751029 - Conversation A - Nairobi

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

751029R1-NAIROBI - October 29, 1975 - 25:05 Minutes

Brahmānanda: City Hall is also there. United Nations has offices in that big building. They study the environment. It's environmental study.

Prabhupāda: That is another scheme. For the last thirty, forty years they could not study. "In future we shall be happy."

Caitaguru: Monday, president, he was addressing that . . . (indistinct) . . . there in the next park. So there was even helicopter. So they came to throw off flowers on him in the gathering. But suddenly the helicopter fell down there on the train. There was train was going on.

Brahmānanda: No, it was a jet plane.

Cyavana: It was a jet. Yes, one of the jets fell down.

Brahmānanda: They had the Air Force here. They have four jet planes.

Cyavana: Fighter jets.

Brahmānanda: Fighter jets, four of them only. And during the national celebration they fly in procession. So one of them fell down, killing the pilots.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Brahmānanda: These are very old jets that were supplied by the British. (Prabhupāda laughs) They're so proud of their four airplanes. Now they only have three.

Prabhupāda: Could not replace the other one.

Brahmānanda: I don't know if they've replaced it or not.

Cyavana: That's the British scheme.

Brahmānanda: They give them these things to "civilize" them.

Prabhupāda: (japa) (break) Nice.

Brahmānanda: Yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: You have meeting in this park?

Brahmānanda: Yes. Just on the other side of the road, the city park.

Cyavana: We used to come here on Sunday with that truck and have meetings in the afternoon.

Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda came here.

Cyavana: Yes. There was one meeting one Sunday. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . the name of this park?

Cyavana: It means "freedom." When they were able to obtain their freedom from the British rule they made this park, and they called it Uhuru Park.

Prabhupāda: How they got freedom?

Cyavana: They had to fight.

Prabhupāda: Fight?

Cyavana: Yes, they had to fight.

Brahmānanda: Mao-mao.

Prabhupāda: Regular violence?

Cyavana: Oh, yes. Very violent.

Brahmānanda: They would go into the farm . . . the Europeans owned all the farms. And they would go in vans with these knives and just cut everyone in the farm.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Cyavana: They cut everyone up into small chunks.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Brahmānanda: They cut them into pieces.

Cyavana: Into small pieces.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Cyavana: Yes, small chunks.

Prabhupāda: Ferocious.

Cyavana: Oh, yes. Very.

Brahmānanda: And it just happened recently, one political opposition leader, he was brought to some place near Nairobi and he was . . . his genitals were cut off, his eyes were . . .

Prabhupāda: Plucked out.

Cyavana: Then he was shot.

Brahmānanda: Then he was shot.

Prabhupāda: African?

Brahmānanda: There was a big scandal, because the police were implicated.

Prabhupāda: This parking plan are made by them?

Brahmānanda: I don't know.

Cyavana: The park itself?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Cyavana: This park? The British. They designed all these parks and roads.

Brahmānanda: I know that other park—yesterday or the other day we went—that was done by the British. They've taken plants from all over East Africa.

Prabhupāda: All these buildings are constructed by the Britishers.

Cyavana: Some Indian organizations, firms, come also. Big construction companies from India, they are combined.

Brahmānanda: Usually, in all of the business concerns here, the top man is British, managing their activity.

Prabhupāda: So when they kill such brutally in the farm, the Britisher did not take any step?

Brahmānanda: Not very effective steps. They declared a state of emergency, and they brought soldiers here, and they had huge arrests. They had camps just outside of Nairobi, and they were arresting tens of thousands, huge camps. But the tactics that they would use, the Africans, the British soldiers couldn't . . .

Prabhupāda: They brought British soldiers or Indian soldiers?

Brahmānanda: I'm not sure.

Prabhupāda: British soldiers, so long, how they'll come? They were using Indian soldiers.

Indian man: I know that Indians peoples, they helped them to get this freedom. That is the reason they have a little bit respect for the Indians now, this president.

Prabhupāda: How Indian people helped them?

Brahmānanda: They would give their . . . these groups of guerrillas, the Indians would supply them and use their facilities and their farmhouses. And then also, legally, the Indians were able to give, from their experience in India. They were able to make some government, some kind of a freedom government system. They agitated to get representation in the Parliament, and they became . . . when independence came, there were many Indians as M.P.'s here. And even when Kenyatta was put on trial by the British, he had one . . . his chief lawyer was a Britisher, but the second lawyer was an Indian. Also, the union movement was . . . one Indian, he helped organize the . . . (indistinct)

Indian man: I was talking with a judge. He is a Sikh gentleman here. So he told me that, "In the freedom we all helped, and I was not a judge at that time. I was a ordinary advocate. So I play a nice role to get them freedom, so they appointed me a judge after that." Now he is judge since last fifteen years. Indian judge.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Cyavana: Is that Makhajee?

Indian man: No . . . (indistinct)

Brahmānanda: The Indians had the experience of the independence in India to draw on for inspiration, and also for their strategies and so on, to guide the Africans.

Prabhupāda: And now they are trying to drive away Indians.

Caitaguru: Now they have brought a income tax official all from India here. So the Indian peoples, they were giving up money to Africa, and taking money to London and U.K., here and there. So now they have brought out from India. They are very strict. People still take money, but they have more to take than the Africans. The African people are very poor, and they were giving them so much money and taking money out of it. It is difficult for them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These people can be brought under control by bribing. There is no problem. They have no moral strength, and poor. They will accept bribe. I think by bribing it is still going on. Otherwise how they can stop this bribing? That is not possible.

Cyavana: No. This is their major problem, the immigration authorities. Once the people come here and start to make their exploitation, they cannot get them out. So they make all kinds of artificial regulations—you have to have so much money; you have to have this, and that, your ticket, so many things—to try to stop people from coming here, because once they're here, they just pay their way, and then they get anything they want.

Prabhupāda: The simple method, that everything belongs to God. The king is the representative of God, and he distributes the land amongst the kṣatriyas. Just like knighthood, or in Mussulman times, subedat, and in Hindu times, the subordinate king. Just like Pāṇḍavas, they were the emperors, and under them there were many hundreds and thousands of kings, states. And everything belongs to God. So why fighting? Take it. It is God's property. We are all sons of God. But there is no culture, Āryan culture. They do not know how to live peacefully and cultivate spiritual culture. They do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśāya ye bahir-artha . . . (SB 7.5.31). And durāśāya, bad hopes, or hopes against hope, they're trying to be happy, bahir-artha, by the external energy, material, most fallen ideas. All foolish theories, without any knowledge. Material, that's all. Bahir artha, external energy. Otherwise there is no cause of anxiety or distress. There is enough land. They can produce enough food and live peacefully. They are talking of peace, but they do not know how peace can be achieved. They are hankering after peace, but they do not know how to achieve peace. And that formula is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: Accept God as the proprietor; then there will be peace. Something stolen from the proprietor by some thieves, and when they sit down to take their shares, there will be fight. The property is stolen, and they are sharing. Now, one will say: "Oh, I have worked so hard. You are giving me so little share?" And others will say: "No, no, we have worked equally." Somebody, "No . . ." In this way there will be fight.

Brahmānanda: This is going on in the United Nations now.

Prabhupāda: It will go, because they are all thieves. When the stolen property is to be divided, there will be fight.

Cyavana: Like a band of pirates. Pirates. They always fight amongst themselves and kill each other.

Prabhupāda: That is natural. When they plunder, they are united, and when they share, there will be fight. This is psychology. When plundering others' property they will unite and take the whole thing, and then, when they come for sharing, there will be fight. This is the psychology everywhere. Therefore there are so many parties. Just like in India the . . . of course, Congress Party was the predominant to fight with the Britishers. And as soon as they got independence, so many hundred thousand parties grew up: the Congress Party, the RSS party, the Hindu Mahasabha party, the Muslim League party, this party, this party. And then they began to fight. This is going on. Senayor eva sa ucyate. All these thieves and rascal, rogues . . . God's property, why you should fight among themselves? Property belongs to somebody else. Insanity. Just like this is government park. Anyone can come in. Everyone can equally enjoy. So why not make the whole world as Kṛṣṇa's park? What is the difficulty? Actually it is the fact. Why do you claim? Now we have come. If we say: "No, this portion belongs to us," and another, "This portion belongs to us," then there will be fight. And if we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, every one of us, that if they see Kṛṣṇa's property, so let us enjoy. What is the cause of fighting? (pause) The hotels are the centers for all kinds of sinful activity. Huh? Illicit sex, drinking, gambling and meat-eating. No discrimination.

Brahmānanda: Near our temple there's a big . . . it's called the International Casino, and they advertise in the newspaper, and they have little drawings of people engaged in gambling, meat-eating, show girls and intoxication.

Cyavana: Intoxication. Alcohol.

Prabhupāda: This is the only means of material enjoyment.

Cyavana: This means they're constantly in fear.

Prabhupāda: Must be.

Cyavana: They must be fearing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bodily conception life means misery and fear.

Brahmānanda: In Mauritius one of our . . . he's a Life Member, he's a contractor. He's constructing a hotel that has four floors. On one floor is the gambling casino, one floor is the restaurant, one floor is the cabaret, and one floor is the . . . also rooms for the women to stay.

Prabhupāda: Naturally people are not very much interested in our movement.

Brahmānanda: Because these four things that they are supporting, we are against.

Caitaguru: I asked that pilot who was staying in our Bombay, Juhu land.

Prabhupāda: Hah. Mr. Sharma?

Caitaguru: Not Sharma. That pilot. He's a pilot.

Brahmānanda: Oh, Acharya.

Indian man: Acharya.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Acharya.

Caitaguru: He was staying in the International Hotel, so I asked him, "Why don't you come and stay with us? Stay there and attend the ārati and take Kṛṣṇa prasāda." But he refused.

Cyavana: But he visited the temple here.

Indian man: He visited. He said: "No, hotel is good."

Prabhupāda: Once they are accustomed to take these four things, especially meat-eating and drinking, it is not possible to give it up. Very difficult. Without drinking wine or without eating meat, they do not feel refreshed.

Cyavana: They're in such anxiety all throughout the day that at night they cannot sleep unless they have a woman and some meat and some wine. Their minds cannot rest unless they take them.

Prabhupāda: When we shall go?

Cyavana: Shall we go now?

Prabhupāda: No, I am asking when we shall go.

Brahmānanda: At the temple, the Deities are open at seven o'clock. It's now twenty minutes after seven, so they're having ārati now. Ārati will be finished in just ten minutes.

Prabhupāda: So we can go? (end)