770130 - Conversation A - Bhuvanesvara

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770130R1-BHUVANESVARA - January 30, 1977 - 73:14 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Putrikā. Putri, then kā, go together.

Indian man: Putrikā. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ācchā. Prabhupāda was reading in Manipuri.

Gargamuni: Two of our men tried to go to Manipur from Shillong. And they . . . do you know Prabhaviṣṇu?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah. No.

Gargamuni: But they could not . . . you have to get special license for foreigners.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Here's the letter. We can get it.

Prabhupāda: We shall get it. He will arrange. Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The letter. (long pause)

Prabhupāda: Cha joner ora receive korbe. (They are going to receive six people.)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cha joner mane oi bhara debe. (They will give the fare for six people.)

Prabhupāda: So you can arrange it. We shall go.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I gave a lecture last Sunday in that Gītā Maṇḍala. I gave a lecture. So they're very anxious to receive Śrīla Prabhupāda and the American devotees.

Prabhupāda: Make Manipur a big, nice center of Vaiṣṇava. You are descendants of Babhruvāhana. There is no doubt about it. Vaiṣṇava rāja. Make Manipur a strong center of Kṛṣṇa. And it will be easily done, strong Vaiṣṇava center, kṣatriya. I would like to see this.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think the government, the Manipur government, they are willing to even donate land.

Prabhupāda: Yes, let us cooperate.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be very easy.

Prabhupāda: Let us cooperate. The Manipur is already . . . for the last five thousand years at least, their name is in the Bhāgavatam—Manipur. And still they are Vaiṣṇavas. They have got temple in Navadvīpa, in Vṛndāvana. So Manipur have cele . . .

Gargamuni: The chief minister also came, in the past. Singh. Karan Singh?

Prabhupāda: The governor of Punjab is Manipuri. He's so kind, he came to see me with his full staff. That governor is so respectful to me. So he came to see me. You know?

Pradyumna: Yes. At Chandigarh.

Prabhupāda: Chandigarh, yes. In his state way—eti khan secretary, everything—he came to offer me respect. So Manipuri people are very nice. So why not organize, rejuvenate them? So you are the Manipur's son. Now you are a perfect Vaiṣṇava. Let us make Manipur a Vaiṣṇava kṣatriya center, very nice. Then make relation with Nepal. Nepal, they are kṣatriyas also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have intermarriage within the kingly families. The Manipur and Nepal . . .

Prabhupāda: There is marriage.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . they have intermarriage.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are kṣatriyas. Manipur, they are kṣatriyas, and Nepal is also kṣatriya. Bopal?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Bopal?

Prabhupāda: Bopal is also? They are kṣatriyas?

Pradyumna: Bhutani.

Prabhupāda: Bhutan. Bhutan, yes. Not Bopal. Bopal is in . . . in Bhutan.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nepal, Bhutan and Manipur.

Prabhupāda: So make Manipur a strong center and preach. The other side, Manipur, next is Burma?

Gargamuni: Burma.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They used to fight. The king of Manipur and the Burmese, fighting.

Prabhupāda: Still?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They used to fight, long ago.

Prabhupāda: Fighting between king and king, there is always. But what is the cause of fight? Vaiṣṇava should fight with the non-Vaiṣṇava. So I have already written you?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you can arrange when it will be suitable to go there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Any time will be suitable. This is pretty cold at this time.

Prabhupāda: Then it is not so good.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: After Māyāpur I think it will be best, this, the Māyāpur festival. Then it will be very nice. It's getting warmer. Actually it was seven degrees this morning, but they have very little snow.

Prabhupāda: So . . .

Hari-śauri: Very little? (laughs)

Gargamuni: We should go after Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: You came directly here by plane?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. I came to Calcutta. Ami bhabchilam apni oi Bombay te. (I was thinking that you are in Bombay.) So I was planning to go to Bombay. Then I went to the temple. Last night I came, and I called the temple, but there was nobody, so I didn't know where Prabhupāda is. So I was trying to go to Bombay today. Then I learned from the temple that Prabhupāda is here, so I was planning to go by . . . to come by train. Then I found out there is an airplane also available, so I came by plane.

Prabhupāda: Yes, from Calcutta to Bhuvaneśvara there is plane.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have never been here before in Bhuvaneśvara.

Prabhupāda: Bhuvaneśvara, Jagannātha Purī, they are important places. So give him prasāda first . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We had a meeting before I came here . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, ah.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . in Washington with Rūpānuga Prabhu and the other scientists in our group for the Institute. So I have some papers to be signed by Your Divine Grace. So we'll meet in the morning? Tomorrow?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (to other devotees) We have started one institute. Bhaktivedanta Institute?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And I want to show several aspects of our journal, Sa-vijñānam. We have almost completed the first volume.

Prabhupāda: They are publishing one paper, Sa-vijñānam. How do you like this name? Sa-vijñānam. This is picked up from Bhagavad-gītā. Jñānaṁ te 'haṁ sa-vijñānam vakṣyāmy aśeṣataḥ (BG 7.2). Sa-vijñānam. Sa-vijñānam means "according to science." So did you see . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have some designs about the covers of the first issue. We wanted to show to Śrīla Prabhupāda. I think I have here.

Prabhupāda: We are challenging scientists that "Life cannot be produced by chemicals only. Life comes from life." They're all big, big chemists. There is another Ph.D. Another M.A.C. M.A.C. this Oriya, Faree. He can also join.

Gargamuni: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I would like to see Tarun Kanti Gosh. He once told me any time you wanted to go to Manipur he would give an official letter.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gargamuni: So if I can show him this letter I can make arrangements now, so that after Māyāpur we can go.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Gargamuni: I can give them the names and our passport numbers.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have the forms. I brought from Manipur.

Prabhupāda: So you arrange it.

Gargamuni: Yes. 'Cause he will give this letter of recommendation for us to go.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I brought some samples that we want to do.

Pradyumna: This is like Scientific American cover, eh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, that is done by Sadāpūta.

Prabhupāda: Who is he?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's Darwin.

Prabhupāda: Oh. The nonsense. (laughter) Nastika banaya yehi sab duniya. (This is the person who turned everyone into an atheist.) (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . cover, this with the Māyāpur background. The idea is that at the bottom is the molecules, and . . .

Prabhupāda: This will be a revolution: science and Bhagavad-gītā.

Gargamuni: He's our member. (break) . . . three times to our temple in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gargamuni: And through another member, Mr. Mahesvari, he became one of our members. (break)

Prabhupāda: Rich man, poor man, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, American, Ind . . . sab combined (. . . everyone combined.) This is really United Nation, our organization. Dekhiye bade bade scientist log interested hai, agar isme substance nahi hai . . . (Just see, big big scientists are interested. If there were no substance in this . . .) So? What other pictures?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, I have many pictures. I gave a lecture, seminar, just before I came here at the university, about the nature of the Absolute Truth in terms of science and in terms of Bhagavad-gītā—a comparative study of the concept of the Absolute Truth. And there were many professors from physics, chemistry, mathematics, from philosophy, from biology and from sociology. So it was . . . Balavanta Prabhu was also there, and a few other devotees. It was quite interesting. And there was a slide show.

Prabhupāda: Balavanta was in Manipur?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. This is in the United States.

Prabhupāda: United States.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: America. Just before I came. So we made several slides and these, called transparencies. We are going to make all these things as illustrations in our book as well as in the journal. These are some samples that we have.

Prabhupāda: So what these big, big scientists said?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The chairman gave me a nice letter saying that this is the first type of seminar that he has ever heard in his life. (Prabhupāda chuckles) We made the presentation sound very scientific. We had the slide projection on one side, and this overhead projection on the other side. So it made a good presentation so that people can be attracted. It was quite effective. In fact, it was the most effective so far we have seen, because it was very colorful, the pictures, and we were comparing the fundamental concept of the Absolute Truth as it is understood by modern science and the defects of it, and then what is the alternative, the alternative view. We call it the other alternative scientific view. That is from . . . we speak about the Second Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, about the nature of life, about the nature of the self. We've taken that it's nonchemical and nonphysical. Then we try to explain it in terms of scientific terminologies and scientific language.

Prabhupāda: The . . . that verse that, "It does not burn, it does not . . ."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nainam . . . yes.

Prabhupāda: Nainaṁ chindanti. That is the nonphysical.

Hari-śauri: This is like a comparative study chart.

Prabhupāda: We are presenting śāstrīya's version in modern scientific symbolic representative. So the chairman said that he never . . .?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Here's the letter with me. That is the . . . these are the . . . that's a comparison between Bhagavad-gītā and science. On the left side is the modern scientific view, and the right side is from Bhagavad-gītā about the nature of the Absolute Truth.

Prabhupāda: (reading chart) "Two alternative views of the laws of nature. These laws exist, but they are inconceivable to the human mind. The view of modern science—yes. They exist invariantly throughout space—yes. They do not change with time—yes. They control all manifestation—no." What that is, mean?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Modern science. On Bhagavad-gītā . . . on the right column is from Bhagavad-gītā, the right-hand side, the alternative . . . we do not call Bhagavad-gītā directly, but we say: "The alternative view," so that they do not immediately be offended. We call "alternative scientific view." (break)

Prabhupāda: Now some person . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. It's very interesting that science says that those equations at the bottom are the . . . those are the ultimate truth, the modern science, about these mathematical equations. And so if we analyze this on the analytical basis, they are like this—those mathematical equations. So this is the concept of Absolute Truth in terms of science. And these are atoms and molecules or, we call it, fundamental particles. And so the spring between the two is sort of electromagnetic force in the different . . . among different particles. So this is the concept of Absolute Truth in terms of science. And we analyzed this in terms of our practical experience, from our day-to-day experience, and we gave some nice examples like this. This is a crocodile . . . oh. This is a crocodile from . . . it's a male crocodile from Nile . . . from South Africa, in Scientific American just a few months ago. There he's trying to break an egg just to come out, that little young one, the small baby crocodile. And what he does is . . .

Prabhupāda: They come out from egg?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They lay eggs.

Prabhupāda: Oh. How big it is?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't know how big it is.

Prabhupāda: Not very big.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I don't think it's very big.

Pradyumna: Not very big. Because they have baby crocodiles at home. In the United States it used to be the fashion to get a baby crocodile and keep him in a tub. Then he would get too big, so they would flush it down the toilet. And then in the sewers in New York, many crocodiles.

Hari-śauri: Yes. They're all living in the sewers. (Prabhupāda laughs)

Pradyumna: If one goes in the sewers it's very dangerous, because crocodiles have grown up and they are in the sewers. So they get them small size and they keep them at home.

Prabhupāda: And when it is bigger it is thrown into commode?

Pradyumna: Thrown in the commode. And it goes to the sewer. And in the sewer in New York are big underground, big, big tunnels, and in there big, big crocodiles. The men who work in the sewers . . . very dangerous for them because there're all big things there, crocodiles, snake, big cats.

Prabhupāda: Big cats?

Pradyumna: And big rats.

Prabhupāda: So the crocodile, they do not eat the rats?

Pradyumna: There are all kinds of many living entities there in the sewers of New York. In all sewers in big Western cities. There's once . . . there's a very famous French novel, and it describes how a prisoner was escaping from troops, so he went in the sewer. And in the sewer there was all kinds of so many things. Once an article about New York sewers . . .

Prabhupāda: They can live in that nasty water?

Hari-śauri: It's warm. The reason why they're down there is because the sewers are always very warm. So it's very conducive for the alligators. So they grow big, very big.

Prabhupāda: And what they eat?

Hari-śauri: Rodents. Rats and different things.

Pradyumna: London sewers also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The idea behind this is that the jaws of this crocodile is so big and so powerful that they can crush, they say, the femur of a buffalo, the thigh, a big . . . all at once, they can crush it immediately. But in the case of the egg, he has this loving tendency, tender care, so that the little one is not hurt—the feeling, their conscious feeling.

Prabhupāda: Affectionate.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. How that can come about by this . . . those pushes and pulls? That is our question. We inquire how can this be explained just in terms of atoms and molecules. If we assume that life is nothing but a manifestation of these pushes and pulls of these molecular interactions, then science has no explanation. Then we take example from Darwin himself, his own words.

Hari-śauri: Did you read this caption, Śrīla Prabhupāda, for this crocodile? 'Cause it explains how the male crocodile, he takes the egg underneath his tongue and he rolls it backwards and forwards very gently until the young crocodile hatches, and then he leaves his mouth open, and the little crocodile jumps out and swims ashore.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Hari-śauri: So the point they were making was that if it was simply a question of chemical reaction, that tendency . . .

Prabhupāda: How it is . . . how would that . . . eggs?

Hari-śauri: Yes. How would he have that loving feeling to hatch the baby?

Gargamuni: After all, they are man-eaters. They would immediately eat.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: But he is not eating.

Prabhupāda: No, that the other day we saw, the lions. There was quarrel, baby lions—not baby, very big—but there is no attack. There is no attack. The feelings of affection is there in the animal, ferocious animal. So what is the scientists' reply?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, they are fascinated with this concept, but they cannot explain. They are failing in those aspects.

Prabhupāda: So you are attacking them like this. Choke. (laughs) (laughter) That is good.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's Darwin again. The Darwin . . . his own words. We are quoting his words, and we're going to use it as illustrations in the book as well as in the journal.

Prabhupāda: (reading) "I remember well the time when the thought of the eye made . . ." What is that? ". . . eye made me cold, when the eye made me cold all over, but I have got over this stage of the complaint, and now a small trifling, particulars of structure often make me very uncomfortable. The sight of a feather in a peacock's tail, whenever I crease at the neck . . ."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Make me sick."

Prabhupāda: "Make me sick." What does he mean by this?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He says . . . see, his theory of evolution cannot explain how these eyes are evolved, our eyes. So he felt very uncomfortable just seeing in the beginning these eyes, our eyes. But he says that stage he has overcome to some extent. But still, one particular phenomenon is bothering him very much, that is the eye in the peacock's tail. It is the delicate, nice design with is colorful structure.

Prabhupāda: How it evolved.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, how it evolved. He cannot explain by his theory. So he said whenever he gazed at it, that makes him sick.

Pradyumna: It's the opposite of the devotee.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Rascal. Artificially, how long you'll stand?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually he has . . . he has remarked many important things for us also, especially in his autobiography. We are quoting some of his words saying that when he was young, in his childhood, he was very fascinated by works of art, like reading literature, like works of Shakespeare and poets like Byron, Keats and Shelley. He said he was very fascinated in his childhood, in his . . .

Prabhupāda: No, he was a thoughtful man, undoubtedly.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But when he finished his book, The Theory of Evolution, in his old age, he said he lost all the taste. He said whenever he starts to remember his youthful days, he said, he's almost at the point of nauseation, almost vomiting. Whenever he remembers Shakespeare, Byron and all these things, he says he just begins to vomit.

Prabhupāda: He became too much prosaic. He became prosaic. He could not appreciate poetic.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said he lost all taste in life. He said it's . . . no meaning. He said life becomes no meaning, has no meaning and no purpose. He said he lost all his taste.

Prabhupāda: He regrets.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He regrets.

Hari-śauri: Became hopeless.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So actually that is the result of that theory, because the theory says that we are just combination of some molecules. We come from molecules, and when we finish, we will also go to molecules. So that very philosophy, that very concept, makes people think that way.

Prabhupāda: He was a scientist?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was called naturalist. Yes, he was . . . he had some background in biology. And to counteract his statement we have also another statement from . . . this is from Einstein, but another, from Pasteur. This is very suitable for our purpose. (pause) Einstein was against the . . . what they call the laws of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is the most advanced stage of modern physics or modern chemistry. But they are . . . says that there must be chance. They must introduce a concept of chance in order to explain the nature of the Absolute Truth. In other words, these physical laws, the laws of nature . . .

Prabhupāda: The Absolute Truth is also chance?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In order to write down in the form of mathematical formulas or equations in quantum mechanics this—they call probability—the theory of probability, or chance, should be introduced. But Einstein was against that. That's what he's saying. It says: "The Heisenberg all-tranquilizing philosophy or religion is so delicately contrived that for the time being it provides a gentle pillow for the true believer from which he cannot very easily be aroused. So let him lie there." In other words, those who believe in chance . . . the main concept in quantum mechanics or quantum physics is mainly from this Heisenberg and Bohr. They are well-known physicists. And there is a chapter called "Copenhagen Interpretation." There was a great meeting in Copenhagen about this concept of quantum mechanics, and so they call it "Copenhagen Interpretation." And there the names which were . . . this Heisenberg and Bohr. And they were saying that "Yes, we must accept that there must be chance." So the argument was put forward by these people, but Einstein is against to that idea. So he's saying that, "Those who believe, let them lie there, because the philosophy made by these people serves as a very gentle pillow, very soft. So once people lie there, they cannot be very easily aroused." That's the idea. "But," he said, "that is not a fact."

Hari-śauri: That's like . . . he means it's an easy way out for them to say "chance."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. "Those who don't understand, those who want to just be satisfied with that concept, let them lie there for the time being. But," he said: "that is not a truth."

Prabhupāda: So why the scientists die?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Why the scientists die?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why do not make some arrangement so they'll not die?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, they are making, today they are making an attempt. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Same thing. All the scientists, past, present—everyone is dying.

Indian guest or devotee: They will not die, then they will make themself to society, you know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Here is the . . . here is our last counteracting statement from Pasteur.

Hari-śauri: Shall I read it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: It's a long one. "I have been looking for spontaneous generation for twenty years without discovering it. Now I do not judge it impossible, but what allows you to make it 'the origin of life'? You place matter before life, and you decide that matter has existed for all eternity. How do you know that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists to consider that life has existed during eternity and not matter? You pass from matter to life because your intelligence of today cannot conceive things otherwise. How do you know that in ten thousand years one will not consider it more likely that matter has emerged from life?"

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is exactly what we say, what Prabhupāda says.

Pradyumna: Who's it from?

Hari-śauri: Louis Pasteur.

Prabhupāda: Yes, matter has come from life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We conclude our lecture with this. So they are all silent, (laughter) because a famous scientist said that.

Prabhupāda: So we first of all protested that matter comes from life, not life comes from matter. So when you concluded, they were silent.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, they were almost pin-drop silent, all of them. Normally they ask many questions, this type of lecture. But not this time. There were some at the beginning.

Prabhupāda: So our triumph is ahead.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Sadāpūta told me that he's going to give some lectures in these coming few weeks in Boston.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are together, the two scientists. Our two scientists.

Hari-śauri: Sadāpūta.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Organize . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll do the same thing, same lecture as I gave, similar style. He had all the copies. We made very many colorful slides and transparencies, so that we speak just like any other professional speakers in science.

Prabhupāda: No, you can . . . you have the right to speak. You are qualified scientist, all doctor. They must agree to hear you, cannot deny.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And our mathematician is very good. Also he had some good artistic ideas. He told me that he started some arts.

Prabhupāda: So he's a mathematician and another physist, and you are chemist. So complete science. The pure science is mathematics, physics and chemistry. So our three Ph.D.'s, they are combination of pure science. Nobody can defeat. Mathematics is there, physics is there, chemistry is there. And my sentiment is this, (laughs) I challenge them, "No. Life from life, not matter." So perhaps I challenged first—or anybody—that life from life, not from matter?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda did it.

Gargamuni: I think we should make maybe a few plates just like they have shown the scientists, but a few plates of yourself with some quotations challenging these men.

Prabhupāda: Our another challenge is they have never gone to moon planet. (laughs)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, that's a problem now, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (laughter) See, sometimes when we give lectures . . . some time ago we gave in Gainesville. We were talking about life and matter. Then some people came, and they said . . . they asked that question about the moon thing. So we said we were working on it. And . . .

Prabhupāda: Another my challenge is that moon is beyond the sun. First planet is sun, and then moon. So if the sun is 93,000,000 miles and moon is above the sun 1,600,000, then how they can go to the moon planet in four days? It requires seven and a half months. That is my challenge.

Gargamuni: You mention also that "Sunday, Monday."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Sunday is first. It is the sun. Then Moonday, moon.

Prabhupāda: That is all over the world, Sunday first, Monday second. Ravi, Soma.

Pradyumna: Vahni-maṅgala, Sūrya-maṅgala, Soma-maṅgala in arcanā.

Prabhupāda: In arcanā also the . . .

Pradyumna: Oṁ anvahni-maṅgalāya dāsa-kalātmānenava om arka-maṅgalāya dvadāsa-kalātmānena va om soma-maṅgalāya sodāsa-kalātmānenava.

Prabhupāda: Sūrya-maṅgala above.

Pradyumna: Before, below. Then comes Soma-maṅgala. Soma-maṅgala, last.

Prabhupāda: That's . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Vahni-maṅgala, Sūrya-maṅgala, Soma-maṅgala.

Prabhupāda: So let us do something, (laughs) Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We can meet the any scientist also.

Hari-śauri: We need a Kṛṣṇa conscious astronomer now too.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Then that will be complete.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we started looking some on this astronomy thing, on first about this Sūrya-siddhānta. Sadāpūta is especially interested because he's a mathematician. So normally astronomy is subject of mathematics. So he found this copy in Princeton just recently, last month or so. And there we found that the idea is very similar to modern science in the Sūrya-siddhānta. But we heard that Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhupāda translated Sūrya-siddhānta, but we are not getting a copy of it. So he asked me to look in Calcutta, and some astrologers.

Prabhupāda: He had some disciples, some astronomer. His name can be had from Calcutta.

Pradyumna: Mohinī-mohana?

Prabhupāda: Ah! Mohinī Śāstrī. Mohinī Śāstrī. He was his disciple.

Pradyumna: I went to try . . . he's dead now.

Prabhupāda: He is also. He's passed away.

Pradyumna: And I saw his son. I saw his son. I asked if he had any of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books on jyotir, but he did not. He is practicing jyotir, but not . . .

Prabhupāda: Mohinī Śāstrī's son?

Pradyumna: His son. Sāmba . . .

Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja was a great astronomer.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think that would be our proper research, to look into it.

Prabhupāda: From Sūrya-siddhānta he got the "Bhaktisiddhānta." He got this title, Sūrya-siddhānta. So when he became Vaiṣṇava . . . a Vaiṣṇava he was as a Bhaktisiddhānta.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We saw some translations in English, Sūrya-siddhānta. That was in Library of Congress in Washington. But the translation there was very . . . was not good. It was all wrong interpretations.

Prabhupāda: Who translated?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some English authors, outsiders.

Prabhupāda: He was also astronomer?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think he was from Germany. He knew something about Sanskrit, but translation was just like to criticize those Indian, old Indian astronomers. Something like, very . . . not even using even respectful words, but offensive sometimes, so we didn't bother to go through those books.

Pradyumna: There's copy of Sūrya-siddhānta by Bhaktisiddhānta in London at India Office Library. They have a copy in Bengali.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Bengali?

Pradyumna: Yes, they have original, these. But they do not let . . . they have a funny . . . you cannot copy the whole book with a xerox there. You only can see it and copy by hand. They won't let you xerox. But there's a copy there, Samadhi Press.

Prabhupāda: It must be very old paper.

Pradyumna: Yes, very old.

Prabhupāda: To copy in hand, how long it takes? Very big book?

Pradyumna: No. Not so big. And they also have that paṇḍita who used to live with Bhaktivinoda? They had that tall Sarasvatī, that Sarasvatī Catuspati . . . Bhaktisiddhānta . . . his name was . . . his books are also there, two, three books. They have published jointly from Saraswati Bhavan. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So the scientists could not say anything.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, we said: "We are working on it." We were not giving a definite . . . 'cause we need some proof to satisfy them. So we are . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you are meeting big, big scientists.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are saying that our senses are very incomplete, very limited. So how can we . . .

Prabhupāda: That is our basic principle of knowledge, that every one of us is defective, so you cannot give us complete knowledge; it is not possible. We must receive knowledge from the perfect without defects.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we were bringing that and answering, not answering directly, but saying that whatever we see, whatever we find by experimental science, by these instruments, we see something, but how do we know that . . .? Our matter of receiving knowledge is by itself defective.

Prabhupāda: Defective, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because actually there are many defects in science.

Prabhupāda: So they do not challenge you, that "How your knowledge is perfect?" They do not challenge that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: No, then they can challenge like that, that "If our knowledge is imperfect, how your knowledge is perfect?" If they challenge like that, what you will answer? (break) . . . child is imperfect, but when the child says, "This is spectacle," and if we ask the child, "How do you know?" "Father told me," then it is perfect. He received the knowledge from the father that, "This is spectacle," so although he is imperfect child, he speaks perfect. That is our method. That statement is not imperfect. We cannot be perfect. That's not possible. But if we receive knowledge from the perfect, then our knowledge is perfect. So all right. Take prasādam. It is now . . . (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . was giving us so much difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah, but finally I got it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have received. Got the blue card?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They gave me all kinds of trouble in Washington.

Prabhupāda: What is the reason?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah . . . there is no reason. They're just not . . .

Prabhupāda: Because you were challenging, maybe? But one thing is—I have got experience—because you took immigration from America, it was so difficult. If you had taken immigration outside USA, then it would have been easier. That was my case. When I was trying to get immigration from America, it was practically . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was easier about a few years ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Nowadays it is very difficult for anybody.

Prabhupāda: Oh, to get immigration?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: About four or five years ago, since.

Prabhupāda: But when we tried to get immigration from Montreal, I got it within three months. Of course, the Consulate General was a black man, and he appreciated my books very nicely. He immediately accepted.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In my case, the university sponsored me, saying that there's nobody in the United States that can do the job as I do, which is not true. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: What is that job?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: My job, my work, chemist, the instrument I work. Saying that . . . must be written to the Federal Government, to the Labor Department, saying that there's nobody who would be able to do my job in the United States, qualified. Then the second condition is that by being employed myself, then nobody will be displaced. Any U.S. citizen will not be displaced by my employment. So those two conditions. And it has to be written by the university sponsor.

Prabhupāda: So very difficult, that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they did it. After that, I have to get from India government saying that Indian government has no objection for me to be in the United States. So I have to get from Central Government, from the Minister of Education, and I have to get one certificate from the passport office in Calcutta, Regional Passport Office. And I have to get one from Manipur Government, saying that Manipur Government has no objection for me to be in the United States. And the Manipur Government objected, that they want me back to Manipur. So there was some difficulty at the beginning. So I told them that "No, no, don't say that. Just say that you don't need me." (laughter) So they did it, letter, and I got all those letters. And that letter has to go to Indian Embassy. First of all it has to go to Indian Consulate in San Francisco. And San Francisco has to send a letter of recommendation to Indian Embassy in Washington. And then the Embassy has to send to Federal Government to the Labor Department in Washington, State Department, saying that, "Such and such has this letter."

Prabhupāda: So made it very complicated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And they have to send to Atlanta to the Immigration Office. (laughter) And finally the Immigration Office has to get the final word from Federal Government, from the State Department. Then the interview has to come. So it took almost two years. So I thought that I'll not get it.

Prabhupāda: They made it so complicated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very difficult nowadays. So Rūpānuga Prabhu was telling me that . . . Rūpānuga was telling me in Washington when we had meeting that I will never get it, because they know that I am in Hare Kṛṣṇa. So they're against Hare Kṛṣṇa, the Federal Government, at this stage. So they're thinking that just because of that, I'll never get it.

Prabhupāda: So our . . . the opposition is very strong now?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah, yes. They're trying their best. And personally also from outside, there are some friends, outsiders, but not in the movement, but those who are slightly favorable to the movement. They also have some comments about some of the techniques that we use, some of the methods that we use in saṅkīrtana, in book distribution, things like that.

Prabhupāda: They do not like it?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of them don't. The technique that we use especially during the Christmas time and . . .

Prabhupāda: Why? We cannot invite friend to join?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, they are saying that we go in disguise.

Hari-śauri: Santa Claus suits.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, things like that. In fact, some Indians, they telephoned. In Atlanta there are many Bengalis. They telephone me, and they are saying that, "Why do you do that? You are already well known, and you can sell as you are. You don't need to be disguised. People will appreciate that way better than going something hidden, sort of cheating propensity idea." There's some truth in it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: No, but many groups, they are dressing in Santa Claus.

Hari-śauri: It's traditional.

Gargamuni: And people are more inclined to take your book or gift if it is Santa Claus during that time.

Prabhupāda: So for selling we can take any trick.

Gargamuni: Yes, they all do it. Every . . . in Macy's department stores . . .

Prabhupāda: It is a salesman's trick. That is allowed everywhere. If I can sell more books by some trick, I must take that. That is salesman's trick.

Hari-śauri: All the big department stores, they have Santa Claus.

Gargamuni: They bring their own Santa Claus, and they give away small gifts just to encourage the people to buy big gifts. It's a big racket they have inside the department stores.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact, Rūpānuga Prabhu abandoned completely the idea of this Santa Claus in Washington while we were having our meeting, stayed about a few days. And then he had this telephone call from distance, from outside, saying that, "Tomorrow I'll shoot you. I'll kill you," things like that. They get this telephone call in the temple from outsiders, "If you come like that, in Santa Claus, we'll give you a bullet," like that. So Rūpānuga completely abandoned this idea. So he said: "Tell what we are, be honest, and do as we have been doing." And in fact, devotees are doing, and they got more in the next morning, got more books sold just going as Hare Kṛṣṇa, in Hare Kṛṣṇa dress, instead of going as Santa Claus. So I think . . .

Prabhupāda: So now it is stopped.

Hari-śauri: That was just Christmas time.

Gargamuni: That Santa Claus is only used for two weeks.

Prabhupāda: So from next year we shall not do that.

Hari-śauri: No, if it becomes controversial then there's no point.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, there's many, especially in the newspaper.

Nanda-kumāra: Terrible publicity in the newspapers.

Gargamuni: It came in the Calcutta newspaper, but it was not bad. It was not bad article. It was good article.

Prabhupāda: And what is the . . .? "Do you believe that the Hare Kṛṣṇas, they are in . . .?"

Hari-śauri: "Would you believe three Hare Kṛṣṇas dressed in Santa Claus suits?"

Prabhupāda: ". . . in Santa Claus?"

Gargamuni: I think people were more amused than they were angry.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is amusing.

Gargamuni: Yes. At least the newspaper article in the Statesman was very amusing. It did not criticize, because it mentioned that by wearing these suits we are able to distribute many literatures on God consciousness, which is the real meaning of Christmas. They wrote this in the States . . . so it was favorable.

Nanda-kumāra: In Los Angeles there was some controversy, some trouble. So they had big signs that said "ISKCON," and they had a thing printed up that they put on the bucket that they were collecting with. It said: "Help us put the real spirit of God back into Christmas." And people appreciated that. It stated who we were and stated that . . .

Hari-śauri: Whenever there's some controversy there's always somebody that was dead against and there's always someone who's for you, but the general public, they just observe.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It makes a better point for them instead of making a better point for ourselves.

Prabhupāda: Against party, they take it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So they take that advantage, that's all, because so many people are trying to find out the defects here and there, just little bit, and they want to amplify if they find little.

Prabhupāda: So on the whole, our temple activities are going nice?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no hindrance on account of this counter propaganda?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So far, I know only Atlanta and Washington.

Prabhupāda: No, what is the position, Atlanta and Washington?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Atlanta also, they have difficulty. Balavanta told me just before I left that . . .

Prabhupāda: June.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . we lost an airport in court, book distribution. That was just before I left. So people are trying to be very critical, especially in these different circles, with the New York problem and all these symptoms, becoming very critical. So I think . . .

Prabhupāda: Critical means they are taking this movement now seriously.

Gargamuni: Yes. It is coming up, because their sons and daughters are joining.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Critical means our triumph.

Hari-śauri: Yes. They know we have some substance now.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I think we can pretty much convince the academic circles rather easily. Our philosophy is so strong and powerful that I think we can make a good presentation in the educated circles, especially colleges and universities.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is nice. So that we are trying. We have got already books in the educated circles.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not only books, but good solid presentation, to make . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . . that you are. In our Institute you lecture.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think our journal, the Sa-vijñānam, will be . . .

Prabhupāda: Able to . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: By Prabhupāda's mercy, I think, it will be very useful in making contact with the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So when you are going to publish?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We wanted to print this in about three months, the first volume.

Prabhupāda: And not yet finished?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have the draft, the manuscript here. It needs to be revised. And then we have to contact with the . . .

Prabhupāda: How many pages? How many pages it will be?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it's going to be big. First . . . it's little too big for the first volume. I have a draft here. (gets out draft—groans as if it's heavy)

Prabhupāda: Oh! (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's going to be the first volume, but . . . we're going to put a lot of illustrations, colorful . . .

Prabhupāda: This is wanted.

Hari-śauri: It's like an encyclopedia. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Three big scientists' working. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah . . . Rūpānuga Prabhu is writing an article. This is all about this life and matter mainly. And there will be an article by Rūpānuga Prabhu called the . . . from psychology. He said the . . . some sort nature of consciousness from psychological point of view.

Prabhupāda: He was a student of psychology?

Pradyumna: Yes. Rūpānuga was.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And . . .

Prabhupāda: Our Girirāja also.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Psychology is very important.

Prabhupāda: Girirāja can also write one article.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Satsvarūpa Mahārāja and everybody can contribute articles, some sort of academic article, so we can reach the intellectual class with their format. But I talked about this with several Indians, the Indian scholars. They are . . . they think that it will be very powerful, especially our . . . in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If we add that, then he said it's going to be very much more powerful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. When we bring . . . present scientific basis, it must be powerful. All right, let us . . .

Gargamuni: I think in America that we cannot say that the general public is against us, because the book sales are increasing. It is only when the book sales decrease . . .

Prabhupāda: No . . . so how many pages these are?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We plan to print up to at least hundred pages each volume. But this is already about two hundred pages. So we are going to reduce it little bit so that we can print it in next volume.

Prabhupāda: Life From Life, we are already advertising in our BBT list.

Hari-śauri: Yes. It's already listed there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We plan to have our book about five hundred pages. And we should finish it by fall. We feel it's major work. The difficult part is that establish from science, comparative study . . . and we have finished that. Next stage is . . . it's not very difficult. It's about, they call, fossil, these bones. We're going to say something about it, but that's not much. Then conclusion . . .

Prabhupāda: So you are scientist, devotee and kṣatriya. (laughing) As kṣatriya you'll force, "You must believe this, or I will kill you." (laughter) And as scientist, the convincing argument. And as devotee, Kṛṣṇa will help you. That's all. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). That is Kṛṣṇa's word. "Fight! And remember Me." That's all. Combination kṣatriya, devotee and scientist. Very good combination. Kṣatriya does not know beyond two things—victory or death. No third thing. That is kṣatriya. In a fighting, if I do not gain victory, then I must die. Two things. That is kṣatriya spirit. Whenever there is fight between the two kṣatriya, one must die. That is last word. No compromise. Jarāsandha and Bhīma, fighting for twenty-eight days, in the evening they were friends, but the fighting went on until one is dead. That is kṣatriya's fighting. Where is that spirit now? I think in Europe also there was the knights.

Gargamuni: Chivalry.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Well known for chivalrous behavior. Very gallant.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. One of them must die. That is kṣatriya spirit. No compromise. And it will go on until one is dead. That is chivalry. Chivalry?

Hari-śauri: Chivalry, yes.

Nanda-kumāra: Some of our devotees have got that spirit, some of our men. Keśava has sometimes taken ten men at a time. Once in San Francisco at Ratha-yātrā some men were attacking the Deity, throwing rocks.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? When?

Nanda-kumāra: Keśava was picking . . . in San Francisco about four years back.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Nanda-kumāra: Black men.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Nanda-kumāra: Keśava was picking them up over his head and throwing them across cars. Ten men. He took all of them on, only himself. Finished all of them. He didn't kill them, but he stopped them. He said he felt Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva helping him. But he was fearless.

Prabhupāda: He is robust also, like kṣatriya, Keśava, Karāndhara's brother. All right, you may go. So that . . .?

Gargamuni: In this letter they have asked for six persons, five including yourself. I think if we send a few more by vehicle, by car, vehicles, then we can bring maybe ten or twenty more, and we can have big programs. Five men are not enough.

Prabhupāda: So do that. He'll do.

Gargamuni: So I can give the names. We need at least twenty men.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Okay. Give me the names and passport numbers so that we can get the inner pass.

Prabhupāda: So immediately do it.

Gargamuni: Yes. And you can say: "Five, plus one by plane." 'Cause even if we go, we have to bring books, and you cannot bring so many books on the plane.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, no.

Gargamuni: So we can bring these by road. There is a road there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So arrange for this.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: As many devotees . . .

Gargamuni: From Calcutta to Imphal by road we can go.

Prabhupāda: So he'll take the party. So manage tomorrow.

Gargamuni: And we can carry all the books and everything by road.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do that. (break).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So about a week will be all right, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That will be nice.

Prabhupāda: Our Māyāpur program finishes when?

Gargamuni: The last day is the eighth. And then to Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Eighth March?

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So when you expect to go there?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Right after Māyāpur festival, whenever Śrīla Prabhupāda is ready after Māyāpur festival. Any date will be suitable.

Prabhupāda: So after Vṛndāvana we may not go? What is the wrong there?

Hari-śauri: About a week.

Gargamuni: Yes. 'Cause when does monsoon start here? In June? Starts very early.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah, yes. In June.

Gargamuni: So we have to go before. That gives us . . .

Hari-śauri: We don't have to be in Bombay for any reason though, now, because the opening is not going to take place till late.

Prabhupāda: So if just after Māyāpur festival, if you go to . . .

Gargamuni: From Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: You're going to go to Haridaspur after that? Or no?

Prabhupāda: That we can go later on. This is very important. Manipur we want to make a very strong center, because it is Vaiṣṇava state.

Gargamuni: And kṣatriyas.

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas.

Gargamuni: We can raise an army over there . . .

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Gargamuni: . . . to protect the temples from the demons.

Prabhupāda: So in March, if we go . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be nice in March.

Prabhupāda: . . . by the middle?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, sometime in the middle.

Prabhupāda: Then we can arrange.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The climate, the weather, will be very nice.

Prabhupāda: Very nice. So make that arrangement

Gargamuni: All right. And we can go by road.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You go by road, and we go by plane. Or all of us, we can go by road. Is it possible? No.

Gargamuni: Well, the roads are not so good.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: A flight from here is only 220 rupees. And they're paying for six people, round trip.

Prabhupāda: Five hundred per head.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah, yes. About five hundred, a little less.

Hari-śauri: That's very nice.

Prabhupāda: So make that arrangement. We shall go. Very good.

Gargamuni: And maybe from there, we can . . . on our way by road, we know some people in Shillong. And maybe from Imphal you can go to Shillong for some programs, in Shillong.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: 'Cause that is important city, very big city.

Prabhupāda: Shillong is Assam.

Gargamuni: In Meghalaya.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's now Meghalaya. Yes.

Gargamuni: Now Meghalaya. But it used to be a British capital. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . the children. They're not attacking the children. Otherwise they cannot keep four ferocious animal in a place. They'll fight, and they will kill one another. You were at that time there?

Nanda-kumāra: No. I was in . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So you keep this letter and do the needful. (break) (end)