760206 - Morning Walk - Mayapur

Morning Walks by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Morning Walk

760206MW-MAYAPUR - February 06, 1976 - 49:30 Minutes

Hṛdayānanda: . . .absorbed in thinking that, for example, in this material world a sunset is very nice or something is very nice. But if, for example, in Māyāpur is a devotee free to, for example, enjoy the, all the scenery without . . .

Prabhupāda: Do you think Māyāpur is material world?

Hṛdayānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? Why you are asking?

Hṛdayānanda: That is what I was thinking, that this is . . .

Prabhupāda: Dhāma. Therefore it is called dhāma. Dhāma means not material world. Goloka-dhāma, Vṛndāvana-dhāma. So dhāma is not material world. (aside:) Not to go away. (break) . . .visible with these eyes, similarly, dhāma also is not visible with these eyes. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (BS 5.38). That is dhāma. Premāñjana-cchurita. (break)

Jagadīśa: In Toronto, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . When we purchased the new church in Toronto we sold all the church pews. And Billy Graham . . . Do you know who Billy Graham is? He's an Evangelist preacher in the United States. He sometimes went to that church to preach. So when we sold the pews we would tell people that "Billy Graham sat in this pew," and they would become excited to purchase.

Prabhupāda: So it was sold in good price?

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's nice.

Hṛdayānanda: As you are always saying, Prabhupāda, these people are not becoming purified. This one man who Jagadīśa mentioned, he's the most famous Christian preacher practically in the Western world. Now he's becoming older, about sixty. Recently they asked him that "If you could live your life again, would you live the same life or a different life?" So he said, "I am very sorry because I spent too much of my time preaching. I should have spent more time with my family."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he actually said that?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes. At the end of life this is his . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's the foremost Christian preacher in the world right now, Prabhupāda.

Hṛdayānanda: He said, "I accepted too many invitations to go preach. I should have spent time with my family."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will make him more popular, and they'll say he's more religious.

Hṛdayānanda: (break) . . .already left to preach.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. (break) Eh? Dhunvanti. Aghaṁ dhunvanti kārtsnyena nīhāram iva bhāskaraḥ (SB 6.1.15). This is Kṛṣṇa. In one second He can make it purified. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (BG 18.66). Simply surrender.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like our desire not to surrender is very powerful because Kṛṣṇa is so . . .

Prabhupāda: Not powerful. Yes, powerful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa is so powerful, and yet our nonsense is so strong that we can resist such a powerful force as Kṛṣṇa's love.

Prabhupāda: Now the whole sky clear, hundreds of miles.

Bhavānanda: It's a little early, Śrīla Prabhupāda. A little early for entering . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .all right? Where is in-charge? (break) . . .and clan spirit. Aborigines, they fight amongst their clans.

Hṛdayānanda: Aborigines?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Africa.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda? You wrote in a letter to Bhagavān . . . You said that originally the Europeans had Āryan-type culture but they have become degraded.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are still Āryan. Europeans are Āryan, Indo-Āryan. That is admitted in history.

Hṛdayānanda: You said that they became degraded by associating . . ., by bad . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, by association with these aborigines.

Hṛdayānanda: Who were the aborigines they associated with?

Prabhupāda: Everywhere there were aborigines. In India there are still aborigines, ādivāsī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were saying, Prabhupāda, the Hūṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hūṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Hūṇa. They were considered like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hūṇa are also lower than the śūdras, caṇḍālas, dog-eaters, animal-eaters. And these Europeans historians, they take the aborigines, their original father.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their what, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Original father.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said, "Yes, they are your original father."

Prabhupāda: No, no. "The aborigines, the naked jaṅgalīs, they were original person." Do they not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Before that, there was the cavemen.

Prabhupāda: Ah, caveman. That's . . . Caveman. That is aborigine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And before the caveman was the missing link.

Prabhupāda: And he has known missing link.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't know who they're missing, 'cause he's missing.

Prabhupāda: Just see the imagination, fanatic imagination. He is creating . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Species.

Prabhupāda: . . .a theory, a species.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Missing link species. And they have . . . They have models of this missing link.

Prabhupāda: They know it; still "missing."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Although it's missing . . .

Prabhupāda: "Missing" means they know only, "Oh, he knows."

Hṛdayānanda: When I was preaching in California, one very famous anthropologist came to speak there, and he gave a new theory about the origin of the species. So he said . . . Before the audience he said that "Actually we have very little evidence of this theory."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hṛdayānanda: He said that "We have very little evidence for this theory," but he said that "All of you should not be disturbed, because our previous theory, we had no evidence whatsoever. (laughter) So this is an improvement."

Prabhupāda: He admitted. "Previous theory, that was nonsense," and still the nonsense going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "So don't be disturbed."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "So you are dealing with all nonsense. Don't be disappointed."

Hṛdayānanda: Another professor, he was very, a world famous geneticist, professor of genetics, and he was . . . I remember, when I was a student there, he was always trying to prove that there was no God. That was his mission. So he was in so much anxiety—he's an older man—that he would simply stand up every day and shake. During the whole class he was actually shaking with anxiety. He could hardly speak. He was famous scientist.

Prabhupāda: Why he was shaking?

Hṛdayānanda: He was in so much anxiety. He was very, very nervous. He would just shake, always trying to prove there is no God. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .their society, and they are advocating, "No temple or Deity worship." So one boy, so he was a member of this society. So there is Śītalā-mātā, the goddess of smallpox. So he had some trouble in the house, smallpox. So he thought of going to the Śītalā-mātā's temple. So he's entering the temple and seeing in this way, "Mother, I am your devotee but they will tax me. Therefore I am going out." (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So this man, he is afraid of God, but he has to preach there is no God. So he was feeble.

Hṛdayānanda: In every class he would smoke at least four or five cigarettes. He was so nervous. (break)

Prabhupāda: The living entity is victimized, and in this life you can adventure to conquer over it. This is human life. The cats and dogs, they cannot fight with maya, but a human being, he can fight. So if we don't fight, we don't take that adventure, then we remain cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they fight amongst themselves but not with the maya. So aborigines, although they have got features of human being, they are no more than the cats and dogs. So they also fight amongst themselves. They do not know that the fighting spirit should be utilized to declare war against maya. That is possible in human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This fighting is philosophy: "What is the ultimate cause? What is Brahman? What I am?" Fighting against darkness, sleeping. Kota nidrā jāo maya-piśācīra kole. Everyone is sleeping on the lap of maya. Now, this human form of life is not for sleeping but for awakening and fight with maya. That is human life. (break) You were reading the other day why the sun changes color after rising?

Jagadīśa: The refraction of the light rays.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: He said that the light rays pass through the clouds, and this diverts the light rays in different ways.

Prabhupāda: So where is the cloud?

Jagadīśa: Not necessarily a cloud.

Dayānanda: Through the atmosphere, the air.

Indian man (1): Atmosphere density is different, so it changes.

Prabhupāda: Density?

Jagadīśa: When it is directly overhead . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, it is fixed up. Why it should change?

Jagadīśa: When it's directly overhead, there is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, overhead means it has gone. If it is fixed, why it should change color?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have gone; it has not.

Jagadīśa: It changes color to us. It doesn't change color. To our eyes . . .

Prabhupāda: Why?

Jagadīśa: . . .the color changes.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Jagadīśa: Because our eyes are not so . . ., are blunt.

Hṛdayānanda: They say because the light rays . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. If the sun is fixed, so why our eyes will change? If we see in the beginning, as you see, it is red, and it is fixed, it should remain red.

Hṛdayānanda: They say the atmosphere changes.

Jagadīśa: The light of the sun filters through the . . .

Prabhupāda: Atmosphere changes? Where is atmosphere changes? It is the same atmosphere. We saw in red and the atmosphere same.

Jagadīśa: Angle.

Hari-śauri: According to your angle of vision.

Indian man (1): Medium. Medium. Prabhupāda, there is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, you are all scientists, I know. Please talk with one body. What is that?

Jagadīśa: There's an angle . . .

Prabhupāda: (laughter) All rascals. Scientists means all rascals. That I know. You haven't got to explain. I am trying to understand that if the sun is . . . Suppose a red light is fixed. So red light is always red light. Why it should be white? What is the cause?

Jagadīśa: They say there's a spectrum . . .

Prabhupāda: "They say." What you say? What you have understood?

Jagadīśa: There's a spectrum of different colors which, combined together, is white light, but when the light bends, the different colors of light bend at different angles, so that the . . .

Prabhupāda: Why the light bends? I am a crude man; I am not scientist. I say I see one red light there. So it is always red. Why it should be white?

Jagadīśa: But the sunlight . . .

Prabhupāda: Again "sunlight." Please explain this. The light is fixed, and it is reddish. So why it should change?

Jagadīśa: Only part of the light reaches us, the red part, not all the . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyway, the color changes.

Jagadīśa: Because in the beginning, when the sun is red, only the red part of the light spectrum reaches our eyes.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That means it is moving. Red part is gone, then white part comes.

Jagadīśa: Then, when the rest of the light reaches our eyes it becomes white.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say we are moving. It is not moving; we are moving.

Prabhupāda: I am moving.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The earth is turning. The sun is . . .

Hṛdayānanda: They also say the sun is moving.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But very slowly. They say the earth is turning, so you see the sun as moving, but actually you are moving. Just like if you are in a car and you are moving, it may appear that just as . . . Sometimes you can see another object . . .

Prabhupāda: But that's all . . . But why the color should change? That is point. You may move.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because, he's explaining, that light is seen when it bends . . . White light, when it bends at different angles . . .

Prabhupāda: That is only applicable when you accept that the sun is moving. Therefore atmosphere is going . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the earth is moving.

Jagadīśa: They say the earth is turning. Therefore at a certain point the sun is actually below the horizon, but part of the sun's light, the red spectral, the red light of the sun, comes over the horizon, and so the sun appears . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Red, but actually it's not reddish; it's white or yellow, whatever.

Prabhupāda: Actually it is white, that's all right. But if you see one fixed thing, a color, practical experience is the color does not change if it is fixed up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supposing you are . . . Supposing there's a white light, and you are situated here, and in front of you is a screen with many colors, and you are moving different ways along this screen. Sometimes you are looking through a green, sometimes . . . In that way, although the light is fixed up, because you are moving behind different colored screens . . .

Prabhupāda: So where is that screen?

Jagadīśa: That's called the spectrum.

Prabhupāda: Spectrum. So where is that? That is also finished?

Hṛdayānanda: The atmosphere is.

Dayānanda: The atmosphere is the screen.

Jagadīśa: As the spectrum hits the atmosphere, it bends.

Dayānanda: Just like a prism, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Then the speed of the earth changes. Eh? In the morning you see the sun is very slowly rising, either sun's speed or your speed. But now you see it is rising very quickly.

Jagadīśa: That's explained that because the sun . . . Actually you can see it before it appears over the horizon, because the light rays reach our eyes before the sun actually comes up.

Hṛdayānanda: But that's only eight minutes' difference. That won't explain it, because the light rays reach in eight minutes. That won't explain it. That would only cause an eight minute difference.

Jagadīśa: No, no, no. No, it's not because of the time it takes. It's because of . . . The light rays bend. So they bend towards us before the sun comes up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't actually see the sun. You're seeing only a . . .

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda said, "But it rises so quickly."

Jagadīśa: Huh? Then, once it comes up over the horizon, we see it rise at its normal pace.

Hṛdayānanda: Doesn't explain. Word jugglery. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .that means fixed. (break)

Indian man (1): Fixed?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (1): Is not moving around the earth?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's further away from us than the sun and twice as big as the sun. Ask Prabhupāda how big is the moon.

Indian man (1): Prabhupāda, how big is this moon? Is much more bigger than this?

Prabhupāda: You can see in the Fifth Canto. There is.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You'll have to read the Fifth Canto.

Hṛdayānanda: That means that maya is just like a magician.

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. Therefore it is called maya. Māyā means magician. (laughter) Māyā means . . . Māyā means affection, maya means illusion, magician, so many things—strength, potency.

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is your explanation why the sun changes colors?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jagadīśa: What is your explanation as to why the sun changes colors?

Prabhupāda: Sun is moving. You are seeing through some color. Then it is color.

Jagadīśa: Seeing through some colors.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like there are . . . In your window there is glass, red. So sun is passing; you say sun red. And again it has come; it is white. That is our . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the scientists say the same thing except they say that the earth is moving, not the sun. Same explanation you have given for the colors, they give, except that they say that the earth that is moving, not the sun. They wouldn't accept that point as a proof that the sun is moving.

Prabhupāda: No, sun is moving because the earth and the sun . . . The distance is the same, but you can calculate the distance from the rising up to the . . . It is millions, millions of miles. So unless the sun is moving, the earth cannot move so swiftly.

Jagadīśa: They are always the same distance apart?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jagadīśa: The earth and the sun are always the same distance apart?

Prabhupāda: Same distance is to be supposed according to your theory, because sun is fixed.

Jagadīśa: According to our theory.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same distance. But you calculate that how quickly it comes. You calculate the distance.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, how can the earth move so quickly?

Jagadīśa: The earth is just spinning around.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes, they would say that that is not from the . . ., that is not from the earth moving around the sun. That is from the earth rotating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rotating on its axis.

Hṛdayānanda: And turning different sides, different faces to the sun.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And that's possible. That speed the earth could do.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That much speed the earth could do, simply to turn around on its own . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Hṛdayānanda: That's rotation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's rotation, it's not an orbit.

Jagadīśa: Like a top, spinning.

Indian man (1): From its axis.

Hṛdayānanda: So they say the earth is spinning around so fast.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why doesn't it fall over? That's another point, Prabhupāda. The earth is spinning, they say, but it's tilted on one side. So why it doesn't fall over?

Prabhupāda: This earth?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Scientists say the earth is like this.

Indian man (1): Yes. Making an angle, Prabhupāda, spinning around its axis.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: My question is how something doesn't fall, just fall over? Like a top. If you spin a top, when it starts spinning on its side it falls over.

Jagadīśa: But so far space is concerned, they don't see that there's a top or a bottom where it can fall.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why do they say axis? Axis means there's a top and a bottom. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .by mental platform, on the mental plane.

Jagadīśa: When I was in the university I took a course . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Yes. The same example. This was spoken by one scientist in Delhi, that if a man has learned how to imitate the dog barking, people will go to see him by purchasing ticket. But he won't hear the dog, real dog, barking. So we are like that. We are trying to imitate dog.

Jayapatākā: (shouts indistinctly)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it here, Jayapatākā? Yes, here. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .fective, what you can see from the observatory?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why they use a telescope: to make their eyes perfect.

Prabhupāda: Everything is imperfect.

Hṛdayānanda: Telescope also imperfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With the help of the telescope, then their eyes become perfect to an extent.

Prabhupāda: To ext . . . That is not perfect. As soon as you say "to extent," that means imperfect. Perfect to the point, that is perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Limitedly perfect.

Prabhupāda: That is not perfect.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your philosophy will be very unpopular with the general masses, Prabhupāda, because you are condemning everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are fools and rascals.

Hṛdayānanda: No, but Prabhupāda presents it so nicely that people will like it.

Indian man (1): Especially . . . (indistinct) . . ..

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's true, Prabhupāda. Sometimes you call them "rascal" to their face, and they like it.

Jagadīśa: That's what happened to us.

Indian man (1): Especially Indians. Lot of people like strong words. This rascal means . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America it's not such a strong word. In America that word "rascal" is not so strong as in India. In India when you use that word, they become very offended.

Indian man (1): Yes. Very strong.

Dayānanda: In America they like to be rascal.

Hṛdayānanda: In America if the father chastises the child, he calls him "rascal."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has a nice connotation. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .mayara adhikāra. Now the ruling of this, what is called, fog is finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything darkness finished. The sky is clear.

Hṛdayānanda: The fog was just on the ground. It wasn't up . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: I saw in the morning the fog was low, but it was not high up.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is finished, high or low. (break) . . .explain that there is such-and-such things in the sun, eh? They say?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then why do they not manufacture another imitation sun, if they know what is the composition?

Hṛdayānanda: They're so puffed up that they think that actually the credit is to them for discovering. Just like they . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is discovering? It is covering.

Hṛdayānanda: They give the example that if a tree falls in the forest and there is no man there to hear it, then actually it has not fallen.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hṛdayānanda: This is a philosophical example which is . . . This is the most common example they give, that if a tree falls in the forest but there is no man there, there is no one there to hear it, then actually it has never happened. Unless someone perceives it, then it does not exist. So they feel that when they discover something, at that time it begins to exist by their becoming conscious of it.

Prabhupāda: What is that explanation?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if you're sleeping and I kill you, and you weren't conscious that I was killing you, then you're still alive?

Prabhupāda: You are not killed. Then it comes as a . . . You can go to the court: "It is not killed."

Hṛdayānanda: They will say that . . . No, I will say. I will take the part of the rascal.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hṛdayānanda: I'll be the rascal. "No, actually I am killed, because even though I may not be conscious of it, someone is conscious of it. As long as someone must be . . . Just when something . . . It is necessary that someone be conscious of it."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, supposing in the woods. You're in the woods and I kill you during your sleep. There is no other human being there.

Hṛdayānanda: "But you were conscious of it. You were conscious of my death, so therefore my death is a fact."

Prabhupāda: Then in the forest there are no animals?

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They cannot . . . They are not conscious?

Hṛdayānanda: Well, if an animal hears, that's all right also. As long as someone is conscious.

Prabhupāda: In the forest there are many animals, hundreds and thousands. They are conscious that tree has fallen. Then?

Hṛdayānanda: Then it would also be acceptable. As long as some living being has . . .

Prabhupāda: Then what is this? Everywhere someone is conscious. There is no vacancy. So this is useless talking. Fool's talk.

Hṛdayānanda: In the outer space there is no consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Who says? The fools say. There are consciousness. There are so many birds flying from one planet . . .

Hṛdayānanda: Higher up.

Prabhupāda: Higher means it is higher for you because you are so dwarf. You are so dwarfed, you'll find that this tree is very big tree. You see? A small dwarf man, a pigmy, he'll say, "Oh, it is a big tree." So it is all relative. What is called? Relative world? Higher and lower, this is all relativity. You are so low that you see a teeny thing very high. It is due to your lowerness. Where there is no tree, these trees will be considered, "Oh, very high tree." So your scientists and your appreciator, all, they are like tiny dwarfs. What do they know about the universal affair? That is their fault. They are so small . . . That, the same example, Dr. Frog, calculating Atlantic Ocean. This is the fault. They do not consider their position. Just like there are thousands of ants. We can immediately kill them. And they are thinking they are very big, the ants, that "We are very busy. We are very big." So these rascals' position is like that. If the devatās in higher planets like, all the population of this material . . ., this earth, they can kill like this—finish, just like we can kill the ants.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in the Sixth Canto, second part, I haven't read it yet, but I saw a picture of a big demon who was fighting, and everyone else was just like little ants.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That was described in some English book, the man?

Hari-śauri: Gulliver's Travels.

Bhavānanda: Gulliver's Travels.

Prabhupāda: Ha, ha, yes. These rascals, they do not know there is Gulliver. They are thinking very big.

Bhavānanda: Also, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when there is some natural calamity . . . Like I read in the newspaper, four thousand people were killed immediately in Guatemala.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: That is also the demigods?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, greater than you, you admit it—demigods or God or anything. But why you are thinking yourself so big? That is your fault. That is foolishness. I am a big man amongst a small, teeny living entities. But why you are thinking you are biggest of all, you can understand everything? That is your fault. This is the folly of the conditioned soul. He is nothing. He has no value. Still, he is thinking he is very great. Everything is big and small relatively. Just like here, if one man has got 100,000 rupees, he's a big man. But what is 100,000 rupees in America?

Jagadīśa: Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Nothing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One year's salary for an average man.

Hṛdayānanda: A worker.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lakh-pati. Here they call, lakh-pati. Lakh-pati means owner of 100,000 rupees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Lakh-pati.

Prabhupāda: So what is this lakh-pati there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This fog appears just like an ocean, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It looks just like the ocean.

Prabhupāda: Frozen. Frozen ocean. Means they are defeated; they are coming down. By the sun they are defeated. They were high. "Now go down." Now it will be finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Burnt off. (break) What is the way to draw the line between the following three things: blasphemy, fault-finding and calling a spade a spade?

Prabhupāda: A spade a spade . . . Just like I am saying that "What you are? You are small fig only." That is reality. And what is the other?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The other is fault-finding and . . .

Prabhupāda: Fault-finding, that is another fault, that . . . Vraṇam icchanti, makṣikā vraṇam icchanti, madhum icchanti(?). Just like the flies, they are finding out where is sore, and the bees, they are finding out where there is honey. So two animals, they have got two business: fault-finding and collecting the good things. These are two . . . Just like creature. They are two classes. Similarly, there are many rascals who are simply fault-finding.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And blasphemy?

Prabhupāda: Blasphemy means you have good qualities, but still, I am defaming you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the saintly person tends to overlook the bad qualities and see the good ones.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like Kṛṣṇa's dealing with Pūtanā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hundreds and thousands of miles, this fog, simply by two minutes' light of the sun . . . (break) . . .working. If there was no sun, then so many ships are standing on the ocean. The cars, they are "bong, bong, bong, bong," so many disturbances. You see? You cannot do anything. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī (BG 7.14). What you can do? Immediately He can kill you all. Thousands of planets immediately finished. Bring your science to protect them. "No, not possible." Māre kṛṣṇa rākhe ke. When Kṛṣṇa desires to vanquish, nobody can save you. Finished. Still, these rascals say, "There is no God." Simply rascals. At least expose these rascals. We have no power to kill them, but at least we can expose them. That is also great service.

Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes, Prabhupāda, when we expose them, their argument is, "Oh, you are a saintly person. Why are you criticizing me?"

Prabhupāda: No, it is not criticizing. It is opening your eyes. You are blind, you are thinking yourself as very big, so we are opening eyes. You are not big. You are not even pig or fig. That is . . . Ajñāna-timirāndhasya jñānāñjana-śalākayā (Śrī guru-praṇāma). You are blind with ignorance, so we are trying to open your eyes. See things as they are. It is favoring you. It is not criticizing you. (break) . . .words: vibhu, the great, and aṇu, the small. So these rascals, they do not understand these two important words, "God is great; I am small." They think, "I am as good as God." This is the folly. (break) . . .English proverb? "Where angels dare not, the fools rush in." Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."

Prabhupāda: Yes, like that. So the angels—Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva—they are offering their obeisances, and these rascals are claiming, "I am God." How great rascals they are. Śiva-viriñci-nutam (SB 11.5.33). Śiva-viriñci-nutam. Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, they are offering their respects, and these things are: "I am equal with God." This Māyāvāda philosophy. Mūḍhas.

Dayānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, that tendency to be puffed up seems to be so strong, as soon as they get just a little bit of so-called qualification, then they . . . Everyone is becoming puffed up, even great personalities like Lord Indra and Lord Brahmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dayānanda: What to speak of all the . . .

Prabhupāda: Lord Brahmā is also one of the living entities.

Dayānanda: So how is it possible that . . . We're so insignificant, but at the same time we become so puffed up. How is it possible for us . . .?

Prabhupāda: That is material consciousness, that you are nothing; you are thinking very big. That is material consciousness. And as soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you'll simply think, "Kṛṣṇa is great; we are nothing, insignificant." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And so long you think that you are independent of Kṛṣṇa—you are also another Kṛṣṇa—then you are fool, rascal. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25).

Hṛdayānanda: That's our madness.

Prabhupāda: Madness. The whole world is going on on this foolish understanding. Therefore they have been described, mūḍha, all rascals. Anyone who is thinking, "There is no God, there is no Kṛṣṇa. It may be He is impersonal, there is no personality, and I am equal to Him"—these are all rascals, fools.

Dayānanda: So actually there is no way to become detached . . .

Prabhupāda: The only way is that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Dayānanda: . . .except through Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). You surrender to Kṛṣṇa and everything will be clear, just like as soon as the sun rises, everything is clear, no covering. That is our propaganda, that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious; then you become fully aware of everything. Otherwise you remain rascal, fools, gādhā, asses. If you prefer to remain asses, you can do so, but we are servant of Kṛṣṇa. We must preach real, reality.

Dayānanda: Even the jñānīs and yogīs become . . .

Prabhupāda: What is these jñānīs? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Therefore so-called jñānīs, after many, many births' practical realization, they surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā (BG 7.19). Then he understands that Kṛṣṇa is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ, very, very rare.

Dayānanda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?

Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktābhāsa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktābhāsa. Ābhāsa. Ābhāsa means a simple, a little light.

Hṛdayānanda: So devotee really means one who has love for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unalloyed, without any condition. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11), zero, all other, that "I am this," "I am that," "I am jñānī," "I am yogī," "I am karmī," "I am minister," "I am king"—all these are thinking like that, they're all nonsense. "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa"—that is greatness. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). That is self-realization, ātma-tattvam.

Dayānanda: So because that person is very rare, then I guess the only way we can possibly know how to become like that is to find one pure devotee and exactly follow that way of Kṛṣṇa consciousness that he has.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dayānanda: I mean to say that because a pure devotee is so rare, the only way must be to find out a pure devotee and exactly follow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you try to find out . . . (break) (end)