770417 - Conversation B - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770417R2-BOMBAY - April 17, 1977 - 38:14 Minutes

(Conversation with Yadubara after seeing film)

Prabhupāda: Nice. So how it is reacting amongst the public?

Yadubara: Well, the people seem to like it, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: They will like it.

Yadubara: I was surprised, but the karmīs, their attention is held throughout the film. They seem to enjoy it very much. And several people have said that "It is very clear now that we're not the body."

Prabhupāda: It will be a great service if you can educate . . . (indistinct) . . . yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). To keep them as animals is a great sin. Our Svarūpa Dāmodara has got this film?

Yadubara: No.

Prabhupāda: Not yet.

Yadubara: It just came out.

Prabhupāda: Oh. We can produce more detailed film later on.

Yadubara: You asked us to do that, make that one point, that we're not the body.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yadubara: In Māyāpur last year you asked me to make that one point, that we're not the body. So we tried to do that only.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That can be, and this . . . done that.

Yadubara: Do you think there should be any sequel to this, to this film? In other words, to carry on the philosophy?

Prabhupāda: No, you have given the evolution of from fish to plant, plant to insect, bird, animal. That can be little elaborated, evolution. Then human being, full consciousness. Now, this is the chance for understanding God. And if they are still kept in darkness like the animals, that's a dangerous civilization-refusing the opportunity to the humanity. By knowing this, you can get out of this continual evolutionary process. That is anti-material world, Vaikuṇṭha world, where you can actually live. Na jāyate na mriyate vā (BG 2.20). He does not take birth, neither dies, but dances with Kṛṣṇa. That is life. That we are wanting. We are seeking after. It is not possible here. Here you have to go through the evolutionary process again and again if you don't take the opportunity for going back to home, back to . . . then it is your misfortune. So this civilization keeping people in their unfortunate condition. Mām aprāpya nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). This opportunity is to understand God and go back to Him, but that opportunity is being refused. Therefore he is returning again to the same position of birth and death.

From animal to man, from man to . . . up and down. But dehāntara, that is very dangerous. Tathā dehāntara, you have to change your body. Stop this. If you are scientist, stop it. Continue as American forever. Why you cannot? Why you are so proud of your so-called scientific education? Then you are under control. You have constructed this skyscraper building. Live here forever. Why don't you live? Kicked out. In the same house can become a cockroach because you have got attachment. "All right. Live here as cockroach." Who can check it? Cockroach is also life. Dehāntara. The proprietor becomes cockroach. Can you check it? Nature will do. Now we are proprietor; next life a cockroach. "Live here in your skyscraper building." How much valuable time he has wasted by constructing this skyscraper building. He remains there in the photograph, and actually his life is in the commode. Cockroach. He is living in the commode, (chuckles) and his son's worshiping his photograph. This is . . . this is called ignorance. Very misleading civilization this is.

So we are trying to save everyone from this misleading civilization. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying ourself to be perfect and trying to teach others perfect life. Kṛṣṇa begins His teaching from this understanding, "You are not this body." This is beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. And in the bodily concept of life, where is spiritual knowledge? They talk of spiritual, that life is . . . first of all one has to understand that, "I am not this body." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Athāto brahma jijṣāsā. "Then if I am Brahman, then what is my value? So far I have led my bodily concept of life, but I am Brahman." Then brahma-jijṣāsā. Athāto brahma jijṣāsā. How Brahman lives, how Brahman is produced, what is his real life. So I think this film will be useful for Svarūpa Dāmodara.

Yadubara: We would like to try to get it in the schools, in high schools and colleges.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And ask them to read Bhagavad-gītā. They will get all information.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The movie should be given out with also a copy of Bhagavad-gītā along with it. To be a part of the package.

Prabhupāda: You can give in this . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhagavad-gītā, Sanskrit, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Or the English translation. You have got that abridged edition?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we don't have a copy of it here.

Prabhupāda: How is that you don't have copy? Find out . . . (indistinct comments by Tamāla Kṛṣṇa)

Yadubara: To show that on the film? At the end?

Prabhupāda: It is best to impress them, "You read this book; you get all information."

Yadubara: It's a little bit difficult to change the film.

Prabhupāda: No. That I am suggesting. If it is difficult, that is another thing. But this should be.

Yadubara: It should be there.

Prabhupāda: And actually, there is evidence.

Yadubara: What about reincarnation, Śrīla Prabhupāda? What about transmigration of the soul? 'Cause we were thinking to do that for a next film, because it seems like a very natural thing.

Prabhupāda: Transmigration, how it can be shown? The mind, intelligence and ego you cannot see. But you will have to accept there is mind.

Yadubara: We have not really worked out any details.

Prabhupāda: Details, you cannot show it. It is so fine. Just like here is the sky, but you cannot see it. The mind is finer than the sky. The air is sky. (claps) That is sky. Where is the proof? (claps) That you cannot see. Śabda, sound. Sound is the sign of presence of sky. But you cannot see it. But it is there. (claps) This is the proof.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It can be suggested only.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Therefore śruti, which is beyond the sense perception, you have to hear it from authorities. That is knowledge. Who has seen it? These rascals . . . who has seen it? So grossly educated they are. "Everything can be seen." Why everything? The same example we give. You have not seen your father. You have to hear, "Here is your father." That's all. That is the proof.

Yadubara: Just like in this last film, we suggested that there is a soul in the hand sequence—when the hands were always changing, and the body grows old. So the idea was that there is something that's not changing there. So in film there are certain techniques we can use to suggest, as Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Goswami said, certain ideas.

Prabhupāda: Idea, that idea is given there. Just like you cannot see the flavor, but still, you are smelling, some flavor is nice. In the air, it is rose flavor, it is passing. You cannot see what is that flavor and how it is being carried, but you can smell. Similarly, the soul is being carried by the mind, ego and intelligence. You cannot see it, but you have to understand by hearing from the authorities like Kṛṣṇa. Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). Beyond this material things, there is another prakṛti. That is the . . . that does not die. Na jāyate na mriyate (Bg. 2.20). And that is being carried by mind, intelligence and ego. By our gross eyes, we see the body is burnt into ashes, finished. Soul and everything is finished. The atheist will say like that. Bhasmi bhūtasya dehasya tataḥ punar āgamano bhavet. "If the body is already burnt into ashes, who is coming and who are going?" The atheists. Kṛṣṇa does not say. No. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. So will you accept the atheists or Kṛṣṇa? That is our process. The atheist will say: "It is burnt into ashes. Where, where is soul?" Kṛṣṇa says: "No," na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "He is not dead. He has gone to another body." Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Those who are sober, they are not disturbed.

So we have to become sober. These restless rascals, how they will become sober? Suppose a child is restless child, how you can convince him about philosophy? Sober man, cool-headed man, he can be convinced. So this is a childish civilization. This is not sober civilization. There is no full-brain man. All restless dogs and hogs. And they have taken it is first class, dogs and hogs. Actually, they are living dogs and hogs, and they are claiming civilized. There is no difference dogs' and hogs' life and the modern man. The dogs and hogs whole day work. Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate (SB 5.5.1). In London, in New York, early in the morning they will go to the work, put-put-put-put. They could not take rest even at night peacefully. The anxiety is, "If I do not reach early in the factory, I will . . . (indistinct) . . . the whole day's salary will be . . ." He is anxious. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām (SB 7.5.5). Always full of anxieties—asad grahāt—on account of this body. The same principle is being followed by the hogs, "Where is food, where is food?" So where is the difference, the hog civilization? Simply by dressing. If you dress a hog, he becomes human being? So they are after this dress. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni. They do not know what is his civilization, what is life—nothing. And when you go to preach, "Ah, we have to take from India knowledge, a poverty-stricken?" They do not know this is not that India, poverty-stricken. It is full of knowledge India, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then there is no poverty. Those who have left this knowledge, they are poverty-stricken. We are not poverty-stricken.

Yadubara: I would like to show the origins of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in India in the next film.

Prabhupāda: Origin? There is no origin. It is always there. Origin is Kṛṣṇa. He has always been. Aham evāsam agre, the Bhāgavata śloka. Where is that śloka, aham eva āsam agre? First part? Where is that Gītā-bhāṣya. You are doing nice. Go on doing like that. Try your best to convince. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). Out of many millions of men, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So what the lawyer says? What is his name?

Girirāja: Mr. Jethmalani. I said I would come and meet him. I also wanted to show him the movie. Although he said that, "I would prefer to come back here, because it is so nice." Actually, when he was . . . after he washed his hands, he looked out of the balcony, and he said that just from this atmosphere, one can feel a sense of ecstasy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those bara, would you like them, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I have taken two, more than two. I could have taken . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More. You had a good taste for them.

Prabhupāda: But I did not try it. Very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As a result of your restricting yourself to only two or three, we each got to taste one. Very palatable.

Prabhupāda: And the nim is very, very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: She says that she will make some further nim preparations for you for lunch.

Prabhupāda: Have śukta-nim also. Pick the nim. So this Karachi, he has given correct report. Very nice report. You have seen?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And he is very intelligent boy. Open this. This is the real United Nation. These rascals, they are barking simply for the last thirty years, and "United." Simply barking.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Simply more flags.

Prabhupāda: Simply barking. So I told it frankly that these are association of barking dogs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was a little surprised to hear such a strong statement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And actually it is a fact - some dogs barking, "I am bulldog," "I am this dog," "I am that dog." And they waste so much energy, money and time, simply for barking. The result is nothing, no United Nation. Every day a flag is coming. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). Bharam. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, bharam udvahate vimūḍhān. These rascals, they are making simply big, big arrangement, and the result is nothing. Bharam udvahate vimūḍhān. And they remain rascal. But attempt is very gorgeous, "Oh, United Nation. Three hundred thousand flags in the . . ." Just see! Honorable flags. They offer obeisances to the flag, not to God. Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ namaskuru. "No. Flag namaskuru." Just see how rascal they are. What he will gain by offering obeisances to the flag?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Born as a cockroach in that country.

Prabhupāda: And then by flit (a commercial insecticide) he will be killed. "No, no, sir, I am your countryman, I am countryman. I belong to the same nation." "Who cares for you, flies, cockroaches? Kill them. American flies, who cares for you?" "I was a staunch nationalist. Now I have become fly. Don't kill me." "Who cares for you?" Will they excuse American flies, American cockroaches? But dehāntara-prāpti. That you cannot avoid. Then where is your nationalism? Nation means one who has taken birth in that land. The cockroach, the flies, the animals, they also born in that land, but who cares for them? Dehāntara-prāpti. So you are great nationalist. But the body is changed. How can you save yourself, not become a cockroach? Because the body is changing. That is in the other's hand, Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). By superior supervision. It is not your choice. Here is dehāntara-prāpti. "Make me president body." "No, no, that is not your choice. You have to accept what I will give you. It will be just by your work, infection of the modes of nature." Daiva-netreṇa. This is a great science. They do not know anything. Instead of understanding their life fictitious, they are asking whether Kṛṣṇa is real or fictitious. Mūḍha. This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is fictitious, and on fictitious Kṛṣṇa the big, big ācāryas, they have written so many books. Just see their intelligence. He's a big lawyer. That is your intelligence. Big, big ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, such stalwarts. Their notes, apprising notes, how they have studied. And they have wasted their time on some fictitious? Caitanya Mahāprabhu has spoiled His life after a fictitious? How rascaldom.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you are spoiling your life, according to them. Then why is he coming here to see you?

Prabhupāda: Anyway, these rascals, we have to deal with these rascals. Whatever little service they can give us. Even Gandhi was of opinion that, "There was no Kṛṣṇa, there was no battle of Kurukṣetra. It is imagination."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Battlefield's the mind," he said.

Prabhupāda: Everyone takes Bhagavad-gītā as fictitious, and you can interpret in any way you like. That is the . . . this Swami Cinmayananda is also that class. He is a sādhu.

Girirāja: The lawyer asked me had I read the books of Swami Cinmayananda.

Prabhupāda: What did you reply?

Girirāja: Well, I said that we knew what his philosophy was, and that we were not impressed by it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He defines Kṛṣṇa as "The dark unknowing within." That's his definition of Kṛṣṇa, Swami Cinmayananda.

Prabhupāda: How you explain the unknown if you do not know? How do you speak "unknown"? You know or not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He doesn't define Kṛṣṇa. I mean he doesn't speak about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, anyone. If unknown, then how do you say unknown? You know. You know Him as unknown.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Contradiction.

Prabhupāda: Mohitaṁ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam (BG 7.13). This picture is very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where should it be hung?

Prabhupāda: Hung?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It would be nice if it could be hung where you could see it easily.

Prabhupāda: Just by the side it will be placed?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think it would fit there. It could be hung . . . hung up here.

Upendra: When you take prasādam.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very dancing form.

Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundara. Tribhaṅga-murāri.

premāṣjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti

yaṁ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpaṁ

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ . . .

(Bs. 5.38)

So you have brought some films?

Yadubara: Yes, I brought two of these cassette films of the new film, and one 16 millimeter. Three films in all. And then one Hare Kṛṣṇa People and also Spiritual Frontier.

Prabhupāda: So we can see them. Jaya.

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)