770121 - Conversation C - Bhuvanesvara

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770121R3-BHUVANESVARA - January 21, 1977 - 46:32 Minutes

Rāmeśvara: . . . how nicely they are printed and that they are from America. Otherwise these books . . .

Gargamuni: In libraries they have no budget for religious books. They only want technical books.

Rāmeśvara: They're not interested in religion.

Gargamuni: But because our books are printed so nicely and coming from America, and they are seeing the foreign sādhus, oh, they become so, "Oh, yes. We must take." But actually they have no budget for any religious books.

Prabhupāda: That is good. The so-called religious books they're presenting—all bogus humbug. (laughter) Humbug imagination, that's all. There is no fact. Just like Ramakrishna Mission. What religion they have got? Anyone? This religion, that religion, Jainism, Sikhism, this "ism," no nothing. Simply bogus propaganda.

Gargamuni: All the libraries, they say: "We have too many religious books, too much religion."

Rāmeśvara: And the government is so much afraid of offending one religion, so they have become secular. But there only is one religion. There is only one religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One religion, this is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), to become surrendered to God. That is religion. And they're useless. That is our religion. We are teaching surrender to God, but they have no idea that there is God. They have forgotten that, "There is God, and He can talk with me. I can talk with Him." They cannot believe all these things. "Even if God is there, He cannot talk. He has no mouth, He has no leg." Nirākāra, impersonal. This is their position.

Rāmeśvara: In America there are surveys, public opinion surveys.

Prabhupāda: Just see. God has to be created by public. Just see how degraded.

Rāmeśvara: But anyway, these surveys show that religious sentiment in America is increasing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is proof. You are the proof. That is no doubt. They are intelligent. Intelligent, and there is no poverty. In other countries, on account of poverty, they are thinking, "First of all we must be materially prosperous. Then we shall think all this nonsense, God." This is their . . . this propaganda is going on, "What you'll . . . can do by God? First of all we must have sufficient to eat, sufficient to drink." And this is their philosophy. How they can . . .? There is Sanskrit verse that daridra-doṣo guṇa—rāśi-nāśī: "If somebody is poverty-stricken, all other qualities become useless." And nowadays the education is for money. One has passed D.H.C. Ph.D. but if he does not get an employment, then what is the value? He's begging from here: "Sir, will you give me some service?" That's all.

Rāmeśvara: Actually you wrote that, that the educational system simply turns man into a dog going from door to door, begging for some . . .

Prabhupāda: This is . . . why the Indian professors are going outside?

Gargamuni: Brain-drain, they have called.

Prabhupāda: Because they cannot get here suitable job.

Rāmeśvara: No salaries.

Gargamuni: I read in the paper that India lost $850,000,000 by the brain-drain because all of its intelligentsia is leaving.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: They're going to Europe and America.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Especially America.

Prabhupāda: No, Canada also.

Rāmeśvara: Many Indians in Canada.

Prabhupāda: Canada, I have seen in the university. Almost majority of the professors, they are Indian. Yes. All over the world they like Indians. They take small salary. For them it is high salary, but for Europe, America, it is cheaper. And they're intelligent, so they give service. I was given this permanent residence . . .

Gargamuni: Yes, in Canada.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Seeing my books.

Gargamuni: Yes, Montreal.

Prabhupāda: That Consulate General in Montreal, he, when he read my The Teachings of Lord Caitanya, he immediately became attracted.

Gargamuni: You spent only twenty-five dollars, and we spent so much on lawyers.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Twenty-five or thirty-five dollars.

Gargamuni: We were hiring lawyers in New York.

Prabhupāda: The lawyer is taking monthly at least three hundred dollars, and postponing. That's all.

Rāmeśvara: Naturally. So he can continue getting money.

Prabhupāda: He would phone Rayarāma, "Will you kindly send me $150 today." And he has to send. And he was simply postponing date. That's all.

Gargamuni: He would call on the phone.

Rāmeśvara: I heard that you once said: "Lawyer means liar."

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs)

Rāmeśvara: I'm going to go get that survey to show Prabhupāda. It's printed . . .

Prabhupāda: The Bankim Babu, Bankim Chatterji, a famous novelist, he wrote a book, one comic book. Trial is going on, so the witness charged the . . . first of all the judge charged that, "I see you are witness in every case." (laughs) He was a professional. So, "You are speaking he is sixty years old for the last five years. You do not increase your age?" (laughing) "No, sir. A gentleman has one word. He does not change his word."

Gargamuni: Oh, I see. He had one word, sixty years.

Prabhupāda: "And do not think me that I am either a lawyer or a prostitute or a newspaper editor."

Gargamuni: Oh. Because they're all liars. Yes.

Prabhupāda: "My word is one. I do not change my word."

Gargamuni: So a newspaper editor, a lawyer . . .

Prabhupāda: And a prostitute. (laughs)

Gargamuni: And a prostitute. They're all . . .

Prabhupāda: (laughing) He classified them in one category.

Gargamuni: Especially these newspapers. When you give an interview, they always print something else.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: They never print exactly what one says.

Prabhupāda: They're not honest.

Gargamuni: No.

Rāmeśvara: This was printed in the Los Angeles Times on January 21. No, January 2nd.

Prabhupāda: I think this opinion printed you send to all newspapers, editors.

Rāmeśvara: That book that he printed?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: That book can be expanded with more references.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. When I reprint it I'll do that.

Gargamuni: Those European reviews.

Prabhupāda: With a covering letter, "Sir, there is much agitation about Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. You'll kindly read this following pamphlet, and you'll understand the value of the movement." And it is good that you have given the heading "The Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." (long pause while Rāmeśvara goes to find article)

Rāmeśvara: So this is a study published in Los Angeles Times on January 2nd. It says: "The year 1976 could mark the beginning of a new religious revival in America, judging from recent Gallup surveys of public opinion. The surveys found: 1] For the first time in nearly twenty years there was an increase in church attendance"—first time in twenty years—"with 42% of all adults in America attending church or synogogue in any typical week." Once a week 42% of the adult population; almost half. "2] The proportion of Americans who believe that religion is increasing its influence on American life has tripled since 1970." In other words the public thinks that religion is now influencing American life. The number of people who think like that has gone up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is due to this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.

Rāmeśvara: I think so.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Then number three—this is very significant—"A substantial number of Americans have developed an interest in the inner, or spiritual, life." They make a distinction between religion and spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Actually religion means spiritual.

Rāmeśvara: But they say religion means going to church once a week. That's their religion.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's . . .

Rāmeśvara: But spiritual is something different. So they say: "A recent survey indicates that a projected six million people are participating in the Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation. Five million are practicing yoga in one form or another." Mostly for health. "Three million in the charismatic movements." That is . . .

Hari-śauri: Like us.

Rāmeśvara: . . . like the cults. "Three million in mysticism, and two million in Eastern religions." That's a lot of people they have estimated are practicing, or participating, in Eastern religion.

Prabhupāda: Eastern Indian.

Rāmeśvara: Mostly us, and some bogus so-called gurus.

Hari-śauri: Those charismatic movements, that's like . . .

Rāmeśvara: Est.

Hari-śauri: . . . the Jesus Christ movement. The Catholic preachers call that charismatic.

Rāmeśvara: "To estimate the average church attendance in 1976, surveys . . ." Oh, this just tells you how they took the survey. "So analysis of these figures shows that church attendance is up among all major population groups. The Catholics are better attenders than the Protestants. Women go more often than men." Women go more often than men in America. "Southerners and the Midwestern"—from the South and the Midwest—"they attend more frequently than they do in the East, and far more than those living in the West." So this says that people in the West, like California, they're the least religious. People in the East, like New York and Pennsylvania, they're a little more religious, and people in the Midwest and the South, they're the most religious according to the survey. "Those who are under thirty years of age are less likely to go to church than those who are thirty and over." Younger people . . . same trend, giving up.

Prabhupāda: They come to us.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They come to us. "Whites and nonwhites attend with equal frequency." Not that the white people are more religious; black people are less. "People with a college background are more likely to go to church regularly than those who never went to college, but people who never went . . ." In other words, they're saying if you went to high school but you did not go to college, the chances are you will not go to church as much as if you went to college. But if people went to grade school and then they left without going to high school or without going to college—that means they left at, say, fifteen years old—then they have the best chance for going to church. That means the less education you are given in America, the more religious.

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.

Rāmeśvara: But it's very interesting that they are saying that so many millions of people are practicing yoga or interested in meditation or the Eastern religions or mysticism—millions of Americans. And formerly, I remember, in the 1960s, it was a new thing. Actually when you came, that was the beginning. Before you came to America there was a little bit of interest in some concoction which they call Zen Buddhism.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Little bit of concoction. But practically no one had ever heard of yoga or anything. It was just beginning to get popular when you came to America. It coincided with your visit. So it seems that there must be some . . .

Hari-śauri: (aside) Some kind of a bug there, an ant.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Rāmeśvara: So it seems that there must be some . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's plan.

Rāmeśvara: . . . effect. By just your coming to America, the whole place is transformed. Sometimes we think that when you look at these date that Lord Caitanya came to the world, it coincides with a period in the Western world called the Renaissance. During this period of the Renaissance there was the highest development of art and literature and so many other cultural things. So we sometimes wonder, there must be some . . .

Prabhupāda: Does it mean that before that, the Europeans were uncivilized?

Rāmeśvara: They were . . . actually considered themselves to be in the Dark Ages. They call it the Dark Ages. And then, all of a sudden, there was what they call the Renaissance, where man's intelligence became greater, expanded. He became interested in finer things.

Prabhupāda: Not man's, but the Westerners'.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, Europe Westerners'.

Prabhupāda: Intelligent stock was there in India,

Rāmeśvara: Yes. So it's very amazing that the period in Europe called the Renaissance coincides with the appearance of Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Fifteenth century.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. So we're thinking that it must be because He came into this world, then everyone was blessed.

Prabhupāda: Pāpī tāpī jāta chilo, hari-nāme uddharilo. That is the beginning. And He enthused Indians, "Take this knowledge and distribute." Bhārata bhūmite haila manuṣya janma yāra (CC Adi 9.41). That is Kṛṣṇa . . . Caitanya.

Rāmeśvara: That was the period when all the Europeans became very interested in traveling all over the world, and they discovered America, and they were very interested in coming to India for the spices. There was a great interest in India.

Gargamuni: Silk and spices.

Rāmeśvara: Actually they say this man Columbus, he landed in America because he was looking for India, trying to cross the ocean, and he found this land, America, blocking his way.

Hari-śauri: That's how it became . . . those islands became the West Indies, because he was looking for India, and he went west, and he hit some islands, and they called them the West Indies. Then later they went to America.

Prabhupāda: West Indies are South America.

Rāmeśvara: The Caribbean—Cuba, Nassau, Puerto Rico.

Prabhupāda: The southern part.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. South of Florida. So his main motive was how to find India, to get the wealth of India.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: So it seems all over the world there was a greater interest in education, in art and in India at the time when Lord Caitanya appeared.

Hari-śauri: The church was its strongest, as well, in Europe at that time. Religion, very strong.

Prabhupāda: Christ also went, came to India.

Rāmeśvara: That is not believed in the West.

Prabhupāda: That is to keep their prestigious position.

Gargamuni: Many scholars . . . there's a place in Kashmir where they say his samādhi is there.

Rāmeśvara: They know that there is a period of years . . .

Hari-śauri: From 12 to 30.

Rāmeśvara: . . . which no one can account for.

Prabhupāda: No, even from Christian religion it is proved how uncivilized were the Westerners. "Thou shall not kill." Now, how uncivilized they were. Even they take it the human killing it is meant, not animal killing, so what kind of society it is?

Hari-śauri: "Don't kill human beings."

Rāmeśvara: Well, that's accepted, that it's very uncivilized in those times.

Prabhupāda: And the result was that Christ was killed first. Who advised not to kill, they were so civilized that, "Kill him first." So this is the proof. Why he said: "Thou shall not kill"? That means the society was so ravaged that they're killing one another.

Rāmeśvara: It was their sport to see men fight each other until one of them was killed. Their wrestling was based on fighting until someone was killed.

Gargamuni: They would take Christians and put them in the arena, and watch the lions . . .

Rāmeśvara: That was their sport, entertainment. Just like wrestling in India, but in the Middle East in Roman times the wrestling was fought until somebody had to be killed. That was their entertainment. They wanted to see them die. Even today, actually, all the entertainment in America and the Western world is based on violence. They have bull fighting. They want to see the bull tortured and killed. And they have chicken fighting, and they have . . .

Prabhupāda: Dog fighting.

Rāmeśvara: And even the most popular sport in America now is football. It is more popular than baseball, and it's based on men jumping on each other. While one team is carrying the ball, every . . . a very violent sport.

Hari-śauri: And boxing also. So many different sports.

Rāmeśvara: They are fascinated by pain and fighting.

Prabhupāda: Torture. They like to see that somebody is tortured by another.

Hari-śauri: All the movies are becoming increasingly more violent. And on TV.

Rāmeśvara: Yes, actually there is . . . I was just told, there is one movie now which is breaking all the records for attendance. It is called The Omen, and it is about a prophecy in the Bible called the Antichrist. This idea is that the Devil comes from hell to the planet earth, and he impregnates one woman, and then his son is born. So the son is called Antichrist, son of the Devil. And he is very powerful, with mystic power, very evil, and he takes over the whole world. So there's a movie now about this, and it's breaking all the sales records. And in the movie they have all sorts of ghastly things happening. This is what people like to see. They like to be scared. Horror movies are also very popular. People go to the movie, and they come out and they have nightmares for a week. It is so frightening with special effects, and that is . . . they are paying money to be frightened.

Prabhupāda: While sometimes the movies that are demonstrated in the plane, I close my eyes. I do not like to see them, because that impression carries. It is a very disturbing fact to me.

Hari-śauri: Yes. It's very disturbing. Those night flights are horrible. You can't sleep or anything.

Rāmeśvara: Even this movie that we have just been involved with, called Audrey Rose, about reincarnation, in order to make it popular they have made it very, very frightening. In order to get people to come, they have to have that element of terror.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Hari-śauri: Mysticism.

Rāmeśvara: So they concoct different arrangements. Because people are willing to spend money to torture their own minds. No one is happy. They are very disturbed when they leave the movie theater. They are frightened. And at night they cannot sleep peacefully after seeing such movies. And they are paying money to go to these things.

Prabhupāda: And again they will take tranquilizer. (laughing) Just see how thankless task. Create something disturbing and again try to . . . yesterday some men came, the Communistic temple.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes, especially in this state.

Prabhupāda: I gave them good thrashing. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: That is their mercy, that you even bothered to talk to them.

Prabhupāda: But they could not argue. I stopped them arguing. One man, one boy, young boy, he asked me, "Why God has created this world?" And "Why don't you ask your father why he has created you? Then you'll understand." I told him like that. "Go and ask your father why he has created you."

Rāmeśvara: Of course, nowadays that is an accident, not planned. If you ask a father, "Why you have made your son?" he will say, "By mistake. I did not want him. I was simply wanting sex."

Prabhupāda: But God cannot make mistake. Then He becomes imper . . . he cannot be good. And not all fathers. According to Vedic civilization, the father creates the son purposefully with some ceremony, garbhādāna ceremony. It is not secret job. Putrethi kriyate bharyā: "One is married to create good son." That is the purpose. And Bhagavad-gītā says, dharmāviruddha (BG 7.11): "Aviruddha, which is not against religion, that kind of lust I am." So how it can be accident? If there is garbhādāna ceremony, and son is essential, then how it can be accident?

Gargamuni: Even in the big, rich families, when they want son they perform some pūjā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, no. According to Vedic system, everything is so . . . when the woman is pregnant there are so many ceremonies. When we were children, and I was in the middle, I saw my other two, three brothers and sisters born. So there was some ceremony. We were eating with mother in that ceremony. That ceremony was because my mother was pregnant. Sad-bhakṣā. Sad-bhakṣā. There are ten kinds of ceremonies—before the birth and after the birth, daśa-vidha-saṁskāra. So many religious ceremonies my mother was observing, and all the expenditure my father was giving. Every month, two, three ceremonies, very nice ceremonies. We were children; we were eating. So we . . .

Gargamuni: A brahmin priest would come?

Prabhupāda: Eh? brahmin priest come. There would be pūjā. There would be nice feast. Now those things are gone.

Rāmeśvara: They never existed in America.

Prabhupāda: During our wife's time they were not . . . and what about our daughter's time? Now, generation by generation, giving it up.

Rāmeśvara: Now they're simply thinking of ways, the scientists . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: . . . how to kill the baby or how to stop the baby body from developing. Different methods for birth control. Then they'll create heaven on earth.

Gargamuni: No, here they have forced sterilization.

Hari-śauri: Vasectomy.

Gargamuni: You can't have more than three children.

Hari-śauri: Two.

Gargamuni: Oh, two.

Prabhupāda: No, why don't you stop? In spite of so many measures for checking population, the population is increasing. How it is? On the whole . . . some years ago I read in a paper that three men are increasing every second . . . or every minute.

Rāmeśvara: They cannot control their sex desire. And some of these methods are imperfect.

Prabhupāda: No. Sex desire cannot be controlled by ordinary man. That's a fact. But they have invented so many things to stop increase of population, and why population is increasing? That is the point. They are killing, and more . . . they're taking contraceptive tablets and so on, so on—a vigorous arrangement for stopping birth or checking increase of population. Why every second or every minute throughout the whole world three men are increasing? That they cannot stop. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). It is indeed troublesome, but you cannot stop it. Either birth or death or disease or old age, you cannot stop. You want it. Everyone wants. Who wants to become old man like me to run on with a stick, and with so many inconveniences? But I have to become old man. Who can stop it? Similarly, birth, death also, or disease. You may be proud that, "We have invented medicine for cancer and . . ." but you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. What is their answer?

Gargamuni: "We are trying."

Prabhupāda: That every rascal will say: "I am trying." So that is not science.

Hari-śauri: Well, in India they say that before, it was not compulsory, but now it's compulsory in India that you can't have more than two children, and then, after two children, you must have this sterilization.

Prabhupāda: Why Indian? The other countries, they are also trying to stop.

Hari-śauri: Well, in other countries they say there's no need for such population control.

Gargamuni: Yes. In one . . . I think it was in Germany they had something, only one percent increase of population.

Hari-śauri: Some places they're actually trying to increase, in some places.

Gargamuni: Yes. In Australia, I think.

Hari-śauri: In Australia they've only got thirteen million people in the whole country, and it's bigger than America. And in Canada also, they only have a few million. And in Russia they don't have such a big population for the size of the land. But because they've set up these national divisions, then in one place they're killing the population . . .

Prabhupāda: No . . . Vedic process is that unless you create nice children or you can give them protection from death, don't create children. Brahmacārī. Remain brahmacārī. That is sensible, that, "Why shall I beget children like cats and dogs if I cannot take care of them properly?" That is very gentlemanly. What is this? I create and kill? Most uncivilized. Don't create. That is civilized man. "If I cannot take care of them properly, I'll not create children."

Gargamuni: They're not educating the population in brahmācārya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Therefore these beggars are there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is gentlemanly that, "Why shall I take responsibility of family if I cannot maintain them properly?" That is very gentlemanly. That is civilization. "And I accept so-called family for sense gratification; I cannot maintain them, and kill them"—what is this? Is that civilization? They should be ashamed to be called civilized men. Here is civilized way. Go preach this, because the Vedic civilization is real civilization. "You are not civilized. You have killed Jesus Christ, who instructed 'Thou shall not kill.' So you should be ashamed of your present civilization. It is . . . brainwash is required."

Gargamuni: (laughs) Say that, yes. We're brainwashing, washing their brain.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And all these rubbish things we are finishing. "Yes, it is brainwashing, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), cleansing the core of the heart, all mistaken ideas." Speak in the court like that. "And see how we are being appreciated by scholarly section. Here is our book. Read if you have got time, and see the opinion. It is really brainwashing, but for the good. Everything require cleansing—for good. If bad impression, bad ideas, are washed, why do you protest? Let it be done. Give us freedom. It is brainwashing, but for the good, washing for good. Just like you wash your cloth. Do you think it is bad? Dirty cloth, if it is washed nicely with soap and water, who will protest against that, 'Oh, why you are cleansing your dirty cloth?' That is another foolishness. Everyone, every gentleman, every civilized man, washes his clothes with soap and water to become more refreshed. So we are giving this civilization . . . actually it is brainwashing, but for the good. And see our example. The boys and girls whom you are charging 'brainwash,' just see after brainwashing, how gentleman they have become. They have become moralist. They have become God conscious. They are clean outwardly. Their fooding is so innocent and so nutritious. So why do you check it? Bring your plate and our plate. Now judge which is better. You taste. Halavā, purī, samosā, kachorī, vegetable—one plate, and boiled meat with salt and black pepper. So taste now which is better."

Hari-śauri: But for a hog, halavā . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: A hog would rather eat stool.

Prabhupāda: And bring that also, "Before the hog, you give him stool and halavā—he will prefer to take the stool." So let it be extremely exposed. We are fighting. Let them be exposed. What is the wrong there?

Gargamuni: We should, in our attack, we should expose them.

Hari-śauri: They're criticizing us. We should point out their defects.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: That is attack is the best form of defense.

Gargamuni: "You're a drunkard, you're a smoker, and you're doing all these things." We should turn the tide and expose them.

Prabhupāda: There are many opinion that "This movement is . . . Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will save the human society." There are many opinions like that. That's a fact.

Gargamuni: And many parents have said that, "My children have been saved." Hayagrīva's . . .

Prabhupāda: No, these books especially. There are many opinions "It will save the human civilization from going to hell."

Gargamuni: One scholar, Ashutosh Mukherjee, he said this, "These books will save the world." In that review book.

Rāmeśvara: Yeah, right. He said from the . . . nice words.

Hari-śauri: Seems only the Indian scholars have got that vision, though. Only the Indian scholars have appreciated that these books have a chance for saving the whole humanity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is our mission. We want to save.

Rāmeśvara: Here. "The set edition of the Bhāgavata series we hope will serve as a boon to the English-knowing world for its abiding values and ennobling thoughts of spiritual perspective to give the correct lead to mankind in the midst of sickening contemporary problems."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission. Who has written that?

Gargamuni: That's Dr. Krishna Gopal Goswami.

Rāmeśvara: Head of the Department of Sanskrit at Calcutta University.

Prabhupāda: He has got good experience, because university students, they have become so rascal. In the university they don't care for professors, teachers. Don't care.

Gargamuni: This book is capable of so many things.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. Then the professor and the head of the Department of Bengali and the dean of the faculty of Fine Arts and Music at the University of Calcutta says: "The world, tormented by psychic troubles like avarice, hate and other baser qualities of the mind, will never escape from utter annihilation of the soul unless it finds refuge in His Divine Grace. I have particularly read some portions of this English translation of Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, and I think this book is capable of saving mankind from the clutches of māyā. I have no doubt that the ISKCON will lead the world to the path of divine grace."

Gargamuni: He's a very big scholar, too. He's a Ph.D.

Prabhupāda: No, all of them Ph.D.'s. All . . .

Rāmeśvara: And here, Dr. Jagdish Sharma. He's the author of nineteen books, a very well learned man. He says: "The work done by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda toward the revivalism of Hindu culture and civilization is unsurpassable. His Holiness has done a great service to Indian culture by reinterpreting the concept enshrined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This edition of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will go a long way to help the scientists in rediscovering phenomena of the universe which is yet to be discovered. The thoughts of this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam radiate to anyone who sees it. This book helps to brighten the gloomy and dark clouds which are covered by the nuclear fear and the apprehensions of society."

Prabhupāda: So let the judge read this opinion, read this book.

Gargamuni: Yeah, these men are famous men of India. This Jagdish Sharma is the most famous man in Punjab.

Prabhupāda: He is a young man?

Gargamuni: Jagdish Sharma?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: I have not met him. I don't know. But he's very famous.

Prabhupāda: Young man means about forty.

Gargamuni: Yeah. I think he's around forty or forty-five.

Rāmeśvara: But then the best one is by Dr. Mukherjee, former Chief Justice. He writes that, "This book is an intellectual, a cultural and a spiritual landmark in this world. The beautiful printing and photographs evoke the spirit of the work. It is a book which should be in the library of every reader who values the essential glories of human life . . ."

Prabhupāda: This is the judgment of the Chief Justice. He's not ordinary man.

Rāmeśvara: ". . . and the ultimate destiny of this universe." Then there is that other quote. This is also very important, by the Deputy Director of the Lok Sabha Secretariat.

Gargamuni: That Subramaniam.

Rāmeśvara: He's a big man. And this is the national government.

Gargamuni: No, the central. Lok Sabha is like the Parliament.

Prabhupāda: Lok Sabha is Parliament. Lok Sabha means Parliament.

Rāmeśvara: Congress of the National Government.

Gargamuni: Yes. No, no, no. Central government. Yes, what you say is national.

Rāmeśvara: "This is a rare opportunity for people and leaders of every country, every race and every community in the world to know and understand the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should therefore find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, not only in educational and other institutions, but also in every household, and above all, in the hearts and minds of every man and woman."

Prabhupāda: And he is not ordinary man. He is . . .

Rāmeśvara: No. He is the Deputy Director of Lok Sabha Secretariat. (to Gargamuni) You should write more . . . I have to go over this with you to get more descriptions of each place. Central Government.

Gargamuni: I have the full . . . oh, right. I have the full reviews too.

Rāmeśvara: And like if it says Sardar Patel University, where is that?

Gargamuni: In Gujarat.

Rāmeśvara: I just have to add a few things.

Hari-śauri: Will you be going for a walk this morning, Śrīla Prabhupāda? It's quarter to seven. If you want to go now, we could go.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So let us go.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wants to go for a walk.

Gargamuni: Oh. I don't know the area, so I don't know where to go, but Gaura-Govinda probably knows the parks. That place where we get the water? There's a little park there.

Hari-śauri: He said there's a couple of parks up near the lake, too. That's where he wanted to go yesterday morning.

Gargamuni: Yeah, I don't know. He doesn't know himself, I don't think.

Rāmeśvara: What is this editor of Kalya?

Gargamuni: Kalyan? He's passed. H. P. Poddar.

Prabhupāda: He was very famous man.

Rāmeśvara: He's the editor of Gītā Press?

Gargamuni: Yes, but he's passed away.

Rāmeśvara: So you'd write . . . you have to write "the late." I have to go over every one of these with you. He said that, "It is a source of great pleasure for me that a long-cherished dream has materialized and is going to be materialized."

Prabhupāda: He was speaking to me that, "Swāmījī, I was thinking of presenting such Bhāgavatam, but I could not. But you have done." Therefore he said: "Cherished dream."

Rāmeśvara: "I thank the Lord that due to His grace this publication could see the light."

Gargamuni: He's a Prime Minister.

Prabhupāda: I first of all approached him for publishing my book. So he said that, "I have no arrangement for publishing nice English book." So he recommended Dalmia to help me publish it. So my first expenditure was six thousand rupees. So he gave me four thousand.

Gargamuni: Oh!

Hari-śauri: Dalmia.

Gargamuni: Dalmia.

Prabhupāda: In Dalmia Trust, he was one of the member, this Poddar. So he immediately rubbered that, that "Give Swāmījī for the first publication." But I did not know that it would be six thousand rupees. I thought maybe four, five thousand. So he gave me four thousand, I think. So balance, two thousand, I repaid after selling the books.

Hari-śauri: You had to get a loan? A loan for that two thousand, or . . .

Prabhupāda: Loan means printer. I had no other . . . so . . . (break) (end)