750721 - Morning Walk - San Francisco

Morning Walks by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

750721MW-SAN FRANCISCO - July 21, 1975 - 62:04 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . yoga.

Bahulāśva: This is that Yogi Bhajan.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yogi Bhajan.

Brahmānanda: What does it say? "Kuṇḍalinī-yoga, as taught by Yogi Bhajan, is a highly developed science of awareness. Join with us early in the morning to revitalize the body, mind and spirit. Daily practice of kuṇḍalinī-yoga under the guidance of a teacher helps you release the highest potential within the individual."

Devotee (1): One of his devotees has recently said that if he really wanted spiritual knowledge that they should come to you.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (1): One of Yogi Bhajan's devotees has said that Yogi Bhajan recently said if you really want spiritual knowledge to come to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Devotee (2): That's intelligent.

Prabhupāda: That Mahesh Yogi also says like that. (chuckles) And that, what is called, Satchidananda? He also says that.

Devotee (1): They're wise men.

Bahulāśva: We have a display over here in the window of your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bahulāśva: Would you like to see?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Bahulāśva: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Very good. So they are selling?

Bahulāśva: This is just a display for the students to see, like advertisement.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Bahulāśva: Yesterday many people bought your books.

Brahmānanda: And it says here, "Birth, old age, disease and death." What is this? "The Bhagavad-gītā we find information that besides earth, water, fire, air, space as well as the mind, intelligence and false ego, there exists a superior energy form. That superior energy is called ātmā, the self. There is an obvious difference between you and the ground. That factor that distinguishes the animate from the inanimate is consciousness. That consciousness, or awareness of being, is proof of the existence of the self."

Prabhupāda: Very nice. (japa) This is the library? No.

Bahulāśva: No, just student union. Around three thousand dollars of books were sold yesterday.

Prabhupāda: Oh. And sweets?

Bahulāśva: Oh, around five thousand. (laughter) The tongue is most voracious.

Yadubara: I talked to one boy yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and he was there at the festival because he had found your books in the school library.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yadubara: He had found your books in the school library. He said now he was saved.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Kṛṣṇadāsa, some scientists say that there is no life in the other planets, and some scientists said there may be. So who is correct?

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Well, didn't the Yamadūtas . . . You stated in your lecture yesterday that the Yamadūtas said that what is truth is what is in the Vedas. So I assume from the Vedic knowledge that there is life on other planets. Logically speaking also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. How can you say there is no life?

Kṛṣṇadāsa: But the scientists are saying, though, that the nearest star to our . . . You know, they consider the sun a star. And that the nearest star to ours is four light years away, which means that it's . . . They do not believe that there's life in this entire solar system, in the planets nearest us—the moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Neptune, Jupiter. They assume it's either too cold . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we say in the sun there is life. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1): "I spoke this Bhagavad-gītā science to the sun-god." So? Sun-god is dead stone, and Kṛṣṇa spoke to him?

Bahulāśva: They're very convinced, though, that they went to the moon, the scientists.

Devotee (3): I was going to ask you, Prabhupāda, is that the moon planet that we see, is that the same moon planet that's mentioned in the śāstras? The same planet?

Prabhupāda: Yes, same one. But the moon planet where they went, that is a dark planet. That is not moon planet.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: My father is a graduate of Berkeley, and he majored in astronomy and chemistry. And he's an atheist. And his logic is . . . is that—it's very empirical—is that if there's other life, they have to have bodies similar to ours.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Kṛṣṇadāsa: So it's impossible to have a life on the sun because we could not live there. That's the empirical way of . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot live there; therefore there is no life.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: That's what they assume.

Prabhupāda: But you cannot live in the water. Why there is life?

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Well, yes. That is fish.

Devotee: They don't have a body like yours.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Right.

Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense, "empirical"? There are millions of living entities within the water, but you cannot live even for an half an hour.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: But to scientific knowledge there's no life in fire.

Prabhupāda: Why not? Fire is also one of the elements like water and earth. So if there is life in the water, life on the earth, why not in the fire? What is this logic?

Bahulāśva: Actually, everything is burning. Even this body is also on fire.

Prabhupāda: No, the material ingredients, five elements . . . Out of the five elements, fire is one of them. So if in the four elements there are life, why not in the fifth? How do you say? That is their ignorance.

Devotee (3): You say even in the śāstra, Prabhupāda, that there's so many living entities in this body. It's evident.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact. As soon as the body is dead, so many living entities will come out. Why? How it is possible? How these living entities are coming? What is the reason? You say the body is dead, so why from the dead body other living entities coming?

Kṛṣṇadāsa: It becomes food for other living . . . It becomes food.

Prabhupāda: Food or whatever it may be, but the body, the ingredients of the body are complete to get life. You cannot say some chemical is missing. If it is missing, then how so many living entities are coming? There is nothing missing; everything is there. You cannot say "missing." What is that "missing"? You do not know. That is soul.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: When I first joined the movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I used to listen to your lectures and then go talk with my father. And he would argue with me, and I would find a question and come back and ask you, and find the answer and go back and argue with him. But the thing I always came up against is that if he assumes that there's life on other planets or that there is a supreme source, a supreme energy, or God, then it destroys his entire life's work, his study.

Prabhupāda: Then they are fools. They should stop all this education. This university should be broken. (laughter) Because they are producing only fools. That's all. They should stop this education.

Bahulāśva: Donate all these buildings to you.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. The buildings will remain there, but they will be finished. What is this education? They do not know what is God, what is soul, and what is the meaning of education? Simply bodily concept of life like cats and dogs, so what is the use of education? They remain cats and dogs. That is no value.

Bahulāśva: They cannot live happily either, or peaceful.

Prabhupāda: Because they are, basically they are mistaken, how they can be happy? Basically they are mistaken. How you can be happy? They do not know what is happiness.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: As a matter of fact, that's the same thing my father said. He says that "Because you believe in God," he says, "you don't have to fear death." He says, "But I have nothing to look forward to."

Prabhupāda: So that is also the position of a stone. So you better remain a stone. But I am life. The stone does not believe in anything and still it is happy. So you remain a stone. I am not stone; I am life.

Jayādvaita: There's a verse in Caitanya-caritāmṛta that without Lord Caitanya, there is no life.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jayādvaita: That without Caitanya Mahāprabhu, there is no life. Acaitanya.

Prabhupāda: Acaitanya, yes.

Bahulāśva: So this dark planet, then, is closer?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Bahulāśva: This dark Rāhu planet, this is closer? Rāhu?

Prabhupāda: Rāhu, yes. Rāhu is between earth and . . .

Bahulāśva: Moon?

Prabhupāda: Earth and sun. Moon is above sun.

Devotee (3): So it is bigger than the sun?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. The size is there in the Bhāgavata.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: In Stockholm, Prabhupāda, in the museum, they have a whole room, and in the room there is all these . . . There's American flag and Swedish flag, and there's a whole exhibit with one teeny little rock about as big as my fingernail that the Americans gave the Swedes. It's supposed to be a rock from the moon. And they said in it that it's exactly as any kind of rock that you'll find on earth. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: They say? It is simply cheating. They found this in Arizona, somebody . . . (laughter) And laboratory work.

Bahulāśva: I have been trying to arrange a meeting between Your Divine Grace and that astronaut. He was going to come to Ratha-yātrā, but he had to go to Florida for some space project.

Prabhupāda: What does he say, astronaut?

Bahulāśva: He says that . . . His name is Edgar Mitchell, and he was one of the men who went to the moon. But we talked, and he said . . . He thinks he has gone to the moon. But he said that when he was there, he had a religious experience, and he felt that there was a God. When he went to the moon, he had this experience. So when he came back, he was telling all his scientist friends what his experience was. So they became very afraid, and they kicked him out of the space project. They thought he had become a fanatic, religious sentimentalist, so they kicked him out. So now he has opened up an institute for noetic sciences or . . . It is some Greek word. It means like spiritual sciences. He wants to prove to the scientific world that there is God.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. He is good.

Bahulāśva: So we gave him a copy of Easy Journey to Other Planets and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and he's been reading that. He is friends with that other scientist, Wernher Von Braun, who gave that speech also saying that he feels that there is definitely God by his scientific studies. We also wrote him a letter, but we haven't gotten any response. Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu wrote him also.

Prabhupāda: What he is?

Bahulāśva: He is a very big scientist for Fairchild. He started the space project.

Harikeśa: He invented those rockets in Germany.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Yeah, he was actually captured. He used to work for Hitler. He invented the V-2 rockets that bombed London, or was one of them.

Bahulāśva: He gave a very nice talk in San Francisco.

Prabhupāda: Oh. About?

Bahulāśva: He said that from his scientific studies he is feeling frustrated. So he made a public statement that he is going to give them up for studying God. He says that he feels that everything indicates in the universe that there must be a supreme intelligence behind the workings of the universe.

Prabhupāda: Very intelligent man. He is intelligent. As soon as one denies the existence of God, immediately he comes within the category of four classes of men: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind and knowledge taken away by māyā.

Bahulāśva: The four classes that never surrender unto Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Or do not admit the existence of God.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: To assume that there is no God is basically nonscientific.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Because they're denying an entire field of study.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are rascals. (japa)

Yadunandana: The reason why the Western world is so much involved in science is because the religions that have been presented here in the West have cheated the people economically . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why cheated? The Christian religion says God created.

Devotee (4): But the followers do not practice this idea. The original idea is very nice.

Prabhupāda: No, they became overintelligent by so-called education.

Bahulāśva: Overintelligent?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: How is that?

Prabhupāda: Overintelligence means rascal. Intelligence is good, but overintelligence means rascal.

Bahulāśva: How does that happen, when he becomes overintelligent?

Prabhupāda: Overintelligent, it is sarcastically said. More than intelligent.

Bahulāśva: Oh. Speculative.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (4): What I meant to say is that the directors of these religions, like the Pope and so many things, they themselves have committed so many abominable activities that people have said, "Well, why should we stay with religion? These religious leaders themselves are eating meat, they have prostitution, they are cheating the people, taking their money, living very nicely . . ."

Prabhupāda: But that is not religion. Why you accept the Pope as religious?

Devotee (4): No, we don't accept . . .

Prabhupāda: You reject. You reject. Come to us. Why do you accept these rascals as religious? That is your fault. Why should you stick to them, that they cannot teach what is real religion? So let us give you.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: In Germany they say that's throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water.

Prabhupāda: Throwing? (laughter)

Kṛṣṇadāsa: They wash the baby, and the water's dirty. So they throw the water out with the baby.

Prabhupāda: Throwing out the baby? With the . . .?

Devotee (4): With the bath water.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Well, they're assuming because there's some irreligion amongst the so-called religious leaders, therefore they reject all religion.

Prabhupāda: No.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Scientists, I mean.

Prabhupāda: No, why? Because you have received some counterfeit coin, therefore you should reject all coins?

Kṛṣṇadāsa: That's the logic.

Prabhupāda: That is not logic; that is foolishness.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Right.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. You must be experienced, that "There are counterfeit coins. I shall be very clever, intelligent, to see before accepting any genuine coin." That should be your conclusion. Not that I have met one or two counterfeit coins, therefore I conclude there is no genuine coin.

Bahulāśva: Just like in the old days when they would get a gold coin, they would bite it with their teeth to see if it was real gold, make a test. (break)

Bharadvāja: . . . false, they must also conclude that there's something true. Because that is relative. (break)

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the basis for scientific rejection of religious dogma is that in the medieval era in . . .

Prabhupāda: Religious . . . not dogma. Just like in Christian religion it is said that "God created this." So this is a fact, but it is not properly explained. And neither the followers understood how to explain, third-class men. So therefore they should accept, that's all. They should accept. Just like one thing, sweetmeat. A child is tasting. So if the child wants how it is made, so he has no power to understand. Therefore he should be simply ordered, "You simply eat, that's all." So in the Bible it is like that. And therefore it is strictly ordered that "You should follow." The things are there, but they are not explained because they were third-class men. Otherwise why the commandment was "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Jesus Christ? So what class of men they were? All third-class, fourth-class men. How they will understand? Now people have become, by education, advanced . . .

Bahulāśva: We should go this way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, because they have these sprinklers on here.

Prabhupāda: Now they should come to big dictionary. This is Vedic. The Vedic truth is there, but it is not properly explained because the men were fourth-class. Now the people have become advanced, they should take to Vedic literature. Then they will understand how God created. But it was not explained because the people, they were living in the desert and shepherds and all fourth-class, fifth-class men. And now they, these first-class men, all advanced men, they are trying to adjust the tenth-class ideas, and therefore they are becoming rejecting, that "It is all useless." Now they should come to first-class understanding in the Vedas.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: As a matter of fact, there's a very famous quote from Christ . . .

Prabhupāda: I think Christ said that "There are many things to be spoken, but . . ."

Kṛṣṇadāsa: "My father's house has many rooms, but I cannot tell you of it now."

Prabhupāda: Because they were fourth-class, fifth-class men. They will not understand. Therefore it is taken "dogmas." The modern students, they are advanced in education, and these things are not explained. And besides that, their education is atheistic. Therefore they are trying to reject religion.

Nalinī-kaṇṭa: They say you cannot study Veda because Christ said that there is no other way than himself.

Prabhupāda: Because they are fourth class, unless he says like that, how they will stick? They were not intelligent men. Just like Lord Buddha also said, "There is no God." "There is no God," but he is God himself.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means the followers of Lord Buddha are less intelligent than the followers of . . .

Prabhupāda: "Less" not. They are atheist class. So they will not understand what is God. So he said, "There is no God. You just hear me and become nonviolent." So his idea was, "Let these rascal first of all become nonviolent. Then they will be pure, and then they will understand."

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Nectar of Devotion you explain that there are three classes of devotees. And you say that the third-class devotee, he has belief but he cannot explain or give any support.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Bahulāśva: This is like Christian . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: They believe that there is God.

Prabhupāda: If you believe there is God, that is sufficient. That is sufficient. But now they, being advanced in education, they want to know how God is there. There is no explanation. Therefore they reject it.

Jayādvaita: They try to explain scientifically what's in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: What is . . .? That science is rascaldom. So how they will be able? Because the whole thing is rascaldom, how they will explain God? Those who are actually advanced scientists, they have accepted. "There must be God," they say.

Jayādvaita: But otherwise the rascals, they try and explain scientifically. They come to the conclusion . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, what is their science? Whole science is rascaldom. Just like they have never seen what is there in the planet, and they are concluding, "There is no life." You see? So they are all rascals. Maybe one or two like that gentleman who says that "No, there is God. There is grace (?)."

Bahulāśva: So Prabhupāda, you said belief is enough?

Prabhupāda: Yes, for the noneducated rascal, belief is the . . . That is required, blind belief. That is good.

Bahulāśva: Blind faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: But to become an advanced devotee, do you have to have knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, catur-vidhā bhajante mām . . . (BG 7.16).

Jayādvaita: Janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna.

Prabhupāda: Sukṛtinaḥ arjuna. Jñānī . . . What is called?

Devotee (5): Ārto jijñāsur . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah. No, this first word, distress, ārtaḥ, ārtaḥ. Artaḥ, arthārthī, jñānī and jijñāsuḥ. So some innocent man, when he is distressed—he has belief in God—so he approaches God, "God, I am distressed. Kindly help me." He is simply on faith. That is good. And jñānī means he wants to know actually what is God. Then his enquiry is advancing.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes philosophers make a distinction between knowledge and a belief. They say you can believe in something, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily know that thing which you believe in.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's fact. Therefore for the neophytes, less intelligent, they should believe. That is the only way. Viśvāsa. So generally, mass of people they are not so educated. They should believe.

Devotee (6): It says in the Bhāgavatam . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said that viśvāsa śabde śudṛdha niścaya. Śudṛdha niścaya, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya (CC Madhya 22.62). Śraddhā, śraddhā. Śraddhā means faith. So in Christian science also, there is state, faithful. So this faith may be blind, but that is required.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Like a child.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Śraddha-śabde viśvāsa. Śraddhā, faith, means believing firmly. That is śraddhā, or faith. There is no question, "Yes." Śraddha-śabde viśvāsa. Therefore we have to believe in the Vedas. Vedas also says like that. That example I give sometimes, that cow dung is stool. In one place it is said stool is impure; in another place it is said cow dung is pure. Now, one may argue, "What is this, contradiction?" But you have to believe it. That is Veda. And that is actually being done. So without faith, you cannot make advance. The skeptics, they have no faith. Therefore they are lost. You must have faith.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What is that ingredient or what is that thing which causes faith to develop in one? From someone becoming . . .

Prabhupāda: Purity. Purity. The more you become pure, the faith is firm.

Nārāyaṇa: So faith comes from previous pious activities?

Prabhupāda: No, may not be previous activity. You believe the authority, spiritual master.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That comes from purity, faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As purity develops, one becomes more faithful.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That purity is said, ādau śraddhā: "Beginning is faith." Now tato sādhu-saṅgaḥ: "You mix with faithful men." Then it will develop. Otherwise, if you take simply initiation and then sleep, then faith will be lost. That is happening. You see? Therefore it is said, adau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). You accept faith, maybe blindly. Now you make further progress by mixing with advanced devotees. Then it will remain fixed. Otherwise you will loss.

Bahulāśva: Faith is fixed by knowledge?

Prabhupāda: No, faith may be blind, but it increases. If you stick to faith and follow the principles, then it will increase. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (CC Madhya 17.136). Just like . . . Yasya deve parā bhaktiḥ yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). So if you have got faith in spiritual master, then you will advance. If you have no faith, then it will be lost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And unless one is pure, he will not have faith.

Prabhupāda: No.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Isn't it also like a child?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Everyone is child. So the father says, "Do this. That's all." Like "Write 'A.' " He does not know what is A. But the father says, "You write like this." That will increase his education.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: But doesn't it come first because of trust? Trust also?

Prabhupāda: Yes, trust. Without trust, without faith, you cannot advance even an inch. So therefore it is required.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Prabhupāda, what are the symptoms of purity?

Prabhupāda: Just like I do not know where this pathway goes. But you show me, "This way." So without faith, how can I go? If I have no faith, then I cannot move even an inch. I believe, "Yes, he is all right. Let me go." This is faith. I do not know whether it is going . . . which way it is going. So without faith, you cannot move an inch. So faith must be there, either it is true or blind.

Yadubara: So everyone has faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone has. Therefore the direction should be taken from the perfect, and with faith you will make progress.

Nārāyaṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, but Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that wherever one puts their faith, He gives them the steadiness to worship in that way. So how come so many people, they put their faith in all these false gurus or people that impose themself as ones who are in knowledge, and then they become fooled? Is this previous activities? Sinful activities?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Jayādvaita: You explained that in your lecture yesterday, that Kṛṣṇa is in the heart, and He is giving direction to remember or to forget. That sometimes He is directing to remember Him, sometimes to forget Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if you have no faith, then Kṛṣṇa will not give you instruction. When he is faithless, he will not make progress. Stops.

Nārāyaṇa: But people are putting their faith in so many different places.

Prabhupāda: "So many" means he has no faith in anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "so many," that means he has no faith. He is faithless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? If you say that purity is required for faith to develop, what are the symptoms by which one can be said to be pure?

Prabhupāda: That is . . . Just like "Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this." So if you have faith, you will not do it. But because you have no faith, you will do it, and therefore you will go to ruin.

Yadubara: The karmīs have faith that the sun will come up every day.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yadubara: Everyone has faith that the sun will come up every day.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yadubara: So that is actually faith in the workings of the Supreme, Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: What is your idea? I do not follow. Everyone knows the sun will appear, faithless or faith.

Yadubara: Is that faith?

Prabhupāda: Not faith. It is fact. He is seeing every day.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists will argue . . .

Prabhupāda: That is faith—means on knowledge. So faith with knowledge is very good. But beginning must be faith—with knowledge or without knowledge.

Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the scientists will argue that Kṛṣṇa consciousness won't be scientifically accepted if it's just based on . . .

Prabhupāda: The scientists, how they can argue like that? Therefore they are rascals. First of all they explain something theoretically: "Hydrogen, oxygen—mixed together it becomes water." It is faith. Then it is practically shown in the laboratory. So faith is the beginning. Theoretical knowledge means faith. Then experiment.

Bharadvāja: The Vedic knowledge is also that way, very scientific.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: So first we hear from the guru that Kṛṣṇa is God, and we have faith in that, we chant, and then we come to know.

Prabhupāda: As you become purified, then your faith becomes fixed up with knowledge. Therefore that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam (BG 7.28): "One who has finished his sinful life, he can become a devotee." Otherwise one cannot. First of all, beginning in faith. Then, by following the process, he becomes completely sinless. Then he, full knowledge. And so long he will be sinful, the things will be not properly manifested. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam.

Bharadvāja: So knowledge is not necessary for faith, but faith is necessary for knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore devotee, without any knowledge he becomes devotee. That faith, only faith. The devotee advances. Jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukī (SB 1.2.7). Later on, they become automatically full of knowledge because they have strong faith. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ nāśayāmy (BG 10.11): "Because he is faithful, therefore I help him how to get knowledge." Again you come to that. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Everything is there.

Jayādvaita: Your lecture yesterday was so nice, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Everything, so many ideas from Bhagavad-gītā, all explained and put together so nicely.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Blind faith is the belief that little . . .

Prabhupāda: Blind faith, without . . . That I have already explained. Immediately, why do you forget? He shows me, "Prabhupāda, come this way." So I have no faith. Why shall I go? Then I have stop here, finished, movement finished. So you have to keep faith blindly. And if the man who is giving direction, he is perfect, then your faith will make you advanced. But if you go to a rascal cheater and if you have faith, blind faith, then you are lost.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: Just like that little rock that I saw, that it's from the moon. Now that is blind faith.

Prabhupāda: Yes, blind faith.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: In the wrong thing.

Bahulāśva: Socrates also, he was discussing epistemology, and he said that faith or belief is as good as knowledge for all practical purposes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same thing: the child has no knowledge, but he has faith in his parents, and he believes what his parents says. Then he is making progress.

Bahulāśva: This way.

Prabhupāda: I have faith in you. (laughter) (break) Now, I give sometimes this example. Just like you go to a barber shop, and you put your neck like this, and he is with the razor. So unless you have faith, "No, he is good man. He will not cut my throat," how can you do so? So faith is the beginning. If you have no . . . If you say, "No, I have no faith in you," then you cannot be cleansed.

Bharadvāja: That example became very clear when we went to India. (Prabhupāda and devotees laugh) Because the barbers are so . . . They look like they could cut your throat.

Bahulāśva: You have to have a lot of faith.

Prabhupāda: He can do that, but you must have faith. Otherwise no shaving. So many . . . Suppose you are going to some unknown place. Now we are purchasing, paying two thousand dollars, ticket. But where is the guarantee that you will go there? You are paying first money, but there is no guarantee that you will go there. Then how do you get the ticket? How do you get on the plane unless, without faith? So faith . . . without faith you cannot move an inch. It must be there. (break) . . . believe, "No, no, this ticket is issued by the Pan American. They are good company, and so many people are going. So I will go also." That's all. So faith. You never went there, neither you know whether it will be possible to go there. But still, you have to do. That is faith. (break)

Bharadvāja: The airplane may crash.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. There is no guarantee that you will reach there. But still you have to purchase ticket. You have to get on the plane. That is faith.

Sudāmā: And all the passengers have to have faith in the captain of the plane.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the faith must be there. Without faith, you cannot go.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: So actually that's what scientific knowledge, at least the atheistic science, is based upon, that on one hand the theists believe in faith, that there is a Supreme. But the atheist believes that "Undoubtedly there cannot be, because we have not seen one."

Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. The same example can be applied, that you have not gone there. How can I pay you? First of all let me go there, then I shall pay," he may say. But he will, "Get out. First of all pay, then you come on." (laughter) That's it.

Citsukhānanda: When we were first coming to this movement, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we opened Bhagavad-gītā. Myself, I read. I said, "I don't understand this." So I began to clean the floor, wash the dishes, cut the vegetables . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, very good.

Citsukhānanda: And then by your . . .

Prabhupāda: Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau (Brs. 1.2.234). By service only. You can understand God simply by service. There is no other way. And the faith begins from the tongue. You see? Therefore it is advised that you chant and take prasāda. Then faith will come. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. It begins . . . The faith begins from the tongue. "Why?" People will be surprised. "Faith must begin from the mind, from the eyes. And why it is said tongue?" They do not know. That is also faith, that "Simply engaging tongue in the service of the Lord, I shall understand." So this is also blind faith. But actually it is happening. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam. That's all.

Yadubara: So most of these people, they are so ignorant that we should try to engage them in works of devotion rather than explain . . .

Prabhupāda: This is devotion: "Please come here, chant with me and dance with me, and when you are tired, take prasādam." That's all.

Jayādvaita: They had five thousand dollars' worth of faith yesterday in the prasādam.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes. So whatever is said in the śāstra . . . Now, they say, "Faith begins from the tongue." "No," it is surprising. How is that? But it is a fact.

Bharadvāja: So to encourage their faith, therefore the sādhu must set example of purity.

Prabhupāda: Sādhu śāstra guru vākya, tinete koriyā aikya. Guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete koriyā aikya, ār nā koriho mane āśā. Don't go anywhere else. Take this faithfully, the orders of guru. You are singing daily. Ār nā koriho mane āśā. This is faith, strong faith. And that is described in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, śraddhā-śabde—viśvāsa śudṛdha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). Viśvāsa, firm faith. That is śraddhā. Faith means to believe strongly. That is faith.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: So actually, in regards to my father or atheists or scientists in general . . .

Prabhupāda: They are faithless.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: They will never believe.

Prabhupāda: They are faithless; therefore they will never make any progress. Their first principle is sacrifice. And in the śāstra it . . . ādau śraddhā: "First of all faith." And these rascals, they have no faith. Therefore they do not make any progress. And Rūpa Gosvāmī says, ādau śraddhā: "Begin with faith." So they cannot realize, condemned, because Kṛṣṇa will withdraw the knowledge. Mattaḥ smṛtir apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). So Kṛṣṇa will say, "Oh, this rascal is faithless. All right, make him more faithless. He will never understand." That is atheist.

Bharadvāja: What is hope for them then?

Prabhupāda: To become faithful, surrender. That is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You rascal, surrender. You are not faithful; therefore you are condemned. You surrender first. Then next thing." So unless he becomes a surrendered soul, there is no hope. There is no hope. He will never understand.

Yadubara: What is the best way, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to instill a little faith? How do we instill some faith in these people?

Prabhupāda: Little faith . . . Therefore you associate. Just like we are inviting this morning lecture. Coming, coming, coming, coming—faith will come.

Yadubara: They will not come.

Prabhupāda: They will not come. Then he is condemned. Let them remain animals. If you don't go to school, there is no question of education. Where is the question of education? One must go to the school with faith that "I will be educated." That is required.

Yadubara: But if they take some prasādam, that will help them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your mercy, that you are . . . He is faithless rascal. "All right, you take prasādam. That will help you." Yes.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: You may be pleased to know that Kārttikeya . . . He said he's looking forward to going to Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise why he is coming again? (chuckles) There must be some faith.

Sudāmā: I spoke with him the other day, and he said now he's getting a degree, but now he does not know what to do with it. So he sees that all of his activity of going to school and getting degrees is useless waste of time if there's no connection with Kṛṣṇa.

Citsukhānanda: Actually, nobody could leave your lotus feet, Prabhupāda. Once they've come and tasted this bliss of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody could leave. Everyone comes back. Sometimes we become confused a little, but nobody can leave you.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. (break) . . . Mukunda, Mukunda or Murāri? Mukunda. He was going everywhere. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him: "Don't let this rascal to come here." You know that? Mukunda . . . (indistinct) . . . (break) . . . api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā, then?

Devotees: Śraddhāvān bhajate yo mām (BG 6.47).

Prabhupāda: Ah. Śraddhāvān. Yes. That is required. If he has no faith, then he remains in darkness.

Devotee (6): If we save the common people by giving them prasādam, how can we save the impersonalists?

Prabhupāda: That will come later on. (break) . . . ists will not come. They will never come, because they do not believe in the personal feature of God. Unless very hungry, (chuckles) he will not come, because he does not believe in prasāda, does not believe in God.

Bahulāśva: Just like yesterday those impersonalists wouldn't come on the stage. When they saw your opulent vyāsāsana and so many devotees offering you āratik, they realized if they came to the stage, they would have to sit at your feet. Therefore they wouldn't come. This one Swami Satchidananda . . . I have a friend who's a member of his movement. So this yogī told him that if you want to know how to receive the spiritual master you should go watch the Hare Kṛṣṇa devotees when they greet their guru at the airport . . . Then you will learn what is the proper way to . . .

Prabhupāda: Who says?

Bahulāśva: Swami Satchidananda told him that. (laughter)

Yadubara: He cannot give instruction, so he has to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, he was rejected. But then appealing, then he was reinstated.

Bahulāśva: They want the respect, but they cannot command the respect.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they . . . He was found implicated with some woman.

Bahulāśva: You explain, Prabhupāda, that the impersonalists have to again fall down to material activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: So this Satchidananda, before he became yogī, he was an engineer. So in his spare time . . . I was asking this boy, "What does he do? What is his life like?" I was wondering what he lived like. So he goes to bed at 8:00 at night, and no one sees him until 8:00 in the morning. So I asked, "Was he asleep?" So he said no, that he's in some trance. And then during the day he works on cars.

Prabhupāda: Cars?

Bahulāśva: He collects old automobiles, old classical cars, and he takes them apart and puts them together for a hobby.

Prabhupāda: He cannot give up his old habit.

Bahulāśva: No. He cannot give up the engineering habit.

Bharadvāja: About this Yogi Bhajan also, when I was in Delhi . . .

Prabhupāda: Delhi?

Bharadvāja: Yes, in Delhi, there was one cloth merchant there. And he asked me, he said, "Do you know this Yogi Bhajan?" I said, "Yes, he is very famous." He said, "Oh, he is my cousin. We used to be in the cloth business together, and he could not make enough money, so he decided to go to America." But his experience was . . . He was a train engineer actually. Train.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Bharadvāja: This Yogi Bhajan. So he said that he tried to get a job with one of the railroad companies, but because he was Sikh—he was wearing long beard and hair—they would not give him a job. They said, "You must shave up first." He said, "No, I cannot do this." So finally he said he decided that "Not only will I not shave my beard and hair, but I will make hundreds of disciples . . ." (break)

Sudāmā: . . . Prabhupāda, either of those associations, which is the highest?

Prabhupāda: Both are equal.

Sudāmā: Both are equal?

Prabhupāda: You have to associate with both. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Both guru's kṛpā and Kṛṣṇa's kṛpā, they must be joined. Then you will get. (break)

Jayādvaita: We're very eager to get that guru-kṛpā.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Jayādvaita: We are. All of us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ. If you get guru's kṛpā, then automatically you get Kṛṣṇa.

Nārāyaṇa: Guru-kṛpā only comes by pleasing the spiritual master, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Otherwise how?

Nārāyaṇa: Excuse me?

Prabhupāda: Otherwise how it can come?

Nārāyaṇa: So those disciples who don't have opportunity to see you or speak with you . . .

Prabhupāda: That he was speaking, vāṇī and vapuḥ. Even if you don't see his body, you take his word, vāṇī.

Nārāyaṇa: But how do they know they're pleasing you, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: If you actually follow the words of guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how he can be pleased?

Sudāmā: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayādvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we'll do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My Guru Mahārāja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then? I am getting the mercy of guru. This is vāṇī. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the vāṇī, then you are getting help.

Sudāmā: So there's no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru.

Prabhupāda: No. Cakhu-dān dilo jei . . . What is that, next one?

Sudāmā: Cakhu-dān dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei.

Prabhupāda: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.

Kṛṣṇadāsa: You never feel any intense separation from your spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: That you do not require to question. (end)