761222 - Conversation A - Poona

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

761222R1-POONA - December 22, 1976 - 128.42 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Because you cannot do like this. Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7): "Nobody is superior than Me." That is Kṛṣṇa. Are you able to become superior of everyone?

Mr. Malhotra: That is so, but how is that creator? His own creation went against and Kṛṣṇa became after His creation to worship and become devotees of superior . . .

Prabhupāda: Isiliye, (That is why,) For this reason Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). One who knows what are the activities of Kṛṣṇa, he is liberated. So,

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin vetti māṁ tattvataḥ

(BG 7.3)

So to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ, is not possible for ordinary person.

Mr. Malhotra: Why this trying to understand Kṛṣṇa? Why not try to understand one's self? Kṛṣṇa passed five thousand years ago. Now ashes are there in our hands. Why not . . .

Prabhupāda: That means you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is . . . why Kṛṣṇa? You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. You are nitya, nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, you are nitya. Why do you say Kṛṣṇa existed five thousand years ago? He is existing always.

Mr. Malhotra: Always existing there. Then the past is . . . (indistinct) . . . within you, within oneself.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You are also nitya, but you are part and parcel of that nitya. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is nitya, you are also nitya; God is also living, you are also living. What is the difference between the two? That one person, He is maintaining all of us. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. So this is knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. God is one. I am also individual. But we are many because we are all living entities. But God is one. We are controlled by God or God's nature. We are not one.

Mr. Malhotra: Aren't we the images of God?

Prabhupāda: Apart from images . . . that is another thing. That we shall describe later on. First of all you cannot claim that you are God, because you are under the control of material nature.

Mr. Malhotra: You said part and parcel of God.

Prabhupāda: Part and parcel, just like the finger is part and parcel of my body, but it is not the whole body.

Mr. Malhotra: It is the body.

Prabhupāda: It is body, you can say that, but part of it.

Mr. Malhotra: Part of my body. All enjoined together, it makes the whole body. If it is separated . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still you say it is aṅguli (finger). It is not the body.

Mr. Malhotra: Aṅguli. (laughs) It is one part, to say many.

Prabhupāda: No. You should be . . . should be senses. Just like this aṅguli, I am asking, "Do like this?" It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body, then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example: This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66): "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation.

Mr. Malhotra: So what if the drop submerges in the ocean, then the identity of drop vanishes.

Prabhupāda: No.

Mr. Malhotra: Drop, when drop submerges with the ocean . . .

Prabhupāda: I will give you practical example. Just like you take red water, colored water. So put into the sea, does it mean that sea becomes red? That little spot may be for the time being. Besides that, merging, this is the philosophy of the Māyāvādīs. Actually that is superficial. Just like a bird, green bird, enters into the green tree. You see that bird is vanished. Because the tree is green and the bird is green, you do not know the separate identification. But the bird is there, separate identification. It is not the bird has become zero. A aeroplane goes to the sky, after some time you don't find the aeroplane. That doesn't mean the aeroplane has no more identity, separate. It is separate. It is your defective eyes that you cannot see that it has got separate existence. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that, "I, you and all these kings who are assembled here, we existed in the past, we are now existing, and we shall exist in the future." That means individual existence will continue. He explains past, present and future. So where is imagination?

Mr. Malhotra: No imagination. But paraṁ pada, that is nirvāṇa, or whatever . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, paraṁ pada is just like you fly in the sky, go very high. So from here we cannot see that you are separately existing. But you are separately existing. It is my deficient eyes that I see that you are not.

Mr. Malhotra: Identification will remain always?

Prabhupāda: Always. Therefore it is said in the śāstra, āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ, ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninaḥ . . . (SB 10.2.32). It is said, "My Lord, the lotus-eyed, vimukta-mānina, if somebody artificially is thinking that he has become liberated or merged into the existence, āruhya kṛcchreṇa, for which he has undergone very severe tapasya," āruhya kṛcchreṇa . . . kṛcchreṇa means with great difficulty. Paraṁ padam, brahma-jyotir, patanti adhaḥ, "again he falls down," anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ . . . just like these rascals that are going in the sky to find out a place in the Mars and in the moon. And why they are coming back? If actually one has gone, then why he's coming back?

Mr. Malhotra: To tell to the others that they saw something.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Similarly, you will find the so-called sannyāsīs—not bhaktas—they undergo severe austerities, penances, but after some time they come to the worldly atmosphere. Because they could not get any place, therefore they come down. Just like the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs they say that this duniyā (world), jagat mithyā. If jagat is mithyā, you have left it, then why you come again to give some philanthropic service? If it is mithyā, then why you come again after so much? Is it not nonsense? If jagat is mithyā why you are coming again to this mithyā?

That means you could not get place in the satya. Therefore you come down again. That is stated in the śāstra. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam (SB 10.2.32). Although with severe austerities and penances might go to the paraṁ pada, patanty adhaḥ, anādṛta-yuṣmad, because he could not get shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he falls down. He must fall down to the material activities. Patanty adhaḥ. That is adho patha. As soon as a person, after undergoing severe austerities, becomes very highly elevated in the sannyāsa stage, but if he cannot get shelter at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then surely he shall fall down for these material activities, material enjoyment. That is the sign that he's fallen down.

Mr. Malhotra: Lord Kṛṣṇa we have to see in a personal way, have to see the entirety as the . . .

Prabhupāda: Lord Kṛṣṇa is everything.

Mr. Malhotra: Nirākāra.

Prabhupāda: Why nirākāra? He says "aham." Every sentence in the Bhagavad-gītā, He says "aham." So how He is nirākāra? Just like you, you are a person. When you say "I, I can do this," that is a person.

Mr. Malhotra: Because I have no other alternative but to communicate. I can communicate only "I" and "you." There is no other way.

Prabhupāda: No other way, therefore you are deficient. You cannot claim that you are God. Because you have no other way. You are forced by something. So somebody is controller upon you. Therefore you are different from the God. As you say: "I have no other way," that means you are dependent something else.

Mr. Malhotra: But God can communicate differently?

Prabhupāda: Therefore God and you are different. That is dvaita-vāda. You are different . . .

Mr. Malhotra: Why at all this started even? Why at all, say millions, trillions years back, how it started that God created this world? Then all are one and different.

Prabhupāda: Who created?

Mr. Malhotra: God.

Prabhupāda: So God is there. So God . . . you are created or you are subordinate to God? You are also there. So nitya, you are also existing eternally, and God is also eternally existing. But the difference between you and God is that God is maintaining everything and you are being maintained. That is the difference. You are one of the items which is maintained by God.

Mr. Malhotra: As long as I continue my identity that, "I am so and so. I am this body," or "I am a person, or ātmā, seated in this body, or dwelling in this body," when I dislodge my body from ātmā, then what is the position?

Prabhupāda: You are different from the body. You are different from the body. You are soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body is temporary, you are eternal. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You are nityaḥ śāśvata. You are never killed, even after the destruction of the body. That should . . . that is real understanding that, "I am not this body. After annihilation of this body, I shall continue." Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). You should know that you are eternal part and parcel of God. God is eternal. Just like gold and a small particle of gold, both of them are gold. A small particle of gold, it is also gold, but not equal to the gold mine. That is real understanding. And because you are little gold . . .

Mr. Malhotra: But potentiality?

Prabhupāda: Potential different, because a lump of gold and a small particle of gold, the value is not the same. Gold it is quality, but not the value the same. That you cannot say.

Mr. Malhotra: Quality-wise it is gold, but . . .

Prabhupāda: But quantity it is different. God is all-pervading. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. He is in everyone's heart. Can you live in everyone's heart? Can you know what I am thinking? Then how you can become God?

Mr. Malhotra: Well there are . . .

Prabhupāda: There are fools, rascals. There are others. (laughter)

Mr. Malhotra: But there are certain people who say that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, who says, they are rascals. They are rascals. We take them as rascals, that's all. How you can say that you are all-pervading? Can you say that? Even if you are very highly elevated, can you say what I am thinking? Then how do you claim God? God is all-pervading. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). You have read Bhagavad-gītā. There are two kṣetra-jñas. One kṣetra-jña, just like I am, you are. They are kṣetra-jña.

I know about my pains and pleasures of my body. You know. But I do not know what is pains and pleasure of your body; you do not know what is pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore there is difference. But God knows. That is the difference between you and God. How you claim "God"? You do not know what is the pains and pleasures of my body. You know the pains and pleasures of your body. I know the pains and pleasures of my body. But either you or me, we do not know the pains and pleasures of all bodies. And Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He knows everyone's pains and pleasure. That is the difference between you and Him.

Mr. Malhotra: But this is all right. As long as I maintain my identity . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to. If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking.

Mr. Malhotra: What if I submerge myself with the entire . . .

Prabhupāda: Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his . . .

Mr. Malhotra: Identity.

Prabhupāda: . . . conditioned identity. And when he agreed, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)," that is identity of oneness.

Mr. Malhotra: Surrender.

Prabhupāda: Surrender. That is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual, and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness.

Mr. Malhotra: Agreement with God is surrender.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). To serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness.

Mr. Malhotra: This is bhakti-yoga.

Prabhupāda: Any yoga. You are individual; God is individual. That is already explained, I told you. God says, Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Me, yourself and all these people who have gathered, they are all individuals. They were individuals in the past, they are individuals now, and we shall continue to remain individuals in the future."

Mr. Malhotra: Even if we surrender.

Prabhupāda: Surrender means agreement, that's all.

Mr. Malhotra: Agreement. Individuality will all along exist.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise why is He asking, "You surrender," unless there is individuality? Why this request is there? Because you are individual, you can deny it. That individuality continues. But if you have love for God, then you agree, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73)." So that is wanted. Not that he lost his individuality. Individuality is there.

Mr. Malhotra: Individuality remains. It seems so, that the individuality remains.

Prabhupāda: And this is the fact. Kṛṣṇa says. What Kṛṣṇa says, you have to accept. Otherwise, what is the use of reading Bhagavad-gītā? You cannot accept Bhagavad-gītā through your whims. That is nonsense. You must accept as it is. That is wanted.

Mr. Malhotra: This Satya Sai Baba, he is also disciple of Kṛṣṇa. How he produces . . .?

Prabhupāda: Then if he is disciple of Kṛṣṇa, he would not have foolishly said that he is Bhagavān. That means he is bogus. It is bogus . . . you cannot say . . . if you are disciple . . . just like they are my disciples. They will never say that they are equal to me. They will never say.

Mr. Malhotra: No, no, but what power he has got to produce just now . . .?

Prabhupāda: That anyone can do, magic, jugglery. It has no meaning.

Mr. Malhotra: He got, you know, this money.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he can get anything, but that is . . . magic. That is . . . magician also knows.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Professor Sarkar, a big magician, he kills . . . cuts people's body, then he joins them.

Prabhupāda: So many things. Magic jugglery is . . .

Mr. Malhotra: But there are some siddhis also. These siddhi, siddhis, some people.

Prabhupāda: That is siddhi, magic also siddhi. You are successful businessman, that is also siddhi. That is also siddhi. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is said, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Even one is siddha, still he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Malhotra: He cannot understand . . .?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Malhotra: But if he goes to āśrama, that where, and everybody sits there, the big Kṛṣṇa statue is there. In his room, personal room, Kṛṣṇa statue, and he has . . .

Prabhupāda: If he is at all devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he will never say that he is Bhagavān. That is foolishness. That very assertion is foolishness.

Mr. Malhotra: But Bhagavān, they don't call them Bhagavān.

Prabhupāda: That they write in the books. They don't call, but write in the books.

Hari-śauri: There was one article in the Blitz where it quoted him saying, "God is man, and man is God."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He said he is the incarnation for this age.

Prabhupāda: And where is the evidence? Anyone can say: "I am incarnation." (laughter) Any rascal can say.

Mr. Malhotra: Anyone can say. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: What is the proof? Just like this Ramakrishna, he was an illiterate priest, and at the time of his death he said to Vivekananda that, "I am Kṛṣṇa, I am Lord Rāma," and he accepted. He accepted. Ye sab chalta hai. hum bol diya hum bhi bhagvan hain aur hum maan liye, usko kya maloom. ek aadmi bola hum bahut amir aur phata kapda pehna hai hum usko maan le . . . (All this is going on. I say I am God and people will believe, what does he know. One man says I am very rich and wears torn clothes, can we believe him . . .) Let him create one motorcar. Why he's asking, "Please, sir, give me car"? That's all. He is such a great man—bogus. People are foolish persons, they are deviated by these bogus rascals. That is going on . . . sastra me jo hai wo nahi mante hain. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. bhagvan. Doosre se motor bheek mangta hai wo kaise bhagvan? Hum bolte hai hum bhagvan ka das, wo theek hai . . . (they don't follow what is given in the sastra. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇam. Bhagavān. They beg from others for living how they can be Bhagavān? But we say we are servant of God, which is right . . .)

Mr. Malhotra: Then he is servant, always servant?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nityānām, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaḥ . . . Servant sabi sochta hai hum kabhi malik ho jaye jo servant hai wo servant jaisa to hai koi malik ko sochne se aur doosre malik ke pas akarke usko pani lane do. (All the servants think, "When will I become the owner." The servant is like a servant, but when he considers himself an owner and orders another owner to get water for him.) Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108-109). Jeev ka ye swaroop hai. jo apne ko sochta hai mai bhagvan hoon. (The form of living entity is servant but he thinks "I am God".) That is his foolishness. And foolish person will accept. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). Therefore He shall remain the Supreme always. We have to refer to the Vedic śāstras. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. This is description of Bhagavān, that He has nothing to do, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Uska magic deekha ki bhagvan thode ho jata hai, wo to bhagvan teen mahine ka hai. (If he shows magic he does not become God, that type of God is only for 3 months.) Either he is three months old or three years old or three hundred years old, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, nobody can be equal or greater than Him. If someone is equal to Him, then how He is Bhagavān?

Mr. Malhotra: How it can be that so many sages of the past, they proclaimed ahaṁ brahmāsmi.

Prabhupāda: Brahman. Brahman to hai hi, (You are Brahman,) because you are part and parcel of Parabrahman. That I have already told you, that gold, big gold and small particle, that is gold. Similarly, Bhagavān Parabrahman, and we are part and parcel of Him. Therefore I am Brahman. But I am not Parabrahman. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Para-brahman by Arjuna: paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Para-brahman. So param, this word is used, Paramātmā, Parabrahman, Parameśvara. Why? That is the difference. One is supreme and one is subordinate. Subordinate Brahman. You are Brahman, there is no doubt of it. But not that Parabrahman. If you are Parabrahman, then why you are making sādhana to become Parabrahman? Why? If you are Parabrahman, then you are Parabrahman always. Why you have fallen in this condition that you have to perform sādhana to become Parabrahman? That is foolishness. You are not Parabrahman. You are Brahman. You are gold, a small particle. But you cannot say that "I am gold mine." That you cannot do. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So he is checking if it is time to go out . . . are you going to come with us also? Very good.

Prabhupāda: Bring little water. These my disciples, they are part and parcel of me. Whole mission is going on with their cooperation. But if he says that, "I am equal to my Guru Mahārāja," then that is offense.

Mr. Malhotra: Suppose guru desires that my disciple should rise higher than me.

Prabhupāda: That means he is in lower stage. That you have to accept first of all.

Mr. Malhotra: Like as a father sees that his children grow.

Prabhupāda: Yes, still father begets father, and a child cannot become father.

Mr. Malhotra: Father begets father, but he feels that he may . . . will progress . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Father may want to see that the son is equally qualified, but still the father is father, and child is child. That is perpetual. Similarly, a part and parcel of God may be very powerful, but that does not mean that he has become God.

Mr. Malhotra: Other traditions, guru disciple, then the disciple becomes guru, then disciple. The gurus may change.

Prabhupāda: They cannot change. If there are change of guru, the disciple acts. But does not . . . he'll never say that, "I have become equal or one with guru." That is not so.

Mr. Malhotra: I am thinking about this, Swāmījī, that your Guru Mahārāja is preaching through you, and you are preaching through them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: So disciple is guru through his disciples.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). But that does not become . . . he has become. He may be representative of guru, representative of God, but it does not mean that he has become God.

Mr. Malhotra: But he becomes guru to his disciples.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Mr. Malhotra: Never equal to his guru.

Prabhupāda: Not equal; representative. Not equal. I send one representative of this man, and he may be very expert, doing very good business, still he cannot be equal with me. He is acting as my representative, that's another thing. But not that he has become the original proprietor.

Mr. Malhotra: But as your disciples, you are taken as guru.

Prabhupāda: But they will never say that they have become equal with me, "I have advanced to be my guru." Never say. Just like this boy, he is offering obeisances. He may be expert in preaching more than me, but he knows that, "I am subordinate." Otherwise, how he shall offer obeisances? He can think, "Oh, now I am so learned. I am so advanced. Why shall I accept him as superior?" No. That continues. Even after my death, after my disappearance, he will offer obeisances to my picture.

Mr. Malhotra: But amongst his disciples he will be worshiped . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he remains a disciple of his guru. He will never say that, "Now I have become guru, so I don't care for my guru." He will never say. Just like I am doing, but I am worshiping my guru still. So I remain subordinate to my guru, always. Even though I have become guru, still I am subordinate to my guru.

Mr. Malhotra: But qualitatively . . .

Prabhupāda: Qualitatively equal, I have already said. Not quantitatively.

Mr. Malhotra: Qualitatively we are one. Quantitatively.

Prabhupāda: Why? Do you think a grain of gold and a big gold lump is same?

Mr. Malhotra: Gold, I think I am also gold.

Prabhupāda: No, gold that is accepted, quality. That if you say . . . this is explanation—you must have brain to understand—that a small particle of gold and a big gold, they are gold in quality, but the big gold is millions of dollars and a small particle is few dollars. Just see. This is accepted. This Māyāvāda theory has made people atheists, that "I am God, I am equal to God." Very bad theory.

Mr. Malhotra: From where these things also come? From where it comes?

Prabhupāda: From the Vedas. Vedas says, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate, Upaniṣads. Na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (CC Madhya 13.65, purport; Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8).

Mr. Malhotra: Who gives this asura-buddhi? From where this dirty, filth grows?

Prabhupāda: Asura-buddhi and sura-buddhi, due to our little independence. Just like we are talking. So we do not agree; therefore we are talking. So one of us may be asura and one may be sura. Therefore we do not agree. Otherwise, there is no use of talking. So that is natural. That is the conditioned stage. Because we are conditioned by the material nature, some of us are asuras and some of them are suras. Dvau bhūta-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva, devatā, and asura. Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ smṛto daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ (Padma Purāṇa). Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devatā, and just opposite number is asura.

Who does not recognize the authority of God, he is asura. He himself becomes God foolishly. That is not God. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ (BS 5.52). Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā. This, about the sun, description in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Yac-cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ. Aśeṣa-tejāḥ, unlimited potency, energy, heating energy. Such a powerful planet. Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ. Still it is carrying out the order of somebody. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi: "I offer my obeisances to Govinda." But if I say I am equal to Govinda, I can stop sun, "Don't bother me by heating. Stop," will it become . . .? Then how I become all-powerful? Let me stop the activities of the sun. Or at night there is no sun, can I ask the sun, "Get up. I want light immediately"? Is it possible? Then how I become the God? Nobody cares for my order.

Mr. Malhotra: They say those who know their Bhāgavata, they call themselves Bhagavān.

Prabhupāda: That anyone can say, that "I know my Bhāgavata." Nobody knows. I am Bhagavān but nobody cares for me. What kind of Bhagavān? It is rascal Bhagavān.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When Bhagavān has a toothache he goes to the dentist.

Prabhupāda: Yes, when there's a toothache he goes to the doctor. These kind of nonsense has to be stopped. Otherwise people become atheists. "Anyone can become God, anyone can become Bhagavān."

Mr. Malhotra: This Rajneesh, I tell you, he has . . .

Prabhupāda: I don't say about Rajneesh because I have no acquaintance with him, but anyone says that he is Bhagavān, he can do anything.

Mr. Malhotra: Somebody asked him, "Why you claim to be God, or Bhagavān?" He clarified that "It is not the creator or the equal Bhagavān. I know by . . . I have realized by . . ."

Prabhupāda: But God says "I am the creator of everything." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8). This is Bhagavān.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can go, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We will go to the car. (break) (in car) . . . to the sun planet, beginning is the sunshine.

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, beginning is the sunshine.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, to go to the Absolute Truth, you begin with impersonal Brahman. Just as sunshine is impersonal, but everyone can see the sunshine is coming from the sun surface. Everyone knows that. Therefore the sunshine is not so important as the sun globe. Similarly brahma-tattva-nirviśeṣa, nirākāra-brahma is there, but more important than is the localized aspect. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). God is all-pervading. The sunshine is all-pervading, and as Paramātmā He is also all-pervading. But if you can enter into the sun globe, you will meet with the sun-god. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." So there is sun-god. Sun-god and the sun globe and the sunshine, they are one, but different stages of understanding. Similarly, Brahman understanding, Paramātmā understanding, then the Supreme Personality of Godhead understanding. Advaya-jñāna. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). But if you stop simply in the sunshine, that means you have no knowledge of the sun-god or the sun globe. If you have simply knowledge of the sun globe, then you are not aware of what is the sun-god. But if you know sun-god, then you know what is sun globe and the sunshine. That is wanted. That is perfect knowledge.

Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When, after many many births, when one is actually in knowledge, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, understanding that Kṛṣṇa is everything, that mahātmā is sudurlabha, very rare. Somebody knows only impersonal Brahman, the jñānīs. Somebody knows the Paramātmā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe (BG 18.61). And one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is perfect. (break) . . . this stage of understanding Kṛṣṇa, your knowledge is imperfect. (break) . . . śāstras, but unfortunately we do not refer to the authority of the śāstras. We manufacture our own way.

Mr. Malhotra: No, actually what has happened is that there has been too many interpretations.

Prabhupāda: There cannot be interpretations.

Mr. Malhotra: No, there are certain people . . .

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness.

Mr. Malhotra: That is what I said, huh. So there are so many interpretations that you get confused. Because of the same thing, some interpret, say, a different way.

Prabhupāda: One thing is that you have to become intelligent. Just like Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Now why I shall accept interpretation on these plain words? That is my foolishness. If somebody says, "dharma-kṣetra means this body and Pāṇḍava means the five senses," why this nonsense interpretation? If you are not intelligent, then you will accept such rascals interpreting unnecessarily. Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. But when the things are clear, why you should accept interpretation? That is my foolishness. There is no need of interpretation. (break) . . . is it still there? Why, if the rascal interprets, "Kurukṣetra means this body," why shall I accept it? Kurukṣetra is still there. There is no difficulty to understand. And if somebody interprets . . . (break) . . . interpretation, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that as soon as you interpret, the whole thing is lost. So why shall I be so foolish, I shall accept something which is lost?

Mr. Malhotra: No. Rather, Kṛṣṇa had His own interpretation.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but why shall I accept?

Mr. Malhotra: . . . had His own interpretation rather. All the people who share . . .

Prabhupāda: You have, interpretation, you have to refer to the Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā says as soon as you accept interpretation, it is lost.

Mr. Malhotra: Then the meaning is lost.

Prabhupāda: Bās. So under the circumstances . . . that means I am also foolish. Any rascal gives any interpretation—I accept. That is my foolishness. So why should I become foolish? Radhakrishnan may be very big man, but if he does something wrong, he will be hanged.

Mr. Malhotra: No, he . . . ślokas are there. All the Bhagavad-gītā ślokas are there.

Prabhupāda: But I must have intelligence that why this rascal is interpreting in a different way.

Mr. Malhotra: And Sanskrit is the language. So it has got the same . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not very difficult. Just like in the Ninth Chapter, Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). And Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Why? Kṛṣṇa says, "Just think of Me—man-manāḥ—just become My devotee, and just offer Me obeisances, worship Me." It is plain language. And if some rascal says: "No, no, it is not to Kṛṣṇa," why shall I accept it?

Mr. Malhotra: It is not the personified Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: You have read it?

Mr. Malhotra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you see. I shall immediately detect that here is a rascal. Because Kṛṣṇa says personally, and he says it is not to the person. Just see.

Mr. Malhotra: But Kṛṣṇa had been on this earth in flesh and bones.

Prabhupāda: That is history, Mahābhārata. And all the ācāryas, they have accepted—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka. Svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me (BG 10.13). Arjuna accepts Him, Para-brahman. You are Para-brahman. Not that "Because I am Your friend and I am accepting You as Para-brahman," but all the ācāryas, they have accepted. (break) . . . mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam. "Because I am talking with you as a human being, only rascals, they think I am human being." If you think Kṛṣṇa as having flesh and bone, then you become a rascal, immediately. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11): "I am not made of this bone and flesh. I am cinmaya, I am fully spirit soul." So one who does not know it, he is a rascal. So as soon as you will say that He is made of bone and flesh, that means you are rascal. (laughter) Why shall I hear you?

Mr. Malhotra: When Lord Kṛṣṇa came into being, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: That does not mean that . . . suppose I am here. I am driving with you. But there is difference between you and me. So Kṛṣṇa comes as human being, that does not mean He is human being. Why don't you understand this?

Mr. Malhotra: That is okay. But from the normal, you know . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your study. That is foolish study. Therefore He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11): "The rascals think that I am one of the human being." If he is one of the human being, how he can say, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). In the human society, there are big men, you are big man, I am small man, he is still more, he is still more, he is still bigger. There are so many varieties. But He says: "No more superior than Me." And that is God.

Mr. Malhotra: No one is supreme than Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: That He says, of course.

Prabhupāda: He says everything, but because we are foolish we do not hear Him. That is the difficulty.

Mr. Malhotra: We don't understand Him.

Prabhupāda: No, we understand. But we do not accept it.

Mr. Malhotra: We don't accept it.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty to understand? God is superior. Everyone knows it. But I will not accept, he will not accept. Unless one is superior, how He can be God? (break) . . . sevayā. Therefore you have to find out somebody who knows Him. Otherwise you will be in darkness. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: (indistinct Hindi) . . . over bridge. But where we are going, Ambleshwar, from there Kṛṣṇā-nadī starts.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Kṛṣṇā-nadī is for us.

Mr. Malhotra: From Ambleshwar. Then there is old, old mandir, very old mandir, temple, there are five, they say, five nadīs are coming.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Kaumuda, Kāverī . . .

Mr. Malhotra: Kṛṣṇā, Kāverī, Veṇā . . . five rivers, they say, they flow from there. We will go there. Tomorrow morning we'll go there. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . just now. In the morning it was little cold. Now it is very pleasing.

Mr. Malhotra: It is. But since you have been going all over the Europe and Am . . . you must be accustomed to cold. It is severe cold.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I was going to morning walk when there was snowfall. I was walking on snow.

Mr. Malhotra: Actually when snow falls it is not very cold, but when there is breeze, then it is very unbearable.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: . . . the first month, I think, except April and May. All the rest months.

Prabhupāda: All the year.

Mr. Malhotra: May is quite hot, and April . . .

Prabhupāda: Beginning.

Mr. Malhotra: Not beginning. Middle of April to May and June. Then in June rain starts. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . legislation that fifty percent of revenues was spent in military. Bhaya-vitta. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: Tad guru vijñāta . . .

Prabhupāda: Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12).

Mr. Malhotra: Guru-vijñāna . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. This is Vedic injunction. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet, this word is used. This means "must," vidhi-liṅ. This is the form of vidhi-liṅ, in grammar. Vidhi-liṅ is applied when there is no question of duality. You must. If you want to know that transcendental science, you must approach guru. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. And who is guru? Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. Śrotriyam means one who is guru by hearing from his guru, śrotriyam. This is paramparā. Not that all of a sudden he becomes guru. No. That is not guru. Guru means śrotriyam. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). And after hearing perfectly from his guru, he is brahma-niṣṭham. Just like Arjuna, after hearing from Kṛṣṇa, his guru, he became devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Not became, he was devotee. Still he became perfect devotee. Brahma-niṣṭham. This is the guru's qualification.

And in another, the Bhāgavata it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One must surrender to guru who is actually inquisitive, yes, about the Absolute Truth. What kind of inquisitive? Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam: the best aim of life or transcendental aim of life. He requires guru. Then what is guru's qualification? The next line is that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam, śābde pare ca niṣṇātam (SB 11.3.21). Guru is completely in awareness of all the Vedic knowledge. That is guru. Not a loafer class. (laughter) Śrotriyam. One who has heard perfectly Vedas from his guru. And what is the symptom that he has heard from the authority of the . . .? Brahma-niṣṭham. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. The symptom is that he has completely taken shelter of the Supreme Brahman, rejecting or finishing all material desires. No more material desires. Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. He has taken shelter of Brahman, upaśama, rejecting—no more hankering after anything material.

Mr. Malhotra: No more hankering. But he has to eat. He has to eat, he has to clothe.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not hankering. That is not hankering.

Mr. Malhotra: The minimum needs of the body.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . so long the body is there. That is wanted. Just like about the Gosvāmīs it is said, nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. One has to conquer over sleeping, eating, sex and fearing. A saintly person has no fearing, because he depends on Kṛṣṇa. But these things particularly conquered over. Simply little eating, that's all. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi. At least trying to conquer over sleeping, eating and sex.

Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping, eating and . . .

Prabhupāda: Sex life. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: . . . sleeping at all, or some little sleep?

Prabhupāda: Practically no sleeping. Practically no eating and no sex life.

Mr. Malhotra: Sleeping means actual sleeping or awareness, I mean awakening of the mind or awakening . . .

Prabhupāda: No, actual sleeping. Sleeping means waste of time. So long you sleep, it is a waste of time. Better reduce sleep.

Mr. Malhotra: But you have to sleep sometimes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, some, some.

Mr. Malhotra: Some part of the day or part of the . . .

Prabhupāda: That also you will find, those who are highly elevated, they can avoid.

Mr. Malhotra: They can completely avoid sleeping? Hundred percent?

Prabhupāda: No. They can, but they do not show like that. (laughter) Otherwise, artificially one would like to imitate it.

Mr. Malhotra: But in the medical theory they are saying so much insomnia.

Prabhupāda: No insomnia, he becomes mad. (laughter) That is another thing. That is disease.

Hari-śauri: One of my parents' friends, she hadn't been to sleep for seven months because of a nervous condition when she was going crazy. I saw that.

Mr. Malhotra: There must be sleeping pills.

Prabhupāda: Yes, in Western countries, tranquilizer.

Mr. Malhotra: I was in America, you know. So in New York I stayed in one hotel, and every evening, that bellboy, he was keeping two tablets for each of us in the room. Actually, I don't know what type of tablets they have done. We have slept thoroughly. In the morning he came to make the bedding. So he said, "Sir, you have not taken these tablets?" I said: "What are these tablets?" "Sleeping pills." I said, "No, I don't take it." "And you could sleep?" I said: "Yes." Then he said: "Can I have these?" "Yes, yes, you can have by all means." (laughter) So he took away all the pills for his own use. So I mean most of the people, they can't sleep without these sleeping pills. Their mind is so agitated and so disturbed. This material . . .

Prabhupāda: Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām, in the śāstra it is said: "In the material world everyone is always full of anxiety." Full of anxiety.

Mr. Malhotra: The more you're engrossed in material things, the more anxiety you are in.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because he has accepted something which is asat—asat means which will not endure, such things—on account of this, he is always full of anxieties. Asat, this body is asat. Asad-grahāt. Because we have accepted this material body, we must be always full of anxieties. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). Although this body is temporary, still, so long the body is there, he will suffer. Kleśada. Kleśada means always giving trouble—this trouble, that trouble, this trouble, that trouble.

Mr. Malhotra: This road straight leads to Bangalore, Madras. This road goes to south, entire south. You can go by this road only to Kanyakumari.

Prabhupāda: Oh!

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Cape Comorin, right up to Calicut.

Prabhupāda: And all the tīrthas are on the four sides. Very good road?

Mr. Malhotra: Last year in the month of December I went to Rāmeśvaram.

Prabhupāda: On this road?

Mr. Malhotra: On this road. Of course, I went by air to Bangalore, and from there we went by car. But this road goes straight. (break) . . . by car, to Calcutta by air, then from there to that Bhubaneshwar by train, and then from there by car, like that. (break) It is very small place, Dvārakā. It is very small place, and in that leak was, an entire area was destroyed completely. Even communications could not be restored for three months. But Dvārakā itself was untouched completely. But on the way we found, because we went by car from here, we found roads, everything was destroyed completely. You could see demolished, the tops of houses gone away in the cyclone.

Prabhupāda: Maharashtra Province is rich? I don't think so.

Mr. Malhotra: It is like this, that Maharashtra is industrially quite stable. But that only Bombay and one, two cities. The rest of the Maharashtra is poor. There is not much cultivation.

Prabhupāda: But industry, it belongs to the other persons, not to the Maharashtrians.

Mr. Malhotra: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: All these Bombay industries, they belong to the outsiders.

Mr. Malhotra: Outsiders. Now in Punjab, for instance, now they have created sufficient wheat to cater the entire country. That is four-fifths of the total need of the country of wheat is supplied by Punjab.

Prabhupāda: But it is always.

Mr. Malhotra: Punjab and Haryana, now they are two, but both together.

Prabhupāda: Punjab is the best province in India.

Mr. Malhotra: You know we came and settled in Poona after partition of the country. Previously we were in Rawalpindi. (to the driver) Kya kar rahe ho bhai? (What are you doing brother?) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . on my way to Kashmir.

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, because at Rawalpindi you could get taxi, then buses. After Rawalpindi you have to go by train. Then from there you could get car, taxi, and in those days there were yakas also. You know. Tongas. Tongas or buses. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . young age when I was twenty-five years. (break) . . . via Jammu.

Mr. Malhotra: Jammu, Jammu and Kashmir.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And I came back via Rawalpindi.

Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā, you came back via Rawalpindi. (break) You have, I mean, thought of spiritual bending, or spiritual . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we are trained up, because we belong to Kṛṣṇa family. So Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa worship is our family tradition. Our forefathers, my father, my maternal uncles, we are Vaiṣṇava family, belonging to the Caitanya-sampradāya.

Mr. Malhotra: But how you entered in business, I mean.

Prabhupāda: Because we were trained up from the very beginning of our life by our father, mother.

Mr. Malhotra: Grandfather also?

Prabhupāda: Yes, our whole family. We have our family Deity, Dāmodara. In my childhood I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. And then, fortunately, I got my Guru Mahārāja, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. So this was a good fortune, from the very beginning we were trained up. So in the beginning of our life, I was worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and playing with Ratha-yātrā. The same thing is being done now, in a larger scale. (laughter) Nitya yukta upāsate. There is no change.

Mr. Malhotra: People must be very curious in California when this Ratha-yātrā, Jagannātha. They must be very curious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But they enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. Those who are even not my students, they also come to me, "Thank you, Prabhupāda. Thank you, Prabhupāda." They say like that. They enjoy very much, dance like anything, when the Ratha-yātrā goes. They say: "It is life." They are dancing. "This is life. We do not know what is happening, but we are dancing." They say like that.

Mr. Malhotra: Dancing, this ballroom dancing?

Prabhupāda: No, around the road, Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing. (laughter) There is no need of ballroom. They become mad, dancing. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. That is ecstasy. So when the ecstasy is there, they understand this is life. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: Mr. Biyani, Biyani. He is just Birla's tea company chairman looking after tea. Last time I was in Delhi about two months back, so I just talked about you that I had to meet you and we could go to Vṛndāvana. Because at that time I was told that you were there. So he knew you very well; he had been to your discourses, Mr. Biyani. He's Marwari. They are in Calcutta, that tea business, export tea business. We agreed on one this thing, that it is very easy, rather, to make Indians understand the spiritual teachings of Lord Kṛṣṇa, because in homes, in houses, forefathers, grandmothers, mothers, they are doing, I mean, always. But to, I mean, impart this knowledge to the . . .

Prabhupāda: Foreigners.

Mr. Malhotra: Foreigners, and that to who have more or less completely, I mean, very much away from the spiritual life, very much engrossed in material life, very much engrossed. And it was something very, very, very difficult, right? Without the blessings of Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself . . . (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Therefore their fathers are charging me that "This man knows something, mesmerism." (laughter)

Mr. Malhotra: Their fathers are charging with that this man knows some mesmerism. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Brainwash.

Mr. Malhotra: Brainwash, ācchā. How you entered in their hearts?

Prabhupāda: Mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Mr. Malhotra: Hare Kṛṣṇa mesmerism. That is also mesmerism, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Prabhupāda: Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This is the process of cleansing the heart. So if it is done properly, everyone becomes cleansed of all dirty things. Naturally he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Mr. Malhotra: I was rather very much surprised when I first met, Prabhupāda, about four or five devotees on the streets of this Honolulu, Honolulu first. Because I went from this side, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, and then entered in America through Honolulu, Hawaii. So when I went I was just in the morning, I was trying to get the tourist bus for moving in the whole city to see. And then on the main road, you know that main road . . . have you been to Honolulu?

Prabhupāda: No. He has gone.

Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā. You have been to Honolulu?

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Mr. Malhotra: Five devotees were having drums, this khol, they were dancing like, I mean, in their own mood, you know. So then I had a curiosity. I just stopped one of them and I said: "Well, mister, I would like to know about all this." He said, "Yes, you come to our temple in the morning and we'll tell you all about it." But I said that, "What you are doing?" "We are playing kīrtana." I said, "Well, why you are out on the streets?" "Because these all demons. These are all demons, you know."

Prabhupāda: Demons.

Mr. Malhotra: ". . . demons, you know. So those who do not have any spiritual knowledge, so we want to penetrate in their ears, and through their ears in their hearts, the name of Kṛṣṇa. So that even if they don't like it, well, the Kṛṣṇa name should enter in their hearts."

Prabhupāda: That is . . . this mantra . . .

Mr. Malhotra: "So that is what we are doing. So even if they don't like it we are doing. So whosoever is passing by, he will have at least his ears will be accustomed to hear the name of Lord Kṛṣṇa." I said: "But in Gītā it is said that those who do not wish to know the true knowledge, well, it is forbidden for the devotees or for the followers to tell them anything about spiritual knowledge." "So that, sir, we are not giving, imparting knowledge to each individual by catching them. We are just playing ourselves. So whosoever likes it, he can stand by us. Otherwise we are not . . ." So they replied also correctly to this also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and Kṛṣṇa says . . .

Mr. Malhotra: Ācchā, then I said: "What is this?" "This is śikhā." I said: "Well what it is meant for?" So he said: "Well, this is the . . ." What he told me was this exactly, that the aerial of knowledge. He said that this is the aerial of knowledge. I said: "Is it your own interpretation?" "No, but I think that I feel that way. This is the aerial of knowledge." (break) . . . that, "You come have prasādam in the morning." So next day we had to leave actually. So we were in the morning busy going to airport. Then I met in this New York. Then when I came to Europe, then I was sitting in one restaurant in London, and then a big group of about 15, 18, 20 devotees, they were having a good chanting, and they were . . .

Prabhupāda: Our men regularly go on the Oxford St.

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Oxford. On that street only there was Indian restaurant where this rasagullās and tea and all that is available. So we were sitting having our this thing, and then they passed.

Prabhupāda: Our men, they can prepare rasagullā, samosā, kachorī.

Mr. Malhotra: Now this Bombay center, when I visited, Girirāja he showed me, and the restaurant, that vegetarian restaurant which will be coming up, that is good. (break) . . . I mean is it regular new films are being made, or only one or two films have been made so far?

Girirāja: We make more films.

Hari-śauri: There's another one just coming up now which explains the philosophy in more detail. The films were to show general activities, that was The Hare Kṛṣṇa People. The new film was to show the farming scheme that Prabhupāda set up in New Vrindavan, and many other farms we have now. And there was one other film to show how the books are produced and then delivered to the public. So gradually more and more are coming out.

Mr. Malhotra: You know one thing I have found that there is spotless cleanliness, you know, in the centers. Whereas in our temples here in India, even when we go to say Hardwar and Rishikesh and all these, the temples, the outer cleanliness, not proper emphasis is given by the management.

Prabhupāda: I stress on this cleanliness very much. If they keep unclean, I chastise them like anything. (laughing) They have learned this art. I always say, "Cleanliness is next to godliness."

Mr. Malhotra: About two years back, two, three of your devotees came to our house here. Naturally we offered them, "Would you like to have coffee, tea?" They said: "No." Then we said: "Would you like to have Coca-cola?" They said, "No." Then I said: "What would you like to have? Milk?" "Yes." Lassi, chach? "Yes." Fruit. "Yes." It happened so that Girirāja came to us twice, and twice it was this ekādaśī. Now ekādaśī day they are not supposed to eat this wheat or flour or anything. So when last we came to Mahabaleshwar, so we brought some paraṭās with this gobi in it.

Prabhupāda: Ekādaśī.

Mr. Malhotra: We didn't know about ekādaśī. When we came to Mahabaleshwar, we opened. They said: "No, we can't eat because it is ekādaśī." So we thought that, "No, you won't eat, so it looks odd that we should eat." But we were very hungry, you know. In the morning we didn't take anything. We said: "All right, we eat, now we will go to the bazaar and see if we could get something." Then we went to Mahabaleshwar, it was all closed, because it was raining season. And then there was one shop which had bananas, you know, good amount of bananas. So we took one dozen or two dozen bananas, and then . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Banana is very good. You can make banana and potato. Potato boil and mixed with banana, and make nice purī. And then . . .

Mr. Malhotra: How Girirāja, I just ask you, how you sort of took to all these good things, I would say, of life? I mean in natural form, or with some self-discipline, or with some coercion, or with some what?

Girirāja: It was Prabhupāda's mercy. I was looking for a guru. Actually, whenever I heard there was a svāmī or a yogī, I would always go, even hundreds of miles. But I was never satisfied. But Śrīla Prabhupāda perfectly satisfied all of my questions. And I liked the process—chanting, dancing, taking prasādam, offering ārati—and I liked the devotees. It was very pleasing. So I immediately decided this is my real life.

Mr. Malhotra: No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekādaśī day, all such things, I mean.

Girirāja: That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. Ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma-pṛcchāt sādhu-mārgānugamanam. These are the process.

Mr. Malhotra: Sādhu-mārga.

Prabhupāda: Sādhu-mārga.

Girirāja: We study the śāstras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. (break)

Prabhupāda: Four places: Hardwar, Prayāga, Vṛndāvana . . .

Mr. Malhotra: But after every eleven years or . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. It comes in rotation, every four years.

Mr. Malhotra: Every four years. So there are sort of ardha-kumbhīs and then kumbha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Allahabad they actually hold every year, Māgha-mela.

Mr. Malhotra: Māgha-mela. But this is not every year, this time people are . . .

Prabhupāda: It is very, I mean to say, atmosphere becomes surcharged. Great spiritual advancement. Very nice.

Mr. Malhotra: Abhi 15 tarik ko wahan par kuch hai kuch, aap ja rahe hain, kab jayenge? (On 15th there is some event happening there. Are you going? When are you going?)

'Prabhupāda:' Jayenge 15 tarik tak. aap aaiye. (Yes I will go around 15th.)

Prabhupāda: Iran is like that, but no green, simply sand.

Mr. Malhotra: They are the mountains of Deccan. They say that these all mountains were under sea.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everything was . . . pralaya-payodhi-jale dhṛtavān asi vedam. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: Swamiji yahan par bhi south me bade ache-ache mandir hain. (Swamiji, here also in the South there are very good temples.) (break) . . . for quite some time at a particular spot. This spot was shown to us. And people have very great reverence for that spot. So now, at one time we accept Lord Rāma the supreme master of a particular yuga, and then He had to worship Lord Śiva. So who is, I mean, supreme? Lord Śiva or Lord Rāma?

Prabhupāda: Lord Rāma is the Lord. Śiva is devotee. Sometimes you wash the feet of your son. That does not mean you are a servant

Mr. Malhotra: Sometime . . .?

Prabhupāda: You wash the feet of your son. But that does not mean you are a servant of the son. Kṛṣṇa . . . why Rāma? Kṛṣṇa, when Sudāmā Vipra came to His house, He washed his feet.

Mr. Malhotra: Sab bhakton ke bhagat. (The supreme of all the devotees.)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa immediately got down from His siṁhāsana and took his lotus . . . touch his feet. And Nārada Muni was smiling. Nara-līlā.

Mr. Malhotra: Nārada Muni was smiling. Ye bhagvan kya kar rahe hain? (What is God doing?)

Prabhupāda: Nārada Muni knew it that He is the Supreme Lord, but he did not check it.

Mr. Malhotra: He let Lord Kṛṣṇa bow. This is the biggest paradox.

Prabhupāda: Mad-bhakta-pūjābhyadhika (SB 11.19.21). Kṛṣṇa is pleased when His devotee is worshiped. Kṛṣṇa kabhi-kabhi radharani ka payr choota hai. (Kṛṣṇa sometimes touches the feet of Radharani.)

Mr. Malhotra: Now I went to Dvārakā Purī, so there is Bheda Dvārakā in the sea. One is Dvārakā Purī, then about, I think, ten, twelve miles away there is Bheda Dvārakā. At Bheda Dvārakā, that is the residential palace of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and seven rāṇīs of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They show each building, their whole building. So what was that?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa had 16,108 queens.

Mr. Malhotra: 16,108 queens. 16,108. But there they show only, I think, 8 or 7.

Prabhupāda: All are described, that He had 16,000 palaces. And Nārada Muni came to see Him, what He is doing actually. He saw different activities, and Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself to 16,108. Each rāṇī had ten sons,

Mr. Malhotra: Each rāṇī had ten sons.

Prabhupāda: And they had sons also. In this way the Yadu-vaṁśa was crores.

Mr. Malhotra: There was one story that Lord Kṛṣṇa was going on rath (chariot), and then He had to be at the place of horse of the rath because of some śhrap (curse) of some muni. That is given there.Idhar bhuma do. (Turn around here.) (break) So we get frustrated. But where the first apple came? Where the very seed of first apple planted on this earth planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). Kṛṣṇa answered this question. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām: "I am the original seed of everything."

Mr. Malhotra: Otherwise, it is very difficult, that wherefrom the very first seed came.

Prabhupāda: And He says another place:

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

(BG 10.8)

Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Everything is answered in Bhagavad-gītā. (break) There is river, there is fountain . . .

Mr. Malhotra: River, fountain . . . (indistinct) . . . volumes. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . written by D. L. Raya. Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā . . . (indistinct) . . . hari hari āche. Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera. "Out of all these countries, there is a first-class country, and that is my country, India." Dhana dhanyo puspa bhara amader ei vasundhārā, Tāhar majhe āche deśe eka sakala deśe sera. So the India is sakala deśe sera, the best of all other countries.

Indian man: best of all countries. Aisa kyon hai, Indai ko hi shreya mile sara. (Why is it that India gets all the credit?) All saints . . .

Prabhupāda: No, actually, India is the best country. There is no doubt. Even these boys, they say India is the best. Puṇya-bhūmi. Religion agar study karna hai to India. sab communist ko sikhate hain (If you want to study religion then go to India. They teach all the communists) that "If you want to study religion, then go to India." These boys of Western countries, they come to India not to learn the so-called science. They have enough in their country. They do not come here how to manufacture aeroplane.

Mr. Malhotra: For technology we have to go there.

Prabhupāda: There is no need.

Indian man: No need.

Prabhupāda: It is simply bogus. The first thing you require . . . you have got this body. You have to eat something and you have to dress yourself. You can get from this land. Keep some cows, grow your agricultural product, and sow cotton, then all economic problem is solved. And save time and understand what is your relationship with God. That is India. This is Vedic civilization.

Mr. Malhotra: This era happened in the past similar.

Prabhupāda: India is based on this principle.

Mr. Malhotra: In every era demons and good people must be.

Prabhupāda: That is there.

Mr. Malhotra: Always must be there. The ratio may be different.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: Bad and good, mātra may be different.

Prabhupāda: But India is especially meant for understanding God. That is India's . . . just like this place, such a nice place, automatically you'll remember God.

Mr. Malhotra: You will like this place, this Panchgani, where we are going now. A wonderful peaceful place, very peaceful. The atmosphere . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . live peacefully, save time, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is my mission.

Mr. Malhotra: The requirement of every human being is . . .

Prabhupāda: Very simple.

Mr. Malhotra: Very simple. But all these, you know, these added, added, added . . .

Prabhupāda: That is asuric. Yes. To increase artificially necessities of life. And become entangled.

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

(SB 7.5.31)

These rascals, they do not know what is the aim of life. The aim of life is to go back home, back to Godhead. That they do not know. They are trying to adjust things by material arrangement. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā. This hope will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. This material energy is the external energy of the Lord. So they are enamored by the external energy; they have no information of the internal energy, svarūpa-śakti. Just like every one of us in the conditioned state, we are busy with this body, the external energy. And the internal energy, the soul, is there. We have no information. Although we practically daily see that as soon as the internal energy is off, it is nothing but as good as the stone. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are giving importance to this external energy. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And they are being encouraged by the so-called leaders to give stress on this external energy, although they are tightly tied with the laws of nature. The laws of nature will finish this body. But still they are attached to this body. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. I had been to that Gandhi's place.

Mr. Malhotra: Gandhi's place, Wardha.

Prabhupāda: Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the . . . after all, he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage. Why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? Boliye hamara question theek hai ki nahi to unko . . . me hi rehna hai. (Tell me if my question is correct or not, so they must stay in the . . .) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers?

Mr. Malhotra: No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule.

Prabhupāda: No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter)

Mr. Malhotra: That is a different thing.

Prabhupāda: But that means . . . we do not get such information from Bhagavad-gītā, that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gītā and did this business, mislead people? He took Bhagavad-gītā and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life . . . his, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this.

Mr. Malhotra: He used to stay in bhangi colonies, Gandhi. Hmm?

Prabhupāda: So, and he was killed in the bhangi colony. No, he was killed in the Birla's place. And there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Although he was thinking, "This is my life, Bhagavad-gītā"—without Kṛṣṇa. What is this?

Mr. Malhotra: Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa? He never commented on Third Chapter.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Any chapter. The beginning is bhagavān uvāca. Now how he can describe Bhagavān? This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31).

Mr. Malhotra: He used Bhagavad-gītā for political purposes.

Prabhupāda: That is, political purpose, you may. But even politically, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7): "Fight. But always remember Me." That is politics. Kṛṣṇa never says that you forget and fight. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). This is Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You give up politics." Actually, the Battle of Kurukṣetra is politics. But still Kṛṣṇa is there. How you can discard Kṛṣṇa?

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, Battle of Kurukṣetra was fought . . .

Prabhupāda: Politics. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye (BG 1.21): "Between the two soldiers, keep my chariot, my dear Acyuta." He is addressing Acyuta. Acyuta, Kṛṣṇa, agreed to become his chariot driver. Therefore he is purposefully using this word acyuta. "Because I know You are the Supreme Lord, and I am ordering You, but because You promised that You will carry my order, Acyuta, You never fail in Your work." So God's another name is Acyuta. God never falls down. This Māyāvādī theory that, "I am God, now I am fallen down," that is wrong theory. How God can fall down? If God falls down He is not God. Dog fall down, not the God.

Mr. Malhotra: How can He be supreme if He can fall down?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Na māṁ karmāṇi limpanti na me karma-phale spṛhā (BG 4.14): "I have nothing to do, and neither if anyway I act, the resultant action does not affect Me." But we are all karma-phala vatya. So how God and myself can be equal? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. There is daiva, there is superior arrangement. According to my karma I get a different type of body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1).

Mr. Malhotra: But when I surrender my karmas to Almighty . . .

Prabhupāda: Then ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣ . . . (BG 18.66), then Kṛṣṇa takes care of you.

Mr. Malhotra: Then those karmas don't affect . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (BS 5.54). Those who are bhaktas, their karmas are finished. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Devotee is not under karma-phala. Hmm?

Mr. Malhotra: Devotee is not under karma-phala.

Prabhupāda:

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

He is Brahman, immediately. Liberated soul. Without being liberated, nobody can be engaged in devotional service. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: Then if one understands ahaṁ brahmāsmi . . .

Prabhupāda: No, simply does not understand ahaṁ brahmāsmi, but he engages himself in devotional service. That is not the end. Simply by understanding that "I am this," that is not sufficient. "I am this, and this is my duty."

Mr. Malhotra: "I am this, and this is my duty." Then that is what is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is liberation.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

(BG 18.54)

That is perfection of brahma-jñāna.

Mr. Malhotra: But in the final analysis, at . . .

Prabhupāda: Final analysis is devotional service.

Mr. Malhotra: The paraṁ pada. They even advocate, means Lord Kṛṣṇa advocates, that all icchā, every type of icchā, icchā of even mukti . . .

Prabhupāda: That is negation. Just like you become freed from fever. So the symptoms of fever finished. But your healthy life begins. And after submission of the fever, still you lie down, that is not cured. Cure will be recognized when you work in your healthy state. That is bhakti. After becoming brahma-bhūya, the activities should be devotional service. Then it is healthy life, liberated life.

Mr. Malhotra: Without any ākāṅkṣā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ākāṅkṣā is also there. That ākāṅkṣā is different. That ākāṅkṣā, how to please Kṛṣṇa, that ākāṅkṣā. In the material stage, the ākāṅkṣā is how to please my senses. In the liberated stage, how to please Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Malhotra: By pleasing Lord, one does not please one's own ego also to some extent?

Prabhupāda: It is just like if you put water on the root of the tree, so all the parts of the tree may become satisfied, automatically. Or if you put food in the stomach, all the parts of your body becomes satisfied—that is automatic. You don't require to make a separate endeavor. That is not required.

Mr. Malhotra: Is there any difference between the ego of a person who is collecting money, or material things, all his life, or a person who is giving all the material things for the service of the humanity at large? Is there any difference between the two?

Prabhupāda: To give your fruits of . . . result of your fruitive activities, either you give to yourself or to your brothers and sisters, it is the same thing. Expanded. Just like a child eats, but when he is little grown up, he gives to his brother also. But the principle is the same. But when you give everything to God, that is liberated stage. Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27).

Mr. Malhotra: Meaning?

Prabhupāda: Meaning, "Whatever you do, you give me Me; whatever you eat, you give to Me." Yad aśnāsi dadāsi yat: "You want to give in charity, you give to Me." (break) We have to cross this hill?

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, we have to cross the hill. And then we again go on plain, then to cross another hill. But they are small, only three, four miles. We have already crossed one near Poona. That was also a small hill. This is called Khandala ghat. That was called (marathi) Kaprij. Some Kaprij Rishi, I think. Ah, there's the name, Kaprij. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana. And Bombay.

Mr. Malhotra: Now in March it will be completed, this Kṛṣṇa center?

Girirāja: It will be almost completed, but we will open. Everything will begin, our activities.

Prabhupāda: Tumhen dekha gaya hai? (You have seen?)

Mr. Malhotra: Ah.

Prabhupāda: They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: The whole planning. My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Kṛṣṇa Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not, 24th January?

Prabhupāda: May not be. Because Kumbha Mela is there. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: . . . that auditorium.

Prabhupāda: Yes, auditorium.

Mr. Malhotra: This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabaleshwar. This is side.

Prabhupāda: Bangalore how many miles?

Mr. Malhotra: Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also.

Prabhupāda: Goa.

Mr. Malhotra: Goa, yes. To go to Madras, you go also on this road.

(break) . . . dolak. Some people will give . . . I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music.

Prabhupāda: This is called musical science, Jala-taraṅga. Jala. Taraṅga means vibration, different vibration. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tune by filling it with water: dn-dn-dn-dn, dn-dn. (break)

Mr. Malhotra: This place is full of tourists from Bombay, from all of Gujarat. (break) Panchgani is one place, and twelve miles' difference, Mahabaleshwar. Also it is twin city like Secunderabad, Hyderabad. (break) In the morning when you go for walk you will find local ladies getting load of food from collected from the forests and taking. Very old, old type of life. (break) . . . this place. I visited Switzerland, and I visited almost every hill station of the country, and almost practically entire world. But I find this place of a different solace. (break) . . . and second, it is very neat and clean.

Prabhupāda: Maharashtrians are very neat and clean. Upper class, they are very. (break) . . . karmī.

Mr. Malhotra: Good man.

Prabhupāda: Good man from worldly point of view, but from spiritual point of view, in the lowest stage. Karmī is the lowest stage.

Mr. Malhotra: Lowest stage.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then jñānī, then yogī, then bhakta.

Mr. Malhotra: More a politician.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmī means this how to enjoy this world. Whole life they have struggled how to enjoy this: "How to enjoy myself. How to allow my men to enjoy." This is karmī platform. Everyone is doing that. Everyone is working hard for himself, for his family, and expand the family, for society, and expand the society, for the nation. Here is karmī plan. Gandhi, Birla, they are all . . . there is no question of spiritual life.

Mr. Malhotra: Now this is the Kṛṣṇā River. You just see how small it is, and how big it becomes later on. In the rainy season this road is closed because this all water comes up, you know. Now it is just a small rivulet. This is Kṛṣṇā River. And it comes just opposite our place, from where it starts, from the mountain. Here is the place called Haya. This was also one of the biggest Sanskrit University in the older time, like that of Taksashila. And Sarnath, near Sarnath, what is that place? Not Sarnath—there in Bihar, that place, that was also very big university, no?

Prabhupāda: Oh, Taxsila.

Mr. Malhotra: No Taxsila was in Punjab, that side. In Bengal, Bihar, that . . .

Prabhupāda: Darbhanga.

Mr. Malhotra: I visited that. So this was the seat of very old temples, oldest temples in this place, this Haya. And they say this is one of the oldest of the oldest towns or cities of the country. Small place, Taseer with a population of about 10–15,000 people. All the temples are in the Kṛṣṇā River, in the Kṛṣṇā River. (break) Whatever I am today, that is all due to my past karmas, good or bad, I mean.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Malhotra: And whatever I am doing today, that I will have to reap the harvest in the future.

Prabhupāda: You are creating the next position.

Mr. Malhotra: So that means that I am bound by my past karmas. My destiny, my fate, is tied with the past karmas. So I have no other goal but to have the phala of past karmas. Or can I change my fate?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are enjoying the past karmas, and you are creating new karmas.

Mr. Malhotra: But can I . . . then this means a circle that I'll always be.

Prabhupāda: Karma-cakra.

Mr. Malhotra: Karma-cakra. So how can one be out of this cakra?

Prabhupāda: That cakra, you surrender to Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Malhotra: Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And put all the karmas . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, He says: "You surrender. I square up all your karma."

Mr. Malhotra: Then only square up. Otherwise, no. Otherwise continue in this vicious circle.

Prabhupāda: Dharmasyāsya parantapa mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Karma-cakra, this mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, one after another, one body after another, one body after another, this will continue. If you don't come to Kṛṣṇa, then nivartante, mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, you have to return again to that karma-cakra.

Mr. Malhotra: The only way out is to surrender your . . .?

Prabhupāda: To accept Kṛṣṇa that, "You are my Lord. I forgot it. I surrender. Kindly accept me."

Indian man: How to surrender?

Prabhupāda: Surrender, there are six items.

Mr. Malhotra: Six items.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That, "If I surrender to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection. I am one of His servants. And whatever He does, accept that."

Mr. Malhotra: Good or bad.

Prabhupāda: There is no bad. Everything is good. And first accept what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa, to reject what is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Malhotra: And what is favorable to Kṛṣṇa? How one knows?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Do that. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Always think of Kṛṣṇa, become His devotee, offer obeisances. It doesn't require any extra endeavor, these things. Whatever you have got, you can do it. You can think of Kṛṣṇa without any impediment. Who can check it if you think of Kṛṣṇa? This is favorable. And what is unfavorable, that should be rejected. What is favorable, that should be accepted. And to believe firmly that "Now I am surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." (break) But dog has got a quality that he surrenders to his master. The master is a Vaiṣṇava, then dog gets the benefit. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya, mat para, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mat para, mat para (BG 9.32). When the process is there, everyone can surrender, that "I shall act only what is favorable to get Kṛṣṇa's mercy." Yes. "And I shall not act any way which is not favorable to Kṛṣṇa." These first two determinations. And then, "Because I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, He will give me protection." You believe in it. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). Believe in it. "Now I have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. My all resultant actions of sinful life is finished. I will not come again." In this way.

Indian man: If one surrenders, how to know that Kṛṣṇa has accepted?

Prabhupāda: That you will understand. Just like if you eat, you will understand that you are eating. Nobody has to convince you. You will be convinced.

Mr. Malhotra: The test of the pudding is by eating. Not by simply telling.

Prabhupāda: When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. (break) . . . mouse of the mountain. (laughter)

Mr. Malhotra: Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. (break)

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durgā.

Mr. Malhotra: And if you want spiritual . . .?

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu.

Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa. This Bālajī is Viṣṇu?

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu.

Mr. Malhotra: How then Viṣṇu, the incarnations, Kṛṣṇa, then Viṣṇu's incarnation . . .

Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu is everything. If you want material power, you can get it from Viṣṇu.

Mr. Malhotra: Material power from Viṣṇu?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Viṣṇu can give everything.

akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā

mokṣa-kāma udāra-dhīḥ

tīvreṇa bhakti-yogena

yajeta paramam puruṣa

(SB 2.3.10)

Paramaṁ puruṣa is Viṣṇu.

Mr. Malhotra: Viṣṇu can give the power of bhakti also.

Prabhupāda: Everything. Yes. Bhakti is . . . generally He gives bhakti. If you want something other than bhakti, you can get it.

Mr. Malhotra: This is the center of M.R.A., Moral Rearmament. I phoned them for yesterday, so that Rajmohan Gandhi is away, not here. But the other people are here. We will visit this some time during the day. These days one conference is going on. There are 130 countries. Some conference.

Devotee: There?

Indian man: What is the subject?

Mr. Malhotra: I don't know, remember.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you may not know it, and this will do never any benefit.

Mr. Malhotra: Now this is Panchgani, starts from here.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Mr. Malhotra: . . . starts from here. (end)