770428 - Conversation A - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

770428R1-BOMBAY - April 28, 1977 - 32:17 Minutes

(Vairagya, salaries, and political etiquette)

Prabhupāda: Niṣkiñcanasya. One who has decided that, "This world is useless. I have to take birth repeatedly and accept different types of bodies and suffer . . ." Body means . . . those who have understood this fact and disgusted, so bhakti line is for them. One who has the tendency to enjoy this material world, and they are taking advantage of God, "Give me good wife, give me good work, good meal, good enjoyment," they are not in the bhakti line. They are in the very nascent stage.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nescient stage?

Prabhupāda: Lower stage. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yogam (CC Madhya 6.254). That . . . there is one verse written by Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. What page I don't . . . Śikṣārtham. The bhakti-yoga, nija-bhakti-yoga . . . bhakti-yoga means devotion to Kṛṣṇa. And that is vairāgya-vidyā, how to learn, renounce this world. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave up His gṛhastha life? He's the same person. Why Rūpa Gosvāmī gave up their ministership? By their personal behavior they are showing this is not required. Hmm? This is vairāgya-vidyā. So under the circumstances, those who have no vairāgya, they cannot live in the temple. They are taking advantage of the temple facilities for their sense enjoyment. Do you understand?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I do.

Prabhupāda: So that should be stopped. So to live with wife, together as a gṛhastha, and enjoy gṛhastha life, at the same time to live in temple, this should be discouraged. Temple is meant for brahmacārī and sannyāsī, our, mainly, not for gṛhastha, because they have got inclination to enjoy. To live with wife means enjoyment. They'll have sex. This should be discouraged. But one who is absolutely required, they also cannot be allowed to live together. It is badly done. Suppose if one is gṛhastha, he is in devotional service, but he has no money to look after his wife. In that case the wife can live in the temple, but separately with women, not together. Together living is very disturbing. It is not at all recommended. Give this point. At least, this should not be encouraged.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally in our temples, within the temple building no gṛhasthas live together, but in the temple compound—that is to say, around the temple, there may be other buildings—there they live together. But it's . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I am speaking within the temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think practically all over the Society that has been stopped, the gṛhastha living together with wife. I don't think there's any case like that. But in the adjoining buildings they might be . . .

Prabhupāda: Adjoining building . . . but the temple should not provide them with salary to enjoy their life. That is same thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Generally the temples are providing them with apartments, like that.

Prabhupāda: But that is temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Just like we have got so many tenants. They are living in their own. But they have no connection with the temple, neither the temple is paying them or . . . no, they are earning their own way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, if the temple provides an apartment, it's the same as paying a salary.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, giving an apartment is the same thing as providing a salary.

Prabhupāda: All right, apartment can be . . . but what is this? They are given high salary. Because his service is essential—"All right, you take apartment."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But not . . .

Prabhupāda: You take prasādam. But why salary? Where is the question of salary? Where is vairāgya, renouncement? So in all circumstances the salary process should be stopped. One who wants salary, he can work outside.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, even if you don't give a salary, if you give an apartment and you give food and you give all these other things for someone to maintain his household life . . .

Prabhupāda: Because his service is essential.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that has to be determined very strictly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Whether his service is absolutely required. So you give him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the factor. That point must be clearly acknowledged.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, hmm. So he's trying to practice . . . because sevonmukhe: if he gives service, then gradually he'll renounce. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234). God realization means service. The more you give service to the Lord, the more you become advanced in devotional . . . so one who is giving service, dedicated life, so maybe. But no salary. They may live in the temple, woman separate, man separate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're . . . but the actual thing is that they're being . . . living together in an apartment, and the temple is paying for that apartment. They're not living separately in the temple. They're being . . .

Prabhupāda: That is to be discouraged. What do you think?

Girirāja: I agree.

Prabhupāda: In Los Angeles it is very freely going on. In the name of Vaiṣṇavism they are drawing salary, living comfortably, having sense enjoyment. This is not good, not at all. So you all high officers, you think over it and do the needful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vairāgya should be cultivated.

Prabhupāda: Vairāgya . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu says clearly that niṣkiñcanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya (CC Madhya 11.8). The bhagavad-bhajana, to become devotee of the Lord, means he's disgusted with this material world. For him, bhagavad-bhajana. Just like if I become disgusted with something, I require some change; similarly, bhagavad-bhajana is for him who is absolutely disgusted with this material world. And anyone who has got little interest in material enjoyment, he's not fit for bhagavad-bhajana. He'll have to accept again this material body, either he becomes Brahmā or becomes a ant in the stool, according to his karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha-upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). He'll have to develop certain type of body according to his desire of enjoyment. This is nature's law. Then where is the question of going back to home, back to Godhead? Why so many varieties of life? There is Brahmā, and there is ant in the stool. So vairāgya-vidyā-nija . . . Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu vairāgyam (SB 1.2.7). And vairāgyam means jñānam ca. When one is in full knowledge that "To remain in this material world is useless for me"—jñānam—"I am simply wasting my time by repetition of birth and death," then he can have vairāgya. "Stop this!" If this sense is not awakened, there is no bhakti. It is not so easy. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). That is vairāgya. So vairāgya-vidyā . . . otherwise why big, big persons, they renounced everything? Bharata Mahārāja, young man, the emperor of the whole world, gave up everything. Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally teaches—young man, good, beautiful wife, young wife, so affectionate mother, so much honor in the society, Nimāi Paṇḍita, so beautiful body . . . Tyaktvā sudustyaja-surepsita-rājya-lakṣmīm (SB 11.5.34). Surepsita. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's position was, even the demigods, they desired such family life. But He still gave up. That is teaching. Therefore Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya says, vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhak . . . śikṣārtham: "to teach others." He understood that in order to teach others vairāgya-vidyā . . . He is the Supreme Person. Vairāgya-vidyā-nija-bhakti-yoga-śikṣārtham ekaḥ purāṇa-puruṣaḥ (CC Madhya 6.254): "That He was, Supreme Lord. Now He has appeared as Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya." Śarīra-dhārī: "He has accepted one body as Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya." So these things should be stopped, that they should live comfortably with husband and wife, children, and take salary from the . . . you decide. This is not to our . . . besides that, in our BBT it is clearly written that, "Fifty percent for printing book and fifty percent for . . ." So you cannot violate this. Those who can give voluntary service, "Welcome." Otherwise we don't require. At least they should not be given any salary. That is very bad. This is against principle.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was reading the life sketch of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. He always maintained a government service job, and still . . .

Prabhupāda: He gave so much service to Kṛṣṇa. From his family maintenance . . . he could have renounced, but he said that the family has to be maintained. So he . . . markaṭa-vairāgya. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was against giving sannyāsa. He didn't like these bābājīs. They were markaṭa-vairāgya, superficially . . . markaṭa-vairāgya means monkey. They live naked, eat fruits, live in the jungle. That is vairāgya. But three dozen wives. Markaṭa-vairāgya. Markaṭa means monkey. Superficially vairāgya, nāgā-bābā. They eat vegetables, fruits, live in the jungle, no house, or, all—everything like vairāgya. But sex. We have . . . I have seen in Vṛndāvana. They have got a party, each monkey, women's party, and the male will come to any female, "Now ready," "Enter." You can see it. Markaṭa-vairāgya nāhi paraloka dasaya. So this should not be encouraged. Then gradually it will deteriorate things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Christians had that happen to them.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Christian religion had that deterioration. Everything deteriorated more and more into sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: Because they have no valid philosophy. It is simply official. They have nothing—no knowledge, no nothing, simply that dress and cloth. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like the original . . . when Jesus was there and he had twelve disciples, they simply gave up everything and traveled with him and tried to preach. So they were renunciates, living simply whatever they could take, nothing more, and devoting their lives to God. But the followers later on, more and more they added the degree of sense gratification, till now you can't see any renunciation at all within their order.

Prabhupāda: No, they are drinking. They are having homosex. They are encouraging homosex, giving man-to-man marriage. You know that? This is going on. Doing everything nonsense.

Girirāja: Actually their leader . . .

Prabhupāda: And they are concluding that they cannot stop committing sins and Jesus Christ will take account for them. Therefore it is very good religion that, "We can do whatever nonsense we like, and if we keep our faith in Jesus Christ, then we are saved." Pāpa-buddhiḥ. Nāmno balād pāpa-buddhiḥ. Great offenders. (pause) So what news?

Girirāja: Well, the reason I came up is I'm going to try to phone Mr. Rajda now.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Girirāja: Going to try to phone Mr. Rajda. And considering that the Prime Minister may not have that much time . . . we had discussed that he should come here to meet you, but suppose if we fix up, say, a minimum time if he can't come here, say at least a half hour undisturbed, something like that, is it possible to fix in the city, or we should just insist that . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's suggesting that if the Prime Minister can't give that much time, whether you would go to see him? Actually, if you give the idea that Prabhupāda wants to see him in the morning hours . . .

Girirāja: Yeah, I'm going to.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, if he says that that's not possible . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not respectful.

Girirāja: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not at all respectful.

Prabhupāda: Then he does not know how to honor a saintly person. It is useless to meet him. If he has no respect for saintly person, if he thinks greater than saintly person, then he's useless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then nothing will come of it, anyway. And if we give this opportunity, that he come in the morning, if he . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, apart from that, if he has got that sense that, "I am very big man, so everyone should come here," he's useless. We cannot do anything with him.

Girirāja: That's what I thought.

Prabhupāda: Very beginning is . . .

Girirāja: On the wrong foot.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he has to come to see you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Oh, there's so many examples in the śāstra of great personalities . . .

Prabhupāda: Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu refused to see, what to speak of going there.

Girirāja: I agree with you.

Prabhupāda: Even big, big kings, Akbar, Mansingh, they used to . . . used to come to Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Girirāja: No, I agree with you completely.

Prabhupāda: Did . . . he demanded like that?

Girirāja: No. When I spoke to Mr. Rajda I said that the Prime Minister should come here, and Mr. Rajda agreed. But just now, when I . . . I just spoke to Gopāla. I was on my way to make the call. So he said that I should just ask you about this.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Girirāja: I was just going to phone, and I mentioned to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu that I was going to make this call. So I said that, you know, the Prime Minister was going to be coming here, so he . . . and I said that I also, in the call I wanted to make that very clear, so there was no mistake. And he said that, well, he might be too busy to come here and that he . . .

Prabhupāda: Gopāla said.

Girirāja: Yeah. So I thought it would be better just to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of.

Girirāja: Yeah. No, I agree completely. I mean, you're millions and billions of times greater than anyone, so there's no question . . .

Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, if one has no proper respect for a saintly person, he's useless man. You cannot have any benefit. Or neither he can derive any benefit.

Girirāja: Yeah.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From all sides.

Girirāja: Because he'll think he has nothing to learn, that he is already in the best position.

Prabhupāda: And we don't require any from . . . anything from them. But for the whole human society's welfare we can suggest him, "Do like this." That is our . . . but we don't require anything from them.

Girirāja: I know that. This is your . . .

Prabhupāda: Of course, sometimes we are in difficulty; we ask them something.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that's their duty, anyway. Kṣatriyas should provide protection for the saintly person.

Girirāja: Anyway, our real protector is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: He has . . . because we've seen so many difficulties. Nobody could see any solution, but . . .

Prabhupāda: That one Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotee was ordered to be hanged.

Girirāja: I didn't know that.

Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha Paṭṭanāyaka.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: All the devotees approached Caitanya Mahāprabhu, thinking that, "He must . . . the king will excuse him." He never agreed. "Oh, I cannot do that. If he has done something wrong, then let him . . ." Of course, he was saved and protected by Caitanya Mahāprabhu's good will, but He never agreed. These are some of the examples that . . . simply depend on Kṛṣṇa. But if they are actually respectful, we can ask them. There is . . . but if it is difficult job . . . viṣayiṇāṁ sandarśanām atha yoṣit . . . (CC Madhya 11.8). We cannot keep so strictly, but these are the principles taught by Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Girirāja: So that principle about living together and salary . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Girirāja: That is meant to apply everywhere in the Society.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is exploitation of the Society.

Girirāja: I know. Since I've been preaching more, I've been able to see how much labor and endeavor is going in just to maintain so many idle people. I know you've been saying this for a long time, and now, you know, I feel the strength to actually change that, that only those who are really sincere workers can stay.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise no need. We need their service, but not by being salaried. That is not good. (end)