750615 - Conversation D - Honolulu

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

750615R4-HONOLULU - June 15, 1975 - 53:36 Minutes

Prabhupāda: (indistinct—kīrtana in background throughout) . . . policy to make him surrender. There is no question of canvassing. Then he will automatically take . . . (indistinct) . . . but if you say that only required, then . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: There is a difference between saying that you don’t require initiation and saying that they should chant and become prepared, they should prepare themselves first in their understanding before you request initiation. Because I see so many people, they push people to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they should be advised to chant. At least at this time they should be advised to become qualified so that they can be initiated. Just like we see Arjuna. Arjuna was talking to Kṛṣṇa just like friend, but when the puzzling was not solved, then he said, "I don’t find anyone who can solve my problem; therefore I accept You as my spiritual master," śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). So to get knowledge, that would be first. Kṛṣṇa was not talking with him very seriously. He was talking, "No, it is your duty to kill. Even this fighting in the battlefield, you should not be weak. Come on." But when he surrendered to Him, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam, then He seriously spoke what is Bhagavad-gītā. So that is required—to be serious in accepting spiritual master, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. But if that seriousness is not there, then it makes a mockery of initiation.

Prabhupada: No, there is no question of mockery.

Siddha-svarūpa: No, but if the seriousness is not there . . .

Prabhupāda: That means your preaching is not good, because you are not preaching seriously. That means your preaching is failure, you see? But you should go on, but you should know also that "These men are not becoming serious. Then what is the use of initiation?" You cannot give it up. Then your preaching becomes less important.

Siddha-svarūpa: So the . . .

Prabhupāda: Preaching means, just like Kṛṣṇa was preaching Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, and Arjuna in the beginning was not serious to fight. But when he heard Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . then he agreed, "Yes, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā." Find out this verse,

naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā

tvat-prasādān mayācyuta

(BG 18.73)

Paramahaṁsa:

naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā

tvat-prasādān mayācyuta

sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ

kariṣye vacanaṁ tava

(BG 18.73)

"Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy. I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions."

Prabhupāda: This is preaching. Preaching should be there, and the listener should be prepared, "Yes, I will accept." That is success of preaching. Otherwise go on for three millions of years talking, and he is not prepared. Now read the purport.

Paramahaṁsa: Purport: "The constitutional position of a living entity, represented by Arjuna, is that he has to act according to the order of the Supreme Lord."

Prabhupāda: So according to the order of the Supreme Lord or according to the order of the Lord's representative. This is the position if one has learnt. But if he is talking nonsense, then he has got nothing. Then preaching is failure. That preaching is failure, and the student is also failure. So what is the use of wasting time like that? Actually we are talking about śāstra. The principle is that guru should explain the śāstra amongst the disciples, not outsiders. That is the principle. Because others will not understand. The guru is supposed to speak amongst his followers. That is the stricture: tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). For learning, gurum eva, therefore guru is accepted. Unless you accept somebody as guru, then how can you learn from them? So actually the principle is guru speaks not to the outsiders but to the followers. Others may not understand. But if others, outsiders, come and also hear, then they will be profited. That advantage is given to them. But if they come and if they do not understand . . . of course, sometimes we give them chance, but if he does not come to this position as Arjuna has come, then it is failure. But sometimes we give them the chance, outsiders: "All right you can . . . (indistinct) . . ." But unless you come to this position, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), "Yes, I shall act only according to Your order," then it will . . . (indistinct) . . . that means he has not understood everything. He remains the same fool.

Siddha-svarūpa: But it is very easy to say that "I will act according to your order." But many people who become initiated . . .

Prabhupāda: Then he has cheated.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. So my point is . . . my feeling is that . . .

Prabhupāda: Let them cheat! Your point is let them cheat, and we will go on.

Siddha-svarūpa: No, no. My feeling is that there are many people who . . . they are not ready to make such a vow. They aren’t feeling that strong.

Prabhupāda: For them, engage them in kīrtana. Nothing more is . . . if you find such men, then don’t give them instruction. It is no use sowing some seed in the sand; there will be no result. Better let them hear this chanting, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. By hearing, hearing, hearing, when their heart will be cleansed, they will surrender. Therefore for general mass of people, don’t talk instructions. They will not be able to understand. Simply let . . . (indistinct) . . . and advise them. Let them come, chant, dance, take prasādam and go away. And when they are prepared to follow the rules and regulations, they are initiated. But give them chance. You must, "All right, please come, chant, dance, take prasādam and go. But if you want to live with us, then you have to follow the rules." This you have to.

Siddha-svarūpa: What about those who are willing to follow the four regulative principles, but they want to be able to live with their own friends and families or by themselves?

Prabhupāda: Let them live in families home . . . (indistinct) . . . in the temple only the properly situated persons strictly following the regulative principles, they should be allowed.

Siddha-svarūpa:Well . . .

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, everyone is welcome. You come here, chant, dance, take prasādam and go back home.

Siddha-svarūpa: Well a lot of these people who . . . they are willing to follow the regulative principles, and they are chanting. They are chanting in their homes. They actually are philosophically interested. I would feel that it would be wrong for me not to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Siddha-svarūpa: . . . try to answer their questions if they have some.

Prabhupāda: That you are doing by giving chance. But he should know that unless he agrees, like Arjuna, that "Yes."

Siddha-svarūpa: Ultimately, yes, that's the point.

Prabhupāda: Then he is . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: Ultimately that is the point.

Prabhupāda: Then it is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That means all the preaching was just like sowing seed in the sand.

Siddha-svarūpa: But is that not an ultimate . . . isn’t that the ultimate thing to work people into? Like I can . . .

Prabhupāda: Generally it should be simply chant; don’t instruct. Don’t instruct.

Siddha-svarūpa: I mean, I could push somebody . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like when we go for chanting, everyone comes dancing. That chance is open for everyone. Somehow or the other, let him chant, then one day he will come to clear understanding. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ (CC Antya 20.12), cleansing the heart. It takes some time. Those who are too dull, it takes little time. But give them chance: Chant, chant, chant, chant! Cleanse, cleanse, cleanse! But when it is properly cleansed, then he will be ready. Arjuna's decision was not to fight. Now he says, "Yes." That is required.

Siddha-svarūpa: I see that as being the goal, but I feel that I can’t . . .

Prabhupāda: For general mass of people don’t give so much for the instruction. Dull brain will not appreciate. Better somehow or other, four hours let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in ecstasy and dance. But that is being done. It doesn’t matter who is coming from outside. But when there is kīrtana, there is ecstasy; everybody dances. That opportunity should be given to everyone. No instruction.

Siddha-svarūpa: So what is the purpose of getting books to the masses of people?

Prabhupāda: Let them read.

Siddha-svarūpa: I don’t understand.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Siddha-svarūpa: I don’t understand the difference between reading the books and talking, lecturing from the books to the masses.

Prabhupāda: Talking means you can talk just like . . . the thing is that you should know that unless he comes to the point of agreement, the talking is not successful.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, but can I judge? So in other words, it is a matter of time. I can’t force someone. I . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot force. There is no question of force.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. I mean, I don’t want to.

Prabhupāda: You should know that unless he comes to the point of agreement, there is no success. But you have to give the chance. That is the duty of the preacher. You have to give him the chance—success or no success.

Siddha-svarūpa: Also advancement sometimes comes gradually. They gradually agree, little by little.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that advancement, if they join chanting, that advancement becomes quicker. That is required. If they join the saṅkīrtana, then that advancement becomes quicker. That is my point. So our main point is to let them advance. Better give this chance more than instruction.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is my point. I don’t say that you stop.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: But give them chance to join saṅkīrtana more.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Supposing you talk one hour or half an hour and give chance for chanting half an hour. No. Give them chance, chant one hour and talk fifteen minutes. This talking, they will not be able to accept it unless they are very serious. So let them hear talking, that "There is such nice talking." But get them more engaged in chanting. This is wanted. That will mean very quickly . . . (indistinct)

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do that. You will find in Caitanya-caritāmṛita, every day, every night, He was regularly chanting in Jagannātha Purī four hours . . . (indistinct) . . . but He was not talking to him. But when there was Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, Rāmānanda Rāya and big stalwart persons wanted to talk with Him, He was talking. The general mass of people, they will not understand. But by chanting, chanting, chanting, when the heart will be clean, they will understand. This is the point. So the gross, diseased man should be given more chance for chanting. That will be . That is my point. I don’t say stop instruction, but unless his heart is clean, instruction will not act.

Siddha-svarūpa: He won’t be able to give up any bad habits anyway.

Prabhupāda: Just like it is said, payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam (Nīti Śāstra). Bhujaṅgānāṁ, snake, his habit is to strike, poison teeth. And if you say, "My dear snake, you live with me. I shall give you daily milk and banana"—they like this combination. So "You don’t practice this biting unnecessarily, because that man you bite, and he dies. Don’t do this. You live with me. I shall give you milk and banana. There is no food problem." Then he will simply, by eating, he will increase his poison. And at the first instance he will bite. So if he remains a bhujaṅga, a serpent, then there is no use giving him this milk and bananas and instructing. And if you talk more, then he will be angry; perhaps he will bite you. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam (Nīti Śāstra).

This is the position. Everyone in this material world is a bhujaṅga, envious. Just like when you go—you have no fault—the dog will go "row-row-row-row-row-row." His habit is that. It is a fact, you are not going to his house, but unnecessarily screaming, disturbing, because he is a dog. Similarly, a snake. You have done nothing, but will bite you. This is the whole world, envious. Unnecessarily envious. The material world means I am unnecessarily envious of you, and you are unnecessarily envious of me. And therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for the non-envious—who is not envious. But the whole world is envious. It is very difficult job. By Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we are trying to make non-envious, because the whole world is envious. It is very difficult. Unnecessarily envious. This is the material world. Therefore Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ (SB 1.1.2). Those who have become completely non-envious, for them, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Those who are envious . . .

So it is very difficult to make an envious person non-envious. It will take certainly time, ceto-darpaṇa. This is the process: kīrtana. The whole world is envious, without any . . . man to man, man to animal, nation to nation. Just see. The whole politics is going on. America is envious of Russia, Russia is envious of America . . . China. They are trying to be United Nation. What is this nonsense? All of them are envious. What they will do? How they will unite? All rascals. Therefore we say, "All rascals." For the last twenty, twenty-five years they are trying to unite. But how they can be united? If you bring some dog and ask them, "Please don’t be envious," the dog will not bark. As soon as he sees another dog outside, he will "Row-row-row-row-row. Why you have come here? Why you have come here?" How you can rectify it? So you first of all make them not dog. That is saṅkīrtana movement: to make these dog not dog. Then he will appreciate. He is dog by nature; unnecessarily he will bark. There is no question of unity in United Nation of the dogs. The whole world is dogs, set of dogs barking. Three hundred times you will be enquired, "Oh, you have got your visa . . . (indistinct) . . .?" The same business, dog, "Row-row-row! Why you have come here?" . . . (indistinct) . . . what is this dog business? The immigration department means dog business.

So they are improving only dog business. Not to make them not dog, but increase the quality of dog. This is going on. We are the only person, we are trying to make the dog not dog. But that is very difficult. So if we simply follow the rules and regulation as is chalked out by the previous ācāryas, then it is possible. To manufacture our own rules and regulations, then it is very difficult. (break)

(indistinct section—loud kīrtana) There is no distinction. Just like when we chant and dance there is no more conception of "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am African." . . . (indistinct) . . . that is required. When one forgets the bodily concept of life, he is liberated. That means he is liberated for the time being. Then practicing, practicing, he is fully liberated. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ (CC Antya 20.12). As soon as the heart will be clean, then all the material tribulations will be finished. Our preaching is that if you are suffering from material tribulations, so we are trying to take somebody from this platform to this platform. From darkness to light. This is our position.

Siddha-svarūpa: Sympathy.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Siddha-svarūpa: Sympathy. You're speaking about sympathy.

Prabhupāda: Sympathy. A Vaiṣṇava is sympathetic. Just see that "these rascals are suffering always, being in darkness. Then let us try our best to deliver from darkness and bring him to light." So the simplest process is introduced by Caitanya Mahāprabhu: chant and dance. And it is practical. That Professor Judah has admitted, that "You are bringing the drug-addicted hippies to become servant of Kṛṣṇa. This is wanted." That he has admitted. And they are now appreciating. This is not my credit, but the process which is given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That is His credit. I have simply brought the process. It is not my manufacturing; it is authorized. It is given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, therefore it is authorized. My business is that I am giving the authorized process. That's all. I am not cheating, I am not bluffing. That is my credit. I don’t mix up; I don’t make any adulteration. I speak whatever is there in the Bhagavat-gītā, what Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said. Now it is your duty whether you accept it or not. But I cannot make any compromise. I cannot say, "Yes, you are right, I am right. Both of us are right." No. That I cannot say. I say that whatever Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said and Kṛṣṇa has said, that is right. Everything is wrong. People may agree—at least I am sorry; I don’t mind. That is not my business, to see that somebody is happy, somebody is sad.

So that is the duty of the spiritual master. You simply spread what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. Nothing more; nothing less. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He never says that "You give your own instructions." Never said. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa. Speak only what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. Then you become guru. If you make some addition, alteration, then you are not guru. All these people are making addition, alteration. The Dr. Radhakrishnan, this Gandhi, this . . . making additions. They cannot be guru. But people are misled. They think, "Oh, such a learned scholar, such a big political leader, he is saying like this." This is their misfortune. Gandhi said, "I don’t believe that there was any person in history named Kṛṣṇa, living." Kṛṣṇa is personally teaching Arjuna. It is accepted by all Indian people, the ācāryas especially, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And he became over and above them, over-intelligent. He said that "I don’t believe." So how many persons have been misled by one man because he was an important man? This is going on. In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says,

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

(BG 18.65)

And Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "No, no. It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see. He says, "Unto Me," a person, and this rascal says, "Not to the person." In this way the whole world has been misled.

Therefore my humble duty is to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, not by interpretation of rascals. That will not be beneficial. Present as it is, then it will be beneficial. If you benefited, then those who will hear, they will be. Don’t mislead. You are misled—kick out the rascal. Don’t try to mislead others by some concoction. That is very sinful. There is no question of interpretation on Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is clear. Interpretation required when you cannot understand. The thing is that I say, "Just give me a glass of water," so where is the question of interpretation? If somebody interprets, like Dr Radhakrishnan, "No, no. This glass of water should not be given to Prabhupāda but somebody else," what is this interpretation? So he is doing that. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto (BG 18.65), "Just always think of Me," and he says, "Not to Kṛṣṇa. Not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Where he got it? In this way they are misleading the whole world. As soon as you get a good position, you get some respect and you mislead. If in some crossing some unknown man comes to you: "Sir, I want to go to Honolulu. Which side shall I go?" and if I say instead of this side, which is real, I say, "Go this side," is that very good business? He does not know which side to go, Honolulu, and I mislead him just to the other side. The whole business is Kṛṣṇa is trying everyone to surrender to Him. He said, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto: "Just always think of Me," and this man misleads, "No, no. It is not of Kṛṣṇa. It is something else." Just see. And that is going on: "Oh! He is a scholar. He is a big man."

Just like an animal appreciates a lion. But suppose there is a lion and there is a small mouse—but both of them are animals. Comparatively, a mouse may be very insignificant and lion is very powerful, but after all, they are animals. So we see them like that. Either Dr. Radhakrishnan or Gandhi or this ordinary person, they are all animals. That is our vision. They are all animals. How I can say, "Because one is lion, therefore he is not animal"? Can I say? Only the rat or the mouse is animal and not the lion? That we cannot say. We shall say the animal, animal. Kṛṣṇa says that,

na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ

prapadyante narādhamāḥ

māyayāpahṛta-jñānā

āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ

(BG 7.15)

Big animal. The big animal is not a learned scholar; he is animal. A small animal may praise him, but no sane man will praise a big animal because he is big, powerful animal. No. That is not possible. He is animal, as good as the rat. That is described by Prabhodānanda Sarasvatī, vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate (Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5). When a man becomes a devotee, he thinks of vidhi-mahendra. Vidhi means Lord Brahmā, and mahendra means the king of heaven, Indra. Vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate. Kīṭa means small insect. In the devotee's vision, this big, big demigods, Lord Brahmā and the king of heaven, is as good as the insect. Vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate. Kīṭa means insect. How? Yat kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhavavatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ (Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5). It is by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, this position. Not others. They will flatter, "Ah, here is a big animal." But when one is pure devotee of Lord Caitanya, he will not flatter. Vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate, yat kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhavavatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ: "I offer my respects to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who has given me this eyes to see." (aside) Who gives to me this tape?

Siddha-svarūpa: Peter Borrows . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So our principle should be to speak strictly according to the Bhāgavatam. No change. Then you will be successful. And to understand this, one should be given chance: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa as much as you can. No argument. That's all. And preacher should behave himself exactly what he speaks. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. First of all behave yourself rightly and then become preacher. If you don’t behave yourself rightly, you have no power; don’t preach. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere. Āpani means personally; ācari: behaving according to the rules and regulation, teach yourself. (pause) Is George Harrison in Los Angeles?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. Haṁsadūta said he was. He said he’d asked Jayatīrtha to talk to him about . . . (indistinct) . . . I don’t know if he will be there. I don’t know how much longer he will be there.

Devotee (1): George Harrison just bought a house in Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: He said he just bought a house in Los Angeles, George Harrison.

Prabhupāda: Why he has purchased. Where the house he has bought?

Devotee (1): It's in Beverly Hills.

Paramahaṁsa: Very close to the temple

Prabhupāda: Not very close. (indistinct background comments by devotees) Hmm? (laughter)

Paramahaṁsa: I think Manasvī wants to, er . . .

Manasvī: So we had discussion about what should be the standard of restaurant. Everything works out nicely . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: How can I say that? I am not a restaurateur. That you settle up.

Manasvī: No—the standard of the spiritual restaurant, like that.

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained the standard, that we wanted to start the restaurant just to give people spiritual life. And they are habituated to eat so many rubbish things; gradually they will learn to eat nice things. That is sum and substance. And this nice things means prasādam. Again, same principle in a different way. We have got Caitanya Mahāprabhu's picture like that, guru picture, and everything is offered . . . (indistinct) . . . and people eating take.

Manasvī: The same standard as we keep in the temple should be kept there also?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, excuse me. The main question that we have amongst ourselves—because we are trying to discuss and work it out so that we can work jointly to please you at the restaurant—was we are concerned with at the present moment there are two boys who are working there who are not . . . they are not initiated devotees; they are not shaved up, they are not . . . they are following the regulative principles, but they are not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. And they have been helping in the restaurant, washing dishes and cutting fruit. And because we have been so short-handed they have been helping to cook, too, though we had decided that they should not cook. But I had the question as to whether it was all right for them, even though they are not initiated devotees and they are not chanting sixteen rounds, is it still admissible for them to do service in such a way to prepare food . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . if they have to be paid for washing dishes?

Devotee (2): One boy is only . . . the return that he takes from washing dishes is that he sleeps in the restaurant and gets his food there. He is . . .

Prabhupāda: Food of course must be given. You have got to pay something?

Devotee (2): Another boy is being paid twenty dollars a week, which is very, very small amount, because he works very hard.

Prabhupāda: If our men work, we can save this twenty dollars per week.

Devotee (2): But the question I had was that if . . . is it wrong to engage . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. From a business point of view, if our men work and we save twenty dollars per week, why should we not do it?

Siddha-svarūpa: But he's speaking from a point of view that the boy was . . . used to be a very loose hippie, and now he is changing, and he doesn’t want to . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. We cannot pay him. From business point of view we cannot pay him. Why shall I pay him? If I have got my own man, why shall I pay him? From business point of view.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. He is feeling that the boy will leave. He won’t have . . .

Prabhupāda: He will leave, you will save twenty dollars per week.

Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, but that boy will not have any association.

Prabhupāda: There are so many others. We are not meant for paying and correcting. That is not business mentality.

Śrutakīrti: He is staying because of the money. If he will leave without twenty dollars, then . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not good policy. We have no such money that all the hippies will come and we shall pay to correct him. That is not possible. But if he is rendering some service if required, proper service, if he takes some food, there is no harm. That we are offering him. But we cannot pay him. If we pay him and then he goes and purchases some drug, and therefore we are responsible for his drug addiction, then we become sinful. If you make some charity to a drunkard and he drinks, then you are responsible for his drinking sin. And from business point of view, if we can do my own work, why shall I pay to another? This is not a very good philosophy. Because he is fallen, so I shall pay him to kill you. There are so many fallen; then bring everyone and pay him and give him food? Why discrimination? So from business point of view it is not a very good proposition. What do you think? Is it a good proposition, to pay him?

Devotee (3): No. When I gave him the money originally, that was . . .

Śrutakīrti: He is talking about paying him this salary.

Devotee (3): When I gave the money originally in the restaurant, that was the understanding that all the devotees, that everyone who used to work there . . .

Prabhupāda: Voluntarily.

Devotee (3): . . . used to work for the money, would come to the temple. So therefore it became a viable business venture.

Prabhupāda: Let us save that money and give to the temple.

Manasvī: Originally the boy was working for free.

Devotee (3): He also lives at the restaurant and he helps to keep the restaurant in repair. But because he is not living at the temple he had other living expenses. But he follows the regulative principles, aside from even paying him the money.

Prabhupāda: He is getting the food in the restaurant.

Devotee (3): Or even aside from paying him the money, if he continued to work without the money, is it permissible for someone like that to cut fruits and vegetables and to make juices from the fruits and vegetables?

Prabhupāda: That is to be considered.

Manasvī: I was actually . . . that was the real question whether we should have people who are not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, who are not so much spiritually advanced . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I am thinking if the whole thing can be managed by our own men, why it should be done by outsiders?

Manasvī: We are considering we have many men here who could work there easily.

Devotee (4): This is the difficulty we have run into, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I've been in the restaurant since it opened, and getting the devotees to work there has been a difficult problem.

Devotee (3): That was because the restaurant was . . . in the first place it was stolen. So no one wanted to work there.

Prabhupāda: If that is a problem, then don’t take. Yes. Then don’t run.

Manasvī: We don’t think that should be the problem.

Prabhupāda: Then let him do as he is doing. If that is a problem, that devotees will not work . . .

Manasvī: No, but we are confident about that; that should not be the problem.

Siddha-svarūpa: The daily experience . . .

Devotee (4): Here again, I was in the restaurant when it was still owned by the temple. I was trying to run it. I had six cooks in there, in less than three weeks. And not one of them—all of them devotees from the temple—not one of them bothered to call me and tell me they were not coming in that day to cook. They just did not come back. Three of them are householders. Who is in charge there? Sudāmā Mahārāja was in charge.

Devotee (2): So Sudāmā Mahārāja was in māyā. He wasn’t even . . .

Devotee (4): That, well, that is past. The restaurant is what we are discussing now.

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is past is past.

Devotee (4): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now the management has to be taken by us. If our men are not willing to work, then where should we go?

Devotee: There are many persons who want to go and work.

Prabhupāda: So this is one point. And another point is if they are working here, they are cooking food and everything . . . (indistinct) . . . why they will not do there? In the beginning they might have not known, because you made a separate identity, the restaurant. So therefore they might have . . . (indistinct) . . . that is another thing. Because the devotees are giving free service in the temple, it does not mean they will go to give service in another place where the income is going to somebody else. You cannot expect like that.

Devotee (4): But this is not . . . what I am saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that this was before any of this happened. The temple owned the restaurant; it was being run by the temple. I was just in the restaurant managing it. It was still owned and run by the temple. But I have discovered in the few years that I have been around the movement that an awful lot of the younger people are really not too willing to work. They want a place to sleep and a place to eat, but to work for it is something else again. And around the temple now do we have a list and the number of people whom we are talking about who are willing to work in this restaurant? Because I have been by the temple a lot recently since Śrīla Prabhupāda has been here, and prior to that not so much, unfortunately.

Prabhupāda: That is expected. If after taking, our men, they do not work, there will be . . . (indistinct) . . . first of all be assured that our men will work; then do it.

Devotee (4): But Manasvī and Śrutakīrti were talking this morning possibly they could do the cooking. And as I suggested to them that the job they have running this temple, it is really enough for them. They couldn’t possibly put in the hours that it takes to prepare the food.

Manasvī: Up to now I have been doing it alone, while Śrutakīrti was not here. If I am going to share with him . . .

Śrutakīrti: I heard Paramahaṁsa is going to be in the temple now.

Devotee (4): That is very good. So then we have you two who would be willing to work . . .

Prabhupāda: So cooperate. Last two we had bad experience, that does not mean in future also we will have. Now you agree amongst yourselves and do it nicely. Then everything . . . (indistinct) . . . is there.

Devotee: Shouldn’t it be . . . before . . .

Prabhupāda: They are afraid that suppose the business we commence, and later on the devotees do not do it, then the whole thing will be spoilt. They are right in that point. So be sure that your men will cooperate, and then jointly do it.

Devotee (2): I was suggesting to them that they go through a trial period where they come in and they work along with us, but we run it the same way that we have been running it. And if it begins to seem that they are working nicely and we are cooperating nicely and the devotees are working nicely, then gradually we can phase the other people out in such a way so that it is not . . .

Prabhupāda: This is not . . . (indistinct)

Manasvī: This morning I have told him that whatever we are doing we should continue now, and then we make gradual changes.

Devotee (2): Because, Prabhupāda, I was concerned that people who have been working there . . .

Prabhupāda: They are doing nice.

Devotee (2): . . . they are doing nicely, and they are making some progress. And I was afraid . . .

Prabhupāda: What if progress is checked?

Devotee (2): Yes. If I tell them to leave, and they become hurt . . .

Prabhupāda: You want to be assured that this progress is not stopped. That is good.

Manasvī: I had agreed in the morning with him that whatever is going on will continue.

Prabhupāda: So the thing is actually if our men work nicely, then there is no question of . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: One thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that . . . (break) (end)