770105 - Conversation B - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770105R2-BOMBAY - January 05, 1977 - 52:00 Minutes

(Roof Conversation)

Prabhupāda: Unless you are convinced, you cannot convince others. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And to save them is paropakāra, real welfare. (break)

Trivikrama: . . . don't want to be saved.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But our duty is to try. (break)

Devotee (1): . . . according to an official in the Central Railway.

Prabhupāda: So how many tickets we have got?

Devotee (1): We've got twenty tickets for the devotees in second class, plus two for yourself and Hari-śauri in first class.

Mr. Gupta: Well it's not the consideration of tickets, it's just on the midnight of 31st and 1st. When I was very disturbed, I just got into the train for a drive, being a railway man, and there was just some intuition that I came here and I had your darśana.

Prabhupāda: When you came?

Mr. Gupta: On the 31st and 1st. On the 1st morning. And from that I . . . as happens to be, I've been coming every day.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Mr. Gupta: On the 2nd you were kind enough to autograph the Gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. I remember.

Mr. Gupta: . . . which I purchased from here.

Prabhupāda: You are reading Bhagavad-gītā?

Mr. Gupta: I have not started reading that one. I'm reading the Śrī Īśo . . .

Prabhupāda: Īśopaniṣad.

Mr. Gupta: Īśopaniṣad. I read the other Gītā. But after I finish this, then I'll start your edition. I have read Gītā, the ordinary one from Gita Press, Gorakphur. I've read Dr. Radhakrishna in portion; Dr. Rajagopalachari. I hope to gain something more.

Prabhupāda: The difference between other Gītā and our Gītā . . . we therefore said, "As It Is." No interpretation. That is the disaster. Authority, Kṛṣṇa, and to interpret on His word, this is very disastrous.

Mr. Gupta: Lord Kṛṣṇa has been good to me right from my childhood. I was brought up in a good, religious family. I have always been able to have my way. I think that's what's wrong. I get very strong desires, likes, dislikes. I have been successful, very, very successful, in material sense, in work.

Prabhupāda: Now . . .

Mr. Gupta: I want to . . . doesn't leave me with peace.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is your full name?

Mr. Gupta: Rabindranath Gupta. I'm not a Bengali. I belong to Delhi. I've lived eight years in Bengal, Chittaranjan, Durgapur, Mongher.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So you can speak in Bengali.

Mr. Gupta: I can understand. I mean . . . bhalo bangla bolte pari na kintu bujhte pari. (I don't speak proper Bengali, I can understand.)

Prabhupāda: O taholei hobe. (Okay that will do.) Bengali is not at all very difficult.

Mr. Gupta: No, not at all. Once upon a time I could read and write. But it's just out of touch.

Prabhupāda: The Calcutta Marwaris, they speak very fluently. Yes.

Mr. Gupta: Oh, beautifully. Fluently. Being in railways I've had about eight cross-country transfers—Rajkot, Ajmer, Bombay, Ahmedabad, Lohar. So I know as much of Gujarati and Marathi too.

Prabhupāda: Rajasthani?

Mr. Gupta: Rajasthani. Hindi is the mother tongue for Rajasthani.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hindi is understood everywhere. (break) . . . Bhagavad-gītā, what you have learned?

Mr. Gupta: The only thing that I have been able to learn is we . . . I was told so, quite, by keeping our mind and heart strict, we should do our work as belonging to best āśrama as best as possible. But the human beings tend to twist "as best as possible" in their own way. And that . . . when the realization comes . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Do you realize that the modern civilization is misguided? (break) . . . is the quintessence of Bhagavad-gītā. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). Glāniḥ. The people are misguided. (greets Dr. Patel) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. He's Dr. Patel. He's Mr. Gupta, a railway officer. He arranged for our tickets.

Dr. Patel: You are going by plane or by car?

Prabhupāda: Train.

Dr. Patel: You are going also by train? It will be too much strain.

Prabhupāda: No, first class is all right.

Dr. Patel: Even first class. Because it takes more than thirty-six hours to reach . . .

Prabhupāda: No, twenty-four hours.

Dr. Patel: . . . by car, by Calcutta from here, no? Or Kashi Express.

Mr. Gupta: Yes, sir. Twenty-four hours.

Dr. Patel: Kashi Express?

Mr. Gupta: Kashi Express. Kashi Express reaches in the morning just at one . . .

Dr. Patel: I had gone by Kashi Express. It reached . . . from here it starts in the evening, and there it reaches Allahabad in the evening.

Mr. Gupta: That is Allahabad Mail. That's Calcutta Mail. Kashi Express leaves at 6:45 in the morning with other, and reaches at the same time next morning.

Prabhupāda: So we have to get the train from Dadar.

Mr. Gupta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Dadar is nearer.

Mr. Gupta: Dadar is nearer.

Dr. Patel: It must be stopping at Thane also. No?

Mr. Gupta: We had the option of going either on 10th night or 11th morning. But we preferred 11th morning for the same reason.

Prabhupāda: 10th night means?

Mr. Gupta: By Calcutta Mail, or there's a special leaving for Allahabad. There's a special train. We are running Kumbha-melā specials.

Prabhupāda: This one.

Mr. Gupta: This one is a regular train. This is Varanasi Express.

Dr. Patel: A special must not have first class. Has it?

Mr. Gupta: Special has first class.

Dr. Patel: That special will be better then.

Mr. Gupta: No, it won't be, because it leaves on 10th night, and it will only go to Naini. It won't go to Allahabad.

Dr. Patel: Isn't it faster than the . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to change again. From Naini you have to change.

Mr. Gupta: You see, the Central Railway, we are taking people only to Naini and back. We are moving about a million passengers from this area.

Prabhupāda: From Naini they are going to the Kumbha-melā.

Mr. Gupta: The Naini, yes. It's a triangle. So from Naini they will go to Kumbha-melā, come back to Naini, and come back this side.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That's right.

Dr. Patel: How far Naini is from Allahabad?

Mr. Gupta: Naini, railway station-wise is five miles from Allahabad. But people want to go to Sangam just at the bridge at the bank of the river . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: It is not far away from the Sam . . . it is nearer. Rather, Allahabad main station is far away.

Mr. Gupta: You see, the way railways have organized it, Eastern Railway will . . .

Prabhupāda: So Naini, you are crossing the river or this side of the river?

Mr. Gupta: By special, we will not cross the river. By through-going trains, we will cross the river.

Dr. Patel: If you cross the river, then you go to Allahabad main station.

Mr. Gupta: That's right. So Varanasi Express will go to main station. That special would not have gone to main station. It would have caused you inconvenience.

Prabhupāda: I see. So they will receive from Allahabad station, our men?

Dr. Patel: You have to tell them to go to main.

Hari-śauri: We'll have to telegram to Gurudāsa to tell when we're coming.

Dr. Patel: There will be huge, I mean, traffic blocking and all those things. No? (break)

Prabhupāda: Fifty years before, when I was in Allahabad, 1920s, there was Kumbha-melā. Then forty lakhs people came. Fifty years ago.

Dr. Patel: With poor transport then. That transport was not so efficient as it is today, no? More trains and more . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the Bombay Mail was there, and I think this Kashi Express was not there.

Dr. Patel: Kashi Express is a new.

Prabhupāda: Not very new. That is also not very . . .

Mr. Gupta: About fifteen years old.

Prabhupāda: Fifteen years.

Dr. Patel: Kashi Express goes to Allahabad and comes back to Benares. I have gone by that train.

Mr. Gupta: Actually Kashi Express was introduced before last Kumbha-melā.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, Kashi Express goes to Allahabad; then, from Allahabad, there is a straight line from Benares . . . to Benares. Then it goes to Mughal Sarai. Kashi Express, from . . . it goes up to Kashi or not?

Mr. Gupta: Up to Kashi.

Dr. Patel: And how long are you going to stay there, sir?

Prabhupāda: As long as Muratdev . . .

Dr. Patel: Mela will last up to middle of February. No?

Prabhupāda: Ek mahina . . . (For one month it stays.) No, I'm not going to stay.

Dr. Patel: Ek mahina! (One month.) It is very cold, huh? There will be extreme cold this season. And to take bath in confluence in this biting cold of this cold water.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes I was taking.

Dr. Patel: You should take warm-water bath.

Prabhupāda: In 1925 I was taking. I was touching the water, and it was cutting.

Dr. Patel: Even my. It was cutting too much.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) And as soon as I take a dip, everything is warm.

Dr. Patel: No, but for now it is not right.

Prabhupāda: It is very nice.

Trivikrama: Everything is numb.

Prabhupāda: And immediately warm, as you take.

Trivikrama: Oh, warm.

Dr. Patel: That is all the place, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So long as you do not take dip, it is so pinching, it is cutting your body. And as soon as you get a dip—one, two, three, bās. Immediately you are warm.

Dr. Patel: No, but now, at this age of yours.

Prabhupāda: No, now . . .

Dr. Patel: You should warm the water and take water from confluence, bring in the tent, warm it up and take a bath. Or you get a pot of water here and daily put two drops in the bucket and take bath then. (laughs) My wife was doing this. She used to put two drops of Gaṅgā water in . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, if I take such dip I may be paralyzed.

Mr. Gupta: Oh, yes. One man had actually died in Kashi Benares by dipping in the Gaṅgā. (indistinct to Dr. Patel)

Dr. Patel: The water in Gaṅgā is very cold even in summer, sir, huh? Summer also it is very . . .

Prabhupāda: Always. Because it is coming directly from Himalaya. Up to Prayāga, pure—no mixture. And then Yamunā . . .

Mr. Gupta: And Gaṅgā mix together.

Prabhupāda: Mix. They say Sarasvatī also.

Dr. Patel: Sarasvatī is the subterranean river. They call Sarasvatī everywhere, you know. "Hindu mythological river."

Trivikrama: Mythological?

Dr. Patel: Yes, it is mythological. It is all subterranean water. Here's Sarasvatī. You got Sarasvatī in Gujarat also.

Prabhupāda: No, there is Sarasvatī

Dr. Patel: You get Sarasvatī in Maharastra also—everywhere. (laughs)

Trivikrama: This is Dr. Patel. I heard him speaking two years ago, because a tape came. At the time you were . . . you and Dr. Patel, you were having very heated conversations. But now I see he is subdued. (chuckles)

Dr. Patel: (laughs) In these two years I have made an extensive study of the Vaiṣṇava cult, all the three branches of main Vaiṣṇavas, and I think, I think, sir, that . . . I have studied Śaṅkara also extensively, and I think Śaṅkara is misunderstood very much. That is our opinion.

Prabhupāda: No, no, not misunderstood. He made himself misunderstood.

Dr. Patel: But they all misunderstand the real purport of his . . .

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādam asac . . . he has to preach this Māyāvāda. He has to present himself in that way. Otherwise he is Vaiṣṇava. Māyāvādam asac-chāstraṁ pracchannaṁ bauddham ucyate (Padma Purāṇa).

Dr. Patel: Pracchannam Buddha, Śaṅkarācārya.

Prabhupāda: Mayaiva vihitaṁ devi kalau brāhmaṇa-mūrtinā (Padma Purāṇa). (break)

Dr. Patel: The most important group in all Vaiṣṇavas. Vaiṣṇava-bhakti-sat-saṅga anyathā yānti vido apy adhaḥ. Even well-versed man will come down if he does not understand. All the branches of, I mean, Vaiṣṇavism, they give the same comment.

Prabhupāda: Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Without sat-saṅga, nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55).

Dr. Patel: Swami Nārāyaṇa has mentioned this such:

kṛṣṇaḥ tad-avatāraḥ ca

jñeyaḥ tat-tattvam api ca

na tu jīvan rūpa-devādya

bhakta brahma-vido 'pi ca

Even the highest bhaktas, the brahmin-bhaktas, they should not be worshiped more than Kṛṣṇa, and He is also highest. But the followers, you know what they are doing.

Prabhupāda: They are not followers. If they do not follow their guru, then what kind of follower?

Dr. Patel: Same with the Vallabhācārya's followers.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Unless guru trains the disciple rightly, there will be difficulty.

Dr. Patel: Their chief belief is that God comes in the form of the guru, and so guru should be worshiped as God even after his death. God comes in the form of guru . . .

Prabhupāda: And kick out God. And kick out God.

Dr. Patel: That is the thing. "God comes in the form of guru" is all right. So yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). Otherwise you cannot get . . .

Prabhupāda: Guru is manifestation of God, but that does not mean we kick out God.

Dr. Patel: They are kicking over. And this fellow, this Ganeshpuri, they are worshiping that statue of their own, this guru only.

Mr. Gupta: That's a common statement also. Guru govindam kare kake lage pau balihare guru apnau govindiya pathai.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Mr. Gupta: I think that's the gist of the guru and Bhagavān.

Dr. Patel: Those people who consider guru in the place of God during his, I mean, imparting of knowledge to you . . . otherwise you won't get the knowledge.

yasya deve parā bhaktir

yathā deve tathā gurau

tasyaite kathitā guna

prakāśante mahātmanaḥ

(ŚU 6.23)

Otherwise all those things will not . . . will not . . . will never remain. You see? Am I right or wrong, sir?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without guru we cannot approach God. That does not mean you shall reject . . .

Dr. Patel: Guru's guru.

Prabhupāda: Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2).

Trivikrama: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. (break)

Dr. Patel: Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ. Mahātmā is the guru.

Prabhupāda: Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151), Caitanya Mahāprabhu. "By guru's mercy and Kṛṣṇa's mercy, one can enter into bhakti-mārga." Without guru's mercy you cannot, and without Kṛṣṇa's mercy also you cannot. Kṛṣṇa is situated within your heart, and if you are sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give you the right guru. And then guru's . . . by guru's mercy you'll understand Kṛṣṇa. This is the process.

Mr. Gupta: All our . . . (indistinct) . . . will come you. When at times of anger gets temporarily the better of you, what is the guidance which can bring you back to normality? Because in anger you can do a lot of things. Because you lose . . . spontaneously you lose your temper. Though it can be for the good . . .

Prabhupāda: When you can conquer over your anger, then you become gosvāmī. Vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegam. Krodha-vegam. Mānasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt (NOI 1). A guru . . . one cannot become guru who has no control over these things: vāco vegam, the urge of speaking nonsense, vāco vegam; krodha-vegam, the urge of anger; mānasa-vegam, urge of mind; udara-vegam, urge of the belly; upastha-vegam, urge of the genital. In this way, all the six vegas, one who can control, he is fit for becoming guru.

Dr. Patel: Kāma, krodha, and lobha. It can be only one . . . if you have, you understand the greatness of God and your mind perpetually in the sacred feet of God, then you don't have this kāma, krodha and lobha. That is what other ācāryas also say.

Prabhupāda: Vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegam udara-vegaṁ mānasa-vegam, etān vegān. The six vegas, one who can control, he is gosvāmī. Svāmī means master, and go means indriyas.

Dr. Patel: Kāma krodha lobha matsara. Moha. Matsara. Six.

Mr. Gupta: Gurujī, the problem which I am putting as a common man is . . . I am . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not for the common man. Common man has to learn under the discipline of guru. You cannot expect all these things from a common man.

Mr. Gupta: Yes. That is what I want to learn.

Prabhupāda: It is . . . it is . . . when you actually control all of these things, then you are not common man; you are representative of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can preach Kṛṣṇa's result.

Dr. Patel: There is one śloka: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa . . . (BG 18.66). This is pāpa—kāma, krodha and lobha. He will relieve you from that pāpa if you completely surrender. That is, I mean, the . . .

Prabhupāda: Pāpa—everything. In the material world, whatever you do, that is pāpa. In the material world, "This is pāpa, this is puṇya"—this is mental concoction. Everything is pāpa. Dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali samāna. The world of duality, material world, we have manufactured something, "This is good; this is bad," "This is moral, this is immoral." But Caitanya-caritāmṛta author said: "These are all mental concoction. Everything is the same—material." Material means bad. But we have made some convention, "This is good; this is bad."

Mr. Gupta: By God's grace I'm a very successful man. I'm youngest chief mechanical engineer on the Central Railway. I know kāma, krodha, lobha, moha. All are, taken to extreme, it's pāpa. I know it. But when they overcome in the heat of the moment, then you're not able to retract yourself. It's only when . . .

Dr. Patel: Then . . . then . . .

Prabhupāda: No, let him. That you have to practice: how to use kāma, krodha. That is described by Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura: kāma-kṛṣṇa kārmārpaṇe. Kāma means you have a strong desire to do something. That is kāma. So convert it, this kāma desire, for Kṛṣṇa's activities. Kāma-kṛṣṇa kārmārpaṇe. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane: and persons who are envious of the devotees, you become angry upon them. You have got this quality, kāma, krodha, lobha, but you can utilize it. Just like Hanumān. He became very angry, and he set fire in the Laṅkā. Unless one is very angry, he cannot do that. But that krodha was applied to the demon. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. So we can utilize kāma, krodha, moha, bewilderment. When we cannot find out a bhakta, then we should be bewildered. Śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvam (CC Antya 20.39). So therefore bhakti process means that everything has to be purified. Krodha, Hanumān's krodha, to set fire Laṅkā, it is purified krodha. But they cannot understand the krodha, how it is purified. But krodha can be purified. When it is bhakta-dveṣi-jane . . . those who are envious of God and His devotees, upon them you should be always angry. "No, I have become a bhakta. I cannot be . . ." Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed by His example. He said, tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā (CC Adi 17.31). But when Nityānanda Prabhu was injured, He became so angry, He immediately said, "Bring My cakra. I shall kill the Jagāi-Mādhāi." So at that time He's not tṛṇād api sunīcena. That is krodha bhakta-dveṣi. So we have this kāma, krodha, moha, everything, whatever sense activity we have got. When they are utilized for Kṛṣṇa, then it is purified. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena (CC Madhya 19.170). Now there is fight . . . just like political fight. In the political fight both the parties, they are trying to get supremacy of their own sense gratification. But here the fight, Rāma-Rāvaṇa, Hanumān's krodha was not for himself. He did not want the Laṅkā kingdom. But because Rāmacandra wanted that "This man should be punished," he cooperated: "Yes." This is spiritual. In this way, when we purify all our activities, all our sensual activities, then it is right. Otherwise . . . just like Arjuna: he purified his senses. A Vaiṣṇava is naturally nonviolent, but in order to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, he fought. That is purified. So we have to purify. Our activities cannot be stopped. That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: All activities done for sake of Kṛṣṇa, or God, are the real . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Mad-arthe. Mat-para. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogam . . . (BG 7.1). This is yoga. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. Yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. When you take shelter . . . but these Māyāvādīs . . . where is mad-āśrayaḥ? "He is nirākāra." So there is no āśraya. So they cannot perform this yoga because there is no mad-āśrayaḥ. Āśraya loiyā bhaje kṛṣṇa tāre nāhi tyāge. If one takes shelter of Kṛṣṇa and he works under His direction, then he's never forsaken or rejected by Him. He's always under the protection of Kṛṣṇa. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). So that should be our duty. We shall act only to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Then our activities are purified, and then we are liberated.

Trivikrama: That requires a guru.

Prabhupāda: Unless guru, how you know? Guru is the representative of Kṛṣṇa. We cannot directly meet Kṛṣṇa at the present moment. So this is called vyavasāyātmikā buddhi. If we work under the direction of the representative of Kṛṣṇa, that is perfect. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā. You are singing daily. Whatever guru has said, take it seriously. Don't manufacture your ideas. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, āra nā koriho mane āśā.

Mr. Gupta: Just as you have given an example of krodha by Lord Hanumān in burning Laṅkā, are there any such instances where lobha could also be personified Lord Kṛṣṇa's desire?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Just like gopīs. They were always hankering, "When we shall see Kṛṣṇa? When we shall see Kṛṣṇa? When I shall . . .? When I shall meet?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me (CC Antya 20.39): "Oh, I see everything vacant without Govinda." This is ecstasy of lobha—to meet Kṛṣṇa. So when you will be strongly hankering after Kṛṣṇa, lobha, greedy, or devotee, then lobha is properly utilized.

Dr. Patel: When Kṛṣṇa disappeared from rasa, what they did?

Prabhupāda: There are so many instances. You can utilize your hankering for Kṛṣṇa and His devotees.

Trivikrama: There's one verse like that, ekalaṁ mūlyaṁ lobha . . .

Prabhupāda: Laulyam ekalaṁ mūlyam (CC Madhya 8.70).

Trivikrama: Ah, yes.

Prabhupāda: Laulyam, yes, right. That is greediness. Laulyam. The verse is by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He advises, kṛṣṇa-bhakti-rasa-bhāvitā matiḥ krīyatāṁ yadi kuto 'pi labhyate: "This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you purchase. If it is available somewhere, immediately purchase it." So the next question is: if you want to purchase something, you must pay the price. So therefore said that, "The price is laulyam, greediness: How I shall become Kṛṣṇa conscious?" That is price: "How I shall?" "Oh, that I can very easily." No. Na janma-koṭi-sukṛtair labhyate: "If one has done pious activities for many, many births, he also cannot have this greediness." It is so rare. But if you have got that greediness, you get Kṛṣṇa.

Trivikrama: Intense greediness.

Prabhupāda: Intense greediness. So one may think, "Oh, I can be very greedy." So the answer is na janma-koṭi-sukṛtair labhyate.

Mr. Gupta: If a human being can try repeatedly, showing kāma, krodha, lobha, moha . . . he keeps on trying to get over it. He keeps on . . .

Prabhupāda: That is negative side.

Mr. Gupta: . . . and again keeps on trying . . .

Prabhupāda: That is negative side. First of all . . . just like mauna . . . (break) Why maunam? There is no need of maunam. You have to chant: kīrtanīyaḥ sadā. So there is negative side and positive. One who has no information of the positive side, they simply take the negative side. Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Jagan mithyā, it is all right, but where is that brahma satyam? That brahma satyam is here, when you are fully engaged in serving. Brahma satyam does not mean I simply make negative this, and there is no engagement. That brahma satyam will not endure. You'll fall down. Because you are active. If you have no engagement, then you fall down again. Just like a child, he is engaged in playing always, but engage him in studying. If he gets little interest, then automatically he gives up playing. But if you simply stop playing, then he will become mad. Because activity is there. These Māyāvādī philosophers, they do not know this. They simply take the negative thing—this material engagement, zero, Buddha philosophy, nirvāṇa. And that nirvāṇa is another word, nirviśeṣa. That will not help us. There must be varieties and there must be positive life, and that is bhakti. So without bhakti you cannot stop your nonsense activities, neither . . .

Dr. Patel: Īśvara-parijanat. This rāja-yoga also, citta-vṛtti nirodha mad jīvan . . . But even you get the same thing by īśvara-parijanat. So Vaiṣṇava cult is easier than getting the mind blank and then getting all in the . . . (indistinct) . . . because here your mind is engaged to Lord Himself. It is . . . we call as samādhi.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Just like a man is observing Ekādaśī, fasting. Another, in the hospital, he's also fasting. So these two fastings, they are different.

Dr. Patel: Here fasting of all the senses and applying to God.

Prabhupāda: For satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. And there, compulsory fasting, but he has got desire. So paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. When you get better taste, when you stop this nonsense for better taste, that is positive. Artificially if you do, it will not benefit.

Dr. Patel: Sir, Ekādaśī, according to the Purāṇas and the stories, all the eleven senses should be withdrawn from their sense objects . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Ekādaśī, that is automatically. Ekādaśī is one of the process for . . . Ja rahe hai kya? (Are you leaving?)

Indian man: Nahi inko thoda kuch kaam tha. Ek patra dena tha wo, koi Punjab se aye huye hai uske liye . . . (No, he has some pending work. There is a letter to be posted, someone from Punjab has come . . .)

Indian lady: Hum aye huye hai. (I have come.)

Indian man: Accha. Mai apko patra de deta hu. Maine phone kar diya hai. Saat baje hum a jayenge, wo admi . . . (Okay. I will give the letter to you. I have told him. By seven o' clock I will reach there . . .)

Indian lady: Thik hai. Ek minute . . . (Okay. One minute.) May I ask one question? I'm running my own school in Hoshiarpur, and it starts to A-class, and I want to convert it into gurukula. How I can make arrangements for the books and that examination or the students can take valid certificate and take examination from recognized board? We should make something.

Prabhupāda: Running on . . .? What is that school?

Indian lady: All kind of . . . private school, English-medium.

Prabhupāda: But if you have to work under government regulation, then you cannot do it. You won't get government help.

Indian lady: But I want to convert it into gurukula on the basis of Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Our gurukula means how to teach them to become self-controlled. That is first business. This literary education secondary, grammar secondary. The first necessity how to create them śānta, dānta, self-controlled.

Indian lady: But we have attached with the Punjab Board, education board . . .

Prabhupāda: And therefore I say, if you have to work under government control, it is very difficult. If you can work independently, then it is possible.

Indian lady: It is independent. I'm independent. I'm doing everything.

Prabhupāda: No, if you take government help . . .

Indian lady: But the students go for examination in the board only.

Prabhupāda: Examination or no examination, if you . . . they practice the rules, that is sufficient examination. Suppose one of the items, that one has to rise early in the morning. So if one is rising early in the morning, then what is the examination? That is already examined. If one has to rise early in the morning, attend the maṅgala-ārati, sitting in the class and reading Bhagavad-gītā, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa . . . these are all practical. There is no need of examination. If he is doing, then it is examination passed.

Indian lady: But the parents want certificate.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, if you want to satisfy the parents, the government, then it is not possible. You have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.

Indian lady: They have to go in colleges.

Prabhupāda: I know that. Therefore I said that if you have to satisfy so many masters, it is not possible.

Dr. Patel: At the most she can give some sort of a cultural education along with those programs.

Prabhupāda: What is that cultural? If he does not practice, what is that culture? It is practice.

Dr. Patel: Practice in Bhagavad-gītā and practice in the subjects.

Prabhupāda: What is the use? They will produce that, such blind leaders.

Dr. Patel: They will not produce so bad leaders then, perhaps. At least they will have a little better understanding than those fools who have no background of religion at all. Well, your schools, they . . . so-called secularism that means no religion.

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to follow the śāstra. Then it will be possible. Brahmacārī guru-kule . . . (SB 7.12.1).

Indian lady: Christians have their own government schools everywhere . . . (indistinct) . . . and we can have our own Kṛṣṇa consciousness school.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are having our own—all over the world. We don't follow the government regulations.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct) (break)

Trivikrama: How about Dr. Patel?

Dr. Patel: I am a fool. (laughs) He has called me.

Indian man (2): Well, at least you realize that you're part of the fool . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone.

Indian man (2): . . . and we all are! We realize that. So there's still some hope for . . .

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu also used to say that "I am a fool." And that is the . . . (indistinct)

Dr. Patel: So I am in a good company now. (laughs) I think so.

Prabhupāda: Certainly. Certainly.

Trivikrama: Everyone in a body means . . .

Prabhupāda: Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana (CC Adi 7.71). Guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana. A student should always remain to be chastised by guru. That is his right position. And as soon as he thinks that he has become more than his guru, then he'll be finished, his career.

Trivikrama: Jumping over the head.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Just like our Nitāi. (chuckles) This is the difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu remained—guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana: "My Guru Mahārāja has chastised Me because I am fool number one." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu is fool? But He's showing the example that you should always remain . . .

Dr. Patel: The avatāras shall behave like common men. Otherwise They will not be . . . all avatāras behave like common men.

Prabhupāda: Our Guru Mahārāja, so strict. A little discrepancy, he would chastise like anything. But we liked it very much.

Indian (2): Guru's chastise is the mercy.

Prabhupāda: Śiṣyaṁ ca putraṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet (Nīti Śāstra). That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction. "The sons and disciples should always be chastised. Never pat them."

Dr. Patel: Tāḍayet must be returned.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Tāḍayet may be returned.

Prabhupāda: Tāḍayet means taraṇa, chastisement.

Indian (3): Actually we were so rapt, we wish to be beaten by your stick on our head.

Prabhupāda: Śiṣya, this word, very word, means voluntarily accepting the chastisement. This word, śiṣ, śās, śās-dhātu. From śās-dhātu comes śastra. Śastra means weapon. So weapon is meant for maintaining peace and order. And śāstra, śāsana. These are the derivation from original root . . . śiṣya. Śiṣya means who has voluntarily accepted to be chastised and ruled by the spiritual master.

Dr. Patel: Śikṣā means instruction. So the one who takes the instruction is śiṣya, śikṣā.

Prabhupāda: To obey. Śiṣya means to obey, discipline.

Dr. Patel: Live under the paternity of guru to learn.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Voluntarily giving him the right to rule over.

Dr. Patel: All gurus are very severe taskmasters.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dr. Patel: All gurus are very severe taskmasters. A small thing, they turn away the śiṣya. Sometimes they used to do like that. And they never used to . . . I mean . . . (indistinct) . . . you hear stories that a boy was sent away with a cow and asked to come back when he had a thousand cows, becoming thousand, and he automatically got all, all the knowledge. These are the type of gurus were there sometimes.

Indian (3): I think the similes can be misunderstood also sometimes.

Dr. Patel: These are similes or metaphor—we don't know. But that is a fact.

Indian (3): Well, I don't think you or I, any of us, knows what is the fact. It's what's conveyed and interpreted to us that we know.

Dr. Patel: That means you must have extreme blind faith in guru. If a guru says that "You jump in the well," and you can jump in the well, then you get the goal. That is why that man went with ten cows and came back after twelve years making them thousand. Otherwise he becomes a cowherd. "What will I get knowledge by doing . . . charao gai (. . . grazing cows) in the jungle?" No. But if he has that faith, faith . . . it is the faith.

Prabhupāda: How much progress is being made?

Girirāja: Tremendous.

Trivikrama: That's what I was saying. I heard a tape two years ago, but I didn't . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. I mean to say this construction.

Girirāja: Oh, I thought . . .

Dr. Patel: You thought for me! (laughs)

Girirāja: I thought he was improving. (laughter) Well, the construction is, you know, going at the same rate. I spoke to the marble . . . there's two marble contractors. The one who's doing the floor, he's going very quickly. All the guest rooms are finished and half of the bathrooms are finished. The temple room is mostly finished. Main problem is the columns and arches. And it seems that that contractor has a bad reputation for taking money and then wasting time. So . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh. He has taken money?

Girirāja: It seems he has taken lot of money . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Girirāja: . . . on the plea that he needed it to get the work going. So, er . . .

Prabhupāda: The same thing was done in Māyāpur. These cheaters, they take advance money, and then they do . . .

Dr. Patel: The contractor of mine also did the same thing in my house. Give them advance . . . ho gaya (. . . finished.) That's it.

Prabhupāda: Then? What to do?

Dr. Patel: We have not such a good answer.

Girirāja: Well, the floor man, he made . . . (break) (end)