740330 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740330MW-BOMBAY - March 30, 1974 - 48:03 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Just like bodily action. Now you feel call of nature, so you have to pass urine.

Chandobhai: No, that is correct.

Prabhupāda: That's all

Dr. Patel: Does not attach.

Chandobhai: That action, you're not attached.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: At least, you are, you are . . .

Chandobhai: Udāsī, udāsīno . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: The sum total is how to become guṇātīta. That is bhakti-yoga.

Chandobhai: That is bhakti-yoga. Last stage of bhakti, finally, is said like that, māṁ ca yo avyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate (BG 14.26).

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only guṇātīta position.

Chandobhai: But these qualities are the test of that man.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Chandobhai: After he attains that, these qualities are the test of that man, how we can test that man.

Prabhupāda: No, no, testing, that is also stated. Just like these Europeans, Americans, in their previous position, they had many bad habits. But somehow or other, they have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is their position, guṇātīta. Even by habit they commit something mistake, that is not to be taken into account. Because . . . just hear. Just like a fan is moving, and make the switch off. So the switch is off. That is first consideration. And after the switch being off, the fan is moving, that is no consideration. Do you understand? Because the fan was in force, so you . . . although you have made the switch off, still moving.

Chandobhai: Still moving, yeah.

Prabhupāda: That is not to be taken into account.

Chandobhai: That is not to be . . . yes, correct. Because old, past actions.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Just that that wheel has to move.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: And will stop of its own.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That . . . because the switch is now off, it will stop.

Chandobhai: It will stop.

Prabhupāda: Śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā. Śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā (BG 9.31). Because he has taken to the shelter of Kṛṣṇa, therefore his all past business is finished. Although, due to past habit, sometimes you find some mistake, it is not to be taken. Because this thing will go.

Chandobhai: This thing will go. That is a part of past actions.

Prabhupāda: Very soon. Yes. Very soon.

Chandobhai: Just that wheel has to move and it will stop of its own, because you are not giving further impediment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śaśvad bhavati . . . what is that verse? Śaśvad bhavati dharmātmā. That?

Chandobhai: Śaśvac chāntiṁ adhigacchati, kaunteya pratijānīhi . . . (BG 9.31).

Prabhupāda: Ah. Na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati.

Chandobhai: (quotes Sanskrit in background) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . may be callous. Just like some . . . somebody was asking me . . . that rascal Bharati's article. Who? That one Australian sannyāsī. So this rascal may speak something, but we cannot stop our movement. You see? Our movement is increasing, all over the world in . . . in spite of all criticism. We don't care for that. Because we know that we are following the footsteps of predecessor ācārya, that's all right. We don't mind. And actually, it is happening. Otherwise, within six, seven years, so much progress could not be possible. (break) What is the word, exact?

Chandobhai and Dr. Patel: Ārambha. Ārambha. Ārambha.

Prabhupāda: Ārambha.

Chandobhai: Ārambha . . . (indistinct) . . . ārambha parityāgī. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . it's another meaning is "beginning."

Dr. Patel: Beginning. That's right. Beginning of work.

Prabhupāda: So there is no beginning. Just like it is already taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so why should he take something else? Begin here. That should continue.

Dr. Patel: Ārambha-patavat. Ārambha is a rudanta.

Prabhupāda: And another, ārambhara. That is . . . that is . . . that is humbug, humbugism, ārambhara.

Dr. Patel: Ārambhar means this ārambha.

Prabhupāda: Ārambhar.

Chandobhai: Sarva-ārambha.

Prabhupāda: Ārambha means beginning. So it is already began, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the new thing, you begin this, you begin that? No. No more. That's all right. Final. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21).

Dr. Patel: But even then you have got to eat. You have got to go to W.C . . .

Prabhupāda: That is going on. That is going on . . .

Dr. Patel: On these . . . these ārambha-parityāgī. You don't take any, any cognizance of these works being done by the body. I think, that is to my mind, the exact meaning. I have not been able to grasp and I wanted too.

Prabhupāda: No, that I have already explained. If you have taken seriously Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so something happening due to my past habit, you should not take care of it. It will subside.

Chandobhai: Ārambha.

Dr. Patel: Sarva-ārambha parityāgī. (break)

Prabhupāda: This is the final conclusion of . . . final conclusion, that if anyone has taken devotional service seriously, avyabhicāriṇi, avyabhicāriṇi. Avyabhicāriṇi means as instructed by the spiritual master. If one takes this business very seriously, and he's executing that, then he's guṇātīta. That's all.

Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit)

Chandobhai: Brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham . . . (BG 14.27)

Prabhupāda: Brahma means Vedas. Brahma means . . . there are so many things. So many things. So here brahmaṇaḥ, brahma-jyotir. People are very much impersonalist, they think realization of brahma-jyotir is final. To, just to reply them, this is, this śloka is: brahmaṇo aham pratiṣṭha. Wherefrom this jyoti's coming? This is very common sense. A jyoti does . . . just like this jyoti, this clearness, no darkness, wherefrom it is coming? Everyone knows it is coming from the sun. Without this sun, why at night there was no such jyoti? Because the sun is rising, therefore this jyoti has come. Similarly . . .

Dr. Patel: (talking in background)

Prabhupāda: Now, why don't you hear?

Dr. Patel: I am hearing.

Prabhupāda: Why not . . . just hear. It is very important point, that jyoti, it must come through some source.

Chandobhai: Jyoti has . . . jyoti has to come through source, correct.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is confirmed in the Brahmā-saṁhitā that yasya prabhā. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagadaṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam (Bs. 5.40). This creation, all the whole creation, even this material, that is depending on the brahma-jyotir. Therefore it is said, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma: everything is depending on the brahma-jyotir. And that is confirmed also in the Bhagavad-gītā: mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). This mat-sthāni means . . .

Chandobhai: Within the Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Within the Brahman. And this Brahman is the effulgence of body of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: That is . . . Sahajanand Swami says continually that you must always . . . you must never think that Kṛṣṇa is without a body.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: He always says that you must never think that Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . is without body.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Without body there cannot be anything, and Kṛṣṇa had body, and all this is the brahma-jyotir. (break) . . . pratiṣṭha.

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . .

Chandobhai: Amṛtasyaiva . . .

Prabhupāda: Amṛtasya.

Dr. Patel: That the Brahman is amṛta.

Prabhupāda: Amṛta. Brahman. That is confirmed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So the Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān, they are, these, one and the same. But it is the person's realization. Now, common man, they can understand what is this sunshine, but they cannot know what is the sun globe or what is within the sun globe.

Chandobhai: What is within the sun globe. Yes, correct.

Prabhupāda: So those who are satisfied only brahma-jyotir, their knowledge is not yet perfect. They do not know wherefrom the brahma-jyotir comes, who is the source of brahma-jyotir.

Chandobhai: So He has stated here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . as Paramātmā, He's kṣetra-jña of everybody.

Dr. Patel: So He knows the working of everybody.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānam yat taj jñānaṁ mataṁ mama (BG 13.3).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Tat kṣetraṁ yac ca yādṛk yad-vikāri yataś ca yat, sa ca yat . . . (BG 13.4). (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . prajña. This point must be clearly understood. Then you go further. A kṣetra . . . this body is kṣetra. Kṣetra means "the field of activities." Just like a kṛṣana works in his field, and he reaps his result. As he works, he gets the result. Similarly, this body is kṣetra, and we are working with this body, and we are reaping the result. Karmaṇa daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Karmaṇa. So this is the kṣetra and kṣetra-jña. Now . . . and next He says that, "I am also kṣetra-jña. I am also kṣetra-jña." How He's kṣetra-jña? Because He's Paramātmā.

Dr. Patel: He's the presiding . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . therefore there are two kṣetra-jñas: one, the jīvātmā, and one, the Paramātmā. The Māyāvādīs do not accept it. They say the only kṣetra-jñaḥ. Jivātmā and Paramātmā the same.

Chandobhai: Dvau suparṇā . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is confirmed by the Upaniṣads.

Chandobhai: Dvau suparṇā are there . . .

Prabhupāda: There are two birds.

Dr. Patel: In Bhagavad-gītā it is said.

Prabhupāda: Two birds, two birds. Yes. Two birds. Bhagavad-gītā, it is clearly said. Anumantā upadraṣṭā. One kṣetra-jña is anumantā and upadraṣṭā; another kṣetra-jña is not anumantā. He's simply enjoying.

Dr. Patel: But that is . . . dvāv imau puruṣau loke kṣaraś cākṣara . . . kṣaraḥ sarvāṇi bhūtāni kūṭa-stho 'kṣara ucyate (BG 15.16). Uttamaḥ puruṣas tv anyaḥ paramātmety . . . (BG 15.17) (break) . . . uttama puruṣa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṣara and akṣara means conditioned soul and liberated soul. Those who are in the Vaikuṇṭha world, spiritual world, they are all liberated souls. And those who are within this material world, they are conditioned souls. So . . .

Dr. Patel: Shall I read again.

Prabhupāda: Now, let us finish. So this should be clearly understood, that in this body both the Paramātmā and jīvātmā living.

Dr. Patel: Stay together, live together.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But the Māyāvādīs, they says there is no jīvātmā. The same thing, Paramātmā. That is not.

Dr. Patel: Those two birds are living on the same tree.

Prabhupāda: That is the difference. That is the difference. Paramātmā and jīvātmā, what is the difference? Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. I . . . this is very practical, that I am the jīvātmā. I am living in this body. I know the business of my body, pains and pleasures, but I do not know what is the pains and pleasures of your body. You also do not know what is the pains and pleasures . . . therefore we are individual. But Paramātmā, because He's there, He knows what is your pains and pleasure, what is my pains and pleasure. Not only you, but all living entities. That is Paramātmā. So those who are falsely claiming that, "I am Paramātmā," this is the test, "Whether you are cognizant of everything?"

Dr. Patel: Right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But you cannot falsely claim that "I am Paramātmā," or "I am God." Whether you have got this all-pervading knowledge? This is the only test to the pretenders that he is God, he is Paramātmā.

Dr. Patel: But that is . . . they will say that kṣetra-jña, not kṣetra. Mahā-bhūtāny ahaṅkāro buddhir avyaktam eva . . . (BG 13.6)

Prabhupāda: Now He comes to the material elements.

Dr. Patel: Icchā dveṣaḥ sukhaṁ duḥkhaṁ . . . (BG 13.7).

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . that is . . .

Dr. Patel: Why they should be in great . . .? I don't understand that.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Dr. Patel: I mean, these are all mahā-bhūtāny ahaṅkāra buddhiḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: But icchā dveṣaḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Icchā . . . the . . . (break) Mind is also material.

Dr. Patel: Saṅghātaś cetanā dhṛtiḥ (BG 13.7).

Prabhupāda: Now, yes. Cetanā, intelligence, everything, everything. These are all . . . these are all material.

Dr. Patel: That is, what do you call, the liṅga-śarīra.

Prabhupāda: But the . . . some foolish people accept the intelligence, mind, as spirit.

Dr. Patel: No, no, I understand not.

Chandobhai: That is Sāṅkhya philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Chandobhai: That is Sāṅkhya philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Etat kṣetraṁ samāsena sa-vikāram . . . now, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir . . . (BG 13.8). (break)

Prabhupāda: That is the first thing, ācāryopāsanam. But these rascals, they do not do that. They have no ācārya; still, they write comment on Bhagavad-gītā. You see? This is the rascaldom. Ācāryopāsanam. One must go . . . ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Unless one accepts ācārya, he does not know anything.

Dr. Patel: And then amānitvam adambhitvam . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand one word please. One word, if you understand, your life will be successful. Don't go further. Ācāryopāsanam. This is the very important thing.

Dr. Patel: Every, every word is important, Bhagavad-gītā. Why one word?

Prabhupāda: Yes. So ācārya, who is ācārya? Then next question will be: who is ācārya? Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Those who are coming the ācārya-sampradāya. Śrī-sampradāya, Rudra-sampradāya, the four sampradāyas. So unless . . . sampradāya vihīnā ye mantrās te viphalāḥ . . . (Padma Purāṇa). Unless one comes to the ācārya, disciplic succession, whatever nonsense he speaks, it is all useless. This is the most important thing, ācāryopāsanam.

Dr. Patel: Śaucaṁ sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ. Again I read, eh?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Dr. Patel: Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam, ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ . . . (BG 13.8).

Prabhupāda: So amānitvam. Instead of becoming amānitvam, these Māyāvādīs say: "I am God." Just see. This is amānitvam. He falsely claims that, "I have become God now." Does it mean amānitvam? And here, Vaiṣṇava says, gopī-bhartuḥ pāda-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). This is amānitvam. This is amān . . . "I am servant of the servant." And these rascals are claiming, "I am God." This is amānitvam.

Dr. Patel: Adambhitvam.

Prabhupāda: How much dambhi, proud, they are. They are claiming to be God.

Dr. Patel: Ahiṁsā.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Ahiṁsā means he's envious of Kṛṣṇa. He's envious. Not ahiṁsā. His hiṁsā begins that, "Why Kṛṣṇa should alone be God? I am also God."

Dr. Patel: Kṣāntiḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: So the hiṁsā begins from the Supreme. So all negative. These Māyāvādīs, they are hiṁsā, they are proud, they have no sense of what is amānitvam. This is Māyāvāda philosophy.

Dr. Patel: Kṣāntir ārjavam.

Prabhupāda: And there cannot be śanti. Because . . . there cannot be. Śanti must be there.

Dr. Patel: Kṣānti.

Prabhupāda: Śanti.

Dr. Patel: Kṣā, Kṣā.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā, kṣānti. Kṣānti means toleration. Toleration. But . . .

Dr. Patel: Ārjavam.

Prabhupāda: They, they do not allow Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore there is no kṣānti, no toleration.

Dr. Patel: Ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ. Śaucam sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ, indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam . . .

Prabhupāda: Śaucam. Śaucam . . . śaucam means yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bāhyābhyantaram śuciḥ. Because he does not know what is puṇḍarīkākṣam, he does not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's not śaucam. This is śaucam.

Dr. Patel: Sthairyam.

Prabhupāda: Sthairyam means fixed-up: kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). That is sthairyam.

Dr. Patel: Ātma-vinigrahaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ātma-vinigrahaḥ. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam anahaṅkāram eva ca.

Prabhupāda: Anahan . . . this is you, first-class ahaṅkāra, that "I have become God."

Dr. Patel: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Asaktir ana . . . (break) . . . putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu, nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam . . .

Prabhupāda: So they have no, mean, detachment for putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. They talk very big, big words, but attached to the putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. (laughs) This is not knowledge; this is ignorance. The test is there, whether you have become detached from putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. If not, you are in ignorance. You may talk very, very big, big words. That has no meaning. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu, mayi cānanya-yogena . . . (BG 13.10).

Prabhupāda: Ah. Again the same thing. The basic principle is mayi cānanya-yogena bhakti-yogena . . .

Dr. Patel: Bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī vivikta-deśa-sevitvam . . . (BG 13.11).

Prabhupāda: This is . . . this is the basic principle. Without this, everything is false. Everything is false.

Dr. Patel: Vivikta-deśa-sevitvam aratir jana-saṁsadi, adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ tattva artha . . .

Chandobhai: Tattva-jñānārtha . . .

Dr. Patel: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Artha-darśanam.

Dr. Patel: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. When you have perfect knowledge of the tattva-jñāna.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is tattva-jñāna. This is jñāna. This is jñāna. Basic principle of jñāna is ananya-bhakti-yogena. That is the basic principle of jñāna. Then other things will automatically come.

Dr. Patel: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā.

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . therefore in other place in Bhāgavata: harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one is not pure devotee of the Lord, he has no good qualification. That is not possible. Because here is also same thing. The basic principle is devotion. If that is lacking, then all this show, humbug, it has no meaning.

Dr. Patel: No, that is, we have said about the jñāna . . . (break) . . . paraṁ brahma na sat . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, who is that paraṁ brahma? That Kṛṣṇa. Because Arjuna says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma . . . (BG 10.12).

Dr. Patel: Brahman means Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Brahman is jyoti.

Prabhupāda: No, paraṁ brahma. Brahmajyoti, that is not paraṁ brahma. Paraṁ brahma is Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Paraṁ brahma is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ brahma is Kṛṣṇa. Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So paraṁ brahman is Kṛṣṇa. The jñāna means one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he has got knowledge. Otherwise he's a rascal. That's all. Maybe a big rascal or small rascal.

Dr. Patel: Like me.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) But anyone who does not know . . . that is confirmed in another place: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). That is the sign. When one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, then it is to be understood that he's really wise. Otherwise . . .

Dr. Patel: Anādi mat-paraṁ brahma na sat asat tad ucyate. Neither sat or asat. Neither existence or nonexistence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: What do you mean by sat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sat and asat. Asat . . . cause and effect of this material world.

Dr. Patel: Cause and effect. Not existence and nonexistence.

Prabhupāda: No.

Dr. Patel: Cause and effect.

Prabhupāda: Cause and effect. The mahat-tattva . . . mahat-tattva is cause, and this cosmic manifestation is the effect. So beyond that. Beyond that. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is said: mahat-pādam. The mahat-tattva is lying at His lotus feet. Samāśritā ye pada-pallavaṁ plavaṁ mahat-pādam (SB 10.14.58). Mahat-tattva is lying on the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: Mahat-tattva is nothing but the beginning of the . . .

Prabhupāda: It is the total, sum total of material energy.

Dr. Patel: Of cosmic energy, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is mahat-tattva.

Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sarvataḥ pāṇi-pādaṁ tat sarvato 'kṣi-śiro-mukham, sarvataḥ śrutimal loke . . . (BG 13.14).

Prabhupāda: Now, we are, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So the my eyes, my hands, my legs, that is Kṛṣṇa's. You see? This is sarvataḥ pāṇi-pāda. So if we understand this philosophy, that these eyes . . .

Dr. Patel: Belong to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: . . . these . . . belong to Kṛṣṇa. This hand belongs to Kṛṣṇa. But now under . . . we are under the . . . "This is my hand. This is my eye. This is my body." This is illusion.

Dr. Patel: Now this "my" should belong to Kṛṣṇa. Then everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Everything belongs . . .

Prabhupāda: Everything belongs.

Dr. Patel: Ego must belong to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, so everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, with my hands, with my legs, with my eyes, I cannot do anything except serving Kṛṣṇa. How we can do? If the eyes belong to Kṛṣṇa, then how the eyes can be used for other purpose? This is real knowledge. That is explained in the Nārada Pañcarātra: sarvopādhi vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). That is nirmala. Nirmala eyes. Brahma-bhūta. That is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20).

Dr. Patel: Sarvendriya guṇābhāsaṁ sarva-indriya vivarjitam . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now . . .

Dr. Patel: . . . asaktaṁ sarva-bhūteṣu nirguṇaṁ guṇa-bhoktṛ ca (BG 13.15).

Prabhupāda: He . . . he has got indriyas, indriya. Just like in the Vedas it is stated, apāṇi-pādo javano gṛhīta. "He has no hands and legs, but He takes whatever you offer." So now, that, as soon as this word is there, that "He accepts whatever you offer," that means He has got hand. Indriyābhāsa. Indriyābhāsa. But not this indriya, the three-feet hand. Suppose if you offer me something, you are three feet away, I cannot take it. But Kṛṣṇa is in Vaikuṇṭha. If you offer Him, oh, He can accept. Otherwise . . . He says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). Now He is in Vaikuṇṭha and Goloka Vṛndāvana. We cannot calculate where He is. How He's taking? This is material calculation. But He has got such a hand that anywhere you live, He can accept. Otherwise, if He has no hand . . . therefore, "He has no hand" means He has no this little hand like me.

Dr. Patel: He has got no . . .

Prabhupāda: Unlimited hand. Unlimited hand. That, that you cannot . . . "How Kṛṣṇa have body, this?" The Māyāvādī philosophers think, "How there can be body? If He has a body, then He has limited potency." He cannot understand that although He has got body, He has got unlimited potency. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. That is different from this body. Because he understands that, "There cannot be any body different from this," they say nirākāra. Not nirākāra. He has got body. He has got senses. He has got hand. But not like you.

Dr. Patel: Sarvendriya-guṇābhāsaṁ sarvendriya-vivarjitam . . . (BG 13.15).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarvendriya-vivarjitam means these rascal hands, legs, are vivarjitam. But He has got His particular type of hands and legs. That they cannot understand. They, their limited knowledge does not allow them to know that there can be another hand which can be extended millions and millions of miles. That they cannot understand. Therefore avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanu . . . (BG 9.11). They think, "Kṛṣṇa is like us. How He can be God?"

Dr. Patel: Asaktaṁ sarva-bhṛc caiva nirguṇaṁ guṇa-bhoktṛ ca.

bahir antaṣ ca bhūtānām

acaraṁ caram eva ca

sūkṣmatvāt tad avijñeyaṁ

dūrasthaṁ cāntike ca tat

(BG 13.16)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dūrasthaṁ antike ca. Dūrasthaṁ. Nobody knows where is Goloka Vṛndāvana, how many miles away. Dūrastha. They cannot calculate. But antike ca, He's within. He can accept your service.

Dr. Patel: Avibhaktaṁ ca bhūteṣu vibhaktam iva ca sthitam (BG 13.17).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Avibhakt . . . the Paramātmā, He is distributed. That does not mean He has become many. He's still one. Avibhaktam. Although, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61), you cannot calculate, "Now īśvara is now divided, so His original position is gone."

Dr. Patel: Bhūta-bhartṛ ca taj jñeyaṁ grasiṣṇu prabhaviṣṇu ca.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Jyotiṣām api taj jyotis . . .

Prabhupāda: Here . . . jyotiṣām api taj jyotiḥ.

Dr. Patel: Jñānam jñeyam jñāna-gamyaṁ . . .

Prabhupāda: This, this . . . we have got jyoti calculation of this sun. But the sun is only reflection of the brahma-jyotir. Dr. Patel: Jyotiṣām api taj jyotis tamasaḥ param ucyate.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ jñāna-gamyaṁ hṛdi sarvasya viṣṭhitam (BG 13.18).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Iti kṣetraṁ tathā jñānaṁ jñeyaṁ coktuṁ samāsataḥ, mad-bhakta etad vijñāya . . . (BG 13.19).

Prabhupāda: Mad-bhakta. Not rascals. The mad-bhakta can explain these things, not others.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Now, now conclusion.

Prabhupāda: Is it clear?

Dr. Patel: Yes. Absolutely. I am a rascal. (Prabhupāda laughs) That is, I am reading.

Prabhupāda: You are a bhakta. How you can be rascal?

Dr. Patel: But sometimes I become. Prakṛtiṁ ca . . .

prakṛtiṁ puruṣaṁ caiva

viddhy anādī ubhāv api

vikārāṁś ca guṇaṁś caiva

viddhi prakṛti-sambhavān

(BG 13.20)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel:

karya-kāraṇa-kartṛtve

hetuḥ prakṛtir ucyate

puruṣaḥ sukha-duḥkhānāṁ

bhoktṛtve hetur ucyate

(BG 13.21)

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: This is very important. Puruṣaḥ sukha-duḥkhānāṁ bhoktṛtve . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, as you, as you . . . just like police. Police will punish you. You will have to suffer. But it is due to your criminal action police has arrested you. You cannot make police responsible for your suffering.

Dr. Patel: And here policeman is jīva, no? That is what my difficulty is.

Prabhupāda: No. The prakṛti . . . what is that?

Dr. Patel: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . . . (BG 13.22).

Prabhupāda: Ah, that puruṣa means jīvātmā, jīvātmā.

Dr. Patel: Jivātmā, not Paramātmā. That's right.

Prabhupāda: Jivātmā is within this body, prakṛti. This is prakṛti, material nature, jīvātmā. So as you infect the quality of the prakṛti, you become, what is called, entangled.

Dr. Patel: And highest line comes in.

Prabhupāda: You become . . . I am explaining. You become entangled. Now, as soon as you become entangled . . . suppose you become a dog. Now you suffer.

Dr. Patel: But when the dog is there, he does not think he's suffering. He's just like that pig.

Prabhupāda: That is illusion. That is called moha, moha. One is suffering. Everyone is suffering. Suppose a big man, a minister, or the prime minister, or the chief minister, he's also suffering.

Chandobhai: Everybody's suffering.

Prabhupāda: But he's thinking, "Now I am prime minister." That is illusion. Nobody, nobody is here peaceful. Everyone is suffering, because threefold miseries. That is the conditional life. After all, Kṛṣṇa says that, "If you are thinking that you are very happy, that you must know at least these things: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9)." How you can get out of it? You'll die. Nobody wants to die.

Dr. Patel: Body dies.

Prabhupāda: But these rascals, they do not . . . say, "Death is natural." But why don't you like to die? That is suffering. But he thinks, "No, no, it is good." But as soon as I say: "I shall kill you," "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't kill me. Don't kill me." He does not like to die, but . . .

Chandobhai: Very helplessly.

Prabhupāda: Helplessly. Just like . . .

Dr. Patel: I mean, who dies?

Prabhupāda: Now, again you are . . .

Dr. Patel: Because he has got this . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . identification is all right, but you must come to the practical point. Then don't treat any patient. You can say: "Who is suffering?"

Dr. Patel: "Body."

Prabhupāda: "Who is suffering . . .?"

Dr. Patel: We are treating the body.

Prabhupāda: "There is no need of taking medicine."

Dr. Patel: I am treating the body. I am not in the . . . you are treating the . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That body is there, and you are absorbed in body. Therefore there is suffering. You may say that, "I am not this body, and I am just this body," but when the body's going to be killed, you become afraid. Because you are absorbed. Why go beyond this practical point?

Dr. Patel: Ācchā.

Prabhupāda: Just like everyone knows that you are not the motorcar. Everyone knows it. But as soon as there is any breakage in the nice motorcar, "Oh, I am gone." Why? Where you gone? You are not motorcar. But because you are absorbed in the sense that, "It is my car, my car, my car," you have become absorbed. So any accident to the motorcar, you become unhappy. But everyone knows you are not motorcar. Why you become unhappy? This is called māyā. So you are not completely free. So, so long we are in this body, so the sufferings of the body is there. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata, "Just tolerate." Just tolerate.

mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya

śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ

āgamāpāyino 'nityās

tāṁs titikṣasva . . .

(BG 2.14)

You don't be mad, but, because "My motorcar is now broken," or, "There is some accident in my house . . ." But you are not house, neither you are motorcar. Everyone knows that. But why you have become so much affected? There . . . therefore, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. You have to tolerate.

Dr. Patel: Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān . . . (BG 13.22).

Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. You are suffering because you have associated with a particular type of material quality. Just like you have associated with some infectious disease. Now you are suffering. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo' sya. Why you affect . . .? Therefore one should remain always in sattva-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa. What is that verse in the Bhāgavata?

naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu

nityaṁ bhāgavataḥ-sevayā

bhāgavaty uttama-śloke

bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī

(SB 1.2.18)

tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ

kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye

ceta etair anāviddhaṁ

sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati

(SB 1.2.19)

We have to go the platform of sattva-guṇa. Therefore these boys are being trained how to become in the sattva-guṇa. You cannot become a wise man . . . you remain in the rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, and you become a wise man, that is not possible. You must suffer, so long you are infected with rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. So this is the process. Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ (SB 1.2.20). Again, bhagavad-bhakti. If you remain in the bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, then you become prasanna-manaso, sattva-guṇa. Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasidati.

Dr. Patel: Upadraṣṭānumantā ca . . . (BG 13.23). (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . ātmā, Paramātmā. Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . paramātmeti cāpy ukto dehe 'smin puruṣaḥ paraḥ.

Prabhupāda: This is . . . and these Māyāvādī rascals say that the Paramātmā and jīvātmā are the same.

Dr. Patel:

ya evaṁ vetti puruṣaṁ

prakṛtiṁ ca guṇaiḥ saha

sarvathā vartamāno 'pi

sa bhūyo na 'bhijāyate

(BG 13.24)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sarvarthā vartamānaḥ means whatever action we do . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . yoga. But when I come to know that I am eternal part and parcel and engage Myself in the service of the Lord, then I am liberated. Even one may call me, "You are bhaṅgī, you are camara, you are this or that," but I do not belong to these things. I belong . . . gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). That's all.

Dr. Patel: Now, these, these two lines have the . . . (break) . . . anye sāṅkhyena yogena karma-yogena cāpare (BG 13.25).

Prabhupāda: Yes. This sāṅkhya-yoga . . . sāṅkhya-yoga does not mean this atheist Kapila sāṅkhya-yoga. There is another Kapila; he is imitation. That is Kapila, Devahūti-putra Kapila. That sāṅkhya-yoga. Sāṅkhya-yoga. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Third Canto.

Dr. Patel: No, karma-yogena.

Prabhupāda: Karma-yogena also. Karma-yoga and . . .

Dr. Patel: Any work you do for the sake of Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . is karma-yoga. And yogena means?

Prabhupāda: Yoga means to connect with Kṛṣṇa. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa-sambandha. That is yoga. (break) . . . in touch with Kṛṣṇa, this Hare Kṛṣṇa. Always in touch. Because the Kṛṣṇa's name and Kṛṣṇa is nondifferent. So if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then you are always in Kṛṣṇa, with Kṛṣṇa. Even while walking on the beach, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa means we are walking with Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: And we are reading this Bhagavad-gītā. Here, we are chanting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also.

Dr. Patel: Chanting, no?

Prabhupāda: That is also chanting. Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel:

yāvat sañjāyate kiñcit

sattvaṁ sthāvara-jaṅgamam

kṣetra-kṣetrajña-saṁyogāt

tad viddhi bharatarṣabha

(BG 13.27)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . . .

Prabhupāda: The whole world . . . that is another way explained:

apareyam itas tu . . .

viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā

jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho

yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat

(BG 7.5)

Why . . . why this whole world is going on, cosmic manifestation? The kṣetra-kṣetra-jña. Because the kṣetra is there, matter, and the spirit soul is there, therefore the whole world is going on. Why the trees, mean, living? Because the kṣetra is there.

Dr. Patel: Kṣetra-jña.

Prabhupāda: Kṣetra-jña, yes. Kṣetra is also there; kṣetra-jña is also there.

Dr. Patel: Kṣetra is the tree, and kṣetra-jña is . . .

Prabhupāda: This dog is also. The kṣetra is there, kṣetra-jña is there. Similarly . . .

Dr. Patel: Samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu . . .

Prabhupāda: Samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means the kṣetra-jña is there.

Dr. Patel: Tiṣṭhantaṁ parameśvaram . . . (BG 13.28)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Vinaśyatsv avinaśyantaṁ . . .

Prabhupāda: There is also Paramātmā. It does not mean because he's dog, there is no Paramātmā. There is also Paramātmā. Because Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa does not discriminate that, "I shall not remain within the body of dog. I shall remain within the body of a brāhmaṇa only." No. Sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. This is samatā, that . . . because a devotee can understand that Kṛṣṇa is there within the dog, within the cat. Simi . . .

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

(BG 5.18)

He knows that in everywhere, in every body, there is the Paramātmā. And ātmā also. Then samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu.

Dr. Patel:

samaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

tiṣṭhantaṁ parameśvaram

vinaśyatsv avinaśyantaṁ

yaḥ paśyati sa paśyati

(BG 13.28)

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Dr. Patel:

samaṁ paśyan hi sarvatra

samavasthitam īśvaram

na hinasty ātmanātmānaṁ

tato yāti parāṁ gatim

(BG 13.29)

Prabhupāda: That, that samata, he knows that Paramātmā is everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ (Bs. 5.35). But that does not mean paramāṇu has become Paramātmā, daridra has become Nārāyaṇa. This is rascaldom. This is rascaldom (laughing). Daridra is daridra. But you know, within the daridra there is Nārāyaṇa. That is another thing. But that does not mean Nārāyaṇa has become daridra. This is rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: (Gujarati)

Indian man (3): You can't say it is no good. Nārāyaṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: This rascaldom is going on. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. What is this nonsense? Nārāyaṇa has become daridra?

Dr. Patel: No, but my one point is there. You may call me a fool even, I don't mind. But everything is covered by God. Even so in daridra, that is covered by God.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is rascaldom. Everything is covered by God, but that does not mean everything is God.

Dr. Patel: I did not say everything is God. I said everything is . . .

Prabhupāda: That everyone knows. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). That is not a very new thing.

Dr. Patel: So, so daridra is also covered by . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, without . . . without God, there cannot be anything.

Dr. Patel: There should be an ounce of Nārāyaṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: That does not mean . . . that I have already explained. But that does not mean he has become Nārāyaṇa.

Dr. Patel: I don't say he has become Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: But they, they say daridra-nārāyaṇa. They say, the rascals say like that.

Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . that difficulty. All rascals, they have become leaders. They have no knowledge, and they become leaders. Therefore the whole world is in chaos.

Dr. Patel:

prakṛtyaiva ca karmāṇi

kriyamāṇāni sarvaśaḥ

yaḥ paśyati tathātmānam

akartāraṁ sa paśyati

(BG 13.30)

We should understand that we cannot do anything.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa . . . Doctor Shah. Mr. Shah? Kṛṣṇa says . . .

Dr. Shah: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . that evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Unless one comes to the paramparā system, he cannot understand the knowledge. But these rascals, without in the paramparā system, they interpret.

Dr. Shah: According to you, how many paramparās are there?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Shah: How many paramparās are there?

Prabhupāda: No, no. How many . . . don't take many. Take one.

Dr. Shah: One, yes.

Prabhupāda: Now, Kṛṣṇa is speaking to Arjuna. That is a fact.

Dr. Shah: Correct. Oh, that way also, . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So as Arjuna understands, you take that. But all the rascals, they are going to understand Kṛṣṇa which is not spoken by Arjuna. Kṛṣṇa . . . Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Do they accept that?

Dr. Patel: They must accept.

Prabhupāda: Then why they should comment? Poke them in the . . . when these rascal and does not know anything about Kṛṣṇa, why should you write comment on Bhagavad-gītā? Let him do his own business. Why you should come here? That is our protest.

Dr. Patel: Humari pravritt me . . . in our culture . . . everyone has got a right to comment.

Prabhupāda: Just like he's a medical man. He's doing something. If a storekeeper comes, "Doctor Shah, aisa kijiye (do like this)," what is this nonsense? What you are? You cannot say . . . he's a lawyer. If I say: "Mr. Lawyer, why don't you accept this law?" Will he accept?

Chandobhai: All the great ācāryas have commented it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Chandobhai: Madhvācārya . . .

Prabhupāda: You, you, you . . . yes. That you should follow. That you should follow. You should follow Rāmānujācārya. Yes. Ācārya . . . ācāryopāsanam. Even Śaṅkarācārya. Yes. Those who have been accepted ācāryas, then . . . then you accept. But how one becomes ācārya? When he comes to the paramparā system. He cannot become all of a sudden ācārya without caring for . . .

Chandobhai: There are so many commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā, Upaniṣads, Vedānta . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like this Dayānanda. He did not care for anyone. He became ācārya. He started.

Chandobhai: As I understand, or I am given to understand, is that . . . (break) . . . and they accepted it . . .

Prabhupāda: The . . . (break) That is not required now. For the time being. That is not required now. (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . bhāvam eka-stham anupaśyati, tata eva ca vistāraṁ brahma sampadyate tadā (BG 13.31).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because . . . just these elements, material elements, bhūta, they are Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore one who knows Kṛṣṇa, he does not take anything as material, because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So Kṛṣṇa's energy means . . . what is called?

Dr. Shah: Property.

Prabhupāda: No, there is a verse. Śakti-śaktimator abhedaḥ. Abhedaḥ. Śakti means energy, and the śaktimān . . . that . . . śaktimān is called śaktimat. So because it comes from the śaktimān, śaktimān, the all spirit, therefore those who are very advanced devotee, for, in their vision, there is nothing material.

Chandobhai: There is no separation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is nothing. Abheda. Because it is admitted that bhinnā prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4). So this is śakti. And śaktimat is Kṛṣṇa. So when it is emanating from Kṛṣṇa . . . therefore it is called inferior. Inferior. Inferior. He does not say . . .

Indian man (3): Because it is not possible without śaktimān.

Prabhupāda: Śaktimān. (break)

Devotee: ". . . bodies, he attains to the Brahman conception. Thus he sees that beings are expanded everywhere." That's the same verse. But what does this mean, "Thus he sees that beings are expanded everywhere"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere there is living being. (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . avyayaḥ, śarīra-stho 'pi kaunteya na karoti na lipyate (BG 13.32).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the . . . śarīra-stho 'pi. Because it is said Paramātmā and jīvātmā, they are, both of them are in this body, that does not mean the Paramātmā has become like jīvātmā or jīvātmā has become Paramātmā. This is nonsense. Although śarīra-stha, he doesn't . . . he's not affected by the pains and pleasures of this body. That, that is, that is the defect of this daridra-nārāyaṇa philosophy, that although He has entered the body of a daridra, it does not mean He's affected by the quality of the daridra. But they are thinking, "Oh, Nārāyaṇa has come as daridra. Let me give something." This is their philosophy. That means Nārāyaṇa is now affected with this daridrata. (break)

Dr. Patel: Annakūṭa (Gujarati). (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . we do not feed anybody?

Dr. Patel: You may be feeding, but others are throwing it away. That is why they have said daridra-nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . others are throwing, others are doing this, this . . . that is not considered.

Dr. Patel: But they have not seen you doing it, you see . . .

Prabhupāda: Dari . . . why not first of all offer to real Nārāyaṇa and then distribute to the daridras? (break) First of all try to understand that . . . just like we have got prasāda distribution program. So . . . but that does not mean that we shall say: "We are feeding daridra-nārāyaṇa." We are offering to Nārāyaṇa and then feeding to the . . .

Dr. Patel: They are . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: No, no. You do not talk. You do not know. You do not know. Don't talk. Please stop. I know very well, better than you.

Dr. Patel: How? Tell me. Explain.

Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can know? You take it—because you do not know, you take it from me.

Dr. Patel: But I, I, I can't take it without you explain me. How I take it? Tell me.

Prabhupāda: That brain will require three hundred years. Your brain having developed, then you will understand.

Dr. Patel: I have developed. Brain is already developed fifty . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: No, you said immediately that, "What is the use of offering Nārāyaṇa in the temple . . ."

Dr. Patel: I did not say that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you said.

Dr. Patel: I did . . . no, you have misunderstood. I said . . . I won't submit to wrong things. I will submit to right thing.

Prabhupāda: No, no. And that . . . but you do not know what is right thing. That is your fault.

Dr. Patel: Daridra-nārāyaṇa is a fact. In India. And I am going to uphold it.

Prabhupāda: Now, you see, you are prescribing that, "Why they are offering in the temple?" "Why you are offering in the the temple? Why not the daridras?"

Dr. Patel: You must offer in the temple. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . does not mean his nārāyaṇa-seva is null and void because he cannot distribute to the poor.

Dr. Patel: No, no, that I did not say.

Prabhupāda: Try to understand first this.

Chandobhai: (to Dr. Patel) Hah, Doctor please be quiet.

Prabhupāda: His nārāyaṇa-seva is there.

Dr. Patel: I understand him.

Prabhupāda: You will not allow anyone to speak, but you talk nonsense.

Dr. Patel: But you . . . you won't . . . you . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, you try to understand. That because he cannot distribute food to others, that does not mean his nārāyaṇa-seva is null and void.

Dr. Patel: I did not say that, sir.

Prabhupāda: Then why you are talking this?

Dr. Patel: I did not say that, and you misunderstood me. That is where I am very . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . does it mean his nārāyaṇa-seva is wrong?

Dr. Patel: I don't say that nārāyaṇa-seva is wrong.

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right.

Dr. Patel: I did not say that. (break) . . . should be given to the people who need it.

Prabhupāda: No, that is your prescription. But annakūṭa, when the annakūṭa is there, the prasāda is there, either you eat or I eat, it doesn't matter.

Dr. Patel: It should be given . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . attitude. You want to dictate to everyone, although you do not know anything.

Dr. Patel: But you . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your . . . now, you see, understand.

Dr. Patel: I understand . . .

Prabhupāda: He has performed the annakūṭa ceremony. Either you eat or I eat, where is the difference?

Dr. Patel: Great difference. (break) . . . what way?

Prabhupāda: Because you do not take prasādam, therefore you are not devotee.

Dr. Patel: You . . . I take this much prasādam. They need that much prasāda. That is what I mean to say all the while.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot dictate. Prasāda . . . prasāda . . . prasāda will be distributed without discrimination.

Dr. Patel: Say you are hungry . . .

Dr. Shah: No, he's saying the same thing. He says without discrimination it is . . . (break) . . . prasādam is . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone is poor.

Dr. Patel: Everyone is poor before God . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . but those people who are hungry . . .

Prabhupāda: But why you dictate?

Dr. Shah: That's a different thing.

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Dr. Patel: I don't dictate. I suggest.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that it should be given to the poor man. You say like that. (break) The spiritual food should be distributed to everyone, without any discrimination.

Dr. Shah: To everyone, without any discrimination. (break)

Prabhupāda: It is meant for spiritual understanding.

Dr. Patel: That's right. That I agree.

Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hanir asyopajāyate (BG 2.65). So anyone who is spiritually poor, he should be given prasādam. It doesn't matter. (break) That, that makes it clear. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54) . . . (indistinct) . . . no discrimination . . . (end)