760810 - Conversation A - Tehran

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

760810R1-TEHRAN - August 10, 1976 - 76:51 Minutes

Nava-yauvana: Many people, when they see the devotees, they are confused, and they think that the devotees are engaged in some kind of ritualistic activity, that the chanting and practices of devotees are ritualistic, and they compare it to their own rituals and they don't see any distinction. So they see it as sectarian.

Prabhupāda: What they want?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some of them are not sincere, so they simply want to find fault. But those who are sincere can be encouraged to . . .

Nava-yauvana: They are all wanting material things. Like in Bhagavad-gītā, there is the verse, traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ (BG 2.45). Kṛṣṇa is asking Arjuna to rise above the scriptures, the flowery words of the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Well, they are not concerned with the Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot quote from Bhagavad-gītā to instruct these rascals. You have to talk with them with common sense. Their charge is . . . what is their charge? That you are engaged in ritualistic ceremonies?

Nava-yauvana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what they want us to do? If you don't want me to do this, then you must say what you want me to do. Is it not right? Suppose I am chanting. If you don't want me to chant, then what do you want me to do, the next question will be.

Jñānagamya: They want us to engage in sense gratification like they are engaged. That is what they want.

Prabhupāda: Want . . . we want that, if you want me to do like you, then I want you to do like me. If you want me to accept your proposal, why you'll not accept my proposal?

Jñānagamya: Because if I think that sense gratification is better, then I want . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You think sense gratification is better, I think sense gratification is bad.

Jñānagamya: How can we tell the difference? How can we know which is better?

Prabhupāda: No, there is difference. Why you want me to do like you? Then I shall want you to do like me.

Jñānagamya: I say it because I want you to enjoy sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: No, I am not going to accept you. Because you are not accepting my principles, so why shall I accept your principles?

Jñānagamya: But your principle is austere, it's not nice.

Prabhupāda: So that you say.

Jñānagamya: That's what they say.

Prabhupāda: They say, but we say you are bad, that you are enjoying simply sense gratification.

Jñānagamya: They say what is wrong?

Prabhupāda: No, what is wrong to us? It is your judgment that we are wrong. So my judgment you are wrong. Who will decide who is right? Eh? Ātreya Ṛṣi?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: If you judge me I am wrong, I am judging you are wrong. So if you don't want me to do like this, I also don't want you. Then where is the decision?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Actually, these people mentally understand that sense gratification is wrong, but they are so polluted that they are on the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, for argument's sake.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . mental platform.

Prabhupāda: If you want me to do like you, I also want you to do like me. You cannot find fault with me by saying that I am not acting like you, sense gratification. If you are acting in your way, I am acting in my way.

Jñānagamya: It's relative on that platform.

Prabhupāda: But if you want philosophy, the aim of life, the destination of life, then we can talk, what is the destination of life, what is required. If you criticize me, then I can criticize you also.

Jñānagamya: Then we must take it to the absolute platform in order to actually have a sincere argument, to make a sincere decision.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no end of such things. Therefore unless one accepts a person guru, there is no need of talking. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Unless one accepts somebody as guru, the instruction will not be fruitful. Just like Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru. So long he was talking as friend, it was not effective. Arjuna therefore decided . . . find out that verse, kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ.

Harikeśa:

kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ

pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ

yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me

śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam

(BG 2.7)

"Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me."

Prabhupāda: This is the position. Unless one feels like that and asks somebody, a superior, accepts him as guru, there is no use talking. It will not be useful.

Jñānagamya: That's what you say in the purport.

Prabhupāda: This is the position. If the injunction is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), if anyone is interested to know about the transcendental subject matter, he must approach a guru. And unless one approaches a guru, he cannot understand. And if by force I become guru, he may not be interested. This is the position. But still, for a preacher, he has to do something against all odds. That is preaching. You cannot expect favorable position. Your question was that we go and they say like this, but you cannot expect that wherever you are going you'll find favorable situation to talk. That you must understand. But you'll have to preach; you have to create favorable situation. That is your duty. You cannot expect, if they are not prepared to take good instruction. Where is that fan?

Hari-śauri: He's bringing it.

Prabhupāda: You cannot expect favorable situation. It is not possible. When I came in America, I never expected any favorable situation. I wrote that poetry in disappointment that, "Who will accept this?" That is the position. By Kṛṣṇa's grace, gradually it will become a favorable situation, but don't expect any favorable situation. You have to handle unfavorable situation and make favorable situation to preach. That is preaching. Any business. (to devotee fanning) Just on the head. Just see, there is flies. So Nityānanda Prabhu, He went to preach to Jagāi-Mādhāi. There was no favorable situation. They were drunkards. They caused injury on the body of Nityānanda Prabhu. So this is preaching with only unfavorable situation. You cannot expect favorable situation. And still you have to preach. That is preaching. They will speak like madman, so many things. They are mad, after all. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). They have no sense. All materialistic persons are madmen. Still, by the order of superior, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we have to do this preaching work. Actually, the American boys are fighting against so many unfavorable situations. They are sometimes beaten in the airport, you know that? Still they are preaching. That is preaching. That is preaching. "The unfavorable situation, so let me give it up," that is not preaching. Yes, we must know that there is unfavorable situation, still I have to do. That depends on your brain, how to tackle. You cannot expect favorable situation.

Jñānagamya: Is it good to publicize these situations, Prabhupāda, that we are encountering so much difficulty? Is it good to publicize that, in a film, say?

Prabhupāda: Film?

Jñānagamya: In a film can we talk about these things that we . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't talk of film. You are very much in favor of film. You'd better stop that idea.

Jñānagamya: It is very potent, though, for preaching. No?

Prabhupāda: Some of them may be preaching. In documentary. What favorable film will do? We can show our activities; that film may be for our advertisement. Otherwise, in which way by showing film you'll make . . . (indistinct) . . .? There are so many films. They see, they see.

Jñānagamya: Devotees are interested.

Prabhupāda: Devotees are devotees. If you want to preach to the public, what impression they'll have? Some of our documentary film, just like we are feeding the poor, or we are working, making such things, that may be favorable. Say for we're doing something in America, the Indians may appreciate, or we are doing something in India. That's all right. There is little effect, of course, but not very much.

Jñānagamya: But if we make a film to go in the movie houses all over the world, the big movie houses, not just for little schools or little groups, not just for the temple.

Prabhupāda: What kind of film?

Jñānagamya: A film that would show activities of devotees. And have some story . . .

Prabhupāda: But you said they do not like it.

Jñānagamya: No, I never said they do not like it.

Prabhupāda: You said that sense gratification. How they'll appreciate?

Jñānagamya: They will appreciate. It is something new, it is very different, it is very beautiful and attractive.

Prabhupāda: Of course, I cannot understand. But you . . . (indistinct) . . . what is the favorable condition of film?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jñānagamya Prabhu is interested in making a very big film.

Prabhupāda: What is the subject matter?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: The subject matter is devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness: how they learn, how they study, how they go on saṅkīrtana.

Prabhupāda: They are seeing already.

Jñānagamya: They are seeing in real life, but so many people, they do not know of devotees, and films would go to every little town and village. And there would be chanting in the film, and there would be interest in what the devotees are doing.

Prabhupāda: But their opinion is not in favor, as you said.

Jñānagamya: (laughs) But the film can change the opinion. Many times . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . . how they can change?

Jñānagamya: Great books have done this. Uncle Tom's Cabin started a whole war against slavery in the United States. Books and films are very potent. They can make public opinion.

Prabhupāda: Books are different thing. We are publishing.

Jñānagamya: In America the Negro situation was very bad, and they made many films showing heroic Negroes, and now the situation is much better. The people are not so much agitated by seeing Negroes. They think, "Oh, now a Negro has some good qualities." Because of these films they have come to appreciate. So like that, if a devotee is a hero they will also appreciate.

Prabhupāda: You judge. I don't appreciate. I don't think the Negro question is solved.

Jñānagamya: No, it's not, but it is making steps to that end.

Prabhupāda: The whites, they do not like the Negroes still. Wherever there are Negroes, in that quarter the whites do not go in. Is it not? They do not go. Although they have been given equal right, but at heart the whites, they do not like it. Is there any improvement? I don't think. So officially, "Yes, yes, you are good, I am good."

Nava-yauvana: Because people are still on the bodily conception of life, so they are threatened.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the real disease. So long one is situated in the bodily concept of life, he is animal. First of all, you have to educate them. That is the difficulty.

Jñānagamya: But we are not Negroes. We are actually devotees, and we are very attractive, and we have all good qualities. And people do not have to be afraid to come into our section of town; we will not kill them. That is why they are afraid of the Negroes. So we actually have good things to offer.

Prabhupāda: That is by your behavior, not by showing the film.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: One of the points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that you're making, if I understand correctly, is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is like gold, like diamond. If someone is sincere, they will come. When they are selling cigarettes or Negroes or cars, they make films. But with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have the books, which are paramparā. And we have ourselves as example. If we can be paramparā and we can be good example . . .

Prabhupāda: That is my opinion, that instead of spending so much money for films, if you spend some money for propagation of book distribution . . . any advertisement is good, it never goes in vain, but the film advertisement is very expensive. Very, very expensive.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya. It is very true. Very expensive and very much endeavor.

Prabhupāda: Advertisement never goes in vain, that's a fact. But if it is too much expensive, it touches our financial position.

Hari-śauri: And then there's no certainty that it will be a success anyway.

Jñānagamya: There is a method. There is a method . . .

Prabhupāda: Suppose there is little success, but in comparison to the money expended, that success is little. Just like I, in the beginning, I advertised my books in the Times of New York Times. They charged me sixty-three dollars, a small space. So there was inquiry, not order. Three inquiries, not even order. I have got this experience. For me, at that time, sixty-three dollars were too much. So I did not get any response. That is my practical experience. I got three inquiries, not even order. But the Times, New York Times, they have got millions of customers and millions of readers, but I got three inquiries only.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: To find those few potential devotees that are in . . . let us assume, in New York, big city, there were a few potential devotees, and materially speaking, it may be very difficult to find them. But when the devotee is sincere, Kṛṣṇa will give opportunity that those people will be found, even if they are one in that big city. Kṛṣṇa will arrange that they will find a pure devotee if they are sincere. So no material advertising will accomplish the task.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that it is only for the fortunate persons. But we must present. Only the fortunate will come forward. We cannot expect that everyone will come. That is not possible.

Jñānagamya: But you said to make everyone fortunate.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is by your preaching. That we have to do. We are doing that. That I have given the example, Nityānanda Prabhu. He faced rebellion, and by His power converted the Jagāi-Mādhāi, by chanting. They injured, Jagāi-Mādhāi injured, and Nityānanda Prabhu said: "Never mind you have injured Me, please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not advertisement, that is personal behavior.

Jñānagamya: In Dallas where I was there's a town next door, there are many rich Baptists, Fort Worth. They have big studio for producing many different films, television shows about Christian . . .

Prabhupāda: These Christian people, they have got money, and still the churches are being closed. What is the effect?

Jñānagamya: They have no potency to their message. It's not the medium, it's their message.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, by their advertisement, the effect is the churches are being closed. Eh? Is it not?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is correct.

Jñānagamya: But there is also a movement in America, in Christianity, but they do not want to go to church. They want to be Christians, but not go to church.

Prabhupāda: That means it has no effect.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: Now talk about something substantial. Yesterday we were talking about the proprietorship of God. So if people are interested to talk like gentlemen, how they can refute the proprietorship of God of everything? Talk on this point.

Jñānagamya: They say God has given us everything for our pleasure, that God is not worried about whether He owns it or not, He simply wants to give to us.

Prabhupāda: That is your idea. But if I am proprietor of something, I must keep my right. It is not that . . . suppose I am proprietor of this house, and there is a nice garden. I allow my friends and relatives or family to use it. But when they misuse it, shall I remain silent? If I am proprietor, when things are being misused, shall I remain silent? When you misuse it and if I chastise you, how you can say that, "You have given to us. Whatever we like we can do. Why you are protesting?" Can they say like that?

Jñānagamya: No.

Prabhupāda: You say that God has given us, so therefore we can do. There is no need of God. That is your argument, is it not? What that argument?

Nava-yauvana: God has given all these things.

Prabhupāda: God has given us all these things, but does it mean that if you misuse it and God will see only silently? Does it mean that?

Nava-yauvana: No.

Prabhupāda: Then how you can say that you can do it as you like? God has given us?

Jñānagamya: They don't understand how God chastises when they misuse. They don't understand karma.

Prabhupāda: That means shameless. They are being chastised at every step, and they don't think it is chastisement. They are shameless fools.

Nava-yauvana: And also they blame God. They say God is injust. Then they say God is injust.

Prabhupāda: And when they are chastised, then God is injust. This is their position. You cannot deny the proprietorship of God. That is not possible. If you misuse it, then you'll be chastised. You'll be chastised. Even in that park, the park is owned by the government. You cannot pluck any flower without the permission. You can use it. You can go there and sit there, enjoy it, but if it is prohibited that nobody can pluck flower, if you do it, then it is criminal. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to God, so you can utilize it, God's favor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā, according to His instruction. Suppose there are many persons coming in the park. You cannot prohibit anyone to come into the park. As you have entered, "Yes." But you have made laws like that. What is this immigration? Artificial prohibition. Everything is God's property. Anyone can go anywhere. Why you have made this immigration department, "Don't come here"?

Jñānagamya: They say it is to protect the people who are here.

Prabhupāda: Then why you came here? The Americans, why they went to America and killed the Indians? And now they have become proprietor, "Don't come here."

Jñānagamya: They allow some, and then they differentiate, they try to see who is going to be a . . .

Prabhupāda: That means you are violating the laws of God. Every place is God's place, so you're all God's sons. You can go anywhere. Unless I do something, harm you, you cannot check me. In the airport, everyone is checked. That means everyone is dishonest. Nowadays everyone is checked. So in the airport, the passengers are . . . at least it is to be supposed they are paying so much, the airport authorities accept you as you are dishonest, checking, be checked. This is the effect of your education: everyone is dishonest. (lamb bleating in background) Why the lamb is crying? Eh? The lamb?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they have lamb.

Prabhupāda: So they do not give the lamb to eat something?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They . . . I don't know. Maybe they took the mother away or something.

Prabhupāda: No, I hear this sound always somewhere. No, they keep the lambs for killing, eh? But before killing, do they not supply any food?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're very cruel.

Prabhupāda: They starve?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They don't have any human qualification.

Prabhupāda: Human qualification there is not, otherwise how they are killing? Killing means they have no human qualification. Animal qualification. "I want you to eat," huh? You know that Aesop's Fable story?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Which story?

Prabhupāda: There was a lake. So one small lamb was drinking water on the other side, and this side another tiger. So the tiger challenged that, "Why you are muddying the water." So he said, "Sir, I am here, long away. I am not muddying." So anyway, he picked up some quarrel and killed him. So the idea was to kill him, but he picked up some . . . find out some fault. So anyone finding out. This man who wants to kill somebody else, he's not man, he's animal. "Give the dog a bad name and hang it." That English proverb? You try to discuss on this point, how people can refuse the proprietorship of God. That is a very good point for preaching. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to God. That's a fact.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: (to Hari-śauri) Sleeping? Meditating? Either sleeping or meditating, what is the real fact? Meditating or sleeping?

Hari-śauri: I'm not feeling sleepy, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Meditating.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Hari-śauri Prabhu works very hard, Śrīla Prabhupāda. He's a very first class servant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (japa)

Dayānanda: Prabhupāda, they say that the problem is that, the problem of the world is that humanity should be one, everyone should think of things as belonging to humanity, and that religion and different governments have made humanity sectarian and divided up, and people think in terms of . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. We are not such kind of religionist. We say that everything belongs to God and everyone is son of God. We don't say like that.

Dayānanda: But they say: "We don't believe in God, we believe in humanity."

Prabhupāda: What is the difference?

Dayānanda: The difference is that humanity is tangible, it's something we can understand, but God we cannot understand.

Prabhupāda: So we are also tangible, but we are more advanced. How you can . . . wherefrom the humanity came, the next question will be. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Wherefrom the human being came? Hmm? (about fanning) Do little.

Hari-śauri: Just a little?

Prabhupāda: Yes, not little; so that the flies may not come.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Stronger, stronger.

Dayānanda: But they say we don't care about where humanity came, it's just that we are here and we have to deal practically with this worldly situation.

Prabhupāda: What you are doing practically? You are fighting only. Every ten years after you are fighting. What you have done?

Dayānanda: The fighting, they say, comes because humanity is divided into sectarian groups.

Prabhupāda: That is your . . . you have done it. You are also one of the members of the . . . how you can check it? It is your fault.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They want brotherhood amongst men. There is no way . . .

Prabhupāda: But without father. Brotherhood without father.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: That's right. Impractical.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? You don't accept father, where is the question of brotherhood? If there is father, and we are sons, we are brothers. If there is no father, then where is the question of brotherhood?

Hari-śauri: Even the Communists are fighting amongst themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you accept the father, where is the question of brother? Artificial brotherhood.

Nava-yauvana: Just look at the United Nations, how they are brothers.

Prabhupāda: You think they're united?

Nava-yauvana: No, they . . .

Prabhupāda: They are all dogs barking, that's all. I said in the public. Some dogs are brought together, and they are barking. That's all. Where is the unity? That is the fact. If you bring some dogs of this quarter and ask them, "Please live peacefully," will they do that? Why they cannot do it? You bring some dogs, neighborhood, and ask them, "Don't bark. Live together peacefully." Will they be able to do that? What do you think?

Dayānanda: No, it is their nature.

Prabhupāda: So if you keep them dog there cannot be any peace. You make them human being actually, then there will be peace. So they are keeping them as dogs. So they will go on barking. That's all. All these members of the United Nations, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Chinese." So how there will be unity? There cannot be. That is we are proposing, that don't think in the bodily concept of life. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati (BG 18.54): that we are teaching. But they are thinking they have gone to the United Nation, but they are keeping themselves as dogs. There cannot be any peace. They must go on barking against one another. That's all.

Nava-yauvana: They are thinking that they have to protect their so-called interest.

Prabhupāda: So the dog is also thinking. From three miles he begins to bark, "Why you are coming here? Don't come. I am protecting my interest." That mentality is there in the dog; so how you are greater than the dog?

Nava-yauvana: But the devotee, he is thinking that the proprietor is protecting his interest.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that kind of interest is felt by the dog. It is not very astonishing thing. In that mentality you cannot bring in unity. That is not possible.

Dayānanda: But they accept that there is some good quality in humanity. They say that that is inherent in humanity, that we need to worship . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that good quality is God consciousness. So unless humanity comes to the position of God consciousness, unless he thinks that everything belongs to God, there is no question of humanity. That is "doganity," doggish mentality. Humanity means that he understands that "Everything belongs to God. I am servant of God." That is humanity. Otherwise, there is no question of humanity. If you think like dog, where is humanity?

Dayānanda: They think that everything belongs to humanity as a group.

Prabhupāda: But that is not practical. Everything belonging to the humanity, then why you are making divisions of nations?

Dayānanda: That's what they say, that that is the problem, the divisions of nations.

Prabhupāda: And the problem will continue, because you are taking account a section of living entity. You, because you have no idea of dog and other animals, what they are, they are also sons of God. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ. Unless you come to this understanding, there is no question of humanity. This is the humanity understanding. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ.

Harikeśa:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ

tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

(BG 14.4)

"It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father."

Prabhupāda: That's all. You are trying to unify the so-called human beings, but you are keeping the poor animals for cutting their throat. This is your humanity. Because these poor animals cannot protest, so you are strong. And this is your humanity—you cut their throat and eat. But that is not humanity. Humanity is here mentioned: God is the seed-giving father all living entities. That is the fact. That is humanity. They do not know what is meaning by humanity. Here is the explanation, humanity. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Unless you come to that stage, there is no question of humanity. Artificially, you manufacture something and you think humanity. According to your convenience, "Let us combine together and exploit other living entities for our benefit." That is not humanity. They do not know what is humanity. Here is the explanation. How humanity can be established unless there is the understanding of the supreme father, how there is question of . . . how this question of brotherhood can come in? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So you try to understand this, then humanity. You cannot manufacture some ideas of humanity, imperfect, because you are imperfect. Here is perfect idea.

Dayānanda: So how can we be convinced that this is perfect or that it's practical? Because both ideas seem to us to be theoretical. This idea of humanity as . . .

Prabhupāda: Theoretical? How it is theoretical? It is practical. You have no intelligence. Your . . . you say this is also theoretical. Did you not say? I say it is practical. It is practical. From that verse, if you have got brain, you study, you'll see that it is practical if you are intelligent. But if you are dull, then you'll not understand. How it is practical? Here Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the seed-giving father." So do you think it is theoretical? Do you think?

Dayānanda: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, for argument's sake.

Dayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Unless there is a seed-giving father, how it is possible of a child simply by the mother? Is there any practical example? If one girl has given birth to a child, do you think the child is born without father? Eh? Is it possible?

Dayānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Therefore when Kṛṣṇa says: "I am the seed-giving father," what is the wrong there? No living entity can take birth without being seed-given by the father. Everywhere you see that without seed-giving father how a child can take birth?

Dayānanda: But how can we accept that situation? Perhaps the creation is a special circumstance?

Prabhupāda: No, no. No special. "Perhaps," this is impractical. Why do you say "perhaps"? That is nonsense. As soon as you say "perhaps," then you are rascal.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: You'll have to show a practical example.

Prabhupāda: Yes, when you talking of practical things and you bring argument, "perhaps," then you are rascal, immediately. Give practical example, no "perhaps," "maybe." No. That argument will not do. These rascals are giving that argument, "perhaps," "maybe." That is not argument. Be practical when you talk of practical things. Practically you do not see that without father there is any child born. No. Either in the animals or in the human beings or in the birds—everywhere, seed-giving father is there.

Hari-śauri: Freud's idea . . . Freud admitted that, that we are all like children, but his philosophy was that the children have to grow up and go out and look after themselves. They can't remain dependent on the father forever, so they have to grow up and face the world.

Prabhupāda: That is another rascal. Because everyone, every living entity is dependent on the father's arrangement. God is the supreme father. He was a Christian or not, Freud?

Hari-śauri: I don't know what he was.

Prabhupāda: What he was?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was mainly Freudian. He believed in himself.

Hari-śauri: He had his own philosophy.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: He was Christian, yes . . .

Prabhupāda: Christian. So why the Christian go and . . . go to the father, "Give us our daily bread"? That means that you are dependent on father. How you can say independent?

Hari-śauri: But that's the point, that we have to grow up and become dependent on our own work.

Prabhupāda: No. The Vedic injunction is eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God means He's supplying the necessities of all His sons. That is God. And that is practical. You are dependent. The animals, they are dependent on grass. So wherefrom the grass is coming? Why that land is deserted and this land is green place? Can you change it? Why you don't change the desert to be green? So if you think that, "I'm living on animal. I don't care for grass," but the animal depending on grass, and the grass is depending on God's mercy. So how you can say you are not dependent on God? You are dependent. But because you are a rascal fraud, you want to cheat and become a Freud, that's all. You are a great fraud, therefore you're talking like that. You are dependent on God in every step. You cannot be independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra. Find out this verse.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

(BG 3.27)

That is fraud. He's thinking independently. He's not independent.

Harikeśa:

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

(BG 3.27)

"The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities which are in actuality carried out by nature."

Prabhupāda: So how we are independent? Did Mr. Freud not die? When prakṛti, nature, kicked on his face, he immediately died. So how he's independent? These rascals have created all troubles. The so-called rascal philosophers, scientists, politicians, they have created all troubles. He's completely dependent on nature, on the laws of nature, and still he says: "I am independent. I have grown up." What you have grown up? You have grown up as a great fool, that's all. You have not grown up to be intelligent. You have grown up a great rascal, that's all. So refute them in this way, then you'll be preacher. So what is your argument about humanity?

Dayānanda: Well, if God is, as you say . . .

Prabhupāda: God is the father.

Dayānanda: If God is meant to be propitiated, then why is it that we have so many things for our enjoyment? You say that everything is for God's enjoyment.

Prabhupāda: Yes, God has given you enjoyment, but you cannot enjoy yourself, alone. There are other sons, they will also enjoy. If you interfere with other sons, then you'll be punished. God's son is the lamb, and you let him enjoy, you also enjoy. But if you interfere with his right, then you'll be punished. That is God's law. Sarva-yoniṣu, God is not only your father, he's father of the lamb also. So if by your brute force you want to kill the poor lamb, then you'll be punished. This is natural. You have got your food; you produce your foodgrain and you eat. Why should you eat another animal? God says that annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), you must eat to become strong. But that does not mean you'll eat another brother. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (ISO 1): whatever He has designated, you eat like that. You are human being, you can produce food. You grow foodstuffs, rice, wheat, fruit, flowers, vegetables. That is allowed. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. You produce anna; why should you kill an animal? And offer it to Kṛṣṇa, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam (BG 9.26). He never says that, "You give Me an animal." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam. So you produce patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam, and offer to Kṛṣṇa, and then take.

Dayānanda: In our experience we have no understanding how this can be practical, because we think that meat is good for our strength. How can we be strong?

Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are not human being; you are animal. If you cannot produce your food . . . uncivilized animals, they cannot produce their food. But you are given the chance of becoming human being. If you cannot produce your food, if you do not know how to cook food, how to offer it, then you are not human being; you are animal. When the uncivilized man in the jungle, they did not know how to produce food, they used to kill animals. So if you want to remain in the same uncivilized status of life, then where you are human being? You have got greater intelligence. You produce your food. Why should you kill animal like the uncivilized jungle men? Your action is just like jungle man, and you are claiming to be civilized man.

Nava-yauvana: Because they are thinking that they are the proprietor.

Prabhupāda: That is their folly. They are not proprietor. They are not proprietor. That is already discussed. Proprietor is the Supreme Lord; you are not proprietor. That is another point. Falsely you are claiming proprietor. How you are proprietor? Everyone can claim proprietor, and that is going on. Everyone is claiming proprietor and they are fighting. That is going on. And if you accept God is proprietor and we are dependent on Him, then there is no fight. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. This īśa, Īśopanisad verse is perfectly describing, tena tyaktena: you are not proprietor. You accept things what the proprietor has given you, allotted for you. You are not proprietor. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Do not encroach upon others. Then how you become proprietor? We are falsely claiming proprietorship; we are encroaching upon others' independence. This is our business. How there can be peace? It is not possible. This property is walled, that property is walled. You cannot encroach on the other side of the wall. Then it is criminal, trespassing. The government's duty is to see that nobody's encroaching on others. Similarly, God's duty is that, that everyone is God's son, you don't encroach upon other son's right, then you'll be punished. You have got right to live and the lamb has got right to live. Why should you encroach upon his living right? Because you are strong? That is not humanity. The animal is there for benefit. Let him live, and you take the fur. You can use it for your coat. But why should you kill it? The cow is giving milk like mother, why should you kill it? This is humanity, to kill the mother? So in this way we are encroaching the rights of others, and we are becoming subject to be punished by God. This is going on. You may say there is no God, but God is there; you'll be punished. The outlaws, they will say: "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state. That is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool; he's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side, he is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal, what to speak of humanity.

Dayānanda: Some people say . . . so we will even say, "I don't care for your rational arguments." Some people say, "I don't care for your . . ."

Prabhupāda: Then you are animal, because animal has no rationality. Then you are animal. Better not to talk with you. What is the use of talking with you? You are animal. You have no rationality. Man is rational animal, this is the definition. You have no rationality, therefore you are animal. What is the use of talking with you? Waste time. If you have no rationality, then you are animal. That is the difficulty. People are kept in the status of animal, and they are expected human behavior. How it is possible? It is not possible. So therefore our endeavor is to bring them to the standard of humanity, real humanity. Then there will be peace, prosperity, everything all right. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You don't care for rationality, that means you are animal. Man is rational animal. That is the definition. If you have no rationality . . . dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ . . . this is Vedic injunction. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samāna (Hitopadeśa). Anyone who has no religious principle, he's animal. Therefore you'll find in human society, it doesn't matter whether it is Iran or India or Europe, there is some religion. Because without religion they are animals. Animal has no religion. The animal is . . . dog is dog. It is not a Christian dog or a Hindu dog. Hindu, Christian comes when they are human being. So a civilized society must have the rationality, religion. Religion is rationality, to accept God. What is religion? Religion means to accept God.

Dayānanda: They say that, "You may have so many wonderful philosophies, but our desire is just to enjoy life."

Prabhupāda: That means animal. That means animal. Animal has no philosophy.

Nava-yauvana: Also they say that religions are the causes of war. In Lebanon now the Christians are killing the Muslims and the Muslims are killing the Christians, in the name of . . .

Prabhupāda: And the Communists are killing capitalists and capitalists are killing Communists. What is that? Is that religion? Then? So how you can stop war? Because you are animal, you fight, you can give some name, either on religious ground or this philosophical ground. But because you are animal you will fight. You can give a different name. That is different thing. But because you are dogs, you'll fight. The real religion is why they will fight? Religion means to accept God. So if you are Muslim, I am Hindu, if I accept God, if you accept God, then where is fight? If we accept that God is the proprietor, God is the father, then where is the question of fight? Because we are not religious, therefore fight. Otherwise, if you accept God is the supreme father, if I accept God is the supreme, why fight?

(pause)

Prabhupāda: So we have to go down?

Nava-yauvana: Everything you say, Prabhupāda, makes sense. Everything you say makes sense.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our preaching should be sensible, then people will accept. After all, they are human being. There is sense, but by force they are covering the sense. So we have to awaken them by handling carefully, that's all. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo gauracānda bole. Who are . . . uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varan nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14). They are sleeping. We have awaken them, that's it. That is preaching. Even the animal-killing, where it is absolutely necessary . . . so according to any religious principle, there is God. Just like who was telling me? You were telling me about the lamb killing? The injunction is that the mouth should be toward Mecca. Is it like that?

Nava-yauvana: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So because there is no other way . . . suppose in the desert, what they'll do? They must eat something. But still there is sense of God, there is some regulative principle.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: There is also principle of sacrifice with very strict regulations.

Prabhupāda: So in this way God consciousness must be there. That is civilization.

Hari-śauri: You want to go down, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances) (end)