṅkāra''.
Dr. Singh: ''Ahaṅkāra''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: ''Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā''. (Dr. Singh laughs) So humbleness is very good qualification. And in the ''Bible'' also it is said the humble and meek will reap the kingdom of God. I think you will find.
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā''. (Dr. Singh laughs) So humbleness is very good qualification. And in the ''Bible'' also it is said the humble and meek will reap the kingdom of God. I think you will find.
   
   
Devotee: Inherit the earth.
Devotee: Inherit the earth.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah, yes.
   
   
Devotee: "The meek shall inherit the earth."
Devotee: "The meek shall inherit the earth."
   
   
Prabhupāda: So this is . . . because our puffed-up condition on account of this body is illusion, because I am not this body. Therefore ''brahma-bhūtaḥ'', those who are self-realized, they are ''prasannātmā''. Any condition of life they are happy, jolly.
'''Prabhupāda:''' So this is . . . because our puffed-up condition on account of this body is illusion, because I am not this body. Therefore ''brahma-bhūtaḥ'', those who are self-realized, they are ''prasannātmā''. Any condition of life they are happy, jolly.
   
   
Dr. Singh: So Swāmījī, if er . . . if ''Īśa'' is everywhere, ''īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam'' ([[ISO 1|ISO 1]]), then surely He is in the body also.
Dr. Singh: So Swāmījī, if er . . . if ''Īśa'' is everywhere, ''īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam'' ([[ISO 1|ISO 1]]), then surely He is in the body also.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of of em, of em . . . care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on?
Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of of em, of em . . . care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Certainly. There are necessities. ''Yuktāhāra-vihārasya'' ([[BG 6.17 (1972)|BG 6.17]]). But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort, and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to . . . the body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, live on nature: you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment. So why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given (up) everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Certainly. There are necessities. ''Yuktāhāra-vihārasya'' ([[BG 6.17 (1972)|BG 6.17]]). But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort, and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to . . . the body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, live on nature: you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment. So why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given (up) everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything.
   
   
Dr. Singh: ''Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā''.
Dr. Singh: ''Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Ah, ''tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā'' ([[ISO 1|ISO 1]]).
'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah, ''tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā'' ([[ISO 1|ISO 1]]).


Dr. Singh: (chuckles) They simply take ''kṛṣṇa-prasādam''. They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died.
Dr. Singh: (chuckles) They simply take ''kṛṣṇa-prasādam''. They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died.
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Indian man: They look remarkably well, as a matter of fact.
Indian man: They look remarkably well, as a matter of fact.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.  
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.  


Dr. Singh: (laughs) Therefore they are now known in their country as the bright-faced.
Dr. Singh: (laughs) Therefore they are now known in their country as the bright-faced.
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Dr. Singh: Bright-faced.
Dr. Singh: Bright-faced.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: ''Ujjwala-mukha''.
Dr. Singh: ''Ujjwala-mukha''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes, ''ujjwala-mukha''. And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that, "Are you American?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in . . . gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that, "Swāmījī, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, ''ujjwala-mukha''. And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that, "Are you American?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in . . . gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that, "Swāmījī, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that.
   
   
Another priest, Christian priest, in New York . . . in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that, "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to . . .
Another priest, Christian priest, in New York . . . in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that, "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to . . .
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Dr. Singh: Would you have . . . (indistinct) . . .? We are having dinner later, of course. I thought maybe you would want something to start with.
Dr. Singh: Would you have . . . (indistinct) . . .? We are having dinner later, of course. I thought maybe you would want something to start with.
   
   
Prabhupāda: One glass of water will be fine.
'''Prabhupāda:''' One glass of water will be fine.
   
   
Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Pani de dijiye, unko de dijiye.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(Give it to him, give it to him.)</span> Only water? Only water, Swāmījī?
Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Pani de dijiye, unko de dijiye.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(Give it to him, give it to him.)</span> Only water? Only water, Swāmījī?


Prabhupāda: We can take. What is it?  
'''Prabhupāda:''' We can take. What is it?  


Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Inko do, jo bhi inko dena ho.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(Give it to him, whatever you have.)</span>
Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Inko do, jo bhi inko dena ho.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(Give it to him, whatever you have.)</span>


Prabhupāda: <span style="color:#ff9933">Kya chiz hai?</span> <span style="color:#128807">(What is this?)</span>
'''Prabhupāda:''' <span style="color:#ff9933">Kya chiz hai?</span> <span style="color:#128807">(What is this?)</span>


Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Kuch hai, ye anna jaisa hai. (aside) Ye rehne do, ye kyu . . . (indistinct) . . . unki habit nahi.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(It is similar to rice. (aside) Just leave it, why did you . . . not in his habit.)</span> We have made a truly sattvic ''bhojana'' today, so there is no problem.
Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Kuch hai, ye anna jaisa hai. (aside) Ye rehne do, ye kyu . . . (indistinct) . . . unki habit nahi.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(It is similar to rice. (aside) Just leave it, why did you . . . not in his habit.)</span> We have made a truly sattvic ''bhojana'' today, so there is no problem.
   
   
Prabhupāda: I am very glad to see original ''kṣatriya''. (Dr. Singh laughs) ''Rājarṣi''.
'''Prabhupāda:''' I am very glad to see original ''kṣatriya''. (Dr. Singh laughs) ''Rājarṣi''.
   
   
Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Rajarshi to kya hai lekin ye Raghuvamsha ka hai avashya.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(I don't know if I am a ''rājarṣi'' or not, but surely we are from Raghuvaṁśa.)</span>
Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Rajarshi to kya hai lekin ye Raghuvamsha ka hai avashya.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(I don't know if I am a ''rājarṣi'' or not, but surely we are from Raghuvaṁśa.)</span>
   
   
Prabhupāda: <span style="color:#ff9933">Nahi, ap hi ka hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(No, you definitely belong to their lineage.)</span> Your generation are ''kṣatriya''. Actually we give stress in our civilization, ''brahmin and kṣatriya''. ''Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā'' ([[BG 9.33 (1972)|BG 9.33]]). And Kṛṣṇa says, ''evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ'' ([[BG 4.2 (1972)|BG 4.2]]). <span style="color:#ff9933">Yehi to hum log ka durbhagya ho gaya.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(This is our great misfortune.)</span> We have lost our ''kṣatriyas'', we have lost our . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' <span style="color:#ff9933">Nahi, ap hi ka hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(No, you definitely belong to their lineage.)</span> Your generation are ''kṣatriya''. Actually we give stress in our civilization, ''brahmin and kṣatriya''. ''Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā'' ([[BG 9.33 (1972)|BG 9.33]]). And Kṛṣṇa says, ''evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ'' ([[BG 4.2 (1972)|BG 4.2]]). <span style="color:#ff9933">Yehi to hum log ka durbhagya ho gaya.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(This is our great misfortune.)</span> We have lost our ''kṣatriyas'', we have lost our . . .
   
   
Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Kshatra bal nahi raha, kshatra dharma nahi raha.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(''Kṣatriyas'' don't possess any prowess now, nor do they have the ''kṣatriya'' religiosity.)</span>
Dr. Singh: <span style="color:#ff9933">Kshatra bal nahi raha, kshatra dharma nahi raha.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(''Kṣatriyas'' don't possess any prowess now, nor do they have the ''kṣatriya'' religiosity.)</span>
   
   
Prabhupāda: <span style="color:#ff9933">To isliye . . .</span> <span style="color:#128807">(That's why . . .)</span> the Vedic civilization is lost. The ''kṣatriyas'' are considered to be the arms.
'''Prabhupāda:''' <span style="color:#ff9933">To isliye . . .</span> <span style="color:#128807">(That's why . . .)</span> the Vedic civilization is lost. The ''kṣatriyas'' are considered to be the arms.
   
   
Dr. Singh: And also the . . .
Dr. Singh: And also the . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: And the ''brahmins'' the head.
'''Prabhupāda:''' And the ''brahmins'' the head.
   
   
Dr. Singh: But in the ''Upaniṣads'', as you know, there are many cases in which the ''brāhmaṇas'' had to go to the ''kṣatriyas'' for knowledge. You remember?
Dr. Singh: But in the ''Upaniṣads'', as you know, there are many cases in which the ''brāhmaṇas'' had to go to the ''kṣatriyas'' for knowledge. You remember?
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Indian man: Fourth Chapter of ''Gītā'' . . . (indistinct) . . . Fourth Chapter of ''Gītā'' . . . (indistinct) . . . the knowledge is being handed over.
Indian man: Fourth Chapter of ''Gītā'' . . . (indistinct) . . . Fourth Chapter of ''Gītā'' . . . (indistinct) . . . the knowledge is being handed over.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Handed down.
Dr. Singh: Handed down.
   
   
Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. ''Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ'' ([[BG 4.2 (1972)|BG 4.2]]). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respect.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That I have spoken. ''Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ'' ([[BG 4.2 (1972)|BG 4.2]]). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respect.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Sretaketu also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity.
Dr. Singh: Sretaketu also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Because it is genuine.
   
   
Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs)
Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs)
   
   
Prabhupāda: I want to revive ''brahminism'', ''kṣatriya-ism''. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. ''Dharma''. ''Dharma'' means this classification ''dharma''. There are two kinds of ''dharmas''. One, material ''dharma'', and another, spiritual ''dharma''. Actually, ''dharma'' means spiritual.
'''Prabhupāda:''' I want to revive ''brahminism'', ''kṣatriya-ism''. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. ''Dharma''. ''Dharma'' means this classification ''dharma''. There are two kinds of ''dharmas''. One, material ''dharma'', and another, spiritual ''dharma''. Actually, ''dharma'' means spiritual.
   
   
But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual ''dharma'', we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material ''dharma'' is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'', ''cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ'' ([[BG 4.13 (1972)|BG 4.13]]).
But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual ''dharma'', we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material ''dharma'' is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'', ''cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ'' ([[BG 4.13 (1972)|BG 4.13]]).
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Dr. Singh: ''Guṇa-karma vibhādayo''.
Dr. Singh: ''Guṇa-karma vibhādayo''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: So the ''brahmin's dharma'', the ''kṣatriya's dharma'', the ''vaiśya's dharma'' and the ''śūdra's dharma''.
'''Prabhupāda:''' So the ''brahmin's dharma'', the ''kṣatriya's dharma'', the ''vaiśya's dharma'' and the ''śūdra's dharma''.
   
   
Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swāmījī, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore a man must be . . . he must have the knowledge.
Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swāmījī, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore a man must be . . . he must have the knowledge.
   
   
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is a fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
   
   
Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the ''guṇas''.
Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the ''guṇas''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Integration of ''guṇas'', ''sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate'' ([[BG 14.26 (1972)|BG 14.26]]). That . . . that is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three ''guṇas''. ''Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā''. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of ''guṇas—sattva'', ''raja'', ''tama guṇa''. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of ''nistraiguṇya'', ''nirguṇa''.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Integration of ''guṇas'', ''sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate'' ([[BG 14.26 (1972)|BG 14.26]]). That . . . that is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three ''guṇas''. ''Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā''. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of ''guṇas—sattva'', ''raja'', ''tama guṇa''. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of ''nistraiguṇya'', ''nirguṇa''.
   
   
Dr. Singh: ''Caturthaḥ''.
Dr. Singh: ''Caturthaḥ''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: ''Caturthaḥ'' platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says:
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Caturthaḥ'' platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says:
   
   
:''māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa''
:''māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa''
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Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have for example . . . he's got to have his . . . he's got to have knowledge of the ''dharma''. He's got to have the capacity to act . . .
Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have for example . . . he's got to have his . . . he's got to have knowledge of the ''dharma''. He's got to have the capacity to act . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: . . . of the ''kṣatriya''.
Dr. Singh: . . . of the ''kṣatriya''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and <span style="color:#ff9933">Nipuṇāta . . .</span> <span style="color:#128807">(perfect skills . . .)</span> for example, and service.
Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and <span style="color:#ff9933">Nipuṇāta . . .</span> <span style="color:#128807">(perfect skills . . .)</span> for example, and service.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes, that, that, that . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that, that, that . . .
   
   
Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?
Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?
   
   
Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if, if you are a ''kṣatriya'', you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. That is not possible. Suppose if, if you are a ''kṣatriya'', you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.
   
   
Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally, which is equally (laughs) hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.
Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally, which is equally (laughs) hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Of course, you cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class. Manager class. They cannot do without it. Must be there . . . someone must be there manager. So this, this division of the society . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' Of course, you cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class. Manager class. They cannot do without it. Must be there . . . someone must be there manager. So this, this division of the society . . .
   
   
Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the legs, nor the leg can do the work of the head.
Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the legs, nor the leg can do the work of the head.
Line 203: Line 203:
Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swāmījī . . .
Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swāmījī . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: That is, that is wanted.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is, that is wanted.
   
   
Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted.
Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted.
   
   
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be in ''brahmin'' or either you may be ''kṣatriya'', either you may be ''vaiśya'' or ''śūdra'', it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'': ''ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ''. ''Vibhāgaśa'' is accepted, ''varna āśrama''. ''Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya''. Now everyone has got particular duty to perform. ''Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam'' ([[SB 1.2.13|SB 1.2.13]]). You remain ''kṣatriya'', you remain ''brahmin'', you remain ''śūdra'', it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be in ''brahmin'' or either you may be ''kṣatriya'', either you may be ''vaiśya'' or ''śūdra'', it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'': ''ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ''. ''Vibhāgaśa'' is accepted, ''varna āśrama''. ''Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya''. Now everyone has got particular duty to perform. ''Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam'' ([[SB 1.2.13|SB 1.2.13]]). You remain ''kṣatriya'', you remain ''brahmin'', you remain ''śūdra'', it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted.
   
   
Therefore, Arjuna. He remained a ''kṣatriya''. He was a fighter; he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said: "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was . . . he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, ''śiṣyas te 'ham'' ([[BG 2.7 (1972)|BG 2.7]]), "Now I am puzzled, I do not . . . I am . . ." Yes. ''Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ''.
Therefore, Arjuna. He remained a ''kṣatriya''. He was a fighter; he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said: "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was . . . he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, ''śiṣyas te 'ham'' ([[BG 2.7 (1972)|BG 2.7]]), "Now I am puzzled, I do not . . . I am . . ." Yes. ''Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ''.
Line 213: Line 213:
Dr. Singh: ''Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ''.
Dr. Singh: ''Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him ''Bhagavad-gītā''. So he remained a ''kṣatriya''. But Kṛṣṇa certified, ''bhakto 'si priyo 'si'' ([[BG 4.3 (1972)|BG 4.3]]). So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are ''kṣatriya'', ''brahmin'', ''kṣatriya''. It doesn't matter.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Then Kṛṣṇa taught him ''Bhagavad-gītā''. So he remained a ''kṣatriya''. But Kṛṣṇa certified, ''bhakto 'si priyo 'si'' ([[BG 4.3 (1972)|BG 4.3]]). So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are ''kṣatriya'', ''brahmin'', ''kṣatriya''. It doesn't matter.
   
   
Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied.
Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Eh?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already.
Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.
   
   
Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by . . . by connecting.
Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by . . . by connecting.
   
   
Prabhupāda: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. ''Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ'' ([[BG 15.7 (1972)|BG 15.7]]). So we are parts and . . . if we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. ''Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ'' ([[BG 15.7 (1972)|BG 15.7]]). So we are parts and . . . if we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy.
   
   
Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true ''dharma''.
Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true ''dharma''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body . . . suppose I want to scratch here; a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. ''Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam'' ([[BG 13.8-12 (1972)|BG 13.9]]). Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased.
'''Prabhupāda:''' If this finger does not satisfy my body . . . suppose I want to scratch here; a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. ''Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam'' ([[BG 13.8-12 (1972)|BG 13.9]]). Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life?
Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take . . . just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take . . . just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual.
   
   
Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it.
Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . that is the definition of ''bhakti''. ''Bhakti'' means ''hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate'' ([[CC Madhya 19.170|CC Madhya 19.170]]). ''Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ'', that is ''bhakti''. Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king; if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he must have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa, provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. That . . . that is the definition of ''bhakti''. ''Bhakti'' means ''hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate'' ([[CC Madhya 19.170|CC Madhya 19.170]]). ''Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ'', that is ''bhakti''. Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king; if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he must have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa, provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. That qualification . . . love of Kṛṣṇa is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. That qualification . . . love of Kṛṣṇa is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification?
   
   
''Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam'' ([[CC Madhya 19.170|CC Madhya 19.170]]): when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated, "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, ''sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ'', that is mukti: "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are?
''Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam'' ([[CC Madhya 19.170|CC Madhya 19.170]]): when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated, "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, ''sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ'', that is mukti: "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are?
Line 247: Line 247:
Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) ''śivo 'ham, śivo'' . . .
Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) ''śivo 'ham, śivo'' . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." ''Śivo 'ham'' is the beginning. ''Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi'', that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, "Then what is my duty?" This perception that I am Śiva or Maṅgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty?
'''Prabhupāda:''' What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." ''Śivo 'ham'' is the beginning. ''Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi'', that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, "Then what is my duty?" This perception that I am Śiva or Maṅgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty?
   
   
Now I am working now with the bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this or not that, I am ''śivo 'ham'', or ''brahmāsmi'', or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your purest. ''Tat-paratvena nirmalam''.
Now I am working now with the bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this or not that, I am ''śivo 'ham'', or ''brahmāsmi'', or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your purest. ''Tat-paratvena nirmalam''.
Line 273: Line 273:
Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there.
Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there.
   
   
Prabhupāda: No, not so.
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, not so.
   
   
Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil.
Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil.
   
   
Prabhupāda: No.
'''Prabhupāda:''' No.
   
   
Dr. Singh: If you read Chanakya ''niti'' and all.
Dr. Singh: If you read Chanakya ''niti'' and all.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Chanakya ''niti'', it is of course about some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we have . . . we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, after many millions of years passed.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Chanakya ''niti'', it is of course about some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we have . . . we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, after many millions of years passed.
   
   
Dr. Singh: So it was recorded war.
Dr. Singh: So it was recorded war.
   
   
Prabhupāda: That, that's all right. Er, er . . . recorded means. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is something fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world . . . because India, or ''Bhārata-varṣa'', means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That, that's all right. Er, er . . . recorded means. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is something fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world . . . because India, or ''Bhārata-varṣa'', means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut.
   
   
This, this planet is called ''Bhārata-varṣa''. Formerly it was known as ''Ilāvṛta-varṣa''. Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata . . . you know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called ''Bhārata-varṣa''. And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this first to last, then gradually . . . why? The culture was lost.
This, this planet is called ''Bhārata-varṣa''. Formerly it was known as ''Ilāvṛta-varṣa''. Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata . . . you know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called ''Bhārata-varṣa''. And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this first to last, then gradually . . . why? The culture was lost.
Line 317: Line 317:
Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa?
Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Eh?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa rather than to unite the world?
Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa rather than to unite the world?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Well, unless you are united with Kṛṣṇa, how you can teach the world to become united?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Well, unless you are united with Kṛṣṇa, how you can teach the world to become united?
   
   
Dr. Singh: But should one teach the world to become united . . . (indistinct) . . . with Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . .?
Dr. Singh: But should one teach the world to become united . . . (indistinct) . . . with Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . .?
   
   
Prabhupāda: To become happy. To be happy. To become really happy. ''Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ'' ([[BG 6.20-23 (1972)|BG 6.22]]). Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . ."
'''Prabhupāda:''' To become happy. To be happy. To become really happy. ''Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ'' ([[BG 6.20-23 (1972)|BG 6.22]]). Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . ."
   
   
Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Kṛṣṇa.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later.
Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later.
   
   
Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. Just like, what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after?
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. Side by side. Just like, what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Kṛṣṇa first . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is the first priority?
Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Kṛṣṇa first . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is the first priority?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?
   
   
Dr. Singh: First priority is to try . . .
Dr. Singh: First priority is to try . . .
Line 343: Line 343:
(break) . . . function.
(break) . . . function.
   
   
Prabhupāda: What, what do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you.
'''Prabhupāda:''' What, what do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you.
   
   
Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swāmījī, about the unification of the world.
Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swāmījī, about the unification of the world.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy—happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say ''brahmin'' class, you say intelligent class. But, do you agree that in the world there is a intelligent class of men?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy—happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say ''brahmin'' class, you say intelligent class. But, do you agree that in the world there is a intelligent class of men?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work.
Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Everyone is working.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Everyone is working.
   
   
Dr. Singh: They can do . . . they can be very good worker.
Dr. Singh: They can do . . . they can be very good worker.
   
   
Prabhupāda: When your brain . . . brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work.
'''Prabhupāda:''' When your brain . . . brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes.
Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone.
   
   
Dr. Singh: They can fight also.
Dr. Singh: They can fight also.
   
   
Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that, "Here is a enemy," so hand immediately raised. Brain gives direction that, "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is ''kṣatriya''. And the belly supplies food in that, ''vaiśya''. And the legs, ''śūdra'', carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain.
'''Prabhupāda:''' But just like the brain says that, "Here is a enemy," so hand immediately raised. Brain gives direction that, "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is ''kṣatriya''. And the belly supplies food in that, ''vaiśya''. And the legs, ''śūdra'', carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain.
   
   
Therefore, first of all duty is there must be a intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class.
Therefore, first of all duty is there must be a intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class.
Line 373: Line 373:
Dr. Singh: When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy?
Dr. Singh: When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. Even this a material ecstacy . . . that ecstacy, spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding ''Bhagavad-gītā'', when he became Kṛṣṇa conscious, he fought. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to act under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. Even this a material ecstacy . . . that ecstacy, spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding ''Bhagavad-gītā'', when he became Kṛṣṇa conscious, he fought. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to act under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.
   
   
Dr. Singh: An interesting thing struck me the other day, Swāmījī, about the ''Bhagavad-gītā'', that whether Arjuna would have fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place.
Dr. Singh: An interesting thing struck me the other day, Swāmījī, about the ''Bhagavad-gītā'', that whether Arjuna would have fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?
   
   
Dr. Singh: I don't know whether Arjuna fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place, because both the armies were there, the conches had been sounded. So Arjuna's decision was not whether there should be war or whether there should not be war. Arjuna's decision was only whether he should fight or he should not fight.
Dr. Singh: I don't know whether Arjuna fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place, because both the armies were there, the conches had been sounded. So Arjuna's decision was not whether there should be war or whether there should not be war. Arjuna's decision was only whether he should fight or he should not fight.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that . . .
   
   
Dr. Singh: But the more difficult decision is whether there should be war, whether there should not be war. Because Arjuna only came into it . . . (indistinct) . . . you consider it, only at the time when everything had already been decided, the armies had been brought.
Dr. Singh: But the more difficult decision is whether there should be war, whether there should not be war. Because Arjuna only came into it . . . (indistinct) . . . you consider it, only at the time when everything had already been decided, the armies had been brought.
   
   
Prabhupāda: That everything was done by Kṛṣṇa.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That everything was done by Kṛṣṇa.
   
   
Dr. Singh: When He went as a ''duta'' (messenger). That to my mind is even the more important aspect of this whole story, because it . . .
Dr. Singh: When He went as a ''duta'' (messenger). That to my mind is even the more important aspect of this whole story, because it . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Kṛṣṇa called him foolish; it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him ''Bhagavad-gītā''. And when he came to his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that, "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." ''Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin'' ([[BG 11.33 (1972)|BG 11.33]]). So this plan was made by Kṛṣṇa, and there was no other alternative.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Kṛṣṇa called him foolish; it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him ''Bhagavad-gītā''. And when he came to his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that, "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." ''Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin'' ([[BG 11.33 (1972)|BG 11.33]]). So this plan was made by Kṛṣṇa, and there was no other alternative.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Kṛṣṇa there to tell him what the plan was.
Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Kṛṣṇa there to tell him what the plan was.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Arjuna.
Dr. Singh: Arjuna.
   
   
Prabhupāda: So everyone can become happy like Arjuna if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. I was studying your book.
'''Prabhupāda:''' So everyone can become happy like Arjuna if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. I was studying your book.
   
   
Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swāmījī?
Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swāmījī?
   
   
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi)
'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . (indistinct Hindi)
   
   
Dr. Singh: This one? Oh! Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture.
Dr. Singh: This one? Oh! Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture.
Line 409: Line 409:
Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swāmījī to sign your books. I have got all your books.
Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swāmījī to sign your books. I have got all your books.
   
   
Prabhupāda: So some of the points some of the points . . . what was the points?
'''Prabhupāda:''' So some of the points some of the points . . . what was the points?
   
   
Śyāmasundara: The . . . that every statement of Hinduism in the context of the nuclear age assumes tremendous importance.
Śyāmasundara: The . . . that every statement of Hinduism in the context of the nuclear age assumes tremendous importance.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that we are doing.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So that we are doing.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Yes.
Dr. Singh: Yes.
   
   
Prabhupāda: We are giving shape to your philosophy. Just like it was the conception that in India there are brahmins only. Amongst the Hindus, there are brahmins.
'''Prabhupāda:''' We are giving shape to your philosophy. Just like it was the conception that in India there are brahmins only. Amongst the Hindus, there are brahmins.
   
   
Dr. Singh: All ''brāhmaṇas'' . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs)
Dr. Singh: All ''brāhmaṇas'' . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs)
   
   
Prabhupāda: It was not? Now we are creating ''brahmins'' from America, from Australia. Is it not re-creation of . . . (indistinct) . . .?
'''Prabhupāda:''' It was not? Now we are creating ''brahmins'' from America, from Australia. Is it not re-creation of . . . (indistinct) . . .?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Restatement of Hinduism.
Dr. Singh: Restatement of Hinduism.
Line 427: Line 427:
Śyāmasundara: He has always been open to creative reinterpretation.
Śyāmasundara: He has always been open to creative reinterpretation.
   
   
Prabhupāda: This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting ''brahmins'', ''kṣatriyas''—especially ''brahmin''—from every community.
'''Prabhupāda:''' This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting ''brahmins'', ''kṣatriyas''—especially ''brahmin''—from every community.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any ''kīrtana'' tonight? What is the program, or do we . . .
Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any ''kīrtana'' tonight? What is the program, or do we . . .
Line 435: Line 435:
Dr. Singh: As Swāmījī wishes.
Dr. Singh: As Swāmījī wishes.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes, ''kīrtana''.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, ''kīrtana''.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Shall I, before dinner, before food.
Dr. Singh: Shall I, before dinner, before food.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is very interesting, scientific. So I would like all intelligent men to come and join this movement.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So it is very interesting, scientific. So I would like all intelligent men to come and join this movement.
   
   
Dr. Singh: It is a great knowledge. It is a great thunderbolt. It is a great gift . . . (indistinct Sanskrit)
Dr. Singh: It is a great knowledge. It is a great thunderbolt. It is a great gift . . . (indistinct Sanskrit)
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. We can answer any philosophy.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. We can answer any philosophy.
   
   
Devotee: We have a . . .
Devotee: We have a . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: ''Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ'', ''kecit'' . . . there is a verse that there are many means and ways to rectify the world situation. But simply by accepting this bhakti cult, everything can be solved. The example is given, ''nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ''. Just like there is fog—if there is sunlight, immediately dissipated. You cannot dissipate it in any other way. You may have some scientific process that this way and that way . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ'', ''kecit'' . . . there is a verse that there are many means and ways to rectify the world situation. But simply by accepting this bhakti cult, everything can be solved. The example is given, ''nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ''. Just like there is fog—if there is sunlight, immediately dissipated. You cannot dissipate it in any other way. You may have some scientific process that this way and that way . . .
   
   
Dr. Singh: Anti-pollution.
Dr. Singh: Anti-pollution.
   
   
Prabhupāda: So this one stroke will clear everything. So my appeal to all intelligent class of men is, "Come here, talk about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy and accept it and execute it." That is my appeal.
'''Prabhupāda:''' So this one stroke will clear everything. So my appeal to all intelligent class of men is, "Come here, talk about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy and accept it and execute it." That is my appeal.
   
   
(aside) All right, have some ''kīrtana''.
(aside) All right, have some ''kīrtana''.
Line 459: Line 459:
Dr. Singh: Really. Before I was born, Swāmījī.
Dr. Singh: Really. Before I was born, Swāmījī.
   
   
Prabhupāda: What is your birthday?
'''Prabhupāda:''' What is your birthday?
   
   
Dr. Singh: '31, 1931. (laughs)
Dr. Singh: '31, 1931. (laughs)
   
   
Prabhupāda: And your father's?
'''Prabhupāda:''' And your father's?
   
   
Dr. Singh: My father must have been born in 1895. He passed away. My parents have passed away.
Dr. Singh: My father must have been born in 1895. He passed away. My parents have passed away.
   
   
Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896.
'''Prabhupāda:''' I was born in 1896.
   
   
Dr. Singh: '96, So I was seeing here. He was born on about the same date. How do we organize this? Are you going to do it, or what's going to happen? Do you sit where you are, or do you group together? (to Mālatī) What do you want? A piece of paper?
Dr. Singh: '96, So I was seeing here. He was born on about the same date. How do we organize this? Are you going to do it, or what's going to happen? Do you sit where you are, or do you group together? (to Mālatī) What do you want? A piece of paper?
Line 473: Line 473:
Devotee: She wants to write the words of the ''mantra'' on a piece of paper.
Devotee: She wants to write the words of the ''mantra'' on a piece of paper.
   
   
Prabhupāda: What is that? Hare Kṛṣṇa?
'''Prabhupāda:''' What is that? Hare Kṛṣṇa?
   
   
(indistinct discussion by devotees about writing words) Write. Write. Give her. (break)
(indistinct discussion by devotees about writing words) Write. Write. Give her. (break)
Line 481: Line 481:
Dr. Singh: . . . Harrison. So our devotees, they . . . (indistinct) . . . that singer of the Beatles.
Dr. Singh: . . . Harrison. So our devotees, they . . . (indistinct) . . . that singer of the Beatles.
   
   
Prabhupāda: He gave me nineteen thousand dollars.
'''Prabhupāda:''' He gave me nineteen thousand dollars.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Did he?
Dr. Singh: Did he?
   
   
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)
'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . "Words from Apple."
Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . "Words from Apple."
   
   
Prabhupāda: This boy contacted, Śyāmasundara . . . (indistinct) . . . find out.
'''Prabhupāda:''' This boy contacted, Śyāmasundara . . . (indistinct) . . . find out.
   
   
Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . (reading) "Śrīman George Harrison, Śyāmasundara dāsa Adhikārī, Śrīman Brahmānanda dāsa Brahmacārī, Hayagrīva dāsa Adhikārī, <span style="color:#ff9933">Nam bade bade sundar apne chune hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(You have selected very beautiful big big names.)</span> (laughs), Śrīmate Devahūti devī, Śrīmate Jadurāṇī dāsī." You are Devahūti?
Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . (reading) "Śrīman George Harrison, Śyāmasundara dāsa Adhikārī, Śrīman Brahmānanda dāsa Brahmacārī, Hayagrīva dāsa Adhikārī, <span style="color:#ff9933">Nam bade bade sundar apne chune hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(You have selected very beautiful big big names.)</span> (laughs), Śrīmate Devahūti devī, Śrīmate Jadurāṇī dāsī." You are Devahūti?
Line 497: Line 497:
Dr. Singh: "Śrīman Muralī dāsa . . . Muralīdhara dāsa and Bharadrāja dāsa." Bharadrāja dāsa, "Pradyumna dāsa Adhikārī."
Dr. Singh: "Śrīman Muralī dāsa . . . Muralīdhara dāsa and Bharadrāja dāsa." Bharadrāja dāsa, "Pradyumna dāsa Adhikārī."
   
   
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all of them work for this movement.
'''Prabhupāda:''' (indistinct) . . . all of them work for this movement.
   
   
Dr. Singh: It is your power working through all of them, I am sure.
Dr. Singh: It is your power working through all of them, I am sure.
Line 505: Line 505:
Dr. Singh: ''Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ'' ([[BG 3.21 (1972)|BG 3.21]]). That is . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: ''Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ'' ([[BG 3.21 (1972)|BG 3.21]]). That is . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Prabhupāda: That is scientific. Our ''śreṣṭha jan'' (those who are leading us) has gone to hell. How the people will come to . . . (indistinct) . . .? They don't care for God. Godless existence  . . . (indistinct) . . . by the grace of Kṛṣṇa we are . . . humanity . . . trying to be . . . (indistinct)
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is scientific. Our ''śreṣṭha jan'' (those who are leading us) has gone to hell. How the people will come to . . . (indistinct) . . .? They don't care for God. Godless existence  . . . (indistinct) . . . by the grace of Kṛṣṇa we are . . . humanity . . . trying to be . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . difficult to do but I, one's own way one tries. What a man is Śrī Caitanya.
Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . difficult to do but I, one's own way one tries. What a man is Śrī Caitanya.
   
   
Prabhupāda: I said that our government should give me facility for . . . (indistinct)
'''Prabhupāda:''' I said that our government should give me facility for . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Dr. Singh: I know him very well. He's a very good friend of mine, Swami Raghunatha though I am not . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: I know him very well. He's a very good friend of mine, Swami Raghunatha though I am not . . . (indistinct)


Prabhupāda: what I am not.
'''Prabhupāda:''' what I am not.


Dr. Singh: (laughs) a cadre, a cadre . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: (laughs) a cadre, a cadre . . . (indistinct)


Prabhupāda:  What, what fault I have?
'''Prabhupāda:''' What, what fault I have?
   
   
Dr. Singh: (laughs) Except that he keeps going round and round, and he lives in India.
Dr. Singh: (laughs) Except that he keeps going round and round, and he lives in India.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Does he, does he move better than me or less?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Does he, does he move better than me or less?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Much less, but he comes back to India all the time—he's based in India.
Dr. Singh: Much less, but he comes back to India all the time—he's based in India.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Because he has no followers. (laughter) Nobody will give him place.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Because he has no followers. (laughter) Nobody will give him place.


Dr. Singh:  Even I can give him . . .  (indistinct) . . . I can stay anywhere. I have got so many houses.
Dr. Singh:  Even I can give him . . .  (indistinct) . . . I can stay anywhere. I have got so many houses.
Line 531: Line 531:
Mālatī: You may also come and stay in any of our houses.
Mālatī: You may also come and stay in any of our houses.
   
   
Prabhupāda: So these things are to be considered. What contribution he can give? And he is given all certificates, and I am not certified?
'''Prabhupāda:''' So these things are to be considered. What contribution he can give? And he is given all certificates, and I am not certified?
   
   
Dr. Singh: The government of India has not in any way helped this movement, has it?
Dr. Singh: The government of India has not in any way helped this movement, has it?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Not a single farthing. Why this . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' Not a single farthing. Why this . . .
   
   
Śyāmasundara: In fact, they try in many ways to stop it, retard our progress.
Śyāmasundara: In fact, they try in many ways to stop it, retard our progress.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Rather they, they, they are always after me, "Oh, why you are here? Go away, go away."
'''Prabhupāda:''' Rather they, they, they are always after me, "Oh, why you are here? Go away, go away."
   
   
Dr. Singh: Do they say that?
Dr. Singh: Do they say that?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know, but that is their minor point. Immediately that . . . (indistinct) . . . said . . . what is that? "No foreigner can stay there?"
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. I do not know, but that is their minor point. Immediately that . . . (indistinct) . . . said . . . what is that? "No foreigner can stay there?"
   
   
Śyāmasundara: In Nadia.
Śyāmasundara: In Nadia.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Nadia. I do not know whether it is there. So we are being indirectly disturbed.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Nadia. I do not know whether it is there. So we are being indirectly disturbed.
   
   
Dr. Singh: That must be because this, got trouble there, and the foreigners . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: That must be because this, got trouble there, and the foreigners . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Prabhupāda: But what must they . . . they should, government should know what I am doing. Whole world is appreciating, except my government. It's so unfortunate.
'''Prabhupāda:''' But what must they . . . they should, government should know what I am doing. Whole world is appreciating, except my government. It's so unfortunate.
   
   
Dr. Singh: It is always the home is the last one always. You know what happens with prophets come. (laughs) They are always respected more abroad.
Dr. Singh: It is always the home is the last one always. You know what happens with prophets come. (laughs) They are always respected more abroad.
Line 557: Line 557:
Mālatī: But the point is, we are . . . he is taking from this country the greatest thing and giving. It is not like he is exploiting in some materialistic effort. Rather, he is giving the greatest thing from this country.
Mālatī: But the point is, we are . . . he is taking from this country the greatest thing and giving. It is not like he is exploiting in some materialistic effort. Rather, he is giving the greatest thing from this country.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Recently one paper has remarked that, "Such an important man is going unnoticed." They remarked like that.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Recently one paper has remarked that, "Such an important man is going unnoticed." They remarked like that.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Here?
Dr. Singh: Here?
   
   
Prabhupāda: No. Where it is?
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. Where it is?
   
   
Mālatī: Boston.
Mālatī: Boston.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Boston. Also in Buffalo.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Boston. Also in Buffalo.
   
   
Mālatī: Buffalo, yes.
Mālatī: Buffalo, yes.
Line 577: Line 577:
Dr. Singh: His loss. When we have Kṛṣṇa, who needs the Pope? (laughs)
Dr. Singh: His loss. When we have Kṛṣṇa, who needs the Pope? (laughs)
   
   
Prabhupāda: I may not think that, but I wanted to see. He is a head of a very great religion, so I want to bring cooperation, I offered my cooperation and he sided me, so I have to struggle with so many difficulties, at this age different means and everything. Handicap. Still I am . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' I may not think that, but I wanted to see. He is a head of a very great religion, so I want to bring cooperation, I offered my cooperation and he sided me, so I have to struggle with so many difficulties, at this age different means and everything. Handicap. Still I am . . .
   
   
Dr. Singh: Are there many Indian-born disciples abroad, or are they mainly Western disciples?
Dr. Singh: Are there many Indian-born disciples abroad, or are they mainly Western disciples?
   
   
Prabhupāda: No, there are many Indians.
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, there are many Indians.
   
   
Mālatī: In England there are many. They go now. They are from Muslim families and they are from . . .
Mālatī: In England there are many. They go now. They are from Muslim families and they are from . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: The Indians take it lightly. They say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa. But we have a life outside."
'''Prabhupāda:''' The Indians take it lightly. They say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa. But we have a life outside."
   
   
Dr. Singh: That is the . . . I think you're quite right, due to that is what they do.
Dr. Singh: That is the . . . I think you're quite right, due to that is what they do.
   
   
Prabhupāda: They have learned everything.
'''Prabhupāda:''' They have learned everything.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Kṛṣṇa or not?
Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Kṛṣṇa or not?
   
   
Prabhupāda: <span style="color:#ff9933">Sab janta Lawrence.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.)</span> In Bengal there is called sab janta Lawrence. There was Mr. Lawrence . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' <span style="color:#ff9933">Sab janta Lawrence.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.)</span> In Bengal there is called sab janta Lawrence. There was Mr. Lawrence . . .
   
   
Dr. Singh: (laughs) <span style="color:#ff9933">Sab janta Lawrence.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.)</span>
Dr. Singh: (laughs) <span style="color:#ff9933">Sab janta Lawrence.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.)</span>


Prabhupāda: <span style="color:#ff9933">Wo sab janta hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(He knows everything.)</span>
'''Prabhupāda:''' <span style="color:#ff9933">Wo sab janta hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(He knows everything.)</span>


Dr. Singh: (laughs) <span style="color:#ff9933">Pani tray le ao.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(Please bring the tray of water.)</span>
Dr. Singh: (laughs) <span style="color:#ff9933">Pani tray le ao.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(Please bring the tray of water.)</span>
   
   
Prabhupāda: So our Indian people are sab janta Lawrence. <span style="color:#ff9933">Sab kuch janta hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(They know everything.)</span>
'''Prabhupāda:''' So our Indian people are sab janta Lawrence. <span style="color:#ff9933">Sab kuch janta hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(They know everything.)</span>
   
   
Dr. Singh: (still laughing) That is true. Here everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . is brought up with Hare Kṛṣṇa. <span style="color:#ff9933">Ek hi shiksha nayi baatein khatam ho jati hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(The same old conceptions finish any scope for advanced understanding.)</span>
Dr. Singh: (still laughing) That is true. Here everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . is brought up with Hare Kṛṣṇa. <span style="color:#ff9933">Ek hi shiksha nayi baatein khatam ho jati hai.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(The same old conceptions finish any scope for advanced understanding.)</span>


Prabhupāda: That is true. That must be one of the reasons, actually, why the boys . . . (indistinct) . . . Europe.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is true. That must be one of the reasons, actually, why the boys . . . (indistinct) . . . Europe.
   
   
Śyāmasundara: They take us very lightly.
Śyāmasundara: They take us very lightly.
Line 611: Line 611:
Dr. Singh: Yes. Take this little story . . .
Dr. Singh: Yes. Take this little story . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are ''mūḍhas''. ''Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ'' ([[BG 9.11 (1972)|BG 9.11]]). ''Mūḍha'', they are rascals.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. They are ''mūḍhas''. ''Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ'' ([[BG 9.11 (1972)|BG 9.11]]). ''Mūḍha'', they are rascals.
   
   
Dr. Singh: (indistinct Sanskrit) That is the position actually. What is this little story, these two little things standing here? Some time back you called, "The drowning of the son of Our teacher." Is this from the ''Bhāgavatam''?
Dr. Singh: (indistinct Sanskrit) That is the position actually. What is this little story, these two little things standing here? Some time back you called, "The drowning of the son of Our teacher." Is this from the ''Bhāgavatam''?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Indian woman: See these two little things standing here.
Indian woman: See these two little things standing here.
Line 621: Line 621:
Malatī: It's Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma.
Malatī: It's Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's teacher's son was stolen, so He got him back.  
'''Prabhupāda:''' Kṛṣṇa's teacher's son was stolen, so He got him back.  


Dr. Singh: ''Achha'' . . . he got them back, ''Guru-dakṣiṇā''. The ''guru'' asked Kṛṣṇa, "I have lost my son. You can . . ." "Oh, yes." ''Guru-dakṣiṇā''. That is how to completely satisfy the spiritual master.
Dr. Singh: ''Achha'' . . . he got them back, ''Guru-dakṣiṇā''. The ''guru'' asked Kṛṣṇa, "I have lost my son. You can . . ." "Oh, yes." ''Guru-dakṣiṇā''. That is how to completely satisfy the spiritual master.
Line 633: Line 633:
Dr. Singh: Yes, because his wife . . .
Dr. Singh: Yes, because his wife . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: That is the duty of the student, to give ''guru-dakṣiṇā''. Whatever he wants, you must give.
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is the duty of the student, to give ''guru-dakṣiṇā''. Whatever he wants, you must give.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb.
Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah, yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya?
Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Fantastic story.
Dr. Singh: Fantastic story.
   
   
Prabhupāda: That, "Give your finger just to keep the . . . (indistinct) . . ."
'''Prabhupāda:''' That, "Give your finger just to keep the . . . (indistinct) . . ."
   
   
Dr. Singh: To the ''kṣatriya''. That is very unfair. (laughs)
Dr. Singh: To the ''kṣatriya''. That is very unfair. (laughs)
   
   
Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that, "He is a ''śūdra''. He'll miss it."
'''Prabhupāda:''' Not unfair. He thought that, "He is a ''śūdra''. He'll miss it."
   
   
Dr. Singh: So therefore he . . .
Dr. Singh: So therefore he . . .
   
   
Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)
'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.
Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.


Dr. Singh: Dronachariya.
Dr. Singh: Dronachariya.


Prabhupāda: Exactly. Just like ''śūdra''. In Western countries, they are all ''śūdras''. They are getting money and misusing it for wine and women. They cannot use money for . . . (indistinct) . . . simply for sense gratification. That is the ''śūdra''. And ''brāhmaṇa'', ''kṣatriya'', especially ''kṣatriya'', as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy ''viṣṇu-yajña''.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Exactly. Just like ''śūdra''. In Western countries, they are all ''śūdras''. They are getting money and misusing it for wine and women. They cannot use money for . . . (indistinct) . . . simply for sense gratification. That is the ''śūdra''. And ''brāhmaṇa'', ''kṣatriya'', especially ''kṣatriya'', as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy ''viṣṇu-yajña''.
   
   
Dr. Singh: ''Aśvamedhi''.
Dr. Singh: ''Aśvamedhi''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of, may I know, what is called, Bhīṣmadeva, the ''śūdras'' should be given money so that can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. ''Śūdras'' get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child: you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. <span style="color:#ff9933">Bandorer golay muktor mala.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace.)</span>
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Therefore in the instruction of, may I know, what is called, Bhīṣmadeva, the ''śūdras'' should be given money so that can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. ''Śūdras'' get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child: you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. <span style="color:#ff9933">Bandorer golay muktor mala.</span> <span style="color:#128807">(The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace.)</span>


Dr. Singh: So they call . . .  
Dr. Singh: So they call . . .  


Prabhupāda: The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace. Even Hanumānjī.
'''Prabhupāda:''' The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace. Even Hanumānjī.
   
   
Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it.
Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it.
   
   
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . gave Sita Devi gave, gave her . . . "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, chasa, a cultivator, what does he know about the taste of the liquor? These are very instructive.
'''Prabhupāda:''' (indistinct) . . . gave Sita Devi gave, gave her . . . "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, chasa, a cultivator, what does he know about the taste of the liquor? These are very instructive.
   
   
Śyāmasundara: The cultivator?
Śyāmasundara: The cultivator?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Cultivator . . . (indistinct)
'''Prabhupāda:''' Cultivator . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor.
Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor.
   
   
Prabhupāda: If you give him a bottle of John Walker . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' If you give him a bottle of John Walker . . .
   
   
Dr. Singh: (laughs) Johnnie.
Dr. Singh: (laughs) Johnnie.
   
   
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Johnnie Walker? "What is it?"
'''Prabhupāda:''' (laughs) Johnnie Walker? "What is it?"
   
   
English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor.
English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am used to everything. (laughter)
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, I am used to everything. (laughter)
   
   
Śyāmasundara: What is that phrase, "Johnnie Walker . . ."?
Śyāmasundara: What is that phrase, "Johnnie Walker . . ."?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Eh?
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
   
   
Śyāmasundara: The phrase you were . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter)
Śyāmasundara: The phrase you were . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter)
   
   
Prabhupāda: Very nice. You are author, you are thoughtful, you are a devotee. Now apply all these things for Kṛṣṇa:
'''Prabhupāda:''' Very nice. You are author, you are thoughtful, you are a devotee. Now apply all these things for Kṛṣṇa:
   
   
:''prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā''
:''prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā''
Line 709: Line 709:
Dr. Singh: Apa Pante, you mean our High Commissioner?
Dr. Singh: Apa Pante, you mean our High Commissioner?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Yes, and he is also very much. He believes us, he does ''sūrya-namaskāra'' and things of that nature.
Dr. Singh: Yes, and he is also very much. He believes us, he does ''sūrya-namaskāra'' and things of that nature.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Anyway, he wants to help me, but he cannot.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Anyway, he wants to help me, but he cannot.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Why can he not?
Dr. Singh: Why can he not?
   
   
Prabhupāda: I do not know.
'''Prabhupāda:''' I do not know.
   
   
Dr. Singh: I'll write to him. I'll write to him.
Dr. Singh: I'll write to him. I'll write to him.
   
   
Prabhupāda: So anyway, give us some place in London.
'''Prabhupāda:''' So anyway, give us some place in London.
   
   
Dr. Singh: We'll try to do something, Swāmījī. We'll try and do something definitely.
Dr. Singh: We'll try to do something, Swāmījī. We'll try and do something definitely.
Line 743: Line 743:
Malatī: Five days or a week.
Malatī: Five days or a week.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Generally takes three days by aeroplane.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Generally takes three days by aeroplane.
   
   
Dr. Singh: There must be a good temple in London . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: There must be a good temple in London . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Prabhupāda: I am inviting everyone, all Europeans.
'''Prabhupāda:''' I am inviting everyone, all Europeans.
   
   
Śyāmasundara: The temple we have now is packed, day and night.
Śyāmasundara: The temple we have now is packed, day and night.
Line 757: Line 757:
Mālatī: But it's not . . . every day there's people from not only the Indian community, which you know is very large there, but everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . and They're beautiful. People are always amazed. And all the jewelry and all the mukuts and all the dresses, we make them ourself, and people are amazed. They are so beautiful. They have very big smiling faces and They're very shiny.
Mālatī: But it's not . . . every day there's people from not only the Indian community, which you know is very large there, but everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . and They're beautiful. People are always amazed. And all the jewelry and all the mukuts and all the dresses, we make them ourself, and people are amazed. They are so beautiful. They have very big smiling faces and They're very shiny.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Next time when you go to London . . .
'''Prabhupāda:''' Next time when you go to London . . .
   
   
Dr. Singh: Yes, I'll definitely visit. I requested you to send me the list of your centers, because I travel constantly throughout the world. And wherever I go, I can always look up the thing, and if I find a center there, I can drop into the center.
Dr. Singh: Yes, I'll definitely visit. I requested you to send me the list of your centers, because I travel constantly throughout the world. And wherever I go, I can always look up the thing, and if I find a center there, I can drop into the center.
Line 765: Line 765:
Dr. Singh: This is a new development. So far it was . . . (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: This is a new development. So far it was . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Prabhupāda: And our men are . . . (indistinct) . . . actually people are accepting this great culture of India. The . . . (indistinct)
'''Prabhupāda:''' And our men are . . . (indistinct) . . . actually people are accepting this great culture of India. The . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Dr. Singh: How long you are in India now?
Dr. Singh: How long you are in India now?
   
   
Prabhupāda: At least three months.
'''Prabhupāda:''' At least three months.
   
   
Dr. Singh: Three months.
Dr. Singh: Three months.
   
   
Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct)
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Dr. Singh: Do you come every year, or is this the first time you have come . . . (indistinct) . . .?
Dr. Singh: Do you come every year, or is this the first time you have come . . . (indistinct) . . .?
   
   
Prabhupāda: No. I came last year . . . (indistinct)
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. I came last year . . . (indistinct)
   
   
Gurudāsa: Seventy.
Gurudāsa: Seventy.
Line 783: Line 783:
Dr. Singh: Seventy.
Dr. Singh: Seventy.
   
   
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so I went back again to Los Angeles in . . . (indistinct) . . . in June.
'''Prabhupāda:''' (indistinct) . . . so I went back again to Los Angeles in . . . (indistinct) . . . in June.
   
   
Śyāmasundara: Moscow, Paris, Los Angeles.
Śyāmasundara: Moscow, Paris, Los Angeles.
Line 789: Line 789:
Dr. Singh: How did you find Moscow?
Dr. Singh: How did you find Moscow?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is demand for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply artificially they have been checked. I find my market everywhere. I have, I have sown the seed in Moscow. I have got one student in Moscow.
'''Prabhupāda:''' Everywhere there is demand for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply artificially they have been checked. I find my market everywhere. I have, I have sown the seed in Moscow. I have got one student in Moscow.
   
   
Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . the day when you chant Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Red Square.
Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . the day when you chant Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Red Square.
Line 795: Line 795:
Śyāmasundara: Ratha-yātrā, ''saṅkīrtana''.
Śyāmasundara: Ratha-yātrā, ''saṅkīrtana''.
   
   
Prabhupāda: You have been in Moscow?
'''Prabhupāda:''' You have been in Moscow?
   
   
Dr. Singh: Yes.
Dr. Singh: Yes.
   
   
Prabhupāda: I was staying in that National Hotel.
'''Prabhupāda:''' I was staying in that National Hotel.
   
   
Dr. Singh: I see. Who sponsored your trip? Was . . . (indistinct) . . .?
Dr. Singh: I see. Who sponsored your trip? Was . . . (indistinct) . . .?
   
   
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) I had some correspondence with one Professor Kotovsky, and he said that . . . (break) (end)
'''Prabhupāda:''' Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) I had some correspondence with one Professor Kotovsky, and he said that . . . (break) (end)

Revision as of 02:16, 31 August 2023

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



711125R1-DELHI - November 25, 1971 - 60:44 Minutes



Dr. Singh: . . . śarīra.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. The whole civilized activity is going on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13) . . . (indistinct) . . . everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmīs, I mean to say . . . (indistinct) . . . they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet.

Enjoying here nicely and they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies and doing pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to Vedas. But all the . . . anywhere we go, material . . . these people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable.

Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34), "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away.

Dr. Singh: But is it not possible when the Upaniṣads, when they talk of this path . . . (indistinct) . . . yoga agni mayam shariram. Nahi, unko kehna tha. (No, this is what he meant to say.) So if you . . . what does that mean?

Prabhupāda: That means you become purified of this material body and you regain your spiritual body. Yogam.

Dr. Singh: Yoga agni māyām śarīraram.

Prabhupāda: Cinmaya-śarīra. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa.

Dr. Singh: Coming now. This is my friend Sri Ramakrishna. I just called my wife and another lady inviting . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Cinmaya, cinmaya-śarīra we have got. In the Padma Purāṇa, the length and breadth of this cinmaya-śarīra is given—one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 5.9).

Dr. Singh: This is my wife.

Prabhupāda: Ah, how are you?

Dr. Singh: And this is Mrs. Star one English friend of ours who is out . . . who is . . .

Prabhupāda: (to lady) So why are you sitting down?

Dr. Singh: Because I have a little problem in sitting on the floor, but she is all right.

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much for your humbleness. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He has taught therefore that:

tṛṇād api sunīcena
taror api sahiṣṇunā
amāninā mānadena
kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ
(CC Adi 17.31)

(indistinct) . . . because here everyone is puffed up.

Dr. Singh: Ahaṅkāra.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. (Dr. Singh laughs) So humbleness is very good qualification. And in the Bible also it is said the humble and meek will reap the kingdom of God. I think you will find.

Devotee: Inherit the earth.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Devotee: "The meek shall inherit the earth."

Prabhupāda: So this is . . . because our puffed-up condition on account of this body is illusion, because I am not this body. Therefore brahma-bhūtaḥ, those who are self-realized, they are prasannātmā. Any condition of life they are happy, jolly.

Dr. Singh: So Swāmījī, if er . . . if Īśa is everywhere, īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), then surely He is in the body also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: So is the body not to be treated with a certain amount of of em, of em . . . care, and even comfort, because it is the vehicle for our spiritual progress and so on?

Prabhupāda: Certainly. There are necessities. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya (BG 6.17). But the thing is, people are trying to keep the body in overcomfort, and the result is they are becoming diseased. We require to . . . the body is not to be neglected. Just like our system, our Vedic system, live on nature: you take grains, you take fruits, you take milk, sufficient nourishment. So why should you take animal food? It is simply taste for the tongue. You don't require. Now these boys and girls who are with me for the last four years, they have given (up) everything—meat eating, fish, eggs, everything.

Dr. Singh: Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā.

Prabhupāda: Ah, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1).

Dr. Singh: (chuckles) They simply take kṛṣṇa-prasādam. They have forgotten everything. So, they have not died.

Indian man: They look remarkably well, as a matter of fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: (laughs) Therefore they are now known in their country as the bright-faced.

Dr. Singh: Bright-faced.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Ujjwala-mukha.

Prabhupāda: Yes, ujjwala-mukha. And one American lady, when she saw these boys are chanting on the street, she was surprised. She said that, "Are you American?" She was surprised. One priest, when I was traveling from Los Angeles to Hawaii, one priest in . . . gentleman there sitting, out of his own accord he came to me and began to talk with me that, "Swāmījī, I see in the face of your students brightness. How you have created brightness?" He admitted that.

Another priest, Christian priest, in New York . . . in Boston, he issued a pamphlet that, "These boys and girls, they are our boys. But we see they have got this nice qualification, they are mad after God, but we could not give them." So it is a process. The madness after God is there in everywhere, in every heart. But because it is now covered, we have to . . .

Dr. Singh: Would you have . . . (indistinct) . . .? We are having dinner later, of course. I thought maybe you would want something to start with.

Prabhupāda: One glass of water will be fine.

Dr. Singh: Pani de dijiye, unko de dijiye. (Give it to him, give it to him.) Only water? Only water, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: We can take. What is it?

Dr. Singh: Inko do, jo bhi inko dena ho. (Give it to him, whatever you have.)

Prabhupāda: Kya chiz hai? (What is this?)

Dr. Singh: Kuch hai, ye anna jaisa hai. (aside) Ye rehne do, ye kyu . . . (indistinct) . . . unki habit nahi. (It is similar to rice. (aside) Just leave it, why did you . . . not in his habit.) We have made a truly sattvic bhojana today, so there is no problem.

Prabhupāda: I am very glad to see original kṣatriya. (Dr. Singh laughs) Rājarṣi.

Dr. Singh: Rajarshi to kya hai lekin ye Raghuvamsha ka hai avashya. (I don't know if I am a rājarṣi or not, but surely we are from Raghuvaṁśa.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, ap hi ka hai. (No, you definitely belong to their lineage.) Your generation are kṣatriya. Actually we give stress in our civilization, brahmin and kṣatriya. Kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyā bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā (BG 9.33). And Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Yehi to hum log ka durbhagya ho gaya. (This is our great misfortune.) We have lost our kṣatriyas, we have lost our . . .

Dr. Singh: Kshatra bal nahi raha, kshatra dharma nahi raha. (Kṣatriyas don't possess any prowess now, nor do they have the kṣatriya religiosity.)

Prabhupāda: To isliye . . . (That's why . . .) the Vedic civilization is lost. The kṣatriyas are considered to be the arms.

Dr. Singh: And also the . . .

Prabhupāda: And the brahmins the head.

Dr. Singh: But in the Upaniṣads, as you know, there are many cases in which the brāhmaṇas had to go to the kṣatriyas for knowledge. You remember?

Indian man: Fourth Chapter of Gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . Fourth Chapter of Gītā . . . (indistinct) . . . the knowledge is being handed over.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Handed down.

Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respect.

Dr. Singh: Sretaketu also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity.

Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine.

Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I want to revive brahminism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual.

But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.

Prabhupāda: So the brahmin's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma and the śūdra's dharma.

Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swāmījī, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore a man must be . . . he must have the knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas.

Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That . . . that is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva, raja, tama guṇa. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya, nirguṇa.

Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says:

māṁ ca 'vyabhicāreṇa
bhakti-yogena ya sevate
sa guṇān samatītya etān
brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
(BG 14.26)

So two sides we are trying to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible.

Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is on the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division—brahmin, kṣatriya, vaisya, śūdra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brahmin. Next to that, passion, kṣatriya. And next to that, vaiśya, mixture. And next to that, śūdra. And next to that, caṇḍāla.

Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have for example . . . he's got to have his . . . he's got to have knowledge of the dharma. He's got to have the capacity to act . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: . . . of the kṣatriya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: He's got to have the capacity for commerce and trade and Nipuṇāta . . . (perfect skills . . .) for example, and service.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that, that, that . . .

Dr. Singh: Can't we all be combined in a single person rather than dividing them into four, at least in the present age?

Prabhupāda: No. That is not possible. Suppose if, if you are a kṣatriya, you are ruling, you cannot go to work in the field.

Dr. Singh: We go to work in the office, which is equally, which is equally (laughs) hard, I can assure you. (laughs) We go from morning till evening. I wish I could go to the field, in fact.

Prabhupāda: Of course, you cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class. Manager class. They cannot do without it. Must be there . . . someone must be there manager. So this, this division of the society . . .

Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the legs, nor the leg can do the work of the head.

Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swāmījī . . .

Prabhupāda: That is, that is wanted.

Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be in brahmin or either you may be kṣatriya, either you may be vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśa is accepted, varna āśrama. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Now everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You remain kṣatriya, you remain brahmin, you remain śūdra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted.

Therefore, Arjuna. He remained a kṣatriya. He was a fighter; he was declining to fight, and Kṛṣṇa said: "What is this nonsense, you decline to fight?" "No, I do not wish to kill my kinsmen." Then he was . . . he accepted Kṛṣṇa's discipleship, śiṣyas te 'ham (BG 2.7), "Now I am puzzled, I do not . . . I am . . ." Yes. Kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ.

Dr. Singh: Pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ.

Prabhupāda: Then Kṛṣṇa taught him Bhagavad-gītā. So he remained a kṣatriya. But Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). So business is how to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter whether you are kṣatriya, brahmin, kṣatriya. It doesn't matter.

Dr. Singh: But surely Kṛṣṇa is not unsatisfied.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Kṛṣṇa is fully satisfied already.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is satisfied because He is the supreme. He does not require your help to be satisfied. But if you help Him, then you become satisfied.

Dr. Singh: So we satisfy ourself by . . . by connecting.

Prabhupāda: That is the duty. Just like these fingers. Suppose if this finger is not working, I have got another finger. But if this finger does not satisfy me, that means it is diseased condition. It is not a normal condition. Similarly, we are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). So we are parts and . . . if we do not satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that means we are in diseased condition, unhealthy.

Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma.

Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body . . . suppose I want to scratch here; a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased.

Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swāmījī, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life?

Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take . . . just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual.

Dr. Singh: It is the attitude with which one does it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . that is the definition of bhakti. Bhakti means hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ, that is bhakti. Now to serve Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, that requires qualification. Just like you are king; if somebody wants to serve you as your secretary, he must have specific qualifications. Not ordinary man. Similarly, bhakti means to serve Kṛṣṇa. So everyone can serve Kṛṣṇa, provided he is qualified. And what is that qualification?

Dr. Singh: Love of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That qualification . . . love of Kṛṣṇa is not so easy. We have to reach that point after many processes. Exactly same way, to become a secretary of the president, personal assistant, it is not very easy job. It requires some qualification. Similarly, to serve Kṛṣṇa, it requires some qualification. And what is that qualification?

Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170): when we give up our designation. At the present moment, we are all designated, "I am Indian," "I am Christian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am Hindustani." These designations are going on. When you give up your designation, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ, that is mukti: "I am not Indian," "I am not Christian," "I am not Pakistani," "I am not Hindu." What you are?

Dr. Singh: (Sanskrit) śivo 'ham, śivo . . .

Prabhupāda: What you are? "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Śivo 'ham is the beginning. Śivo 'ham, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is the beginning realization. Just like "I am this," "I am Indian," "I am this." Then you have to think over, "Then what is my duty?" This perception that I am Śiva or Maṅgala, I am spirit soul, then what is my duty?

Now I am working now with the bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am Kashmiri," "I am this," "I am that." So when I realize that I am neither Kashmiri nor Indian nor this or not that, I am śivo 'ham, or brahmāsmi, or I am eternal servant of God, Kṛṣṇa, that is your purest. Tat-paratvena nirmalam.

When you come to that understanding, śivo 'ham understanding, brahmāsmi understanding, or eternal servant of God understanding, then your duty begins. That is bhakti. So therefore bhakti is not on the material platform. Bhakti is on the spiritual platform. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
(BG 18.54)

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purifying everyone. This bodily concept of life, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," they are forgetting. Just like in our society there are devotees from many religious sects, many countries, but they are nobody in that concept of life. They are purely thinking, "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." This is bhakti, and this is spiritual platform.

So far the material platform is concerned, then there is already division: an intelligent class of men, the administrator. Just like not all, everyone, is interested taking part in administration. Just like we, at least myself, if you invite me to come to the administration, I'll not interested. We are interested in different thing.

So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of man, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up.

Now the fault is without being trained, simply by votes one becomes prime minister or home minister, he has no training how to administer, but simply by vote, he occupies a big post. And that is his qualification. But he does not know how to rule over, how to make the people satisfied. Therefore, chaos. Daily everywhere, government is changing. Daily, weekly, this government, that government, that government. Why? Because they are not trained up how to administer. Therefore that is required.

Then, hah . . . tejaḥ. First, first these administrators must be tejasvī . . . īśvara bhāva . . . dānam yūdhe cāpy apalāyanam (BG 18.43). Now there will be fight, and the administers will sit down on the nice couch, and the common man will fight. Formerly kṣatriya came first of all. Like Arjuna, he is in the front. The other side, Duryodhana is in the front. So the fighter in that, "Oh, my master is there." But there is no kṣatriya. The administration is under the śūdra side. How they can manage? So they must be trained, as in business we give training.

Similarly, those who are going to take up, take up the responsibility of administration, they should be trained. And who will train them? The brahmins, the śāstra, sādhu-śāstra-guru. And those who are common men, they will simply work under their direction. This division is already there; simply the training is not there. Therefore there is chaos.

Dr. Singh: There was a lot of chaos even in the old days when these divisions were there.

Prabhupāda: No, not so.

Dr. Singh: If you look at ancient history, it is one long story of massacres and wars and turmoil.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Singh: If you read Chanakya niti and all.

Prabhupāda: Chanakya niti, it is of course about some thousands of years. But so far our Indian history goes, we have . . . we had two wars only, big wars. One war was Rāvaṇa and Rāma, another was between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, after many millions of years passed.

Dr. Singh: So it was recorded war.

Prabhupāda: That, that's all right. Er, er . . . recorded means. That fighting is going on even in the family. We see between husband and wife also there is something fighting. That is not taken into account. But the major wars in the history of the world . . . because India, or Bhārata-varṣa, means the whole world. Now it is cut into pieces. Just like twenty years ago, Pakistan is cut.

This, this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa. Formerly it was known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa. Later on, after the ruling of Mahārāja Bharata . . . you know Mahārāja Bharata. After his name, this planet is called Bhārata-varṣa. And up to the Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, there was one ruling all over the world. One king in this first to last, then gradually . . . why? The culture was lost.

The Vedic culture was lost. Up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the Vedic culture was kept intact. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit, while he was going on tour of the Western countries, he saw one black man was trying to kill one cow. He immediately took his sword, "Who are you? You are killing cow in my kingdom?" So that culture we have lost. Immediately he is desiring, "With this sword I shall kill you."

So king should give protection to all living entities. That is king's duty, state's duty. Everyone should have living right. Why the animals should be killed? They are also prajā. Is it not duty of the king to give protection? And that was being done up to the Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Therefore, there was one kingdom. When they deteriorated, gradually part, part, part. Just like what is this Pakistan problem?

(break) These Pakistani Muhammadans, they do not come from Muhammadan country. They are our men, Hindus converted. But we could not keep the culture.

Just like Kṛṣṇa says:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
striyo śūdrā tathā vaiśyās
te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
(BG 9.32)

Another, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā
ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ
ye 'nye ca pāpā (yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ)
śudhyanti prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ
(SB 2.4.18)

We did not preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore we created all these things. Who, whose duty it is? Kṛṣṇa said, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ: "Even one is born in pāpa-yoni, he can come to Me." That, what is not the duty of those who are elevated as brahmin and kṣatriya, to keep the standard. Even one is born in pāpa-yoni, he should be educated to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

But that we did not do. We simply hated. Now one, at the . . . during Muhammadan period, if the Muhammadan will take some water from the . . . (indistinct) . . . put in this way, sprinkle over, "Oh, he has become Muhammadan." This has been done. These are stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Now, whatever is done is done. Now if you want to unite the whole world again under one banner, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only . . .

Dr. Singh: Should we want to unite the world, or should be want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Singh: Should we not rather want to unite ourselves with Kṛṣṇa rather than to unite the world?

Prabhupāda: Well, unless you are united with Kṛṣṇa, how you can teach the world to become united?

Dr. Singh: But should one teach the world to become united . . . (indistinct) . . . with Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: To become happy. To be happy. To become really happy. Yaṁ labdhvā cāparaṁ lābhaṁ manyate nādhikaṁ tataḥ (BG 6.22). Everyone feels satisfied, "Oh, I have got Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . ."

Dr. Singh: So the first thing is to get Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: The world can then be looked after later.

Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. Just like, what world you can look after? Tell me, what is the particular way you want to look after?

Dr. Singh: Well, I mean that with Kṛṣṇa first . . . (indistinct) . . . so what is the first priority?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Singh: First priority is to try . . .

(break) . . . function.

Prabhupāda: What, what do you mean by this first priority? That I want to know from you.

Dr. Singh: No, you were talking, Swāmījī, about the unification of the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The world is going on. We simply say that you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and you will be happy—happy in this life, happy in the next life. So you are going on in this way. "In this way" means either out of the four classes. You may name in a different way. I say brahmin class, you say intelligent class. But, do you agree that in the world there is a intelligent class of men?

Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is working.

Dr. Singh: They can do . . . they can be very good worker.

Prabhupāda: When your brain . . . brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work.

Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone.

Dr. Singh: They can fight also.

Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that, "Here is a enemy," so hand immediately raised. Brain gives direction that, "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya. And the belly supplies food in that, vaiśya. And the legs, śūdra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain.

Therefore, first of all duty is there must be a intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class.

So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Is it not? So jñānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19).

That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. Ya eṣāṁ ātma-bhuvam īśvaram na bhajanty abhijānanti sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ (SB 11.5.3) sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ. Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brahmin, kṣatriyas, they have fallen down. Brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, everyone. Sthānād bhraṣṭāḥ patanty adhaḥ.

Dr. Singh: When you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, is it not a state of ecstasy?

Prabhupāda: Why ecstasy? That is a misconception. Even this a material ecstacy . . . that ecstacy, spiritual ecstasy is very, very above all these things. First Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the example of Arjuna. Arjuna decided not to fight. But after understanding Bhagavad-gītā, when he became Kṛṣṇa conscious, he fought. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to act under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Singh: An interesting thing struck me the other day, Swāmījī, about the Bhagavad-gītā, that whether Arjuna would have fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Singh: I don't know whether Arjuna fought or not, the war would nevertheless have taken place, because both the armies were there, the conches had been sounded. So Arjuna's decision was not whether there should be war or whether there should not be war. Arjuna's decision was only whether he should fight or he should not fight.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . .

Dr. Singh: But the more difficult decision is whether there should be war, whether there should not be war. Because Arjuna only came into it . . . (indistinct) . . . you consider it, only at the time when everything had already been decided, the armies had been brought.

Prabhupāda: That everything was done by Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Singh: When He went as a duta (messenger). That to my mind is even the more important aspect of this whole story, because it . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Kṛṣṇa called him foolish; it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him Bhagavad-gītā. And when he came to his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that, "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin (BG 11.33). So this plan was made by Kṛṣṇa, and there was no other alternative.

Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Kṛṣṇa there to tell him what the plan was.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Arjuna.

Prabhupāda: So everyone can become happy like Arjuna if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. I was studying your book.

Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swāmījī?

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Dr. Singh: This one? Oh! Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture.

Śyāmasundara: Your secretary gave it to us.

Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swāmījī to sign your books. I have got all your books.

Prabhupāda: So some of the points some of the points . . . what was the points?

Śyāmasundara: The . . . that every statement of Hinduism in the context of the nuclear age assumes tremendous importance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that we are doing.

Dr. Singh: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We are giving shape to your philosophy. Just like it was the conception that in India there are brahmins only. Amongst the Hindus, there are brahmins.

Dr. Singh: All brāhmaṇas . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: It was not? Now we are creating brahmins from America, from Australia. Is it not re-creation of . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Dr. Singh: Restatement of Hinduism.

Śyāmasundara: He has always been open to creative reinterpretation.

Prabhupāda: This is creative reinterpretation. We are accepting brahmins, kṣatriyas—especially brahmin—from every community.

Dr. Singh: Are we going to have any kīrtana tonight? What is the program, or do we . . .

Śyāmasundara: As you wish.

Dr. Singh: As Swāmījī wishes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, kīrtana.

Dr. Singh: Shall I, before dinner, before food.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is very interesting, scientific. So I would like all intelligent men to come and join this movement.

Dr. Singh: It is a great knowledge. It is a great thunderbolt. It is a great gift . . . (indistinct Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: Yes. We can answer any philosophy.

Devotee: We have a . . .

Prabhupāda: Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ, kecit . . . there is a verse that there are many means and ways to rectify the world situation. But simply by accepting this bhakti cult, everything can be solved. The example is given, nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ. Just like there is fog—if there is sunlight, immediately dissipated. You cannot dissipate it in any other way. You may have some scientific process that this way and that way . . .

Dr. Singh: Anti-pollution.

Prabhupāda: So this one stroke will clear everything. So my appeal to all intelligent class of men is, "Come here, talk about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness philosophy and accept it and execute it." That is my appeal.

(aside) All right, have some kīrtana.

I think in 1925 I went to Kashmir.

Dr. Singh: Really. Before I was born, Swāmījī.

Prabhupāda: What is your birthday?

Dr. Singh: '31, 1931. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: And your father's?

Dr. Singh: My father must have been born in 1895. He passed away. My parents have passed away.

Prabhupāda: I was born in 1896.

Dr. Singh: '96, So I was seeing here. He was born on about the same date. How do we organize this? Are you going to do it, or what's going to happen? Do you sit where you are, or do you group together? (to Mālatī) What do you want? A piece of paper?

Devotee: She wants to write the words of the mantra on a piece of paper.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Hare Kṛṣṇa?

(indistinct discussion by devotees about writing words) Write. Write. Give her. (break)

Mālatī: . . . photographs from India of the actual . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: . . . Harrison. So our devotees, they . . . (indistinct) . . . that singer of the Beatles.

Prabhupāda: He gave me nineteen thousand dollars.

Dr. Singh: Did he?

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . "Words from Apple."

Prabhupāda: This boy contacted, Śyāmasundara . . . (indistinct) . . . find out.

Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . (reading) "Śrīman George Harrison, Śyāmasundara dāsa Adhikārī, Śrīman Brahmānanda dāsa Brahmacārī, Hayagrīva dāsa Adhikārī, Nam bade bade sundar apne chune hai. (You have selected very beautiful big big names.) (laughs), Śrīmate Devahūti devī, Śrīmate Jadurāṇī dāsī." You are Devahūti?

Mālatī: No, she's on her way.

Dr. Singh: "Śrīman Muralī dāsa . . . Muralīdhara dāsa and Bharadrāja dāsa." Bharadrāja dāsa, "Pradyumna dāsa Adhikārī."

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . all of them work for this movement.

Dr. Singh: It is your power working through all of them, I am sure.

Śyāmasundara: In the beginning of this chapter . . . (indistinct) . . . you talked about men who lead . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). That is . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is scientific. Our śreṣṭha jan (those who are leading us) has gone to hell. How the people will come to . . . (indistinct) . . .? They don't care for God. Godless existence . . . (indistinct) . . . by the grace of Kṛṣṇa we are . . . humanity . . . trying to be . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . difficult to do but I, one's own way one tries. What a man is Śrī Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: I said that our government should give me facility for . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: I know him very well. He's a very good friend of mine, Swami Raghunatha though I am not . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: what I am not.

Dr. Singh: (laughs) a cadre, a cadre . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What, what fault I have?

Dr. Singh: (laughs) Except that he keeps going round and round, and he lives in India.

Prabhupāda: Does he, does he move better than me or less?

Dr. Singh: Much less, but he comes back to India all the time—he's based in India.

Prabhupāda: Because he has no followers. (laughter) Nobody will give him place.

Dr. Singh: Even I can give him . . . (indistinct) . . . I can stay anywhere. I have got so many houses.

Mālatī: You may also come and stay in any of our houses.

Prabhupāda: So these things are to be considered. What contribution he can give? And he is given all certificates, and I am not certified?

Dr. Singh: The government of India has not in any way helped this movement, has it?

Prabhupāda: Not a single farthing. Why this . . .

Śyāmasundara: In fact, they try in many ways to stop it, retard our progress.

Prabhupāda: Rather they, they, they are always after me, "Oh, why you are here? Go away, go away."

Dr. Singh: Do they say that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I do not know, but that is their minor point. Immediately that . . . (indistinct) . . . said . . . what is that? "No foreigner can stay there?"

Śyāmasundara: In Nadia.

Prabhupāda: Nadia. I do not know whether it is there. So we are being indirectly disturbed.

Dr. Singh: That must be because this, got trouble there, and the foreigners . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But what must they . . . they should, government should know what I am doing. Whole world is appreciating, except my government. It's so unfortunate.

Dr. Singh: It is always the home is the last one always. You know what happens with prophets come. (laughs) They are always respected more abroad.

Mālatī: But the point is, we are . . . he is taking from this country the greatest thing and giving. It is not like he is exploiting in some materialistic effort. Rather, he is giving the greatest thing from this country.

Prabhupāda: Recently one paper has remarked that, "Such an important man is going unnoticed." They remarked like that.

Dr. Singh: Here?

Prabhupāda: No. Where it is?

Mālatī: Boston.

Prabhupāda: Boston. Also in Buffalo.

Mālatī: Buffalo, yes.

Śyāmasundara: He was speaking in reference to the Pope. The Pope didn't acknowledge your letter to him.

Dr. Singh: Did it or did?

Śyāmasundara: Did not.

Dr. Singh: His loss. When we have Kṛṣṇa, who needs the Pope? (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I may not think that, but I wanted to see. He is a head of a very great religion, so I want to bring cooperation, I offered my cooperation and he sided me, so I have to struggle with so many difficulties, at this age different means and everything. Handicap. Still I am . . .

Dr. Singh: Are there many Indian-born disciples abroad, or are they mainly Western disciples?

Prabhupāda: No, there are many Indians.

Mālatī: In England there are many. They go now. They are from Muslim families and they are from . . .

Prabhupāda: The Indians take it lightly. They say: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa. But we have a life outside."

Dr. Singh: That is the . . . I think you're quite right, due to that is what they do.

Prabhupāda: They have learned everything.

Dr. Singh: Really? Do they know anything about Kṛṣṇa or not?

Prabhupāda: Sab janta Lawrence. (The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.) In Bengal there is called sab janta Lawrence. There was Mr. Lawrence . . .

Dr. Singh: (laughs) Sab janta Lawrence. (The all-knowing Mr. Lawrence.)

Prabhupāda: Wo sab janta hai. (He knows everything.)

Dr. Singh: (laughs) Pani tray le ao. (Please bring the tray of water.)

Prabhupāda: So our Indian people are sab janta Lawrence. Sab kuch janta hai. (They know everything.)

Dr. Singh: (still laughing) That is true. Here everybody . . . (indistinct) . . . is brought up with Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ek hi shiksha nayi baatein khatam ho jati hai. (The same old conceptions finish any scope for advanced understanding.)

Prabhupāda: That is true. That must be one of the reasons, actually, why the boys . . . (indistinct) . . . Europe.

Śyāmasundara: They take us very lightly.

Dr. Singh: Yes. Take this little story . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are mūḍhas. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). Mūḍha, they are rascals.

Dr. Singh: (indistinct Sanskrit) That is the position actually. What is this little story, these two little things standing here? Some time back you called, "The drowning of the son of Our teacher." Is this from the Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian woman: See these two little things standing here.

Malatī: It's Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's teacher's son was stolen, so He got him back.

Dr. Singh: Achha . . . he got them back, Guru-dakṣiṇā. The guru asked Kṛṣṇa, "I have lost my son. You can . . ." "Oh, yes." Guru-dakṣiṇā. That is how to completely satisfy the spiritual master.

Malatī: Sāndīpani Muni has . . .

Dr. Singh: Sāndīpani.

Malatī: He had sons?

Dr. Singh: Yes, because his wife . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the duty of the student, to give guru-dakṣiṇā. Whatever he wants, you must give.

Dr. Singh: Like Ekalavya gave his thumb.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Dr. Singh: Do you know that story of Ekalavya?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Fantastic story.

Prabhupāda: That, "Give your finger just to keep the . . . (indistinct) . . ."

Dr. Singh: To the kṣatriya. That is very unfair. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Not unfair. He thought that, "He is a śūdra. He'll miss it."

Dr. Singh: So therefore he . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: Therefore, he neutralized.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Dronachariya.

Prabhupāda: Exactly. Just like śūdra. In Western countries, they are all śūdras. They are getting money and misusing it for wine and women. They cannot use money for . . . (indistinct) . . . simply for sense gratification. That is the śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, especially kṣatriya, as soon as they get money, they would make a big sacrifice to satisfy viṣṇu-yajña.

Dr. Singh: Aśvamedhi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore in the instruction of, may I know, what is called, Bhīṣmadeva, the śūdras should be given money so that can live very comfortably, not more. Then they will be spoiled. And that is being done. Śūdras get money, they do not know how to use it. Just like a child: you give hundred rupees, he will spoil it. He does know. Bandorer golay muktor mala. (The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace.)

Dr. Singh: So they call . . .

Prabhupāda: The monkey is decorated with a pearl necklace. Even Hanumānjī.

Dr. Singh: (laughs) He did it.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . gave Sita Devi gave, gave her . . . "Oh, you are so nice. Come on, take it." And there is another proverb in Bengal, chasa, a cultivator, what does he know about the taste of the liquor? These are very instructive.

Śyāmasundara: The cultivator?

Prabhupāda: Cultivator . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: That is before the days of country liquor.

Prabhupāda: If you give him a bottle of John Walker . . .

Dr. Singh: (laughs) Johnnie.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Johnnie Walker? "What is it?"

English woman: I'm so surprised you know the name of that liquor.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am used to everything. (laughter)

Śyāmasundara: What is that phrase, "Johnnie Walker . . ."?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śyāmasundara: The phrase you were . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Very nice. You are author, you are thoughtful, you are a devotee. Now apply all these things for Kṛṣṇa:

prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā
śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā
etāvaj janma-sāphalyaṁ
dehinām iha dehiṣu
(SB 10.22.35)

That is perfection. For Kṛṣṇa. Dedicate life for Kṛṣṇa. So, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ (SB 10.14.3): keep in your position, but serve for Kṛṣṇa. That Mr. Pante is also very nice boy . . . many talking . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: Apa Pante, you mean our High Commissioner?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Singh: Yes, and he is also very much. He believes us, he does sūrya-namaskāra and things of that nature.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, he wants to help me, but he cannot.

Dr. Singh: Why can he not?

Prabhupāda: I do not know.

Dr. Singh: I'll write to him. I'll write to him.

Prabhupāda: So anyway, give us some place in London.

Dr. Singh: We'll try to do something, Swāmījī. We'll try and do something definitely.

Śyāmasundara: That letter did you se . . . which address did you send that to?

Dr. Singh: I don't really know, but I've sent it. You . . . when are you going? Who is going? None of you are going.

Śyāmasundara: We're not going. I was thinking, though, if you have a carbon copy, we could send it to my Godbrothers who are going to meet with him.

Dr. Singh: Today is already the 26th . . . 25th . . . 26th. What is it today?

Gurudāsa: Tomorrow's the 26th.

Śyāmasundara: The meeting's on the 30th.

Dr. Singh: It will never get there. It will take . . . (indistinct)

English woman: Sometimes the letters only take three days. Sometimes they take a week.

Malatī: Five days or a week.

Prabhupāda: Generally takes three days by aeroplane.

Dr. Singh: There must be a good temple in London . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: I am inviting everyone, all Europeans.

Śyāmasundara: The temple we have now is packed, day and night.

Dr. Singh: You have a temple?

Śyāmasundara: Oh, a very big temple.

Mālatī: But it's not . . . every day there's people from not only the Indian community, which you know is very large there, but everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . and They're beautiful. People are always amazed. And all the jewelry and all the mukuts and all the dresses, we make them ourself, and people are amazed. They are so beautiful. They have very big smiling faces and They're very shiny.

Prabhupāda: Next time when you go to London . . .

Dr. Singh: Yes, I'll definitely visit. I requested you to send me the list of your centers, because I travel constantly throughout the world. And wherever I go, I can always look up the thing, and if I find a center there, I can drop into the center.

Śyāmasundara: Every city.

Dr. Singh: This is a new development. So far it was . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And our men are . . . (indistinct) . . . actually people are accepting this great culture of India. The . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: How long you are in India now?

Prabhupāda: At least three months.

Dr. Singh: Three months.

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Singh: Do you come every year, or is this the first time you have come . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. I came last year . . . (indistinct)

Gurudāsa: Seventy.

Dr. Singh: Seventy.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so I went back again to Los Angeles in . . . (indistinct) . . . in June.

Śyāmasundara: Moscow, Paris, Los Angeles.

Dr. Singh: How did you find Moscow?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere there is demand for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply artificially they have been checked. I find my market everywhere. I have, I have sown the seed in Moscow. I have got one student in Moscow.

Dr. Singh: (indistinct) . . . the day when you chant Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Red Square.

Śyāmasundara: Ratha-yātrā, saṅkīrtana.

Prabhupāda: You have been in Moscow?

Dr. Singh: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I was staying in that National Hotel.

Dr. Singh: I see. Who sponsored your trip? Was . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) I had some correspondence with one Professor Kotovsky, and he said that . . . (break) (end)