770218 - Conversation B - Mayapur

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770218R2-MAYAPUR - February 18, 1977 - 50:47 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . the words of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Do not forget. Hmm. Any others? What He has said about the Western people?

Hari-śauri: The further west you go, the more demoniac they become.

Prabhupāda: You cannot speak? Paścimera loka saba mūḍha anācāra (CC Adi 10.89). Find out this verse, where it is.

Jayapatākā: Western are all are like asses?

Prabhupāda: No, not asses. Yes, mūḍhas. (chuckles) And anācāra, misbehaved.

Jayapatākā: Anācāra, misbehavior.

Prabhupāda: Misbehaved. So this is the words of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. From India, the more you go to the western side, you'll find all fools, rascals and misbehaved. Paścimera loka saba mūḍha anācāra. If you become impartial, you'll understand Him. Not clean, eating all, everything nonsense, they do not . . . have no brain to understand spiritual life. Are they not mūḍha anācāra? Hmm? What do you think?

Jayapatākā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is wrongly said by . . .? So you should be convinced that the Western people, they have no brain. Now this is brain-giving movement, para-upakāra. They have no brain, and we have to educate them. Brain there is. The human brain is meant for that purpose. Even one is an ass, dull, he can be educated. That is there. Animals cannot be educated, but human being, even he is born like animal . . . just like these children. If you don't educate them, they will remain like that, fools and rascals. If you educate, they'll be nice. So they require to cleanse their brain. Why they are . . .? That we have to prove. This is the opportunity. They should admit honestly that they have no brain. Now this movement is brain-giving movement. Hmm? You are Tripurāri. Tripura was the place for the demon, and ari, ari means enemy. You should know very well. The Western people are very much proud of manufacturing very complicated machines. They sometimes report, "We have manufactured this. We have manufactured this." Do they not say?

Hari-śauri: Yes all the time.

Prabhupāda: But why not understand this complicated machine? Can they manufacture this machine? It is machine. Bhagavad-gītā says. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). It is machine. Now understand this machine. Produce. They are trying. What is they call? Brain, artificial brain. They have no brain, and they are manufacturing brain. What is that brain? Nobody can say. They have artificial man just like . . .

Jayapatākā: Frankenstein.

Prabhupāda: Frankenstein.

Satsvarūpa: So if they themselves have no brain, they can't produce a brain.

Prabhupāda: But they are trying, such brainless. They have no brain, and they're trying to make another brain.

Hari-śauri: Svarūpa Dāmodara mentioned about that place he went to in that university in Boston.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They have a whole department called Artificial Intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Spending millions and millions in America. You know that? Where it is being done?

Hari-śauri: I think he said it was in Boston.

Prabhupāda: In MIT.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. And when he asked them what was the purpose, they said: "Well, it's fun."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: He asked what the purpose was, they said, "Well, it's fun."

Prabhupāda: Fun?

Hari-śauri: Fun.

Satsvarūpa: Amusement.

Hari-śauri: It's amusement.

Prabhupāda: But they unnecessarily spending money. So they have spent unnecessarily for the moon expedition. Money, if you do not know, you'll spend it for unnecessary purpose. That is they are doing. So give them brain, and this money can be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have got money. Why they are trying to manufacture artificial intelligence? What is the purpose?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They want to be able to imitate God.

Prabhupāda: Then God is there. (laughs) You have to accept. If you want to imitate God, then God is there. That is our propaganda, not this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they say artificial intelligence, it means that there is a real intelligence. And if they're trying to make artificial intelligence, someone must have made real intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Real intelligence you see in the flower, how intelligently colorful it is made. Every nature study. Study this machine, how intelligent. And just the hand, coming up, this finger, because we have to capture something, the nail is required. If it would have been all skin, you could not capture. How . . . and every machine is coming automatically. You study your body. And if the same machine, produce a machine like that, automatically coming out, one thing, male machine, one female machine, and they'll bring another machine. Where is that thing? And here God has made such a nice machine. He says, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni (BG 18.61). That is also not made by God. It is made by God's agent, māyā. Now see how God is intelligent. God's servant māyā, God says: "Give him a machine like that." Immediately she gives, supplies. Clearly says, bhrāmayan sar . . . "He wants to still travel in this material world, bhrāmayan. He wants to go there. Then all right, give him a machine." He's so kind. He's sitting within your heart. You want to do something. And He's so kind, because you are son, beloved, He says: "These are not required. Better come back. Live peacefully." You'll not hear: "No. I . . ." Just like naughty child. "All right, Māyā, give him. Give him." This is meaning. Hmm? What is that? Read it.

Hari-śauri:

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

(BG 18.61)

"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy."

Prabhupāda: Supplied by māyā, machine, this, that. He has nothing to do. Karaṇ . . . this is also Vedic mantra: na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). Just like I am an ordinary man. If I want to do something, I ask one of you, "Do this." I ask somebody, "Bring some money." I ask somebody that, "You do this." So if an ordinary man can do, why God should do anything? Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. He has nothing to do. Na tat-samaś cābhyadhikaś ca dṛśyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). He can do everything, because nobody is equal to Him. But still does not do anything. Why? Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. His energy are so mighty millions that simply by indicating the energy, it will do. This is God. This is God. Just like big man, big industrialist, he simply pushes his button, and the secretary comes: "I want this." Immediately. This is ordinary human being can do. So why God has to do? He'll simply dance with the gopīs. That's all. That is God. He'll enjoy. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitā . . . (BS 5.37). That is God. Therefore everything is done by God's agent or His expansion. Otherwise God has nothing to do. Na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. Simply indication. Here it is said that Īśvara, the Lord, is situated in everyone's heart. He can understand, "What this rascal wants." He's so kind, He's living as friend. "My dear son, please come back. Why you are desiring so many nonsense things?" But the child will not hear. He wants. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare (Prema-vivarta). He wants sense gratification this way, that way, that way, that way. So He gives him facility, "All right." And all facility. He wants to become a tiger: "All fixed." Nails, jaws, fangs—"Become a tiger." Yantra. The body is yantra, perfect yantra. That is supplied by māyā. Māyā. Daiva-netreṇa. He wants this, to give up this body. This machine is dead. Now you simply think of a tiger, and you are carried to the womb of the tiger. And the mother gives the body of a tiger. He comes out, enjoys. This is transmigration. The art is so fine. (hammering sound) What is this sound?

Jayapatākā: The electric cable from the generator; they're putting clamps on the building.

Prabhupāda: Just try to understand how transmigration, that tyaktvā deham. Tathā dehāntara. How dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13) is . . . He has proposed, or desired, "If I could have possessed such body . . ." "If I could have gone in heavenly planets . . ." "If I could have become tiger . . ." In this way he's desiring. Hañā māyāra dāsa kari' nānā abhilāṣa. (referring to worker making noise:) That's all right. Let him work. Otherwise . . .

Jayapatākā: I can have him do all the . . . another system.

Prabhupāda: So māyā means simply you are desiring one after another, one after another, one after another, one after another. Hmm? Who will find out this verse? Hañā māyāra dāsa kari' nānā abhilāṣa. Where it is?

Jayapatākā: A song?

Prabhupāda: Caitanya-caritāmṛta. So we're desiring one after, one after, one after, one after . . . the last desire . . . because if you become addicted to certain types of desire, that is prominent at the time of death. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram, sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ (BG 8.6). So māyā's machine is immediately prepared. That mind—manaḥ buddhiḥ ahaṅkāra. Subtle. You cannot see. You see the body is burning, finished. Rascal, that is not finished. Na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). It is not finished. There is subtle body. The subtle body carries. The example is just like flavor of rose garden carries, similarly, the desire is carried, and he requires a machine to ride on, particular. So there are eighty-four million machines, and the, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1), by the supervision of māyā, carried to this mother's womb. The soul is injected through the semina of the father, and he enters the womb of the mother, and mother gives the ingredients, develops his body, and as soon as it is complete, comes out. Where is the difficulty to understand this transmigration of the soul? These rascals have no brain. That verse I have explained this morning.

Hari-śauri: From the Bhāgavatam?

Prabhupāda: But they have no brain to understand this. No, no. Not this volume. The Tenth Canto I am explaining now.

Hari-śauri: Tenth Canto.

Prabhupāda: How nature is working, māyayā, they have no . . . they are studying gross science. Actually science means how nature is working. But how nature is working, they do not know, and they are very much proud. "Nature's study . . ." They say they have studied nature, but they do not know how. Here it is said, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). This machine is made by nature. Do you know how it is made? So where is your brain? This is a machine, and everyone knows this machine is made by nature. So how do you know? How do you know? Then where is your brain? You are concerned with the typewriting machine—"cuta-cuta-cut." Study this machine. Produce a machine like this. Then where is your brain? What do they answer? What do they answer? They are trying?

Brahmānanda: Future.

Prabhupāda: So in our Back to Godhead these things should be demonstrated, not that imitating that technological position, like this. These things should be . . . if you have got intelligence, this description what I am giving you, that should be explained. This nonsense should be stopped. That means we are imitating them. Explain this, how, yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61), how this machine is being made by māyā. Then we shall give them brain. So be intelligent and try to give brain. And if you remain dull-brained like that, then you'll say: "Yes, yes, you are right." You are not right. Every step we shall . . . "You are not right. You are wrong. You have no brain." That should be our idea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very outspoken. Outspoken.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. "You are all rascals. Prepare a machine like . . . this is machine, Bhagavad-gītā. Prepare a machine. Make a female machine and male machine and produce innumerable machine. Then we shall understand that you have got brain." And actually you are seeing. How is that? A male machine and female machine combine together—another machine?

Satsvarūpa: They have some machines that have better memories, and can do things that human mind can't do.

Prabhupāda: Again you . . . again we . . . how is that?

Satsvarūpa: They could challenge that nature's machine is very wonderful, but they can make a machine out of metal and electronics . . .

Prabhupāda: "They can make."

Satsvarūpa: There are such machines that have better memory and can figure . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that better memory?

Satsvarūpa: Well, even a calculator can immediately multiply some . . .

Prabhupāda: But calculator machine, another man is working, so where is brain, calculating? The machine is made by another man, and it is being worked by another man, so where is the brain in the calculator? That is . . . so you are misled immediately. Bluff.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Word jugglery. Simply a word jugglery.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Yes. What is the value of that? The machine is made by another brain, and it is being worked over by another brain. And who has made that brain who has made the machine? That is māyā. Then ultimately you have to come to māyā. And who is giving direction? Big brain, Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). He is making machine—carācaram. Yasyājñayā . . . sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā (BS 5.44). Māyā is Durgā, the superintending deity of this whole, whole universe. And she is Durgā, therefore called. "Very difficult." Duḥ-gā. You can approach her very, with difficulty. Duḥ. Duḥ means duḥkha. You cannot understand even Durgā, so what to speak of the Supreme Person who is giving directions to this . . .? Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya . . . (BS 5.44), chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā. She has no independent intelligence. She is working like chāyā. Just like here, chāyā. This is moving; this is moving.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shadow.

Prabhupāda: Shadow. The shadow has no power to move. Chāyeva. How nice example. Although Durgā, the material nature, is so powerful, she is powerful in that way, as much the shadow is powerful. Chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti. Again explained, icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate (BS 5.44). "Whatever she is doing, she is doing according to the desire of the Supreme." Govindam ādi-puruṣam: "O Govinda, You are the Supreme." Everything is there. Everything is explained in Brahma-saṁhitā. Ultimately, govindam ādi-puruṣam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally, in the court cases that we've had against our Society, they only question our method of preaching. But this is the first case where they are questioning what we are preaching. It's the first time I have seen it. Usually they're simply arguing over "You should distribute books like this or not like this." But now they are questioning what is in the books.

Prabhupāda: Explain. If you can explain Bhagavad-gītā nicely, then his father will understand. Where is that impediment? Ask them that "You are very proud of manufacturing very subtle machine, but can you prepare a machine like this? It is . . ." What will be the possible answer? If you challenge, then what will be the possible answer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They all avoid the issue. When they don't have an answer, they simply change the subject.

Prabhupāda: So why you allow him to? "Why you change?" (break)

Ādi-keśava: They say you're talking about religion . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not religion. It is . . . I'm talking of machine. Religion, you do not know what is religion. That we shall talk later on. First of all come to machine. Religion . . . what you will know about religion? You are animal. So what you will know? Animal has no religion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll take that as an insult.

Prabhupāda: Yes, insult. The animals should be kicked with shoes and stick. Argumentum baculum. There is no argument for animals. Kick and stick. Beat him. That is the way of dealing with animal. You cannot request an animal very . . . "My dear dog, please do not bark. Sit down." Simply kick and give him stick. That is good. They're animal. Gentle behavior with gentleman, not with the animal. "You are so big, big animal, you are simply to be kicked and whipped. Then you'll come to your senses." Religion . . . religion is farce. First of all explain why you cannot do this machine. You are very proud of machine-making, artificial. "Why artificial intelligence? Why not real intelligence?" Intelligence also material. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhiḥ (BG 7.4). The buddhi. It is material, subtle form of material energy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It is coming," they'll say, "in the future."

Prabhupāda: Again "coming," "in future." You are misled by these rascal words. Even if you do in future, what credit is there? It is already there. Why I shall wait for the future? It is already there. If some . . . we are sannyāsīs, begging, so if you go to somebody—he says: "Yes, I'll pay you one hundred rupees in future. I am trying to get the money"—shall you wait for that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Means no payment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I'll go to a man who has got already. Why shall I wait for you? Even if you are so sure that in future you'll be able to manufacture a machine, a human body, so already you are trying to check the population. It is being produced so profusely that what will be credit for you even if you manufacture, rascals? (laughter) Even if you manufacture in future, then what is the credit for you? Here millions of machines coming automatically, you are trying to check it. What is the credit? Hmm? Bhavānanda, you . . .?

Prabhupāda: Oh, you cannot do. Hele dhorte parena keute! (He can't even catch the buff striped keelback snake, he is expecting to catch the cobra.)

Bhavānanda: One that will not die.

Prabhupāda: You know hele keute? (Buff striped keelback snake or Cobra?)

Bhavānanda: Hele?

Prabhupāda: There is a snake in the water.

Jayapatākā: The hellish snake.

Prabhupāda: Hellish? Hele, hele, hele, hele snake.

Jayapatākā: Hele snake. It doesn't have any poison.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So one snake charmer, he cannot capture that hele snake, and he is expecting to capture cobra. Hele dhorte parena keute! (He can't even catch the buff striped keelback snake, he is expecting to catch the cobra.) I challenge them that, "First of all make one egg, a small egg. (laughter) Make some chemicals and give it to the incubator and let the chicken come." The rascals, they cannot do that.

Ādi-keśava: So they were saying: "I will not make an egg now. In twenty years I will make you a chicken."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Ādi-keśava: They say: "I can't make an egg now, but in twenty years I'll make you a chicken."

Prabhupāda: Without egg where is chicken? Where is that example? Why you are talking again like foolish man, rascal? Without egg where is the chicken? So challenge them like that. Prove them that they have no brain. So there is immediately, automatically . . . "You have no brain. Where is the question of brainwash?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a good one. This will be . . . this will astound them. It will put them back twenty foot. They won't know what to reply. They're coming in one way, and you're giving them a whole other . . .

Brahmānanda: This is not a defense, it's an offense. You're not saying defending, you're making an attack. You're not apologizing that, "We're not brainwashing." We're saying: "You don't have a brain to begin with."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is wash? Mure matha niye uttare suo. (Turn your head to the northern side and sleep.) In Bengali there is one word. In Bengal it is . . . (indistinct) . . . to keep the head on the northern side.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Keep the . . .

Prabhupāda: Head lying. No. "Keeping the head northern side." Uttar dike matha korto, (Keep his head on the northern side.) So if one man was asked that "Don't keep your head on the northern side," he says: "I have no head. Where is the question of uttara dike?" Mathai nei. (Doesn't have a head.) So first of all prove that you have got brain, then the question of brainwash. You have no brain. You are all dull stone. Where is the question of brainwashing? Prove them. This is very nice. Humorous, at the same time very nice. People will observe. Prove that they have no brain.

Jayapatākā: It will make headline.

Prabhupāda: Heh?

Jayapatākā: It will make headline.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, the thing is, though, when we say things like this, they take it that it is so absurd that they don't even take it seriously. When you make a statement that "You have no brains," when you say that to a so-called learned man . . .

Prabhupāda: No, where is brain? "Show. You are manufacturing so many machines." Challenge this, "Where is this machine?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their conception of what intelligence is is completely different than our conception.

Prabhupāda: That means they have no brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would argue . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like a child's conception is different from the father. That means he has not developed the brain. That is only answer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't accept that God consciousness is . . .

Prabhupāda: So then . . . they may not accept, but the fact is there. You can challenge this, that this body's machine. Apart from what is the energy that is moving the machine, but it is machine, we accept. So you prepare a machine like that. Where is that machine?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll say that, "You also cannot."

Prabhupāda: I do not say that we are very good brain. We are servant of God. We have nothing to show, any brain. Our brain will be shown by our master. Our position is God. So we are not very much anxious to show our . . . but you are godless rascals. You want to show your brain—show me machine. We have all accepted that supreme brain is Kṛṣṇa and we are servant. That is our position. We don't say that, "Independent. There is no God." We don't. You say that. We are working under superior brain. So the case has to be proved by you, not by us. What is called? Onus? What is that, onus?

Brahmānanda: Burden of proof.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your duty, not us. You have to prove it. (break) And now don't go to the court with any other dress. Preach like this. Preach there with this dress. Have they any objection with this dress?

Hari-śauri: In this dress.

Ādi-keśava: I agree. I think it is very good that they see us dressed like this in court.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we should . . .

Ādi-keśava: They will understand what we are.

Prabhupāda: We should.

Hari-śauri: We have to represent our religion properly.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A priest will not put on a suit.

Ādi-keśava: In fact one time . . . even the last time I went . . .

Prabhupāda: No, whatever is done, done. Now you make a difference. In any case, we shall go in this dress.

Hari-śauri: (aside:) Tell Rāmeśvara that, too.

Prabhupāda: They requested me to change the dress. I have . . . Ramakrishna Mission that, "Unless you dress yourself . . ." "I have no money. You give me three dress for public, then I shall do it. I know how to dress. In my business life I was dressing like that, but now I have no money. You give me money." (laughter) I told them that. (laughs) "I know how to dress like a gentleman. Every day it must be changed, must be nicely ironed. But I have no money. You need not require to teach me. I know how to dress like an European gentleman. And I have no money." (break) . . . coat, same pant, same hat—I do not like that. If I dress like an European, I must change daily. Do they not? A respectable European?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, every day.

Prabhupāda: Yes, morning and evening.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like a Deity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So "I know that, but I have no money," I replied to that Mr. Mukerjee. He lives near that University. Columbus? Columbia?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Columbia.

Prabhupāda: He's a teacher there. So he came to see me in the 100th Street West, and he requested me, "Swāmījī, if you move in this dress, nobody will respect you." "It doesn't matter."

Brahmānanda: Who was this?

Prabhupāda: One Mr. Mukerjee. (aside) What is that?

Jayapatākā: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: So call him. That's all. (break) First of all say, "You have no brain."

Hari-śauri: If we present these points in the right way, then we'll have to make them consider these points as being valid. They can . . . 'cause there's so many things in our literature that they can just not believe and claim as just plain ridiculous, but by your presentation it becomes acceptable.

Prabhupāda: You talk with them again. They're intelligent. You can talk, yes. It is recorded again, again.

Hari-śauri: Yes. I'm making spares of all these tapes, so they can take them back with them and listen to them.

Prabhupāda: All tell, "You have no brain. So where is the question of brainwash?" That you have to prove that, "You have no brain. You are all dull-headed, animals." This is our challenge. "And animals cannot . . . their brain cannot be washed. But washed, I have brain, yes . . . because a human being, we have tried. At the present you have no brain. All useless."

Hari-śauri: But, you say, by presenting this to the court, then they'll have to prove, or they'll have to try and disprove or establish that they have a brain, and then the whole thing come out, what is actual intelligence and what is simply cats and dog intelligence.

Pradyumna: Then we say also ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). We say "washing."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is brainwashing, yes. It is required. But at the present moment you have no brain. You have got stool in your head. So it has to be washed. What is the wrong there? If you give "machine," you say "machine," we say it, "machine," this body. This body is a machine. You also accept; I also accept. But you, can you produce a machine like that? If the person who has made the machine, He has got brain, you have no brain. And that is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). This is cara, moving machine, and there is standing machine. Just like tree, that is also a machine.

Pradyumna: Like?

Prabhupāda: Tree. It is standing machine. It is collecting water from the root of the tree, throughout the tree. Can you make machine, coconut tree, collecting water and supplying to the top fruit? Where is that machine? It is a machine. So what brain you have got?

Hari-śauri: Chicken brain.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Chicken brain.

Prabhupāda: You cannot do that also.

Hari-śauri: (laughs) No. Their brain is like that.

Prabhupāda: They have no brain.

Hari-śauri: You said in Washington that they will have to give their doctorates and degrees to the chickens . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: . . . because the chickens are better than them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They can produce life in a few days.

Pradyumna: And if they say that "Yes, we have a brain. We use it . . . we make very nice civilization . . ."

Prabhupāda: What is that civilization?

Pradyumna: . . . then we say they're animal.

Prabhupāda: Animal civilization—eating, sleeping . . .

Pradyumna: Eating, sleeping, mating.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This civilization is there in the cats and dogs. Civilization is that when there is something more than the cats and dogs. What you have got? That is brain. How to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex life—the dog has got such brain. Even that . . . you cannot produce a machine like the dog also. Can you make a machine like the dog? Then where is your brain?

Hari-śauri: They can't even produce the simplest single-celled living entity . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: . . . what to speak of anything else.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Even an amoeba they can't produce.

Prabhupāda: I have said in the Bhāgavataverse in the BTG that "You can make 747, but you cannot make a mosquito."

Hari-śauri: And they can't supply the pilot either.

Prabhupāda: Yes. With pilot the body is there. And he knows the art, how to bite you instantly. He immediately injects his, that little fiber within the hole of the hair. Immediately

Pradyumna: Oh, that's how they do it. When there's a hair hole? They put it there.

Prabhupāda: Immediately. And the warning: "I have come." (makes sound like flying mosquito) "Hnn-nn-nn." Where is that brain? The mosquito has so nice brain that he gives you warning that, "I have come to bite you. If you like, you can save yourself." And he goes and immediately bites, and immediately the business is finished. A mosquito has such a nice brain. Who has made this brain?

Pradyumna: I was just remembering that verse, sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam (SB 5.5.1). They will fight to the . . . they will say: "Yes, you are washing the brain." Sattvaṁ śuddhyet.

Prabhupāda: Washing is required because you have no brain. Instead of brain, you have got some stool. So therefore it requires washing. Washing is required because you have no brain.

Pradyumna: It is covered by ignorance.

Prabhupāda: It is covered by the stool, so it requires washing.

Pradyumna: Malam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (end)