720630 - Interview - San Diego

Conversations by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720630IV-SAN DIEGO - June 30, 1972 - 76:00 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . but our system is . . . just like a beautiful dead body. A very beautiful, nice girl, she is appreciated by everyone. But when that girl is dead, then although the body is there, the so-called beauty is there, nobody accepts it. Is it not a fact?

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Similarly . . . anyhow, I'm traveling all over the world—European cities, American cities I've seen—but wherever I go I see that . . . (break) . . . the same boys, four or five years ago, but two or three years ago, he was living in the same country, the same atmosphere, but now they are called bright faces. Why?

Reporter lady: Now they are called . . .?

Prabhupāda: Bright faces.

Devotees: Bright face.

Reporter lady: Oh, bright face. Hmm.

Prabhupāda: And actually they are so. Because the consciousness is there. So this beauty of your country will be million times enhanced when there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise it is dead.

Reporter lady: Erm . . . people have asked if . . . a lot of religions—I know that last night you talked about religions—have in the United States, have come into what they call social consciousness, which means establishing schools and giving money to causes, etc. And does Kṛṣṇa have anything like this for poor . . . the poor people? Ah . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not only for the poor people, for the animals also. You have got for the poor people but not for the animals. You send the animals to the slaughterhouse. Your love is like that, partial. You love the poor people but not the poor animals.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Therefore your love is so limited and defective. And Kṛṣṇa conscious person not only loves the poor man but he loves the poor animals also—poor beast, insect, ants; he is so upright and so broadminded. These men, those who are after opening schools and hospitals, they cannot be compared even by thousand times fractional portion with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are so upright.

Just like with this consciousness I am doing, I am at the age of seventy-six, seventy-seven years have left everything, and I'm trying to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. I could have very easily retired and sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so, I mean to say, pushing, that even an old man like me, he is also working hard day and night. So who can be compared with a Kṛṣṇa conscious man? It is not possible. They are inspired by spiritual life, whereas others, they are already dead. What service they can do?

Reporter lady: Erm . . . people have asked me to ask you what . . . so, what . . . if you have any comparable . . . like what they call social actions.

Prabhupāda: Yes, social life, we are giving the best social service. Because the whole society is under darkness, because the man does not know what is the aim of life . . .

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: . . . what is his constitutional position, what is his duty. Everyone is engaged in some business as gaḍḍālikā-pravāha, it is called in Sanskrit, gaḍḍālikā-pravāha, or bheḍyadāsana: one man is doing, "Oh, I shall do it." One man is doing some sort of work, andha yathāndhair upānīya (SB 7.5.31). They do not consider that this man is . . .

The example is given, in India it is called bheḍīya-kaṭa. Bheḍīya-kaṭa means . . . bheḍī means lamb. The lambs are taken in the slaughterhouse in flocks, and in the slaughterhouse if one lamb is somehow or other pushed, all the lambs will go. They have no sense that where we are going. They simply follow, that if one lamb has got in, "So let us all go in." You see?

So this is going on. They do not know by their process of so-called humanitarian work, there are all entering into the slaughterhouse; but one man has entered, so let him enter—without understanding why I . . . where I am entering and what . . . what I am going to do. There is no consideration. The nature's slaughterhouse . . .

Now we are thinking that, "I am eating very nicely by slaughtering a cow," but he does not know that he will be also be slaughtered. This is nature's law. Just like if you kill a man, then you will be killed. Similarly, in God's law if you kill an animal, the animal will kill you again. He does not know; therefore that is going on, and one is entered in the slaughterhouse, "Let me enter also." This is going on.

Reporter lady: You said that if one kills an animal the animal will kill you again . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Reporter lady: In another life?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why not?

Reporter lady: Hmm. Why are so many young people, for instance, why have they become interested in joining the Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Because they are reasonable. When I speak like this, they appreciate; therefore they come to me. I don't ask them to follow me blindly. I always speak to them philosophy, logic, and their intelligence will come though.

Reporter lady: Yesterday you said that, erm, so we weren't ready for the Kṛṣṇa consciousness until six years ago. What . . .?

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Reporter lady: Yesterday you said that we weren't ready for the Kṛṣṇa consciousness until six years ago. What made us ready six years ago?

Prabhupāda: This is the process. They are trying to understand the philosophy. When I speak, I speak philosophy, not dogmas.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: This is not a religion, faith. There is philosophy, background.

Śyāmasundara: Some while ago you were saying that our parents were enamored with this gorgeous dead body . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . but their sons are not so much enamored.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their qualification.

Śyāmasundara: This only started a few years ago.

Reporter lady: Well, how does the dress, that wearing of the sārīs and men shaving hair, how does that better make one able to get into Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Well, that is a one's choice. A sārī is not an essential part of to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. But the ideas, the Kṛṣṇa conscious ideas, specially adopting in culture. Therefore they like to be dressed like Indians. But that is not a part of our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that one who needs to learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he has to take a sārī. That is not our injunction; that is their choice.

Reporter lady: Many people are intrigued to see that the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness people doing the chanting, and a lot of people can't understand why they're doing it. I sort of do, but . . . can you explain it better, so that I can explain it to other people?

Prabhupāda: Well, that I've already explained yesterday, that we want to chant so that others may hear, and by hearing they will be benefited. This is the etiquette. They are not coming here to join the chanting; therefore we are going outside so that they may hear and be benefited. That is our . . .

Reporter lady: Erm, you said that Hare Kṛṣṇa was a . . . something else . . . disciplic?

Prabhupāda: Disciplic.

Reporter lady: Succession. How did you know that you were going to be the disciple, and do you know who your . . . the next disciple will be?

Prabhupāda: Just like I know from my father my grandfather's name, my great-grandfather's name, similarly, this is also grandfather, great-grandfather and so on. I know from my spiritual master, he knows from his spiritual master, he knows from his spiritual master. This is disciplic succession.

Just like family . . . (indistinct) . . . just like you are born in a big family, and some hundreds of years ago your forefathers were known as Sir John Steward, or something like that. How do you know it, that he belongs to your family? How do you know it?

Reporter lady: They told me.

Prabhupāda: Yes, by predecessor. And practically also. As we are speaking of Bhagavad-gītā, we are speaking the same thing as Kṛṣṇa said.

Reporter lady: What is that called, Ba-ga-a . . .?

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā.

Reporter lady: How do you spell Bhagavad-gītā?

Viṣṇujana: B-h-a-g-a-v-a-d g-i-t-a.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Reporter lady: (is shown book) Oh. Can I see?

Viṣṇujana: Sure.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: A new edition is coming out by Macmillan, which is . . .

Prabhupāda: A new edition. Oh very good.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: A new edition, not . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . it is very detailed and elaborate . . .

Reporter lady: Does this contain all this . . . this . . . this . . .

Prabhupāda: Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness proposal. Now it is coming out in this bigger edition, Macmillan.

Viṣṇujana: It's a bigger edition, with original Sanskrit texts, roman transliteration, word-for-word and translation . . .

Prabhupāda: This is the basic principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Viṣṇujana: We all accept this . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This edition does not contain the original Sanskrit. The other edition contains the original Sanskrit, verse, and transliteration in roman type. Word meaning, translation and purport. So you popularize this book by your religious . . . what is it? You are religious . . .

Reporter lady: I'm a reporter.

Prabhupāda: . . . editor? So you make this book popular. You can do it.

Reporter lady: How old is it? Is it five thousand years?

Prabhupāda: Oh, this book is five thousand years old.

Reporter lady: When it was originally . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, originally spoken. But in your country it is published in the . . . (indistinct) . . . oh, there are other editions. But my Bhagavad-gītā As It Is was published in 1968 by Macmillan Company.

Reporter lady: I've read a little bit in a magazine that Kṛṣṇa consciousness put out here that when you came to the United States in 1966, you had $7, a letter of introduction and a suitcase, and you went to Tompkins Square . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter lady: . . . and started to chant. What happened once you started to chant?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I, just like I was chanting, and young boys and girls were gathering, and later on they become my students.

Reporter lady: And then you said you became ill and you went back to India?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter lady: And then you . . .

Prabhupāda: And then again I came back in 1968.

Reporter lady: But hadn't you founded that it had spread a lot before you came back? Because I remember it . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I had just began. It was taking, sprouting, but it requires attention; therefore I came back again.

Reporter lady: Do you spend most of your time now in the United States or in India?

Prabhupāda: No, I don't stay anywhere very long. I am sometimes in India, sometimes in Africa, sometimes in Canada, sometimes Australia, New Zealand, India. So we are back. Japan. We have got branches all over, and if I stay one week, the whole year will be . . . (indistinct) . . . we have got so many branches.

Reporter lady: Can one be a Baptist, can be a . . . can one go to a Baptist church still and also be in the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Or must one give up . . .

Prabhupāda: No. We have no objection. We have no objection. We don't say that you go . . . don't go Baptist church. We don't say anyone. But gradually they remain here and give up . . . (indistinct) . . . but we don't say or canvass. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59).

Just like you are meeting two friends, then meeting, meeting, you select the best friend and don't go to the others. This is the way. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. We don't say, but they prefer not to go any more. But we don't say anyone that, "You don't go."

Reporter lady: Do you know who the . . . will there be another disciple after you? Do you know who it will be? Do you choose . . .

Prabhupāda: I have got so many disciples.

Reporter lady: But do you know after you, a svāmī?

Prabhupāda: Everyone will come to me. Everyone. Not who, but everyone. This is not a . . . like that, an organized religion. It is . . . what is called? . . . (indistinct) . . . one who has understood this philosophy, he will go out and preach, just like I did.

I came to your country at the age of seventy years, actually at the age of seventy years old, because I was outside alone with $7 in the pocket. (chuckles) But the impetus, the urge, was there: "Go." So similarly everyone who has understood me, the urge will be there: he must preach. It is not that I designate somebody that, "You preach." No, it is so living force, great living force, that one who has understood this philosophy, he will not stay at home; he will preach . . .

Reporter lady: Hmm-hmm.

Prabhupāda: . . . without any salary. Not that salaried preacher.

Reporter lady: The people that go into the Hare Kṛṣṇa consciousness, do they have to live in the temple?

Prabhupāda: Not necessary.

Reporter lady: What do you eat?

Prabhupāda: We eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa-prasādam.

Reporter lady: But . . . how, how do you spell that?

Prabhupāda: Give her some kṛṣṇa-prasādam.

Reporter lady: How do you spell that?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: P-r-a-s-a-d-a-m.

Reporter lady: What is it?

Prabhupāda: Prasādam means foodstuffs left by Kṛṣṇa for eating.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: The leftover of Kṛṣṇa, after Kṛṣṇa eats.

Prabhupāda: That's called prasādam. We don't eat anything which is not first of all eaten by Kṛṣṇa. Remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter lady: And you don't eat meat?

Prabhupāda: No. Because Kṛṣṇa does not eat meat, therefore we do not take.

Reporter lady: And you don't believe in killing flies or ants or anything like that?

Prabhupāda: No. The Christians also ordered not to kill. But they don't obey the order.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: The Ten Commandments is there, "Thou shall not kill." But they're very busy in killing now.

Reporter lady: What about vegetables? That's alive.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we say, that we take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Kṛṣṇa takes vegetables, so if there is any responsibility, it goes to Kṛṣṇa. We take the remnants of foodstuff left by Kṛṣṇa. Actually vegetable has got also life, but an animal has got also life. But those animal eaters, they also make some discrimination. They eat other animals, not the animals produced by him. Why? Why this discrimination? He can eat his own children. Why don't you not eat?

Reporter lady: Well, I didn't really understand. You said that you didn't . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Reporter lady: . . . eat . . . a cow would eat a cow?

Prabhupāda: Well, a cow is an animal, and his childrens are also animal. Why does he not eat his own children?

Reporter lady: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter lady: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Well, you can guess. Why? Why? Why does he not eat?

Reporter lady: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You say, just like you told vegetable has got also life. Similarly, if you want to eat another life, why don't you eat your own children? Why?

Reporter lady: Because it's your own children.

Prabhupāda: Why is this discrimination?

Reporter lady: Because it's your own.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter lady: It's your own children, that's why, probably.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you mean to say to me it's okay to eat others' children? That is not wrong? Others may eat your children and you eat others' children . . . that day will come, that is stated. These animal eaters will eat now one another's children.

Just like I heard, in the concentration camps in Germany they ate their own stool out of hunger. Kīrtanānanda might have told me, some . . . (indistinct) . . . also.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa has given you so many nice things, grains, that is for human body. Grains, fruits, flowers, milk, so many nice things Kṛṣṇa has given for the human society. Why they should kill animals?

Animal killing is for tigers, lions, those who live in the jungle. The human society . . . this is the . . . the animal society of the dogs, they are not very appreciative of this type of foodstuff.

Reporter lady: (referring to some prasādam she's been given?) Do I put it in here, do I?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Any way you like.

Prabhupāda: So . . . and we can prepare hundreds and thousands of nice preparations from grains and fruits, milk and sugar. Hundreds and thousands of nice, palatable dishes. They should learn how to eat. Simply taking a lump of flesh and boil it and with a little black pepper, is that very good idea?

Reporter lady: Take a what?

Prabhupāda: Lump of flesh, boil it and put in little salt and black pepper and eat it. Is that very good eating?

Reporter lady: What?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's a lump of flesh.

Reporter lady: Oh.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: A carcass.

Reporter lady: No.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Boil it with a little salt and pepper.

Prabhupāda: And compared with so many nice foodstuff we prepare.

Reporter lady: What about lettuce and carrots and things like that, that are grown in the ground?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda explains that vegetables also have life, but Kṛṣṇa accepts those foodstuffs.

Prabhupāda: Another point is that after we take these fruits, the tree is not killed.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Actually it is not killing. If you take some vegetables, take some leaves and twigs, but it is not killed.

Reporter lady: You also were talking about meditation, and I didn't understand what you said last night. You said that you don't meditate, that you do not meditate . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we don't meditate like others, artificially.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: We meditate actually. Just like this boy is working, this boy is working—that is meditation. He is working on Kṛṣṇa's tapes, so therefore "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa" is going on, automatically. They are cooking for Kṛṣṇa, they are worshiping Kṛṣṇa, they are recording for Kṛṣṇa, typing for Kṛṣṇa—everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is the best meditation.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Artificially if we sit down for fifteen minutes and thinking of something and meditating on something, that is artificial. What is the so-called meditation? What? They have no subject matter for meditation. Impersonal. They are concentrating their mind on some color, some change of color, and if you can concentrate your mind on some color, why not on Kṛṣṇa? He is so colorful.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Just see, (laughter) as soon as he is advised to concentrate his meditation on Kṛṣṇa, they will not agree. They will agree to concentrate on some color change. This is their foolishness. And if you are concentrated on some creative color, artificially, so why not see the real color, Kṛṣṇa? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

They are accepting unnecessarily some troubles, that's all. Kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām (BG 12.5). They are trying to concentrate on something impersonal. That means they are accepting troubles, that's all. Kleśo 'dhikataras. Adhikatara means more troublesome.

Reporter lady: What is the relationship with the Hare Kṛṣṇa to K . . . Kaitanya?

Devotees: Caitanya.

Reporter lady: Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya.

Reporter lady: Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, five hundred years ago He started this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement very vigorously in Bengal. Not Bengal; all over India.

Reporter lady: He started it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is to be understood as the father of this movement.

Reporter lady: And despite the fact that it started five thousand years ago?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why five . . .? It is perpetually. Five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa spoke very definitely on Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it was going on in India. Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is coming since a very long time.

Everyone knows, every Indian, Hindu especially, they know this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. They chant also in village to village. There is groups for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa still.

Reporter lady: Some people have considered Kaitanya . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Caitanya.

Reporter lady: Caitanya to be a Hindu. Do you have any relationship with Hinduism?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Just like you call our men as Hindus because they are dressed like Hindus. Just like you are also dressed like . . . so if you become accustomed to this habit and people may call you Hindu.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: That is a mistake. But we are neither Hindus nor Muslims nor Christians; we are servant of God, servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is our real identity. According to Hindus, the Europeans, Americans, they are mlecchas, yavanas.

Reporter lady: They are what?

Prabhupāda: Mleccha. Mleccha means untouchable.

Reporter lady: Untouchable?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

(aside) What is the meaning of mleccha?

Devotee: Degraded person.

Prabhupāda: Uh?

Devotee: Degraded person.

Prabhupāda: Degraded. Yes. So . . . but we don't consider anyone degraded, because anyone who takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is more than a brāhmin. He's not a mleccha. Otherwise, even if he is born in a brāhmin family, he is degraded if he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They just go on using . . . (indistinct)

Muci haya śuci haya yadi kṛṣṇa bhaje, śuci haya muci haya yadi kṛṣṇa tyaje means the cobbler . . . in India, a cobbler is considered the lowest of the society. The cobbler becomes a brāhmin, the highest of the society if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Similarly, śuci haya muci haya yadi kṛṣṇa tyaje: if one gives up Kṛṣṇa consciousness, even though he is born in a brāhmin family, he becomes a cobbler.

Because he considers only the skin. Cobbler's business is to test the skin, tannery. So if anyone is interested in the skin, he is no better than cobbler.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Do you understand?

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Cobbler means tannery expert.

Devotee: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Nowadays it is a great office, tannery expert.

Reporter lady: But does Hare Kṛṣṇa have the caste system?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: Does Hare Kṛṣṇa accept the caste system?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like we are creating brāhmins. Caste system is by quality.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . that is a . . . a statement, a statement in Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Caste system is created by God according to qualities and work. By division, division of labor.

Yes. One who is engaged in the scriptural consciousness, they are called brāhmins. One who is engaged in administration affairs, he is called kṣatriya. One who is engaged in business and productive affairs, he is called vaiśya. And one who cannot do anything except give some service, he is called śūdra. This division is all over the world. You may call it or not, but such division is existing everywhere.

Reporter lady: But can anyone leave his caste and go into the brāhmin's, and they become Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Anyone who is fit for entering into the kingdom of God, he must be a brāhmin. Without brahminical qualification, how he can enter into the spiritual kingdom? So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is also training the students to become brāhmin. Because without becoming brāhmin, how you can understand Brahman?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: In other words, Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that the caste system is there, but anybody who becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . within Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we do not think somebody is lower. If I am Kṛṣṇa conscious and I'm doing the lowest work, I'm not considered low. Because the work is the meditation, because I'm doing it for Kṛṣṇa. But there is, within Kṛṣṇa consciousness; but outside, God has orders . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Besides that, in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that, "You are My beloved friend and devotee." But Arjuna was neither a brāhmin or a sannyāsī or brahmacārī or a man engaged in austerities. He was gṛhastha, a householder, politician, but still Kṛṣṇa accepted him as a great devotee, bhakto 'si (BG 4.3). So devotee, to become devotee does not depend on his material division of life. It is transcendental, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is already on the Brahman stage.

Reporter lady: Erm, if one wanted to be involved in Hare Kṛṣṇa, does one have to give up if he was working, or going to school? Would they have to stop?

Prabhupāda: No.

Reporter lady: You mean even if I, if a reporter wanted to do anything, would they be a reporter?

Prabhupāda: No. You haven't got to change your position; still you can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Simply you have to hear about Kṛṣṇa. That is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu—that one does not require to change his position, he is to love Kṛṣṇa by hearing through proper source, then everything will be done. It is not required that he has to change his position.

Reporter lady: And doing all work or whatever for Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: By hearing you understand. As you go on understanding you will do the needful, no doubt.

Reporter lady: I don't understand, "Do the needful."

Prabhupāda: Because he is hearing, by hearing, hearing, he is becoming learned, experienced. As he becomes experienced, he does the needful out of his own accord.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It would be very nice, in the beginning, you would include a definition of "Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

Reporter lady: (indistinct) . . . (laughter)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is not a sect or religion.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we allow everyone to come and hear about Kṛṣṇa without changing his position, and as he learns, as he becomes advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he himself makes the necessary changes.

Reporter lady: Which are what, though?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter lady: Which are . . . what are they, the necessary changes?

Prabhupāda: Necessary changes . . . just like you saw me first yesterday, I've . . . you've changed your dress. I did not ask you to do it.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: I did not ask you to put on a sārī. By the association you become like that. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ (BG 2.62). If you associate with devotees, then you become devotee. If you associate with drunkards, then you will be drunkard. So association is very important factor.

So our opening of different centers means we are giving the facility of association with devotees. That is the purpose of opening centers. Any outsider comes and sees the behavior of these devotees, the chanting and the worship of the Deities, their mode of life, eating . . . these are all facilities for any layman to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Reporter lady: And if one becomes a brāhmin, will one be reborn again, or will one reach a . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. If in this life one understands what is Kṛṣṇa, then he goes back to Kṛṣṇa, in the Kṛṣṇa-loka. Simply by understanding what is Kṛṣṇa, that's all.

Reporter lady: And he won't have to come back?

Prabhupāda: No.

Reporter lady: And if you don't understand, you might come back as a dog or a human or whatever?

Prabhupāda: No. He does not go to Kṛṣṇa-loka, he remains here. He remains here in this material world, and if he remains in this material world, there is chance of getting the body of a dog or the body of a demigod, according to his work.

Reporter lady: How does Hare Kṛṣṇa give up marriage, and children?

Prabhupāda: Marriage is . . . marriage is recommended. We get our boys and girls married. We don't allow to remain as friends. No. That is illicit. Marriage is in our program. In Bhagavad-gītā it is recommended. Sex life in marriage is Kṛṣṇa, and actually we are having—if you sometimes come to Los Angeles—you'll find small children, how they are Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Reporter lady: Do they go to school?

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got our own school program at Dallas. But up to three, four years they remain with their parents. Nothing is prohibited, but unless it is dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we take it as dead end, a lump of matter.

The same example: just like the beautiful body, eh, very young, beautiful body. It is . . . it is youthful so long the consciousness is there. Is it not? If the body has no consciousness, nobody cares for that youthful body. Therefore the body is not important; consciousness is important.

Reporter lady: What about drugs?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter lady: What about drugs?

Prabhupāda: Drug is nonsense. We have already said that we don't allow our students to be intoxicated.

Reporter lady: So then what about smoking or . . .?

Prabhupāda: Everything is nonsense.

Reporter lady: Hah! (laughs)

Prabhupāda: According to our definition, they are all sinful activities. And so long one is addicted to sinful activities, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa or Brahman.

Reporter lady: Now what is going to happen on Saturday, at the festival? Are you going to have a big sort of wagon with fruits and things you did in San Francisco?

Viṣṇujana: On one we have.

Reporter lady: But I mean but what . . . what shall I say is going to happen?

Viṣṇujana: First, from 1.30 to 3.30 we are going to take the deities, Jagannātha Swami, from the temple, then parade with Him down to the Park, Balboa Park, then there will be kīrtana all with chanting and the drums and kartāls, and there will be displays of all these posters, displays of all His Divine Grace's books, and displays of all our different incense and things that we manufactured and maintained and spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There will be a four-course feast: with one sweet, some vegetables and some savories and drink . . . (indistinct) . . . then at four, 4 p.m. His Divine Grace will arrive. Afterwards, lecturing.

Reporter lady: Do people have to pay money to get in?

Viṣṇujana: No. That's not required, but we kindly accept any offering.

Reporter lady: How . . . I just have one more question: how does . . . do people in the Hare Kṛṣṇa, if they need money to buy anything, how do they support themselves?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa supplies.

Reporter lady: Huh! (laughs) Is that by offering?

Prabhupāda: Do you think that we are made of money?

Reporter lady: Hah! (laughs) No, I don't. That's why I'm working now.

Prabhupāda: (laughter) You are working so hard to get money, and we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is supplying money.

Viṣṇujana: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: And like if you simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you will also get money.

Reporter lady: Hah! (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God. He cannot supply money? Do you think like that?

Reporter lady: No.

Prabhupāda: No, then what is your idea? God is all-powerful, all-opulent, He has got all the riches. So how is that He cannot supply money if His devotees require it?

Devotee: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: Just like I came here with $7, now we are spending $70,000 per month. Kṛṣṇa is supplying money. But we don't spoil the money in sense gratification, and that is the difference between an ordinary man getting money and our getting money. Our money, each farthing is spent for Kṛṣṇa, not for sense gratification.

Reporter lady: Not for what?

Prabhupāda: Sense gratification. Material world, as soon as he gets money, he brings bottle of whiskey and goes to the nightclub. But as soon as we get money we publish one Kṛṣṇa book or open a center. That is the difference.

Reporter lady: How many centers have you now?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter lady: You have 105? In the United States?

Prabhupāda: No, in the United States we have got about fifty.

Reporter lady: And do you have about that many in Europe?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter lady: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you for coming.

Reporter lady: (about prasādam) Do you drink it? Or do you . . . is that way?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . milk. That's milk.

Reporter lady: That's good. What's in it? (laughs)

Devotee: Ghee and sugar.

Reporter lady: Sugar.

Prabhupāda: You see this nice foodstuff is supplied by cows, and we kill cows.

Reporter lady: You don't.

Prabhupāda: We don't, but I mean to say human beings.

Reporter lady: Um-huh.

Prabhupāda: They are so ungrateful. We drink the breast milk of our father (mother), and then we like to kill her.

Reporter lady: No.

Prabhupāda: Why the cow should be killed? She is mother. She is giving milk. Everyone is drinking cow's milk, and if the cow is again being sent to the slaughterhouse, is that very good proposition? Is that humanitarian?

Reporter lady: Hmm, I guess not. But the one thing I don't understand is exactly what . . . Christians have the Ten Commandments which they take, their..

Prabhupāda: But they don't follow it.

Reporter lady: No. But what . . . what exactly, if I wanted to explain in that . . . to our . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like . . .

Reporter lady: What are your basic tenets, or beliefs?

Prabhupāda: So we believe that . . . our point is that you become lover of God. We don't say that, "This religion is better than that religion."

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: We say in the religion there is hint of God consciousness. So we want to see whether you are becoming God conscious or not by following your religion. Just like in Christian religion there is commandment, "Thou shall not kill," but we see all the Christians are engaged in killing. So what kind of Christian he is? What do you think?

Reporter lady: Well, they wouldn't be a good Christian.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter lady: But do you believe that everything in the world is alive, like the chairs and rocks and everything? I mean, is there a level . . . a part of God?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: She says, is everything part of God and alive, meaning is there . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Not alive. God . . . everything is part of God, just like . . . just try to understand. This finger is part of my body, and this nail is also part of my body, but when you cut the nail there is no blood, and you don't feel any pain, but you cut your finger just a little bit, there is blood and there is pain. Why?

Reporter lady: Because that's more alive than this.

Prabhupāda: Anyway. But it . . . the nails is this part; everything is part of my body. So everything is part of God.

Reporter lady: But some things are more alive . . .

Prabhupāda: Some things are called dead matter, and something is called living entity.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Chair is not a living entity.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is dead matter.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: But it is part of God. Everything is part of God.

Reporter lady: Well . . .

Devotee (2): But the tree from which the chair came from was a living entity.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: That is also explained. The nail is coming from the living entity. It is not coming otherwise.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This body could become . . . it is dead. This is matter. The living entity is within, is within, inside.

Devotee (2): If it is breathing, it reproduces . . .

Prabhupāda: Living is the mechanical action of the body.

Devotee (2): There's five things, and reproduction..

Devotee (3): Where there is a living entity . . . where there is a living entity there's six things: there is birth, growth, sustenance, stay for a while, then it reproduces something, then it dwindles and finally it dies. So those are the symptoms of a living entity.

Prabhupāda: Living entity, so far as the body is concerned. These changes are of the body, not of the living entity.

Reporter lady: Okay. And . . . so then you said that when one attains to brāhma, that one goes back to the original . . .

Prabhupāda: To become brāhmin means he is in knowledge.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: He is perfectly in knowledge, what is what. That is called brāhma.

Reporter lady: Hmm. But . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: We are not after attaining brāhmaṇism.

Reporter lady: (indistinct) . . . when you die, you want to go . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: I don't die, I change body.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Just like you have changed your dress. You have not died. Similarly, we change our dress; we do not die.

Reporter lady: Hmm.

Prabhupāda: The change of dress, the dress is transformed in different positions, as explained by these: birth . . . change, by-products, dwindling—that is just transformation of the body, not of the soul. Therefore death means death of this body, not of the soul.

Reporter lady: Hmm. Well, thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: So write a nice article . . .

Reporter lady: Okay.

Prabhupāda: . . . so that people may be attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Reporter lady: What do you . . .

Prabhupāda: That would be a great service to Kṛṣṇa, God.

Reporter lady: Where . . . you go to New York from San Diego?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter lady: Are you going to New York from San Diego?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Next I'm going to New York, from here.

Reporter lady: Well, thank you.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you eat all the food?

Reporter lady: I can't eat any more, but, it's so good.

Devotee: You can take it with you and eat it later.

Reporter lady: Okay. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (reporter leaves)

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was a radio station that was going to interview you. One of the technicians runs a machine . . . (indistinct) . . . show the temples and the Deities. He said it is not due to show this evening; maybe tomorrow evening we will give him a call tomorrow to let him know.

Prabhupāda: I am not . . .

Devotee: The Indians, the Indian people, Prakash, they said that you can come at seven-thirty. You told them eight-thirty, but maybe we can go a little earlier.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: We can go to the Indian people . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Devotee: And they have invited you to come at seven-thirty instead of at eight-thirty. An hour earlier.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Devotee: That's all right?

Prabhupāda: What is the time now?

Devotee (3): 6:08.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Devotee: Is there anything we can do? Anything we can get you now?

Prabhupāda: No.

Devotees: (offer obeisances) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct background talk and japa, someone has forgotten to switch the tape recorder off)

Devotee: Well, if we leave at seven, seven-thirty . . . between the temple and . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: There is another article in the paper today. Did anyone bring it over? Prabhupāda will want to see it.

Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . see it?

Devotee: No, they were leaving it there, and I asked what's the problem with bringing it over here . . .

Devotee (2): (indistinct) . . . this all needs sorting out. I've carried them all around the room once. We didn't have time . . . (indistinct)

Devotee (3): Don't touch it. Don't touch it.

Devotee (4): We have a broken wire here.

Prabhupāda: What time is this man coming to take us?

Śyāmasundara: At seven.

Prabhupāda: Is he coming?

Śyāmasundara: I don't know if, ah, if we are going or if he is coming. I don't know we are going there in our car or his.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: Yeah. I have to go over to the house. I think we should . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . nice center we have purchased . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: What is that, now? . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I didn't bring that one . . . (indistinct)

(long pauses)

(indistinct conversation)

Prabhupāda: There are so many things; it requires practice. (indistinct discussion with devotee) Bengali . . . that you can note down and consider it. (indistinct discussion with devotee)

Devotee: It's in English . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: They are bringing the car . . . (indistinct) . . . (end)