760420 - Conversation - Melbourne

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760420R1-MELBOURNE - April 20, 1976 - 69:06 Minutes

(Conversation & TV Interview with Mike Barron)

Prabhupāda: But still, he did it. Arjuna, in the beginning, thought that he should not kill. Come on.

Devotee (1): He's ready downstairs.

Prabhupāda: Huh? (break) . . . can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air . . . air . . . air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi . . . just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air, it is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist? Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second . . . so why do you say: "Now, now the breathing is stopped"? Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hmm?

Gurukṛpā: They have no answer.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The cells have died.

Prabhupāda: Seller?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Tiny cells in the body have died.

Prabhupāda: Then don't say that, "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hmm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things.

Gurukṛpā: They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood.

Prabhupāda: Nothing. Artificial blood . . . superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements—air, water. Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future . . . in inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare a ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say: "In future I shall do it"?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of these creature don't even have hearts.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Some of the insects don't even have hearts.

Prabhupāda: And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop, you cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mean to say . . .

Prabhupāda: I have seen very minute, walking very . . . exactly like a big . . .

Gurukṛpā: In Vṛndāvana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies.

Prabhupāda: You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your version. I say that when he is doing everything like a human being, he has got everything. It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that . . . just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). When Īśvara is in everyone's heart, how you can . . . hṛd-deśe. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this is speaking of the material heart.

Prabhupāda: Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe, specifically said: "Within the heart." The . . . even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says hṛd-deśe?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe. Every living entity.

Prabhupāda: Eh? And you say there is no . . . you are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body?

Prabhupāda: Then . . . heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution.

Hari-śauri: In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad it describes how they're sitting side by side.

Prabhupāda: The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just challenged the whole field of biology also.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the . . . I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no . . . and what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, hṛd-deśe 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra, machine. So as machine means . . . moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place . . . everything is there, machine.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart.

Prabhupāda: Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part. What is that? Spi . . .? Begins the word, the machine, the record?

Devotee (2): Spirograph.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine . . .

Devotee (2): Cardiograph.

Prabhupāda: Cardiograph, like that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cardiograph.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sensation.

Prabhupāda: No, no, the machine is called some special name.

Hari-śauri: The same idea as cardiograph.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Spectograph?

Prabhupāda: Spectograph, yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Has to do with light?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life, they have no such circulatory system of pumping blood or even oxygen.

Prabhupāda: Why not?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, that's the contention at present.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. But we can take that . . .

Gurukṛpā: Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Gurukṛpā: You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what is the wrong there?

Gurukṛpā: Then there's three hearts?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living entity enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut, a living entity can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hmm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire, 'Let the rooms be like this'. Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother mix, it creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now according to the desire of the living being he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing—earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body—a different body for the man, a different body for the animal . . . (guest enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you. A little crooked. (laughter) Thank you.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here in Melbourne.

Prabhupāda: You have seen this news?

Mike Barron: Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mike Barron: Just along those lines.

Gurukṛpā: What do you think of that article?

Mike Barron: A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much.

Prabhupāda: You liked?

Mike Barron: No.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Mike Barron: Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it.

Prabhupāda: Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence . . .

Devotee (3): Like to sit there?

Prabhupāda: . . . that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh?

Mike Barron: No.

Prabhupāda: Then how do you say it is joking?

Mike Barron: Er, no, I . . . the actual context.

Prabhupāda: The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference?

Mike Barron: I cannot argue against that.

Prabhupāda: That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding . . . that is . . . in Sanskrit word it is said, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that, "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says: "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct?

Mike Barron: No. Does Kṛṣṇa consciousness make you aware of this, though?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Mike Barron: How long . . . it's hard to say. How long does it take, though . . .

Prabhupāda: It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important, the pilot is important.

Mike Barron: The same with the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say: "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is . . . you can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "hans! phans!" just like bellows. That is not possible.

Mike Barron: Can you become aware of this without Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Can you, without . . .

Prabhupāda: No. That awareness means Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing.

Mike Barron: So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Kṛṣṇa movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it.

Prabhupāda: The . . . our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, and if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position, that is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body, he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog?

Mike Barron: None.

Prabhupāda: That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system to understand what is that living force without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education?

Mike Barron: What do you call that force?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Mike Barron: What do you call the force?

Prabhupāda: That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing: the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding.

Mike Barron: Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again? Is it . . .

Prabhupāda: I have already explained, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that, "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education.

Mike Barron: And how long will . . . you'll continue this until . . .

Prabhupāda: Well . . .

Mike Barron: . . . until you die.

Prabhupāda: The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to . . . we have got so many books, eighty-four books, writing on this science. (aside) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circles. (break) . . . written not jokingly. It is a great science.

Mike Barron: Where do you . . . you might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though?

Prabhupāda: The Vedas, Vedic literature.

Mike Barron: What goes into this?

Prabhupāda: Vedas. Vedic literature: Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg, Atharva, Upaniṣad, then Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā, so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge.

Devotee (3): If we could . . . if we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike?

Mike Barron: Hmm.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I'll do it.

Prabhupāda: How people are advanced? They should take very seriously.

Devotee (3): So he can sit and face that way.

Gurukṛpā: Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go.

Mike Barron: Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we . . . you know, what people consider to be the false guru. Is that all right with you?

Prabhupāda: Yes, any . . . guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher, he is cheater.

Mike Barron: And there are some around.

Prabhupāda: Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, A-B-C-D. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge.

Mike Barron: So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge?

Prabhupāda: That is . . . that you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant . . . this is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed, "What is that living condition?" That is yoga, or meditation, to find out what is the real . . . analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system: to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system.

Cameraman: Somebody move up.

Mike Barron: Yes. (aside to cameraman) Do you have a two-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards?

Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep out my front as much as you can. Don't . . . (talks about filming) Okay, Mike. Go three from now.

Mike Barron: Can you tell us a little bit about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, what it does mean?

Prabhupāda: Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Kṛṣṇa is the most important thing.

Mike Barron: Are you happy with the way the Kṛṣṇa movement is progressing throughout the world, and particularly throughout Australia?

Prabhupāda: Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and . . . they are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient.

Mike Barron: What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome?

Prabhupāda: Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education.

Mike Barron: But some people are confused by the number of false gurus.

Prabhupāda: So why you bring guru? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do?

Mike Barron: But there are people . . .

Prabhupāda: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want.

Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat?

Prabhupāda: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not?

Mike Barron: I think I know.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Mike Barron: I think I know.

Prabhupāda: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru. Tell me. What is the aim of life?

Mike Barron: To be happy in myself.

Prabhupāda: That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said, "Dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all.

Mike Barron: Well, how do I find out?

Prabhupāda: No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness?

Mike Barron: Perhaps not. How do I find out that?

Prabhupāda: Find out . . . but then why you are asking about guru? You do not know what is happiness.

Mike Barron: Can you tell me?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die, you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man; you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. This is unhappiness.

Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That is intelligence that, "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex; I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality?

Mike Barron: And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die, I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness.

Mike Barron: Thank you.

Gurukṛpā: Jaya Prabhupāda.

Mike Barron: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Devotee (3): . . . which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it.

Prabhupāda: Take that book. Take his book. No, I . . . (tape of Prabhupāda plays in background) (laughter)

Mike Barron: I'll think about that.

Prabhupāda: That is the lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (background talking as people move about) (break) Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this.

Hari-śauri: She's asking how many do we sell.

Prabhupāda: Sell? That I have given, estimate.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: With our standing orders we sell them all.

Carol Jarvis: Oh, no, I mean, how many would you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day?

Gurukṛpā: Yeah, maybe.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands.

Prabhupāda: Twenty thousand dollar daily.

Gurukṛpā: Minimum.

Prabhupāda: Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars.

Carol Jarvis: A day?

Prabhupāda: Day. All over the world.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking)

Prabhupāda: Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history.

Carol Jarvis: Are they sold mainly in the Western countries?

Prabhupāda: All over the world, especially in Europe, America.

Carol Jarvis: In Europe.

Hari-śauri: We even had some book orders just recently from Russia.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are also inquiring.

Gurukṛpā: Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Śrīla Prabhupāda writes, there is standing order—Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture. (background talking)

Carol Jarvis: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: You have read that?

Carol Jarvis: No, I haven't.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture.

Carol Jarvis: Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation among cameramen; machine makes whirring sound)

Prabhupāda: It is breathing? (laughter) (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.)

Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Mahārāja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore . . .

Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life—before this you were married; you were a businessman.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly?

Prabhupāda: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress.

Carol Jarvis: What was it that was different about your way of thinking?

Prabhupāda: It is not my way of thinking. It is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking; it is natural demand of the body.

Carol Jarvis: Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Kṛṣṇa movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths?

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking that, "I am hungry. I require . . ." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way.

Carol Jarvis: You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Kṛṣṇa movement?

Prabhupāda: So if, if . . . at least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boy. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men.

Carol Jarvis: They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary?

Prabhupāda: If you want real happiness . . . that I have already explained. Real happiness—to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Carol Jarvis: It's an insurance for what? An after . . .

Prabhupāda: No more . . . no more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness?

Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: . . . is in fact a happy one—getting up very early in the morning . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things that, "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don'ts and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's.

Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: How old?

Prabhupāda: I am eighty years old.

Carol Jarvis: And do you think the Kṛṣṇa movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty-year-old?

Prabhupāda: At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And . . . so I am moving still all over the world.

Carol Jarvis: Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live?

Prabhupāda: No, if . . . you see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required.

Carol Jarvis: Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Kṛṣṇa movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial . . .?

Prabhupāda: It doesn't . . . the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition.

Carol Jarvis: But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etcetera. There is begging in the streets each day.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But there are many beggars; they do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars—we are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars?

Carol Jarvis: If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know?

Carol Jarvis: Well, the material . . .

Prabhupāda: I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual. But you have no eyes to see to it with.

Carol Jarvis: I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life.

Carol Jarvis: You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: . . . out of the sales of your books.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them?

Prabhupāda: Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free."

Carol Jarvis: Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them.

Prabhupāda: So when they pay for it . . . when they pay for it, they will try to see, "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the . . . but after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money.

Carol Jarvis: Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets?

Prabhupāda: We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit.

Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message for the Australian people.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the message: That people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your . . . this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things—earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements—five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?"

Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording)

Prabhupāda: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it.

Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you manufacture pilot?

Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may.

Prabhupāda: That is your nonsense. That is nonsense.

Carol Jarvis: At the moment we're just taking some photographs.

Prabhupāda: No, at the . . . you talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post-dated check that, "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or . . ." Shall I accept it?

Carol Jarvis: No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions. So . . .

Prabhupāda: All right.

Carol Jarvis: . . . for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview.

Prabhupāda: No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question.

Carol Jarvis: And as I said, they probably will some day.

Prabhupāda: That "probably" again. (laughs) That is not possible.

Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know.

Prabhupāda: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it.

Carol Jarvis: But then why should you know it more than I should?

Prabhupāda: You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it.

Carol Jarvis: Perhaps they could build something . . .

Prabhupāda: "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal.

Gurukṛpā: Perhaps they can keep you young.

Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him . . .

Prabhupāda: Who is . . . who is . . .

Carol Jarvis: . . . giving him a mind, a free mind.

Prabhupāda: So suppose if you say: "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible?

Carol Jarvis: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter)

Carol Jarvis: How do you know?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become . . .

Carol Jarvis: No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared not to know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you can know from the experience that every . . . your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man . . . old woman.

Carol Jarvis: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How do you know?

Carol Jarvis: But, you know, you could use that argument and say: "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease."

Prabhupāda: Now, if you say that, "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy.

Carol Jarvis: No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know . . .

Prabhupāda: So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi . . . (BG 3.27). If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature.

Carol Jarvis: Oh, I couldn't . . . I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So, but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge.

Carol Jarvis: So your answer . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Carol Jarvis: . . . is to work with nature.

Prabhupāda: We can do that. We can do that, that . . .

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

(BG 7.14)

You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Kṛṣṇa says that if you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Carol Jarvis: Why . . . why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way?

Prabhupāda: Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination.

Carol Jarvis: But isn't it also your natural . . . isn't it natural to . . . (indistinct) . . . with nature than to try and fight it?

Prabhupāda: It is struggle. Struggle means . . . struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is . . . the whole world is going on, that . . . they have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain . . . but they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So . . . but they are not coming to the point of understanding that, "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but the nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. If we remain dull—"Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes"—and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You cannot stop it.

Carol Jarvis: But why do you want to fight nature's law?

Prabhupāda: Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young.

Carol Jarvis: No, no, no . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone . . .

Carol Jarvis: I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them.

Prabhupāda: That you are not working. That is . . . that is your . . . that is . . .

Carol Jarvis: But I'm not unhappy.

Prabhupāda: That's all . . . You are not happy.

Carol Jarvis: No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy.

Prabhupāda: No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is . . . then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain.

Carol Jarvis: But all of these people have a master. You do the same to them. You call them and they jump.

Prabhupāda: No.

Carol Jarvis: That's the same as a dog coming to its master.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master . . .

Carol Jarvis: What's the difference?

Prabhupāda: Just like a physician. He is asking that, "Come here. Lie down." His knife . . . you know that he'll make surgical . . . he agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that, "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says: "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that, "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing.

Carol Jarvis: I find it hard to see the difference.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning.

Carol Jarvis: Thank you for your time.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give them some prasāda. (break) . . . yogī. There are many animals. They are also doing . . . (background conversation as people leave) And Garuḍa also, vegetarian.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Garuḍa.

Prabhupāda: Garuḍa. But he carries the Lord Viṣṇu. That is not the point. How to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, that is really . . . to become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Kṛṣṇa-ized. We take Kṛṣṇa's prasādam. That is our . . . we are servant of Kṛṣṇa, so whatever is left over by Kṛṣṇa, we take. If Kṛṣṇa eats meat, we shall take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. What can we do? Therefore we offer Kṛṣṇa whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our . . . Kṛṣṇa says, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26), so we offer Him. If Kṛṣṇa says: "Māṁsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take.

Guest: Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Carol Jarvis: Thank you very much. Bye bye. (guests leave)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything there is Kṛṣṇa, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Kṛṣṇa, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building, that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The activities inside.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same Dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Kṛṣṇa it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirviśeṣavādī and the śūnyavādī, they, "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no . . ." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.256). The things which are usable by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapañcikā, as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rūpa Gosvāmī's injunction. Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ, mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgaḥ. Parityāga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, śūnyavādī and nirviśeṣavādī. We are not such fools.

Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Kṛṣṇa convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad-gītā, he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Kṛṣṇa explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Kṛṣṇa's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's . . . actually that is good. Even if your enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Kṛṣṇa, then it is bad.

So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Kṛṣṇa; then it is good. Otherwise, bad. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore they are all duṣkṛtinaḥ, all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero-vādīs or impersonal-vādīs. We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasādam.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just like we're getting some money for our books . . .

Prabhupāda: The quality's changed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: . . . they take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now—no more money, no more anything.

Prabhupāda: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that, "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Kṛṣṇa. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Kṛṣṇa within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all . . . but we say that Kṛṣṇa has manufactured. So they . . . this philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Kṛṣṇa. Everything . . . Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Sarvam, when we say sarvam, how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Kṛṣṇa, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Kṛṣṇa, that is material, and when it is used for Kṛṣṇa, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam.

Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is . . . then why he's criminal? If you plea . . . if you present this plea, that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend . . ." But that is not the idea, that the money . . . my money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Kṛṣṇa. When it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Kṛṣṇa, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that, "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending, I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me; you are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That last argument again? You're taking money . . .?

Prabhupāda: The money belongs to Kṛṣṇa.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So if you spend it for Kṛṣṇa, then it is spiritual.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1), ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8), bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasām (BG 5.29). Repeatedly says. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are . . ." the government will see. That is criminal. So everything . . . bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasā . . . He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpam (BG 3.13). You'll see this verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9).

Devotee: It's gone, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: What can I do?

Gurukṛpā:

iṣṭān bhogān hi vo devā

dāsyante yajña-bhāvitāḥ

tair dattān apradāyaibhyo

yo bhuṅkte stena eva saḥ

(BG 3.12)

"In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajña, supply all necessities to man. But he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief."

Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)