770109 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770109MW-BOMBAY - January 09, 1977 - 44:27 Minutes

Prabhupāda: That you'll find everywhere. There is no such thing.

Dr. Patel: Americans are more sophisticated. (break)

Prabhupāda: They are thinking like that.

Dr. Patel: The court's ruling like that, then it will be . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we have got our own fight. The thought-checking. So "I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Why you are checking me?" This will be our defense. Do you think Kṛṣṇa-thinking is illegal and madness? Then you have to condemn the whole Hindu religion.

Trivikrama: Every religion.

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is taken as Hindu God. So "I'm thinking of Hindu God. Why you are checking me?"

Dr. Patel: I think that modern Christianity has . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa. We are reading Bhagavad-gītā and killing Kṛṣṇa. This same disease is everywhere. Our national father is supposed to be a great devotee of Bhagavad-gītā, but Kṛṣṇa is killed. Why the government does not take it seriously, that Gandhi wanted Bhagavad-gita as guide? Why they are not taking?

Dr. Patel: That is the vaiṣṇava jan to tene kahiye ji . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is all bogus. Bogus. Simply bogus. Politics. In Gandhi's āśrama I saw not a single Vaiṣṇava or Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Photographs, you mean to say.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "He's Vaiṣṇava." Bogus.

Dr. Patel: He never visited any temple.

Prabhupāda: Bogus! Simply politics.

Dr. Patel: He wanted to . . . (indistinct) . . . other Muslims and all other . . . especially untouchables.

Prabhupāda: The people approached him that "Mahatmaji, you have got influence over the Muslims. Why not stop cow-killing?" "Oh, I cannot touch on their religious principles." Just see. Cow-killing is religious. Their religious principle. If I say, "My father-killing, mother-killing is my religion," so Gandhi will say, "Yes, you can do that. Nonviolent." Kill nonviolent. This nonsense contradiction can be tolerated by the fools and rascals. That's all. That is . . . nonviolence, at the same time cow-killing. This rascal, another rascal, he was observing Buddha-jayantī and daily cow-killing. As if Buddha, Lord Buddha, recommended cow-killing.

Dr. Patel: Buddhists all eat . . . are meat-eaters, sir, the world over.

Prabhupāda: Not a question of Buddhist. That is Christian, Hindus, everyone. Rascals. I mean, Lord Buddha, he was nonviolent, and this Jawaharlal Nehru was observing Buddha-jayantī and at the same time sanctioning cow-killing. What is that, cow-killing? "What is wrong in eating meat?" He has said that. (break) . . . advertising our movement. Everyone's asking, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa?" That is the whole American people. Even if one did not know, he is now trying: "What is Hare Kṛṣṇa?" And our books are selling: "What is this Kṛṣṇa book?" So indirectly they're advertising. (break) . . . their greatest shock, that "Our people being taught 'No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication.' Then where is our civilization?" (laughter) This is their greatest shock. Any sane man can understand that this Hindu culture is being forcibly introduced.

Dr. Patel: The judge must be a . . . (indistinct) . . . fellow.

Prabhupāda: Must be. The judge is also the same person, meat-eating person. How you can separate?

Dr. Patel: This type of judgment . . . (indistinct) . . . free. Freedom. We have cherished that type of freedom in our country.

Prabhupāda: No, they are thinking I am checking on their freedom. They eat meat. I say, "No, don't eat meat." So I am checking on their freedom. They'll take it in that way.

Dr. Patel: Who are these fellows not to be . . . (indistinct) . . . eh?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: It's called a fool's paradise.

Dr. Patel: These people harass . . . (indistinct) . . . must have sort of a false sense of superiority also because of that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another point.

Dr. Patel: Material prosperity.

Prabhupāda: India is becoming superior.

Dr. Patel: (laughs) I think that is more . . .

Prabhupāda: And he is controlling this younger generation. That is another point of . . .

Dr. Patel: They're putting black man without any penny in his pocket, like that.

Prabhupāda: Why . . . in 1971 many papers were astonished how one Indian is controlling so many white men. There, our paper became surprised. They cannot control even one white man.

Dr. Patel: This type of, I mean, mental sort of a make-up has been created after the second . . . after the first industrial revolution, because . . .

Prabhupāda: These German people have accused that "The old man is sitting in Los Angeles, and he has engaged all these young boys and getting money from them." The German propaganda. They're thinking that way, that I have some mind-control power; I have engaged these young men and they're getting money, and I am enjoying.

Trivikrama: Everyone judges others from their own . . .

Dr. Patel: Standard.

Prabhupāda: They're surprised, the neighboring people around our temple, "How do you live so comfortably? You have got so many cars and so nice house." But they are working hard like hogs and dogs, and we are getting money without doing anything. They are envious.

Trivikrama: We invite them to come and join us.

Prabhupāda: That they will not. Why there? Here also. They are envious for this Hare Kṛṣṇa, but when you call, "You come and live here," in India, that they will avoid. They're envious of my opulence, and when I say, invite, "You come also and join," "No. I'll rot as hog." That's all. "I prefer this hoggish life."

Trivikrama: And the she-hog.

Dr. Patel: This will create a sort of a turmoil . . .

Prabhupāda: It has already created.

Dr. Patel: . . . there in America at this particular judgment.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Dr. Patel: It will create much more turmoil.

Trivikrama: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: The more they create turmoil, the more we become famous.

Devotee: They say mind control and brainwashing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but actually that is what you are doing. You are cleaning our brain and teaching us how to control our minds.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our method is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Yes, actually it is washing.

Dr. Patel: But brainwashing is very bad in India. Not only in America but the whole world over. The way the world is getting for some sort of . . .

Prabhupāda: I condemn everyone, that "You are all dogs and hogs." And United Nation a pack of dogs only.

Dr. Patel: Barking.

Prabhupāda: Yes, barking. That's a fact. And in Chicago I said, all women, "You cannot have freedom. You have got only thirty-four-ounce brain, and man has got sixty-four-ounce." I told them. So I became a subject of very great criticism. (laughs) (laughter)

Trivikrama: Women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I denied, "No, you cannot have." I told them.

Dr. Patel: The women's lib will become very violent . . .

Prabhupāda: One girl in the airship, she was seeing like (makes a gesture) (laughter). I asked her, "Give me 7-Up." "It is locked now." So I frankly said that "No, no. You cannot have equal rights because your brain is thirty-four ounce." Actually that's a fact. Where is woman philosopher, mathematician, scientist? Not a single.

Dr. Patel: Apart from that, I mean, they are made for a particular mission.

Prabhupāda: How they can have equal rights? Up to date in the history there is not a single woman who is a great scientist or great philosopher or great . . .

Dr. Patel: Madame Curie was expert . . .

Prabhupāda: All bogus. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Sir, you are getting too harsh on them, because they are . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. How can I give you equal rights, because your brain is less substance.

Dr. Patel: We cannot degrade our mothers that way.

Prabhupāda: It is not degraded. It is accepting the actual fact.

Dr. Patel: These girls are misled, these American girls.

Prabhupāda: There is no history. There is no history. Just like Kuntī's mother, she produced so many heroes, but she was not hero. She could produce heroes like Arjuna, like Bhima, but not that she becomes hero.

Dr. Patel: Mother can produce heroes, sir . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still, nobody will say that Kuntī is as good as Arjuna or Bhima.

Dr. Patel: How can anybody say?

Prabhupāda: That is . . . how you'll get the equal rights?

Dr. Patel: No woman smaller than Kuntī could have produced an Arjuna.

Prabhupāda: You can produce. That is another thing. A cook can produce foodstuff suitable for rich man, but that does not mean he is rich man.

Dr. Patel: You argue. (laughs)

Devotee: Prabhupāda, you told one story about the animals having a meeting and trying to become free from the control of . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Our śāstras say yatra naryas ca pūjyante ramante . . .

Prabhupāda: Pūjya . . . everyone is pūjyante. That is according to his position. That does not mean equal. Kṛṣṇa Himself worshiped Sudāmā Vipra. That does not mean Sudāmā Vipra is as good as the Personality of Godhead. When Nārada was coming in Dvārakā, Kṛṣṇa immediately got down and . . . Nārada was smiling, "Just see the fun." But etiquette. That is another thing. Nārada never said that "I am better than Kṛṣṇa or equal to Kṛṣṇa." Never said.

Trivikrama: Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Everyone knew their position. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is addressed by Arjuna, "Acyuta, You promised to drive my chariot, therefore I'm asking You. Don't forget. You never deviate from Your promise." Acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta (BG 1.21). "Don't forget that You are Acyuta. Don't think that I am Your servant, I am ordering." He knows that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I am ordering Him."

Devotee: You were explaining to that reporter in Pennsylvania, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that actually this women's liberation is just a trick by the men.

Prabhupāda: Yes! It is trick by the men, yes.

Dr. Patel: How . . . could you explain that?

Prabhupāda: Because if they remain free, they get young women free.

Trivikrama: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: That's rascal's man brain, that "You take freedom."

Dr. Patel: This is a third-class argument.

Prabhupāda: This is argument! This is argument. This is fact. These rascals keep these women unmarried to enjoy daily new, new young women, these karmīs, these rascals. There is club. There is club. These young women are paid for that topless, bottomless. You do not know.

Dr. Patel: No. I have never seen a girl naked. I refuse to . . .

Prabhupāda: I have . . . I know everything.

Devotee: Prabhupāda, you gave the example that what is the use of keeping a cow if you can get milk in the marketplace.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Cow-keeping is expensive.

Dr. Patel: Why keep a cow when milk is available. (laughs)

Trivikrama: No, no. It's a fact. The young men think like that.

Prabhupāda: They make pregnant and they go away. And this poor girl, either she has to kill the child or beg from the government, "Give me welfare; otherwise . . ." Is that freedom? These rascal woman . . .

Dr. Patel: This is freedom. Actually the government is recognized that . . .

Prabhupāda: Government means a set of rascals. But practical point of view, the woman wants equal right. Equal rights they enjoy, and the woman becomes pregnant, and he goes away, the boy. And she has to kill the child or beg from the government. This is her freedom. And still, equal rights. Where is equal right? The boy has gone away. You also go away? No. You'll have to carry the child. To get freedom you have to kill or you have to beg. And still she thinks, "I am free."

Dr. Patel: Such experience . . . (indistinct) . . . by being a woman . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Rather we are giving freedom, that "Never mind you have got illegitimate son. Come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Trivikrama: And by teaching them to be chaste . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. And teaching, "Don't do it again." That's all. We are giving. And they are happy. My Godbrothers criticize that, "You keep women in the temple." I tell them, "I cannot reject."

Dr. Patel: I was also thinking like that, sir. Today there is, I mean, a presence. I said that Vaiṣṇavas, they keep woman . . .

Prabhupāda: It is different situation. I cannot reject anyone.

Dr. Patel: No, that's right. You are right. But this is a great affecting the boys down here. After all, the sex is such . . .

Prabhupāda: But they are taught, "Don't be misled." But if they cannot, that may be . . . (indistinct) . . . I cannot deny. I cannot deny. I cannot say that "You are woman. You are condemned." I cannot.

Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to keep women away from the sannyāsīs.

Prabhupāda: That is personally as a sannyāsī, not that . . . he never said that women should be refused Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: No. That nobody has said so. But they should not mix.

Prabhupāda: Here in the Western country it is their custom to mix, intermingle freely. How can I stop it? I may stop in my temple, but they will do it outside. So it is impossible.

Jagadīśa: Nowadays even in the universities, they allow the free mixing of boys and girls in the same dormitories.

Dr. Patel: In the same . . .

Jagadīśa: In the same dormitories.

Prabhupāda: Same room.

Dr. Patel: Oh. In the same dormitories they live together, you mean. Girls have no separate . . .

Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. Free mixing.

Trivikrama: Same showers even. Bathroom the same.

Dr. Patel: Oh. Then when they are out from the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa gives freedom. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parām. "Never mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa (BG 9.32). "Anyone, come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take prasādam." This is my propaganda.

Dr. Patel: My mind is haunted by those . . . (indistinct) . . . there will be somebody . . .

Prabhupāda: I know that I sincere to Kṛṣṇa, He'll do the rest.

Dr. Patel: That is right. You have an extreme faith.

Prabhupāda: Faith means extreme faith. Not reserved. No.

Dr. Patel: That is what I said.

Prabhupāda: Faith does not mean any reservation. What is that? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. This is . . . ananya-bhāk. No reservation. That is . . . sādhur eva. He is sādhu. Whatever he does, it doesn't matter. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He sādhu. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). These are the words. Requires staunch faithful devotion. Then you are perfect. Then doesn't matter what you are, what you are doing. Whether the real point is fixed up. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Fifty-percent, ten-percent devotion . . .

Dr. Patel: Not even .001 percent reservation. I mean so far the bhakti's concerned. Bhaktya avyabhicareṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhuyaya (BG 14.26). Even in the Brahman platform. Not in the material platform. Sa guṇān samatītya. Sama-prakarena utītya. Cent percent utītya.

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) . . . this thing happens the right sort of people, everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is credit.

Dr. Patel: This is credit, and this is also, I mean, that this should happen also . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the right movement. This is the test.

Dr. Patel: If all that . . .

Prabhupāda: Who cares for this Transcendental Meditation? They are not hogging any propaganda. It is coming this ear and going this ear. They don't care for it. So many others have gone. Who cares for them? They are not serious for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they know it is changing the whole civilization.

Devotee: There's that one verse you were saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that so many Brahmās may come and go . . .

Prabhupāda: Unless there is opposition, it is not genuine. It is not genuine or it is not serious. Opposition must be there. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead—there is opposition always, from the very beginning of His birth.

Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa had all the opposition throughout His life.

Prabhupāda: Throughout His life. That means genuine Supreme Lord.

Dr. Patel: Throughout, right up to His . . .

Prabhupāda: Before His birth.

Dr. Patel: Before, yes. And after, He was cursed by His own cousin . . . His brother, I mean His friend. They were from . . . (indistinct) . . . because of opposition.

Prabhupāda: Śiśupāla was His cousin-brother.

Dr. Patel: Cousin-brother. Masi ka ladka. (Son of his aunt.) All masi and mama himself, and if you consider that way, He rose against all odds. So greater the opposition, better you become.

Prabhupāda: Samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu (BG 9.29). God must be equal to everyone.

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. You are right. With that extreme faith, Jesus . . . (indistinct) . . . Jesus took to the cross. Huh? (break)

Prabhupāda: That is the greatness of the movement. (break)

Dr. Patel: We will be meeting with all people in the whole world. And you will be . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the oldest.

Dr. Patel: (laughing) Keep in my hand and walk. And I would say, sir, that you also should not take bath in cold water.

Prabhupāda: No, I don't take. I never take. Since 1970 . . . 1966, '67, I am not taking cold water bath. Before that, even in America I was taking twice cold water bath.

Dr. Patel: I have never taken cold water in my life.

Prabhupāda: Shower I was taking.

Dr. Patel: All these boys take cold water. I enquired from them.

Prabhupāda: I never used hot water. In India, the Delhi is the coldest part. In my business life, in the hotel I was taking cold water. Everyone was surprised: "How you can?" In Saharanpur, in bitter cold, and I was taking cold water early in the morning.

Dr. Patel: This will be extreme cold in rivers. I have taken bath in the confluence four or five years back. It was not winter, but then it was . . . it is cold throughout the year, because snow melts and keep water very cold.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . gentleman will have a flag in the home.

Dr. Patel: During the times of Moguls you have seen all the pictures with the flag.

Prabhupāda: That was the system. So our Pandit Jawaharlal was keeping one flag, always.

Dr. Patel: But what prosperity India must have, that those people from Europe tried to find out India and went down there and founder America. What prosperity they must have. What prosperity India must have then, three hundred, four hundred years back.

Prabhupāda: India can have prosperity even now if they take their own culture.

Dr. Patel: No, even material prosperity I mean to say, sir.

Prabhupāda: Material. Mind is also material.

Dr. Patel: Europeans came here for material prosperity.

Prabhupāda: If you want satisfaction of the mind, that is material; that is not spiritual. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni (BG 15.7).

Indian lady: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tabiyat theek hai? baithiye. (Your health is fine? Sit down.) (break) Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni. Mind and the senses, they're prakṛti-sthāni. They're not spiritual.

Dr. Patel: No, but, sir, if that is material . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mind is subtle matter. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir. Bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). They are separated five material energies. Apareyam: they are inferior. Those who are in the mental platform, they are also inferior. The so-called philosopher, scientist and others, they are on the mental platform. Therefore they're inferior, apareyam. These eight elements, those who are dealing with these eight elements—aparā, inferior. And they are advertising that "We are superior." "The spiritual consciousness is brainwashed. We are superior." This is the fault. Of the inferior position, they are claiming superior position. Apareyam itas tu viddhi . . . and Kṛṣṇa is giving practical example: "Apareyam: this is inferior. Beyond this there is a superior nature. What is that? Jīva bhūta." Immediately. And still the rascal cannot understand what is superior, inferior.

Indian lady: (indistinct Hindi) . . . Aapka application de diya hai. kal mai delhi ja rahi hoon . . . (Your application is submitted. Tomorrow I am going to Delhi . . .)

Prabhupada: Accha theek hai. kijiye bahut seva aur jitna seva kijiyega bhagvan utna hi santusht hoga. (Okay, alright. Do a lot of service and the more service you do, God will be so much pleased.)

Indian lady: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Indian lady: . . . Dr Mehta hain bombay me bade rich aadmi hain. Wo . . . maine unse baat-cheet kari thee to maine kaha swamiji ke darshan karenge aur jo mere layak seva hogi. Unhon ne kaha koi bhi problem ho mere se aake bole . . . (. . . Dr Mehta is in Bombay, a very rich man. He . . . I have spoken to him. I told him I would like an audience with Swamiji and whatever service befits me, I am ready to do. He said if there is any problem, come and tell me . . .)

Prabhupāda: . . . itna meherbani kijiye ye jo hamare shishya jo ye sansthan America me chala rahe hain inko agar permanent visa de diya jaye to hamara bahut suvidha hoga. (Do this favor for me, that my disciples who are in America with this organization, get them a permanent visa and it will be very convenient for us.)

Indian lady: Haan, wo to help karenge hi to isiliye wahan . . . (Yes, that help I will do, that is why there . . .) (break)

Prabhupada: Kyonki isko change after that usme ek vyakti ke liye 10000 rupaya kharch hota hai. Aisa 100 cases 100 times 10000, kitna kharch hota hai dekhiye, jhoot-moot. (Because this must be changed, after that for one person 10,000 Rupees is spent. Like this 100 cases, 100 times so 10,000, how much unnecessary expenditure.)

Indian lady: . . . kyonki yahan se jana mushkil ho jayega . . . (. . . because to go from here is difficult . . .)

Rāmeśvara: That is our argument.

Dr. Patel: Sunday. Today is Sunday, no?

Prabhupada: Times of India?...

Dr. Patel: Chase after them, "Get out! Get out! Your visa is finished." It would be the brainwash. To have washed it against politics.

Prabhupāda: "Now, I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and if you stop me to think of Kṛṣṇa, is it not going against my thought?" Bhagavad-gītā, it is recommended, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65). So this is a standard thing. So "I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Why you should stop me? Is it not infringement my freedom?"

Rāmeśvara: But they argue that they are not stopping you from thinking about Kṛṣṇa. They want to stop you from being a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: Why? If I have to think of Kṛṣṇa, I must be member of the society. Otherwise how can I think of? Suppose if I have to do business, share business, I have to become a member of the share market.

Rāmeśvara: But they say that the way the society is managed . . .

Prabhupāda: You can say. But this is the system. If you have got some thought, you must mix with such similar thoughtful men. That is everywhere. The scholars, they associate; the medical men, they associate. How can you stop it?

Rāmeśvara: They don't think it's healthy.

Prabhupāda: They may think anything nonsense, but this is practically going on. The medical men, they make their association. Especially in your country, unless one is member of the medical association he cannot practice.

Rāmeśvara: But the medical association does not take up twenty-four hours of his time.

Prabhupāda: No. Not only twenty-four hours, twenty-six hours.

Rāmeśvara: That is their charge—that it is too extreme. They say we isolate the devotees from the real world. We don't let them read newspapers, we don't let them . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your thought real world. But you do not know what is reality. Your real world is this body. But this body is not real. That, you rascal, you cannot understand. (laughter)

Trivikrama: That's just your opinion.

Prabhupāda: Your reality is this body, but body not real.

Rāmeśvara: Even if this world is not real, temporarily it's real.

Prabhupāda: Temporary, yes. So I am eternal. I must associate with eternity. Why shall I . . . temporary? Suppose if somebody comes in India, American, that is his temporary residence. Why shall I accept India as everything? Similarly, this body is another India, or for Indian, America. It is temporary, asann, asat. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). This body is temporary. That you have no knowledge. So why shall I be attached to the temporary things? I am the owner of the body, I am reality, so I must realize myself—self-realization. This is self-realization, that "I am not this body, I am pure soul, Brahman." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.

Dr. Patel: Even Jesus said so.

Prabhupāda: This is all right. Christ said that if getting everything one loses his own soul . . . what is that?

Trivikrama: "What is the value?"

Prabhupāda: What is the value?

Rāmeśvara: They would say that we are ignoring this world and retreating from it.

Prabhupāda: We must! We must! You rascal! You do not know the science.

Trivikrama: They have their retreats and monasteries, Christians also.

Prabhupāda: We must. That is the science. That is . . . you do not know. Because your tail is cut you want others also to cut his tail.

Rāmeśvara: Their main charge is that we are deceptive. In other words, we tell people that we are like this, but actually we are different. They say we tell people we will make them more intelligent . . .

Prabhupāda: If you are different, how the professors and scholars, they are accepting our . . . (indistinct) . . . they're taking our books?

Rāmeśvara: They say that's all right, but you practice differently than your books.

Prabhupāda: No. Our book says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. We always think of Kṛṣṇa. We act according, strictly according to our books. That is our position.

Rāmeśvara: The book says that this is the highest consciousness. They say it is not complete, because it doesn't have anything to do with the real world.

Prabhupāda: But we say that you are rascals. That's all.

Dr. Patel: If they say we have nothing to do with real world, where does the real world go when they are sleeping? That is . . . for them, this is the real world. Just because what is real for the body . . . I think that you must go for that. No? We must find out the full according to their own folly, not according to our reason.

Rāmeśvara: Just . . . the example of their charge of deception is that we are the Hare Kṛṣṇas, but when we go to sell our books we are in disguise. Therefore people do not know that they are giving money to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So they say our whole movement is like that in many different ways; we are tricking people.

Trivikrama: No, but the priests nowadays, they don't always wear the collar, because they want to feel comfortable with the people. They dress down.

Rāmeśvara: They say, "If people knew you were the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they would not give you so much money."

Haṁsadūta: Even the police, in order to catch a criminal, they sometimes go in disguise. They act as criminals, in order to catch a criminal. So we also have to do that. We have to act like demons sometimes.

Rāmeśvara: (laughing) To catch a demon.

Dr. Patel: These boys are very clever. (laughs)

Jagadīśa: Vāmanadeva also went in disguise. And Kṛṣṇa, Bhīma and Arjuna went in disguise. They killed Jarāsandha.

Haṁsadūta: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you wrote about Prahlāda Mahārāja, when they tried to find out "Where are these Vaiṣṇavas? They must be coming in disguise to teach the boys Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: What is the wrong there?

Dr. Patel: They are writing on the back behind you. These American boys they are harassing. They are gangsters. You can't be gangsters. They will be gangsters.

Trivikrama: For Kṛṣṇa we can be anything.

Dr. Patel: You can't be gangsters. There is some difference between them and you.

Rāmeśvara: This scholar from Harvard University, he's explained it very nicely. He says that today Christianity and Judaism are materialistic, and the people who follow those religions have misunderstood their own faith, and the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is reminding them. And it is the work of God.

Prabhupāda: Just see how nice he has . . .

Dr. Patel: Who is he?

Rāmeśvara: His name is Dr. Harvey Cox. He is widely known all over the world as a leading Christian theologian. He has written many books. And he said that Christianity today is synonymous with profit, material gain, accumulation, performance, material success. So it has lost or it has forgotten its original message. And it takes something as exotic as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement from India to remind the Christians that there's another way of life, based on simplicity and truth and spirituality.

Prabhupāda: He's right. And he's a very important man.

Rāmeśvara: He has joined this society to defend us. He's now traveling different places in the United States to speak on our behalf.

Prabhupāda: He's serious gentleman. That is wanted. Kṛṣṇa will help us.

Dr. Patel: Aldous Huxley is another. He's also very . . .

Trivikrama: He's dead.

Dr. Patel: He is dead. No? He is dead? How long?

Trivikrama: Since 1962.

Dr. Patel: (laughs) I had no idea of it. I am reading his books thinking he is still alive.

Trivikrama: He's a Māyāvādī, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Trivikrama: Aldous Huxley.

Prabhupāda: Aldous Huxley. He is useless. (laughter) Anyone connected with the Ramakrishna Mission is a useless. Immediately take it.

Dr. Patel: He was connected with Ramakrishna Mission.

Rāmeśvara: On one radio show they quoted from this Dr. Radhakrishnan that when you read Bhagavad-gītā you should not think that Kṛṣṇa is God.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Rāmeśvara: So then they say, "So even in India they reject this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." They say, "Look, this is the president of India. He is saying do not take Kṛṣṇa as God."

Prabhupāda: So even in your own country, the priest talks crazily. We should reply that. "Why do you go to India? Here in your country, your countrymen take it."

Rāmeśvara: Jesus was crucified in his own country.

Dr. Patel: By his own men.

Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali proverb geha yogi vipran. In a village, if a saintly person comes from outside, he is invited. And if a saintly person there is in the village, nobody cares for him.

Trivikrama: Yes. The Bible says the same.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Geha yogi vipran.

Dr. Patel: This will create some difficulty for your movement?

Prabhupāda: We don't care for it. We will go on. Caravan will pass. Let the dogs bark.

Dr. Patel: The dogs may bite.

Prabhupāda: No. Barking dog never bites. (laughter) Barking dog never bites. They simply make their show. Neither they can bite. We shall go now? (end)