760619 - Conversation Home Engagement - Toronto

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760619LE-TORONTO - June 19, 1976 - 33:58 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Who will talk? You can speak.

Satsvarūpa: So last year, at this time, a year ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda came to Śubhavilāsa's house as part of his visit to Toronto. At that time Toronto ISKCON had only a small temple which they'd had for years, on Gerrard Street. All the devotees were very enthusiastic, but their place was not such a nice facility. So Śrīla Prabhupāda visited and came here, and many members of the Indian community and other members of the Toronto community came, and Śrīla Prabhupāda spoke here. At the end of his talk, one man asked Śrīla Prabhupāda that, "We are very glad that you have come. Now you please come back again. When will you return again?" Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "I will return when you get a big temple for this center." He had seen different temples, including this big church, so Śrīla Prabhupāda's invitation to them was that they should make collection to purchase this temple. So Śubhavilāsa and Viśvakarma and all the devotees actually worked so hard, and by Kṛṣṇa's grace they were able to purchase this temple.

So we can see that it is the desire of the pure devotee. Whatever Kṛṣṇa wants, He does not have to work at all. His desires are immediately fulfilled simply by His desiring. Everything is fulfilled. By Kṛṣṇa's finger signal the whole material creation is created, brought about, and it's maintained by His separate energies. And everything is annihilated by Kṛṣṇa's will and created again. So . . . and Kṛṣṇa, He is fulfilling all His infinite desires in the spiritual world also. So as Kṛṣṇa's desires are immediately fulfilled, the pure devotee's desires are also fulfilled. That's because he is one with the Lord. His interests are the same are Kṛṣṇa's. This is the oneness, that the pure devotee has no desire but to see that Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And so by Śrīla Prabhupāda's desiring this to come about, praying to Kṛṣṇa, therefore the devotees also praying and endeavoring have brought about that now Toronto is situated in such a nice temple, and just since opening that temple now so many new devotees have come and joined. So it's now very firmly situated in this big North American city to go on spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So we should be always so grateful to Śrīla Prabhupāda, not only for coming and visiting us in our temples, whereby we can actually see in this instance how by his visit this came about, that a year later now such a big, big temple is there . . . that anyone can plainly see. It is phenomenal. It can be seen. But also we should be grateful that by his instructions . . . because the physical presence is not always appreciable. Sometimes he is here and some, then he is not here. But always Śrīla Prabhupāda is with us by our following his instructions. We simply have to be obedient to these instructions. As Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying last night in the initiation lecture, that human life is meant to follow these instructions of tapo-divyam (SB 5.5.1), going to the difficulty of giving up sinful habits, meat-eating, illicit sex, intoxication, gambling, and engaging in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we do these things very sincerely, then we shall always have Śrīla Prabhupāda guiding us. Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and when Kṛṣṇa in the heart sees that we are trying to follow the instructions of the pure devotee, who's also a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa within is the Supersoul. Kṛṣṇa manifested before us is the spiritual master. So the Lord within the heart will see that we are trying to follow the instructions of the spiritual master and will enlighten us how to always stay strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, how to always feel the direct association and direction of the spiritual master by obedience to his instructions. So all these things we'll realize more and more if we simply faithfully stick to Prabhupāda's instruction, and his main instruction is that we simply all be happy and engage in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: You can . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can appreciate the temples that Śrīla Prabhupāda has established all over the world when we compare the material life, as going on today, with the life we live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Presently in this world, the Kali-yuga is so much manifest. We can see that year by year things are becoming more and more degraded, not in arithmetic proportion but even in geometric proportions. So rapidly everywhere society is decaying and people are becoming more and more just like animals, exactly like animals—simply interested in eating, simply interested in sex life, simply interested in trying somehow or another to find some object to gratify the senses. But in the temple we can practically experience a different quality of life altogether. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is establishing the internal potency of the Lord within this material world in the form of his temples. Kṛṣṇa says, mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13), that persons who are always glorifying Kṛṣṇa, they live in the internal potency of the Lord. And practically in our temples, glorification of Kṛṣṇa, by the order of our spiritual master, is going on. We can understand practically that to live in the temple is to live in the internal potency of the Lord—is very rare opportunity. We can see practically that there are so many billions and billions of people in the world suffering without any opportunity even of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even at this advanced age, in spite of so many difficulties . . . just like I'm somehow or another Śrīla Prabhupāda's secretary, and I'm always trying to arrange for his physical comforts. But he's always saying: "To preach means to accept discomfort," that for an older person to travel on airplanes and to always move about and to go here and there for the service of the Lord is naturally more difficult than for a very young person. But Prabhupāda is accepting this uncomfortable situation simply to establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the world, at least to give people the opportunity that, "Choose, if you like, between the internal potency and the external potency." The external potency means that you're forced. We have no choice. We're forced to undergo repetition of birth and death. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Nobody likes to grow old, but this youthful age, soon it will become old age. And nobody likes to die. So present-day civilization is blindly going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās: (SB 7.5.31) the blind leading the blind. People are thinking that, "My parents did it. Their parents did it. Generations have done it. So also we engage blindly in materialistic way of life and everything will be okay." But the result is that everyone is simply suffering, and after this lifetime they also have to suffer the consequences of this present life's activities blindly, not knowing that they're responsible for their activities.

So we have a choice now whether to follow a representative of God, Kṛṣṇa, who can bring us to the internal potency of the Lord. This internal potency is not dry. It is the origin of bliss, sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha (BS 5.1). It is not impersonal, void, lifeless, without any happiness. It is what everyone is actually looking for, simply pervertedly within this material world. So this opportunity is here. Before Prabhupāda came to the Western countries, actually there was no hope. There was no hope at all. There was no such knowledge, there was no such opportunity to choose between material life and something else. There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name. In so many ways we are being benedicted, and if we can simply remain fixed in the pure knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and we don't become illusioned by this material energy, thinking just like the animal that there's some happiness there . . . the animal is running after the mirage, but there's no water there. Similarly the foolish human beings, as Prabhupāda aptly mentioned the other day to these professors who came to visit him, the dog is running with four legs, here and there, very, very busy, and the human being also he's running, but he's running in an automobile with four wheels. But he's thinking that his running is superior to the dog's running. Why? He's very busy running here and there for the same activities, and the dog is running with four legs. The activities are the same. So without culture the running in the car and the running of the dog is the same. So this Kṛṣṇa culture is now being spread all throughout the world. It's giving people to see how actually human life should be lived. And the temple is a place where practically we can set an ideal example of human life for the whole of human society. Therefore we're greatly indebted to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda!

Prabhupāda: Jagadīśa, you can.

Jagadīśa:

oṁ ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

In the world, in the material world, there are two kinds of persons: devotees and the demons. Devotees are those who have understood the existence of the Supreme Lord and are engaged somehow or other in His service, and the demons are those who reject the service of the Lord. In the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā this is described: catur-vidhā bhajante mām (BG 7.16). There are four types of people who surrender to Kṛṣṇa. So those who are in distress, those who are in search of money, those who are inquisitive and those who are searching after the Absolute Truth, so these four kinds of persons, when given the opportunity, will take shelter of the Supreme Lord. And the other four kinds of persons are called, are described in Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: Duṣkṛtina.

Jagadīśa: Duṣkṛtina.

Hari-śauri: Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā.

Jagadīśa: What's the first?

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

Those who are mūḍha, foolish, grossly foolish; those who are narādhama, those who are lowest of mankind; those who are māyayāpahṛta-jñānā, those whose knowledge is stolen by illusion; those, āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, those who are of the atheistic nature of demons. These four kinds of persons do not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. In the purport in Bhagavad-gītā Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that practically 99.9% of the human population fits in these categories, will not surrender unto the Supreme Lord. Therefore the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is formed to give opportunity to those who choose to surrender to the Lord to associate with one another, to cooperate together in serving the mission of the Lord.

The material world is created for a specific purpose by the Supreme Lord. That purpose is to give a chance to the forgetful living beings who have tried to exercise independence from Kṛṣṇa to once again understand their position. They're put into various conditions of material existence in order to learn that they are not the enjoyers and controllers. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer. Param īśvara. He's the supreme controller. Everything is meant for His satisfaction. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa is described, describes Himself, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8) that, "All material and spiritual worlds are created by Me. Everything is emanating from Me." So created by Kṛṣṇa for His pleasure, just as a father or a man takes a wife and has children and gets a house, and he expands himself in this way for enjoyment. He tries to enjoy by expanding his influence in the material world. So this is because he's part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and he has the same tendency as Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme enjoyer, and He has expanded Himself in multi-energies to enjoy Himself, and the conditioned souls are also part of that multifarious energy. They are called marginal, jīva-śakti, and that means they can go one way or the other. They can choose to use their independence to please Kṛṣṇa or they can choose to use their independence otherwise. That otherwise means that they must come to the material world. That is Kṛṣṇa's purpose in creating the material world—to give a chance to these foolish living entities to revive their eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead.

So within human society . . . this is also stated in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3): "Out of many thousands of men, one may endeavor for perfection. And of many such perfected men, hardly one knows Me in truth." So the material world is a very dangerous place. The living beings within the material world are kṣatram. They do not know the purpose of life. They are simply interested in their own advancement, somehow or other. So they engage in all kinds of destructive activities which cause harm to themselves and to others. So this is the condition of the material world. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Prabhupāda has stated that this is no place for a gentleman. In the material world everyone is, just as we are observing . . . I was visiting the Kṛṣṇa consciousness farm in British Columbia, and on the road we were passing large herds of beef cows. We were discussing that the farmer thinks of these cows not as spirit souls but as commodities. He simply puts them in a field to eat, and when they get big enough, kills them and takes the money for his enjoyment. He doesn't see that these are living entities, spirit souls. So this activity of the human beings, killing the cows, helpless cows by the thousands daily, is causing the . . . or is an indication that there is no merciful quality in the human beings. They are simply interested in their own aggrandizement and welfare. If they don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that is the only alternative.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes and canvasses, and He tells the conditioned souls, "You must surrender to Me." And if one chooses not to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, that means that he himself wants to become Kṛṣṇa—without any qualification. The spirit soul is infinitesimal spark of Kṛṣṇa. And that spark, when not in touch with Kṛṣṇa, the fire, becomes like the sparks of the fire not in contact with the fire: extinguished. So there is no good qualities for the living beings who are outside Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So the four types of men who surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they're doing so with some selfish interest. All of the conditioned souls are acting for their own selfish interest. They do not know otherwise. But somehow or other, if one of the conditioned souls will surrender to Kṛṣṇa by the grace of a pure devotee, then that immediately puts him into a situation of becoming purified. The greatest purification is to come in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord. There are many, many ritualistic activities prescribed in the Vedic literatures for gradual purification. But, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī points out in his Upadeśāmṛta, what is the good of undergoing so much atonement and pious activity if the heart remains contaminated and the living entity remains sinful, ready to . . . just acting for his own benefit? Therefore the greatest opportunity for the conditioned soul is when he gets the chance to associate with a pure devotee of the Lord.

The pure devotee of the Lord instructs the conditioned soul to engage in activities just to please Kṛṣṇa, as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī explains. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11), without any separate interest, no mixture of jñāna or karma, no desire for sense gratification or acquisition of knowledge, just to engage in activities for the pleasure of the Supreme. This is the perfection. Otherwise, without coming in touch with a pure devotee of the Lord no one could understand this. And especially in this age of Kali, when the human society is so degraded that if it weren't for some laws prohibiting, and even despite those laws, the human beings are engaged in cut-throat activities, killing one another. Just like this abortion. Now they've passed some law which allows killing. So now it is going on, wholesale slaughtering, by mothers of their own children. This is the condition of human society.

So the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is specifically formed by Śrīla Prabhupāda to help those of us who are lost and entangled in this material condition to associate with one another under his guidance and achieve, by this process recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, chanting the holy name, we can achieve rapid purification, and in this one lifetime, Śrīla Prabhupāda has promised that we can go back to home, back to Godhead. So we should try to cooperate together. There is no other purpose. Once one comes in touch with the pure devotee and understands his message, and there's no other purpose for living in this material world than to serve the mission of the Lord. And that mission of the Lord, as already explained, is to reclaim the conditioned souls who have fallen into the material world and are lost, helplessly entrapped. So we should try and cooperate together. Learn Śrīla Prabhupāda's instructions very perfectly and try to carry them out, following the four regulative principles, chanting sixteen rounds and working together to spread the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement all over the world so that its influence can affect all the living beings who are living on the face of the earth. Actually in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī has stated that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will spread all over the universe. So Śrīla Prabhupāda is undoubtedly empowered by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's doing such wonderful service, spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over this globe, and we should pray that we can help in some small way. Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: So I have heard that there are about fifty thousand Indians in Toronto. So why they are not coming? They want to become bara-sāhīb only?

Śubhavilāsa: Yes, they are here to make the money, that's all they are doing.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) They have no other purpose? So this is not good. What is their objection? They don't want their own culture? This is Indian culture. They should be proud that Indian culture is being accepted by the foreigners. And they are living, they are becoming bara-sāhīb? What is this? Now it is your duty to deliver these bara-sāhībs, that they are not taking interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Hmm? No, so is there any other outsider Indian present?

Indian devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Come here. But you have already joined. (laughter)

Devotee: He's . . . (indistinct) . . . from Montreal.

Prabhupāda: Your trick. Your trademark is there. (tilak)

Indian devotee: Nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhūtale . . .

Devotee: There's Gururaj. They are also chanting sixteen rounds a day now, and he's staying at the temple.

Prabhupāda: So he has already joined. I mean those who have not joined. I think this gentleman? I saw him in the morning. So, Kya karan hai je hamara bhartiya log nahi aate hain. (What is the reason that our Indians are not coming?)

Indian man (1): This is a very good question. Apne jo pucha . . . kyun nahi aate hain? (The question you have asked . . . why don't they come?)

Prabhupāda: Ye to thik nahi hai kyunki . . . (This is not proper because . . .) this is the sign of degradation. So Indians have become so degraded, shall I take it like that?

Indian man (1): No, it's not that, but there must be some other reason why they're not coming.

Prabhupāda: What is other reason? There cannot be any reason. Here is temple of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, and the Bhagavad-gītā is being preached, Bhāgavata is being preached. Why they do not take interest?

Indian man (1): I've been coming to temple for six years now here in Toronto.

Prabhupāda: Well, you are coming, all right. But I have heard that there are fifty thousand Indians. So why they do not come?

Indian man (1): Maybe it's catching up now, more.

Prabhupāda: Is there any special reason, they can discuss with me, if one is interested.

Indian man (1): Mujhe lagta hai, jaise ho sakta hai ki, jaisa hamara tarika hai ki sadkon pe jake . . ., log isse thoda ghabra jate hain. Kyunki wo sochte hain hamare upare discrimination aayegi. (I feel, it might be possible that, the system which we have of going out on the streets, people might get little nervous. They think that they might receive discrimination upon themselves.) The society here to accept this kind of thing, and people maybe don't want to align themselves with this kind of thing so that they are not ridiculed by others. This could be one of the reasons. Because, you know . . .

Prabhupāda: Ridicule?

Indian man (1): The method may be, they may think, maybe that it is too strong for people here to accept.

Prabhupāda: No, strong, disease bhi to strong hai na. Jaisa disease vaisa davai hona chahiye. Ye jo bhagavan ko bhool jana aur sharab pina maas khana ye disease to he bhari gambhir hai.. (The disease is also strong is it not? According to the disease, the right medicine must be used. This forgetfulness of God and taking intoxicants, eating meat - this disease is very serious.) Jaya, Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (2): Many of them think we're fanatical, from Western countries.

Prabhupāda: Many? jaya Kya karan hai bhartiya log . . . (What is the reason the Indians . . .)

Indian man (2): I don't speak Hindi. I'm from South America, British Guinea.

Prabhupāda: So what is the reason the Indians are not coming in large numbers? They are coming, some.

Indian man (1): I think they are too much in māyā. (laughter)

Indian man (2): They want to be Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): Everybody wants to be Kṛṣṇa themselves.

Prabhupāda: Rascal. (laughter) Everyone wants to become a rascal. Don't be that.

Indian man (1): Ve to inse bhi aage badh gaye hain, Americans se, unse bhi jyada khana pina shuru kar diye hain. (They have even gone ahead than the Americans, they have started to eat meat and consume alcohol more than these Americans.)

Prabhupāda: Ye sab mayavadi ye log ko sikha diya sab jahanoom me jane ke liye. (All these Mayavadis have taught them to go to hell.) This is not good. Everyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa.

Śubhavilāsa: Or they're seeking for Kṛṣṇa in the material world.

Prabhupāda: Wo pahad utha sakta hai kya Krishna jaisa? (Can he lift the mountain like Kṛṣṇa?) As Kṛṣṇa lifted the Govardhana Hill at seven years old, so can he do that? Then how he'll become Kṛṣṇa? Simply by imagination. Kuch kar ke to dikhao. Ye sab badmaashi kharab kar diya hai Hindu society ko. (Show me by doing something. All this bullying has ruined the Hindu society.

Indian man (1): There are too many sections of religion, Hindu religion.

Prabhupāda: There cannot be any section. There are two section, demons and the demigods. That is the statement in the śāstra. Dvau bhūta-sargau loke 'smin daiva āsura eva ca (BG 16.6). There are two kinds of men: daiva and āsura. Viṣṇu-bhaktaḥ bhaved daiva āsuras tad-viparyayaḥ. So if they want to remain demons, that is their choice. But that will not help them.

Indian man (1): Most fortunate men try to follow Kṛṣṇa. The unfortunate try to follow . . .

Prabhupāda: So anyway, now it is Śubhavilāsa Prabhu's duty to bring these imitation Kṛṣṇas.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): Many, many good bhaktas are being spoiled by impersonalists nowadays . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are personalist or impersonalist? He is personalist. (laughter) Hari-nāma karo mala hai to japo. (Do harinam, if you have beads then chant.) So, another kīrtana? (end)