760706 - Conversation B - Washington D.C.

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760706R2-WASHINGTON DC - July 06, 1976 - 52:07 Minutes

(Conversation With Scientists)

(in car)

Rūpānuga: . . . n-a-m.

Prabhupāda: n-a-m, nam.

Prabhupāda: j-ñ-a.

Rūpānuga: Is it hyphenated? Sa, hyphen?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have given the spelling. Or Pradyumna can give it to you.

Rūpānuga: That is very artistic also, very nice, literate . . . literature, very nice.

Prabhupāda: And in bracket you can give "In Scientific Knowledge."

Rūpānuga: "In Scientific Knowledge." In English? "In Scientific Knowledge."

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Make that attempt. Then they will know, "Yes, Americans." So these pictures are available to be seen?

Yadubara: I think today they will, by this evening, they will . . .

Prabhupāda: How many?

Yadubara: I took about . . . well, one boy is doing it for free of charge. He's producing ten of them just to get idea. If we want more, we can get more. I took about twenty-five.

Prabhupāda: All detailed?

Yadubara: Some detail, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. (aside) Yes, you can close that. (door closes) One set to Gargamuni and one set to Saurabha and one set for me. Three sets. And if you like, you can keep one set for you. The negative will be with you. What is the height altogether?

Yadubara: Actually, I don't know. I didn't get that. I can get that information also.

Prabhupāda: So, guessing?

Yadubara: Oh, I don't know, two hundred and fifty feet? Something like that. Three hundred?

Rūpānuga: That's too big, three hundred. The Washington monument is five hundred fifty feet.

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right.

Yadubara: Maybe two hundred.

Rūpānuga: Maybe a hundred seventy-five. We can check reference book easily. We'll find out today.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we want to make a chart. Now from these gross elements, the five gross elements, we want to extend to . . .

Prabhupāda: Earth, water, air, fire.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: From there we want to include the, let's say this table, ninety-two . . . what scientists call elements, this gold, silver, copper, all these elements.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is within earth.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we are thinking that not only earth, but the water, air.

Prabhupāda: In the earth, there is already water, air, ether, fire, everything.

Rūpānuga: From previous.

Prabhupāda: Earth is the reservoir of all elements. As you go from earth to water, one is minus. From water, you go to fire, one is again minus. In this way, when you go up, ether, there is only one. And earth contains all the five.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: All the five gross elements.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So actually we can use just from earth all these ninety-two elements, like silver, gold and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is in the earth. So many varieties of mixture.

Rūpānuga: Now is there an atom for each? Is there a copper atom?

Prabhupāda: That we . . . we do not take care of atoms; we gross estimate. Must be atomic differences. Just like gold and, what is called?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Gold and the mercury?

Prabhupāda: Mercury, little atomic difference. And it is suggested that tin, copper and mercury, proportionately mixed, it will become gold.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once you told me that in Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you can do that experiment. Then our poverty will be . . . (laughter) It is fact. There are many yogīs, they prepare gold by drinking mercury. They drink mercury, overnight, next morning they pass urine and dip copper coins in it. And then after some time the copper coins put into the fire, it becomes gold.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's alchemist.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they do that. But it is a fact that copper and tin and mercury proportionately mixed will produce gold.

yathā kāñcanatāṁ yāti

kāṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ

tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena

dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām

(Hari-bhakti-vilāsa 2.12)

This example is given by Sanātana Gosvāmī. As kaṁsya . . . kaṁsya is mixture of copper and tin, bell metal. When it is properly treated with mercury, it becomes gold. Similarly, a human being properly treated by initiation, he becomes a brahmin. This example has been given by Sanātana Gosvāmī. Tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām. Nṛṇām, he says: "Of all human beings." He doesn't say a particular class or particular country. Nṛṇām, the word uses. Śuddhyanti prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ. Everyone can be purified by the initiation process, by expert spiritual master. That is accepted in the śāstra.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: These elements, that science calls elements, gold and mercury, were these several other elements in the Vedic scriptures? Little information how they separate it, the technique they use . . .

Prabhupāda: Metal? Oh, that, that is not given. But they, all these metals, they are different forms of earth. You find in ores.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are all impure.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, you have to purify, but they are in the group of earth. We have to purify. Gold is also purified. It is taken from the mine, it is not pure gold. You have to treat it, then pure gold comes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that treatment must involve a lot of process.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but by treating you can get, that's all. The metallurgists, they know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So actually the Vedas must have known these techniques, because otherwise they cannot get this gold so easily.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. No, there are gold mountains also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mount Sumeru?

Prabhupāda: There are gold mountains, silver mountains, iron mountains, copper road—everything is there. What is that?

Devotee (1): This is a new picture of Mars, just came in the Washington Post today. Here is what the scientists say the mountains are on Mars. Big crater they are talking about. This is a recent photo.

Prabhupāda: So? What do they say?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Says it's a Grand Canyon. Just like in Arizona there's a canyon called Grand Canyon.

Prabhupāda: So might be from Arizona? (laughter) "Like Arizona," that means Arizona.

Rūpānuga: Just like Arizona. Probably the same rocks you find in Arizona.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called Martian Grand Canyon, and an ocean meandering gorge ten times the size of Arizona's Grand Canyon.

Prabhupāda: That we can photograph it and make ten times, hundred times. Their business is in Arizona.

Rūpānuga: I think so.

Prabhupāda: And this is only propaganda.

Rūpānuga: I agree. I think it was all like a movie set.

Prabhupāda: That's all. They are not going. Arizona is there, only asset. Why they are taking Arizona? That means they are in Arizona. Just like one man was stealing from the room, and there were some sounds, and the master of the house said: "Who is there? What is that sound?" The man said: "No, I am not stealing. No, no, I am not stealing." It is like that. (laughter)

Rūpānuga: Throughout this article they make comparisons with earth, you know, approximations.

Prabhupāda: And there is no man. Just see the foolishness. The same logic, "No, no, I am not stealing." Who asked you that you are stealing? He asked for the sound, but he disclosed. It is like that. Why they are bringing Arizona?

Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you catch them red-handed.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, that I can do. It is like that. Who asked them to speak of Arizona? You are speaking of Arizona. "No, no, I am not stealing." (laughter) It is like that. They could have mentioned other places.

Rūpānuga: Arizona is convenient.

Prabhupāda: That means they are working in Arizona. The mind is there. Arizona-minded because they are working in Arizona, so they are disclosing mind.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are claiming that this photograph was taken two hundred million miles away from the earth.

Prabhupāda: That, they can say anything, but they are doing everything in Arizona.

Vipina: What is the point then, Prabhupāda? Just to take money and use it some other way?

Prabhupāda: No, no, just to cheat people that they are very big scientists, give them fat salary. That's all. But what people will benefit by this?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to study whether there is life there or not.

Prabhupāda: There is life. You do not know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are not sure yet.

Prabhupāda: There is life everywhere. We can say from the śāstra. There cannot be any place vacant. It is not possible. Must be life there. All planets are vacant, simply this planet is congested, overpopulation . . . what is this nonsense? What is the difference between this planet and other planets, chemically or physiologically?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, there are differences.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Differences, that may be little, the difference between cat's body, dog's body, man's body, little difference must be there. But the elements are the same. At least, I'll not believe. No, I am not blind, but in the śāstra, every planet is congested. That is in the Bhāgavatam.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, actually we also have some information even in science that there must be life there in other planets.

Prabhupāda: I . . . he was of my age, perhaps you know his name, Dr. Shah? Menga Shah. So he was my friend in Allahabad. So he said, "No, there is life." He said, Dr. Menga . . . there is no question of disbelieving, he said, and he is also big, big scientist. Dr. Menga Shah is very known scientist. Yes. Dr. Menga Shah, Dr. Nilratan Dhar . . . (indistinct) . . . they were all my customers.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's in U.P.?

Prabhupāda: U.P., Allahabad. The Jawaharlal Nehru, he was very big, big customer.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There are in fact some reports in the last few years that there is some bacteria that can survive in the medium of ammonia—ammonia is alkaline solution. Normally life survives in . . .

Prabhupāda: Life survives in fire, water. Fire, even. That is our information.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also they proved that there are certain bacteria that can survive in about a 170 degrees. High temperature.

Prabhupāda: Why bacteria? Human beings. Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa is speaking the sun-god? Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). Simply the sun-god is alone living?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: Then the sun planet there are living entities. Their body is made of fire, that's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it's better to say that when science says . . . scientists say there are no lifes in other planets, we can conclude that the senses or the forms that we have, or the elements that we have different . . .

Prabhupāda: They are different. Just like in the water we look, superficially we don't see any living being. But inside you go, there are many millions of living entities. They took photograph. What is the meaning of photograph from such a distance? If you take photograph of the sea, what you will find? It is vacant. So the rascals are taking photograph, and I have to believe it. Photograph, what is the meaning of photograph? There is no meaning. Take the photograph of the sea, if I know what is there. Then go deep into the water, you'll find millions and trillions.

Sadāpūta: There are also living beings living in the air that we can't see?

Prabhupāda: You can't see so many things. What is the value of your eyes? Why do you believe so much your eyes? You cannot see even your eyelids, so close. Still, you are blind. When there is some particle, you cannot see. You have to struggle how to get out this particle. If you see, then take it. So what is the value of your eyes? Why do you believe so much? Adhyakṣi. They are called adhyakṣi, only believe in direct perception.

Hari-śauri: (noise of door opening) It's Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Let him come. So?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Getting . . . French visa was done, and tomorrow I pick up your passport and my passport for Iran visa. Then just one more, Italy, remaining.

Prabhupāda: Why do they speak about seeing? What is the value of your seeing? I have seen the Atlantic Ocean, that means I have seen everything? This is ludicrous.

Rūpānuga: They may simply speculate from a distance, that "Here is the surface," like here . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all. Real business is speculation.

Rūpānuga: Here it says, this is some great, here . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is "I am not stealing."

Rūpānuga: Twelve hundred miles above the surface. Now they want to speculate what is there.

Prabhupāda: I mean, ludicrous. Who asked him that who is stealing? But he said: "I am not stealing."

Rūpānuga: That is perfect. It's perfect, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Why he brings Arizona? Who asked him? That means that their business in Arizona.

Rūpānuga: They have exposed themselves.

Prabhupāda: Rascals, how they are cheating people.

Rūpānuga: Such a big hoax. They have spent billions of dollars for such a hoax.

Prabhupāda: Now you consider whether I am right or wrong. The moon planet is also Arizona. (laughs) All their business asset is there.

Rūpānuga: So one of the things we want to do is expose this cheating. Should we expose this kind of thing directly like this, or should we indirectly deal with it?

Prabhupāda: No, you do scientifically. I give you the hint. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we say that, then they will be mad at the . . .

Prabhupāda: Give psychology. Say: "Who asked him about Arizona? Why he is speaking Arizona?" That means they are in Arizona.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it all right to include that, these ninety-two chemical elements, as finer, er, finer form of earth?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mixture of so many things. But actually, that is the fact. Just like iron, gold, everything you find, just like earth. But you have to purify.

Rūpānuga: So earth is a mixture of all these different elements?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we can call this . . .

Prabhupāda: Different quality of earth.

Rūpānuga: Like subcategory.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, in water also, all these, most of these earth materials are there, because it dissolves in water. Water is so many salts and elements there, in a dissolved form.

Prabhupāda: That I told you, that in the earth all other five elements are there.

Rūpānuga: So water precedes earth in the creation. Water comes first.

Prabhupāda: No, ether.

Rūpānuga: I mean water comes before earth. Earth is last, and water is just before. So that we find earth in water.

Prabhupāda: Water it dries up, gives earth.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's saying you can find earth in water.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: That's the point you made.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That I am stating, that when water dries up, we find deposit of earth.

Rūpānuga: Yes, because it precedes, and earth is being created from water, so you'll find earth in water originally.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But still water is one element less than earth.

Prabhupāda: No, earth is full of all elements.

Hari-śauri: What he is saying is back to front, then. If earth has all the elements in it, then the other one says you go successively back, should have one less. So why is it water has earth in it when earth is the last one to be produced?

Prabhupāda: Not visible.

Rūpānuga: Oh, it's not manifest

Prabhupāda: Yes, not manifest.

Rūpānuga: So earth is in a nonmanifest state in the water, and when you analyze water sometimes you can analyze and produce little particles of earth. Is that right?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Everything is there. Not prominent, that's all.

Rūpānuga: So the main characteristic, then, is the water that is prominent.

Prabhupāda: Just like the skin, it is not . . . you cannot find water, but there is water.

Rūpānuga: So earth is prominent.

Prabhupāda: Like that. Just like you cut the skin, the blood will come. What is the blood? That is water.

Sadāpūta: That is mineral water. It has minerals in it.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but it is water.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, the composition of that particular element is predominant. When we say water, say there are some minerals, but the mineral percentage-wise is very less, but the percentage of water is more.

Rūpānuga: There is no pure water. Can there be pure water, completely pure water? If we analyze, we will find pure water?

Prabhupāda: Nothing can be pure.

Rūpānuga: Not in this material world. They say that they distill it, but just like they say fire is pure, but fire is not pure. There are living entities living in the fire. They have gross . . . grossly defined . . .

Prabhupāda: The sterilization has no meaning. The living entity will stay. Otherwise, how it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: nainaṁ pāvakaḥ dahati (BG 2.23). Find out.

Sadāpūta: (aside) Is that in the Gītā?

Hari-śauri: You were saying yesterday that in all states of matter there is always some living condition to be found. Even in a body that is supposed to be dead, there is life coming from it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, when the body dies, we say that it decomposes, actually that decomposition is done by small microbes. These microbes in this big body . . .

Prabhupāda: They become prominent, that's all. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Light.

Prabhupāda: Light. Fire means heat and light.

Sadāpūta: What is magnetism?

Prabhupāda: Magnetism also another action of the fire. We used to do that: rubbing, rubbing, rubbing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Electricity.

Rūpānuga: Friction.

Prabhupāda: And it would, . . . get one fine paper, you'll get.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hairs will stand on end.

Prabhupāda: So magnetism means another action of the fire.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That makes sense. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We talk sometimes things very complicated, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but Prabhupāda explains it very simply. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Because I am not scientist. (laughter) Just like I captured immediately, common sense.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (aside) So everything clear then? Oh. In one of the articles in Back to Godhead, I think Dharmādhyakṣa, he uses different words for these five elements. So we are going to use these elements in our book also, so we wonder whether . . . he says for fire, "Radiant energy" instead of fire. I think it may sound little more . . .

Rūpānuga: They think this is so simplistic, you know, mythological-type breakdown, oversimplification. So he used different words. He used . . . fire he said: "Radiant energy," water he said "liquidity." What did he say for earth? "Solid matter," he said for earth, and air, "gas." And what did he say for ether? "Space." So we thought . . . we were wondering if these were acceptable terms to use.

Prabhupāda: That you can do.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's clear, then. Now, I, actually I discussed this point last time, but still I want to make it clear. Now in the difference between life and matter again . . .

Prabhupāda: Life and matter, is, we already explained very clearly. There is no symptom of matter in life. Everything is detailed. Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi (BG 2.23). Negative way. "It is not this."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But to feel it, to see it . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot bring it to any material platform. Everything is denied.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now to make a simile or comparison, we found from our experience in science that matter itself is rather very simple. It is composed of simple patterns and simple forms and structures. But now when this matter is touched by life, or matter in association with life is actually very complex in terms of molecules. It comes to big molecules, and the molecules not only big. It's very complex, highly complicated.

Prabhupāda: You can understand, just the one grain of poison, potassium cyanide. You touch on the tongue, immediately whole body becomes poisoned. How the molecules just spread immediately?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does it react? Potassium cyanide? It blocks the oxygen path? That's what science says?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the poison action immediately spreads all over the body.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise, why is it happening like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) This is also material thing. Now how much powerful is spirit soul, you can just imagine. If one grain of matter has got so much potency, how much potency has got the spirit?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But then somebody may ask that why that cyanide . . . cyanide is just material. But now in the living body the spirit is there, but how the spirit is affected by . . .

Prabhupāda: Spirit is unable to live. The condition changes. Poison means the condition changes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So cyanide is more powerful than the spirit.

Prabhupāda: No. Powerful . . . this is different element. Powerful it is, certainly, because it is moving the whole thing. Powerful, that particular body is destroyed. But the spirit soul, there are so many—otherwise how the germs are coming? It is not powerful.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When cyanide is introduced, the body becomes unsuitable.

Prabhupāda: For a particular soul.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now my point, coming to this complex form, now matter, it is understood easily in terms of science, when matter is associated with life, then comparing this . . .

Prabhupāda: Then the matter works. Otherwise it has no working capacity. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). The material world is working on account of presence of the spirit soul.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And from here, from this experience, we are extending that the spiritual world is . . . spirit itself is . . .

Prabhupāda: It's different from material world.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Complex?

Prabhupāda: It has nothing to do with this material world.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this valid to conclude that the spirit, spiritual world, or spirit life, is very complex?

Prabhupāda: Not complex, it is simple spirit. In the material world it is complex. In the spiritual world, it is simple.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (aside) Is it all right? Is it understood?

Sadāpūta: Spirit means completely different from matter.

Rūpānuga: The whole idea is that the matter, where it's not touched by spirit, it's not very complicated.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very simple.

Rūpānuga: When there's life, then you have such a complication like a body. The human body is very complicated because life is there. Without life . . .

Prabhupāda: No, just like a machine, it can be complicated. But as soon as you put the plug, gada-gada-gada-gada comes. But the electricity is not complicated, the machine is complicated.

Rūpānuga: So it doesn't work unless there is some . . .

Prabhupāda: Without electricity it does not work. But the machine is complicated, not the electricity.

Rūpānuga: One thing is that the machine, in this example, gets complicated or it becomes . . .

Prabhupāda: Complicated means it is made in different parts with matter, that's all. But it cannot work without the electric power.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the conclusion is that matter, when touched by life or spirit, actually it becomes complicated.

Prabhupāda: Not complicated; it is already complicated. It works.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, matter itself is not complicated. Matter itself is not complicated.

Prabhupāda: Yes, complicated. When they are combined together.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even if it is complicated, this matter itself touched by life is more complicated.

Prabhupāda: No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Just like electricity. Electricity, when it is connected with the machine, it works. The machine is complicated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it could be said that the machine is actually independent of the electricity.

Prabhupāda: No, how it is independent? Without electricity it has no value.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has no value, but it's still existing.

Prabhupāda: Existing, that is valuable?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But machine is touched by a person. So that makes a . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is an example, that here is electricity, power, and here is machine. The machine is complicated. The electricity is not complicated.

Hari-śauri: But if there's no electricity, then there's no need for a complicated machine. The machine can . . .

Prabhupāda: You can see it is complicated. Even a typewriter machine, it is complicated.

Hari-śauri: Then it's only complicated because it needs to be so so that it can take the energy for running it.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Without electric, without energy, it cannot work. But the thing itself is complicated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can I ask one question? If life is based on the desire of the living entity, and as you were mentioning that the material energy forms so many complex combinations, the material body is so complex, does that mean that the living entity is very much entangled?

Prabhupāda: If you analyze your body, there are so many complications. But without life it is all dead matter.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that is why we are concluding that now matter, when it is associated with life, it is very complex.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Without matter, it is complex.

Rūpānuga: Without life.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Without life it's more complex, matter?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the same. The matter is the same.

Sadāpūta: The same body. Same both ways.

Rūpānuga: Well in a sense, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: There is no sense; try to understand. The body is complicated. But in spite of all this, it is useless unless there is life.

Rūpānuga: All right, so then in an embryo stage . . .

Prabhupāda: Any stage, it is, the whole thing is complicated.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But you are saying that the soul is actually by nature very simple.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At least compared to the material world.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The soul is not complicated.

Sadāpūta: I believe what Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu is saying is that matter, each element studied by itself, has a simple structure, but when the body is formed with the soul, then it becomes apparently more complex; the chemical reactions become more complex.

Rūpānuga: As a matter of growth even. Because life is present, then this small pea grows.

Prabhupāda: That means that soul is not complicated.

Rūpānuga: No, not the soul. But that the presence of the soul causes growth.

Prabhupāda: Just like the Dictaphone. The Dictaphone is complicated, but my finger is not complicated. Finger is simple. I simply push, and it works.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So I'm comparing two matters in two different states. Now matter as such and the matter with life. Now taking that life is simple, now still there is a basic difference between matter not touched by life and this matter touched by life. And matter which is not touched by life is still simpler than this matter which is touched by life. Now taking that life is simple . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you are speaking like that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's what we see in science.

Prabhupāda: This machine is the same without electric or no electric. But with electric it works, and without electric it is useless.

Hari-śauri: But isn't a complicated body . . .

Prabhupāda: It is complicated already. When it is touched with electric power it works. And when it is not touched with electricity . . . the electricity is not complicated; this thing itself is complicated.

Hari-śauri: But isn't the complexity of the body due to trying to accommodate the desires of the spirit soul? Such a complicated body is there because the spirit soul desires to do something. So the complexity is a product of the desire.

Prabhupāda: Just like you want to do something, different machine, but the power is the same. You want to . . . we use a Dictaphone or a typewriter, you want to use a, so many, so many . . . the complication is of the matter, but the electricity is the same, either this machine or that machine.

Rūpānuga: In mathematics . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't bring mathematics. Try to understand. You have got different machine for different purposes. But without electricity they are useless.

Hari-śauri: So the cause is very simple, but the effect is complicated.

Prabhupāda: Not effect. It has nothing to do with. If you want to work for a certain purpose, you require such and such machine. So different purposes, different machines. But the power is the same. It is a simple thing. Why don't you understand? You push the electric power for this heater and same electric for this cooler. This is the difference of the machine. The power is the same, either it is acting as cooler or heater. The refrigerator is used, the same electric power. And the heater is used, same electric power. It is a question of difference of the machine. Electricity is the same. The matter is complicated. Spirit is not complicated.

Rūpānuga: Just like in a body that is growing and getting bigger, that's because the spirit soul is present, and there's action going on because the spirit soul is there. So in that sense a body may become bigger and more complex because the spirit soul is present in that body. That is what we were trying to say, that this matter can become even more complex, if we can use that word, or variegated, because the presence of the spirit soul is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take help of the spirit soul to work the matter. Otherwise matter is dead.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, matter becomes more complicated when it is in association with life. That is actually what we want to say.

Sadāpūta: We were speaking not of the spirit soul; we're saying: "Designed by God." That's the kind of life we were referring to.

Hari-śauri: Just like the material energy in its unmanifested state, when it's pradhāna, there's no living entity present. But when the living entity is put into the material energy by God, then the whole complex system of workings in the material world come into being.

Rūpānuga: What we're trying to show is that such complex activity cannot go on without the presence of life. And with life there, spirit soul, that the movements are going to go in this material world. That's our point. (aside) Isn't that the point?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. One thing also, in the spiritual world, it is full of variegatedness.

Prabhupāda: That is spiritual variety.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Spiritual variety.

Prabhupāda: There is no difference.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That doesn't mean that it is complex, Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no complexity.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another point, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that matter as it is, it does not have any specific form, or pattern, as compared with matter associated with life. When matter is associated with life it has specific groups of forms meant for a definite purpose and function. Now this is lacking when matter is left as it is. For example . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, matter is utilized for the purpose of spirit soul. Otherwise matter has no independent existence. The whole thing is matter, but it is formed according to the desire of the spirit.

Hari-śauri: So if matter is inferior to the spirit soul, then isn't it correct to say that the spirit soul is more complex or sophisticated than matter? If matter is inferior?

Prabhupāda: Spirit soul is living. Naturally he has got desires. That is not complexity. That is a symptom of life.

Rūpānuga: Matter has no desire.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So matter seems, we say, more complex, but still is inferior.

Prabhupāda: It is made complex to serve some purpose.

Rūpānuga: It keeps the living entity forgetful of Kṛṣṇa. It makes māyā for the living entity; he forgets Kṛṣṇa with all the complexities.

Prabhupāda: Physically, everything is being done by heat and light. So fire is heat and light. The fire is not complex—heat and light—but with heat and light everything is going on. You have physical subject matter of studies, heat and light?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because everything is being conducted by heat and light.

Hari-śauri: So the living entity's desire has become very complex due to his association with material nature?

Prabhupāda: He does not . . . he desires, and the matter helps. In the material world.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That desire is simple?

Prabhupāda: Desire is simple, that is his . . . otherwise, without desire, how he is living? You make minus desire, then how it is living? That is only symptom of his living.

Rūpānuga: You have said on your original record that the living entity is trying to enjoy material nature but is becoming more and more entangled in her complexities.

Prabhupāda: He is becoming entangled in the machine. Because he has forgotten his spiritual identity, he thinks, "With this machine I can find happiness." That is going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a sense, it is also true that in the material world, especially material scientists, they make things more complicated.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The contamination of material desires. But when one develops spiritual desire, then he becomes more simple.

Prabhupāda: karma-bandhan. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, yajñārthāt karmaṇaḥ anyatra karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9), to become entangled.

Rūpānuga: So for a karmī, if you ask what is the purpose of life, it is a very complicated question. For a devotee, it is a very simple question with a simple answer. It is very complicated. They will answer, "Oh, this is very difficult. We cannot discuss this in this class, this is too complex." That is the answer we got all our lives until we came to you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Then you answered very simply—Kṛṣṇa.

(devotee offer obeisances, door opens)

Rūpānuga: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Thank you for exposing these workings . . . (indistinct) (end)