770119 - Conversation B - Bhuvanesvara

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770119R2-BHUVANESVARA - January 19, 1977 - 36:51 Minutes

Rāmeśvara: . . . but they have never used it against us. But now they have started. One devotee, a girl from Berkeley temple who was a very big book distributor—sometimes she could collect five, six hundred dollars in one day—she was just kidnapped, by order of the court. They have a psychologist who listens to the parents' description, and on the basis of that secondhand report, the psychologist . . .

Prabhupāda: No, kidnapping, that is already law there. If one is minor or without the permission of the parent, with police force she or . . . can be kidnapped.

Rāmeśvara: But this is not for minors. This is for adults.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh.

Rāmeśvara: This is a new thing, that the psychologist will write some report to the court that, "Based on the information I have received, this person is not mentally competent. Therefore this person must be put under the guardianship of their parents even if they are an adult. Otherwise they will harm themselves." So in this way the psychologists . . .

Prabhupāda: But any psychologist will give report, or anyone can . . .

Rāmeśvara: Anyone. You just pay him, and he'll give you a report. They are rascals. And then the court issues an order that, "Now this person's freedom is taken away," and she's put under the charge of her family for thirty days. Then they come with the police, and they give the paper, and they take her away by force, and they fly her to one of these camps where they harass her for thirty days.

Gargamuni: Brainwash.

Rāmeśvara: Try to break their faith.

Gargamuni: Actually they are brainwashing.

Prabhupāda: So this can be done by law?

Rāmeśvara: They have some law, and they are twist . . . misusing it for this purpose.

Prabhupāda: Then what to do?

Rāmeśvara: Well, we have . . . I mentioned we have got these lawyers who want to start a nationwide organization to fight this law for us. So the head of this group is in San Francisco . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, the . . . externally, it appears that anyone can be kidnapped simply by the certificate of the psychologist.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. That is the real point, that they have . . . this is like Nazi Germany. This is insane. So because it is so anti-American, then many people who would not normally connect themselves with our movement are now coming forward to help us.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. Otherwise the freedom is lost. Anyone can be kidnapped.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. That is what they are realizing, that this may not stop at just Hare Kṛṣṇa. They can kidnap anyone. That's our propaganda, to get support.

Prabhupāda: Just like emergency.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Hari-śauri: In Russia they do that. When they don't like someone, they put him in a mental home.

Rāmeśvara: That was that whole article I brought from the first . . . page one of LA Times, that how they have made this legal. And now they have got tax exemption. So now it's going to increase. For the next year it's going to increase, because they're going to get a lot of money from the families as tax write-offs.

Prabhupāda: Tax invention? What is that?

Rāmeśvara: They call themselves educational organizations. They are educating the public, because they do speaking engagements at colleges and different places. So on the basis of that, they applied to the federal government, "Please, we are just an educational group. You must give us tax exemption." So they have been given that. Now people can donate money to them. Instead of paying taxes to the U.S. government, they can donate money to them in exchange for paying taxes. (laughs) So the fighting will get more . . .

Prabhupāda: Intense.

Rāmeśvara: This year, definitely. But that means more propaganda for us; more publicity.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (chuckling)

Rāmeśvara: And I look forward to it, because we'll smash them in each confrontation. They cannot . . . they now realize that when they have a debate against us, they always lose. We have had maybe five or six confrontations in Los Angeles on television and on the radio, and every time they lose. And every time they go away like this.

Prabhupāda: (aside) You can keep there under the bath section. I'll wash there.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So actually we're getting all this free exposure on radio and on television. And each time we come off sounding very intelligent, very religious, very nice, and they come off sounding like fanatics and bigots. So people are getting a good impression of us because of the publicity on radio and television.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Sītā was put into the fire, and she came out unburned. Sītā was blasphemed that, "This woman was kidnapped by Rāvaṇa, and Rāmacandra is so henpecked that He has again picked up her and living with her." So Rāmacandra put him in the fire, and she came unharmed.

Rāmeśvara: You were asking me what is the use of, say, if you came to America, if you were on television. But actually people are very interested in this issue, so they will listen. They are listening to see us, hoping that we will be exposed.

Prabhupāda: Now, Hari-śauri was . . . that there are many fanatics. They may attack me, "He's the man who has started this movement."

Gargamuni: Yes.

Hari-śauri: The deprogrammers will go to any length.

Gargamuni: They'll do anything to stop it. You'd have to have professional bodyguards.

Rāmeśvara: This Reverend Moon, he is not being attacked. The other leaders aren't.

Gargamuni: I think you should carry on your fighting . . .

Hari-śauri: But they're finished. We're the ones who are doing all the fighting.

Gargamuni: . . . from India through your other men.

Rāmeśvara: Or at least a place like Hawaii.

Gargamuni: I feel if you went to America during this fight it may be very dangerous also.

Rāmeśvara: It's possible.

Gargamuni: Because there's a lot of crazy . . .

Hari-śauri: Actually that's a fact.

Gargamuni: These people are crazy. But you could give your orders from India, and this way the fight can go on.

Hari-śauri: Hawaii is unaffected.

Rāmeśvara: Hawaii is not involved so much.

Gargamuni: Still, if they heard that he is in Hawaii, they may go there. No one will come to India, to Bhuvaneśvara. It's dangerous there.

Rāmeśvara: But we were just thinking that if Prabhupāda spends a few months every year outside of India, his time won't be so occupied by all the particular management things that he has to think about in India.

Hari-śauri: Give Prabhupāda some relief.

Rāmeśvara: There'll be some relief.

Hari-śauri: At least when you go to Hawaii you always get a good rest and there's no visitors, and it's very . . . your translation work increases tremendously. It's very nice there.

Prabhupāda: Our immediately problem is toward my health. I am not digesting food, so therefore there is some swelling in the hands and the legs.

Rāmeśvara: That's due to the kidney?

Prabhupāda: Kidney or whatever it may be.

Rāmeśvara: So is it affecting your translation work?

Prabhupāda: That is not affected. That is going on. I have translated today seventeen verses. That does not affect.

Rāmeśvara: So what to do? (Prabhupāda turns on Dictaphone then off) (to Hari-śauri) What's that . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Hari-śauri: I'm just going to mark on the book where he's gone up to. (dictaphone on—reading verse 5)

Rāmeśvara: This is the twenty-fourth chapter, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: Text number five. Where's a pencil?

Rāmeśvara: Text five. How many verses are there in this chapter? You know, Hari-śauri? It's very exciting, because it's just about to begin the Tenth Canto.

Prabhupāda: Good number.

Rāmeśvara: Pradyumna was telling me how the last verses of the chapter describe the appearance . . . getting ready for the appearance of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty-seven. I am on the five.

Hari-śauri: I think the pen's still in the case. Or the pencil's still in the red case.

Rāmeśvara: We know you have a very low opinion of doctors. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: I wish to die without a doctor. Don't . . . when I am . . . it may be, I may be seriously, but don't call doctor. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't be disturbed. Everyone has to die. Let us die peacefully, without doctor. All this medicine, injections and prohibitions, this, that.

Hari-śauri: Tīrtha Mahārāja had all kinds of machines. Still didn't save him.

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and depend on Kṛṣṇa. Actually . . . nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ. That is the Prahlāda Mahārāja's verse. Find out this. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha. Seventh Canto.

Rāmeśvara: Volume Two. That's it.

Hari-śauri: What was that again?

Prabhupāda: Bālasya. B-a-l-a.

Hari-śauri: Bālasyāntaḥpura-sthas . . .

Prabhupāda: Bālasya neha.

Hari-śauri: Oh. Bālasya neha. Bālasya neha śaraṇaṁ pitarau nṛsiṁha nārtasya cāgadam . . .

Prabhupāda: Nārtasya cāgadam udanvati majjato nauḥ.

Hari-śauri: Taptasya tat-pratividhir ya ihāñjaseṣṭas.

Prabhupāda: Ihāñjaseṣṭas.

Hari-śauri: Tāvad vibho tanu-bhṛtāṁ tvad-upekṣitānām (SB 7.9.19).

Prabhupāda: Tvad-upekṣitānām.

Hari-śauri: "My Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, O Supreme, because of a bodily conception of life, embodied souls neglected and not cared for by You cannot do anything for their betterment."

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Hari-śauri: "Whatever remedies they accept, although perhaps temporarily beneficial, are certainly impermanent. For example, a father and mother cannot protect their child, a physician and medicine cannot relieve a suffering patient, and a boat on the ocean cannot protect a drowning man."

Prabhupāda: These are facts.

Gargamuni: That's ultimately, but maybe we could give you some temporary relief, so we don't feel . . . because when you are ill, we feel . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . . but for that, no severe treatment should be accepted. Better not to take. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the past, when your health has not been good, they have begun chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa in all the temples . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: . . . all around the world.

Rāmeśvara: Special, additional kīrtana.

Bhavānanda: Perhaps we should institute that. That would . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you . . . not for my health you do your kīrtana, only then. (chuckles) That first stroke in Second Avenue, that was fatal. You were present, I think.

Gargamuni: Yes. I went to the hospital with Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa saved. Otherwise that was fatal.

Gargamuni: The doctor said that, "How is it that he is still here?" They said.

Prabhupāda: When?

Gargamuni: When you had that attack.

Prabhupāda: Ha, ha.

Gargamuni: It was on, I think, during the . . . you were lecturing on Caitanya-caritāmṛta in the morning lectures you were giving.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Gargamuni: I can remember. And one morning you said you were not feeling well. And the doctor said . . . I can remember. This is . . . your left side was paralyzed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Paralyzed, yes.

Gargamuni: Left side. And this is the most dangerous, the doctor said. Maybe for swelling we can increase the massaging to three times a day.

Hari-śauri: That's what this guy told me not to massage very much.

Gargamuni: Oh.

Hari-śauri: At least not when the swelling is there. Actually that medicine that Shiv Sharma gave you, that was reducing. I don't think this homeopathic medicine is any good. We have to start giving here.

Prabhupāda: So you can give me that.

Gargamuni: My father, he also used to get swelling, but this was due to diabetes.

Prabhupāda: I have got diabetes also.

Gargamuni: He was getting swelling in his legs and hands. But he had to take this insulin, and this kept the swelling nil by taking insulin. Every morning he would give himself a shot. But he had no more swelling.

Hari-śauri: (laughs) He'd just stick a needle in his arm every morning instead.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. There are many gentlemen who take the insulin twice, at least once.

Rāmeśvara: The diabetics. They have diabetes. Very common. We have a devotee who does that. This boy in New York whose parents have kidnapped him many times. He is actually . . . that's their charge against us that, "Oh, my son is diabetic, and you are not spending $25,000 on doctors. You are not taking care of him." That is their charge against us. Then Ādi-keśava Mahārāja said: "All right, if you want him to have such excellent medical treatment, you give us the money and we'll spend it on it." So then the parents say: "Just see! Blackmail." That is a big charge in the paper. It's called extortion. Ādi-keśava Mahārāja was indicted for kidnapping and for extortion.

Hari-śauri: Is that Ed Shapiro?

Rāmeśvara: Yes. The parents cheated again. They said: "Just see, blackmail."

Hari-śauri: That's how that charge came up.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They lie and say: "This president, he said: 'If you do not give us this money, we will let your son die.' "

Prabhupāda: In a different way.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Gargamuni: He didn't write it, did he?

Rāmeśvara: No, it was on the telephone. But he has been charged by a Grand Jury of attempted extortion.

Hari-śauri: They could never prove that. It's ridiculous.

Rāmeśvara: I have heard that now, this month, we have already been on the biggest television shows in America, big night shows. They have these shows that go two, three hours at a time, and everyone in America watches them. Forty million people watch them. So we've already been on those shows now. Our devotees have already been on those shows now because of this controversy. We're becoming more famous.

Prabhupāda: And they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Jayapatākā: You are getting everyone to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yadaiva śraddhāiva. Somehow or other, let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So that is being done, whole countrywide. It has become a national show. (laughter)

Gargamuni: All over the world.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted.

Hari-śauri: Every town and village.

Jayapatākā: If you ask them who is Vivekananda, no one knows. But everyone knows Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: We are known as "Hare Kṛṣṇas," and sometimes "Kṛṣṇas."

Hari-śauri: They call us the "Harries."

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Acchā?

Rāmeśvara: In the deprogrammer newsletter that we intercepted, they did not like to chant so much, so after a while they just started saying "The HKs." They didn't want to say the whole name of God. (aside) You noticed that?

Prabhupāda: Now, "H," to pronounce it, and "Hare," Hare is shorter. "H," it is a long.

Rāmeśvara: But for writing, "HK."

Prabhupāda: Writing, you can, but if you say: "HK," it is not shorter than Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is longer than Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: Anyway, whenever they see "HK," they are thinking in their mind "Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Then what is the news of Germany?

Rāmeśvara: The news from Germany? I have not heard any change—except that Satsvarūpa's men, they began . . . just before Christmas the schools close. They began to go to Germany to take standing orders, and it was the most difficult country, they said. Very difficult. And because . . . one of the reasons is they have such a very bad opinion of us. The Church is against us. But still, they managed to get a few standing orders, and then the schools closed for Christmas.

Hari-śauri: Any reviews?

Rāmeśvara: Not yet. They just began. Now they are spending this month, January and February, in Germany. This will be very valuable for our case there, if the scholars begin appreciating us from a different angle. But meanwhile, book distribution is bigger than ever in Germany.

Prabhupāda: That is the proof we are gaining ground.

Hari-śauri: The two champion big-book distributors are both German boys.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. They have out-distributed everyone, even in America.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Paraṁ vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam (CC Antya 20.12). (referring to an insect) Just see how small animal it is, and how freely it is going. Let them manufacture a small animal like this with chemicals. It has got all the symptoms of animal. It has got the desire, it has thinking, feeling, willing, then eating, sleeping, mating. Everything is there. And as such, the anatomic physiology is there, within such a full stop. Everything is there. If you check them going here, they'll protest. And wherefrom they are coming? Where they are going? Just see how small it is. You cannot see even with naked eyes, so small. But it has all life symptoms. And they say there is no soul.

Rāmeśvara: No, it is some wonderful chemical mixture that they have not discovered yet, very mysterious chemistry. It is all based on this idea of a study of genes and chromosomes, genetics. They have so many words for describing how it happens.

Prabhupāda: Jugglery, word jugglery.

Rāmeśvara: DNA, RNA.

Hari-śauri: But they still can't explain the power force that activates them. They still can't explain the actual source of power that activates those chemicals.

Prabhupāda: They cannot. It is not possible.

Rāmeśvara: In the late 1800s there was a very famous story in America called Frankenstein.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: This Doctor Frankenstein, he took dead bodies from the graveyards and he sewed them together, and then, by electrical energy, it charged . . .

Prabhupāda: This is imagination.

Rāmeśvara: . . . like a battery.

Prabhupāda: Young Frankenstein. Oh, I have seen that picture. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: But actually people all over the Western world then became convinced that one day science will create life. This popularized the idea, in a . . .

Prabhupāda: How rascal they have been educated. Mūḍha.

Rāmeśvara: And the only problem was he had the wrong brain.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rāmeśvara: They took the brain from a known criminal and put it inside the dead man. So when he came back to life he was a demon. That's their only problem, they say. If they'd only taken a brain from a dead body who was a good man, then everything would have been all right.

Prabhupāda: Why do you not take the brain of scientist and make another scientist? Why you should . . . they should regret that, "This scientist is dead"?

Rāmeśvara: That's their goal. That is their goal.

Prabhupāda: Goal that may be, but what they have done? That is the first thing.

Rāmeśvara: And another goal they have is, by controlling the genes, they expect that one day they will be able to produce many men with the same talents, with the same physical appearance—duplicate.

Prabhupāda: "Will." Everything "will." (chuckles) Never practical. Such a rascal, they are going on as scientists. Everything in future. "Trust no future, however pleasant." And they are depending everything on future. "Yes, we are trying. We shall do it within millions of years." And people believe that.

Rāmeśvara: Because there's no God, so this is the only hope—science. The only hope for immortality is science. That's what people think.

Prabhupāda: But that is bogus.

Rāmeśvara: That means people want to believe in immortality. They want eternal life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is factual. Nobody wants to die. Even on death bed, one thinks, "If something could have been done for my saving . . ." One gentleman in Allahabad, he was our friend. So he was dying at the age of fifty-four. So he was requesting the doctors, "Can you not prolong my life for four years more? Then I could finish my scheme." Such a madman. What is nonsense scheme? Āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhāḥ kāma . . . find out this, āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhaḥ.

Hari-śauri:

āśā-pāśa-śatair baddhaḥ

kāma-krodha-parāyaṇāḥ

īhante kāma-bhogārtham

anyāyenārtha-sañcayān

(BG 16.12)

Prabhupāda: Anyāyenārtha-sañcayān.

Hari-śauri: "They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."

Prabhupāda: Is there any purport?

Hari-śauri: "The demoniac accept that the enjoyment of the senses is the ultimate goal of life, and this concept they maintain until death. They do not believe in life after death, and they do not believe that one takes on different types of bodies according to one's karma, or activities in this world. Their plans for life are never finished, and they go on preparing plan after plan, all of which are never finished. We have personal experience of a person of such demoniac mentality . . ."

Prabhupāda: I am talking of that man. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: " . . . who even at the point of death was requesting the physician to prolong his life for four years more because his plans were not yet complete. Such foolish people do not know that a physician cannot prolong life even for a moment. When the notice is there, there is no consideration of the man's desire. The laws of nature do not allow a second beyond what one is destined to enjoy. The demoniac person, who has no faith in God or the Supersoul within himself, performs all kinds of sinful activities simply for sense gratification. He does not know that there is a witness sitting within his heart. The Supersoul is observing the activities of the individual soul. As it is stated in Vedic literature, the Upaniṣads, there are two birds sitting in one tree. The one is acting and enjoying or suffering the fruits of the branches, and the other is witnessing. But one who is demoniac has no knowledge of Vedic scripture, nor has he any faith. Therefore he feels free to do anything for sense enjoyment, regardless of the consequence."

Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). So on the whole, people are in darkness. And that is going on as advancement. This is the only institution to give them some light. There is no doubt about it. All in the darkness. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are in darkness, and some leader comes, he is also in the darkness, and both of them fall into the ditch. This is going on. Do you agree to this point? Otherwise you cannot become good preacher. You must, yourself, must be convinced that actually this is the position. All these rascals, scientists, philosophers, politicians—they're all in darkness, and they're misguiding people. That's all. One of the first-class rascal in darkness is your Darwin. He's in favor of Darwin's theory. (laughs) Another first-class demon is that Freud. (laughter) These are the guides of the modern civilization. Anthropomorphism. No? Anthr . . . what is called?

Gargamuni: Anthropology?

Prabhupāda: Anthropology.

Jayapatākā: Now the latest demon is the one who says the population theory—overpopulation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: He is causing the trouble now.

Prabhupāda: Because everyone is ghostly-haunted and speaking all nonsense. Piśācī pāile yena mati-cchana haya, māyār grasta jīvera sei dāsa upajaya. One who is under the control of māyā, he speaks like ghostly-haunted man—all nonsense.

Jayapatākā: They're actually ghostly-haunted, or as if ghostly-haunted?

Prabhupāda: Ghostly-haunted. Māyā is acting as ghost.

Jayapatākā: Māyā.

Prabhupāda: They attack mostly their guardians—father, mother. These ghostly-haunted men becomes very inimical to the guardians and wants to kill them. Many cases. And abuses the father, mother, like anything. "Ah! You rascal! Why you have come? I shall kill you!" Like that. I have seen it. Mad, you call, or ghostly-haunted. Very dangerous.

Jayapatākā: What is the cure?

Prabhupāda: No cure. He must die. No cure. These hospitals are there, mental. They keep in the mental hospital. But ultimately there is no cure.

Jayapatākā: I read one . . . in a purport you said that hari-nāma can even cure insane people.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Hari-nāma can cure anything. (aside) You have kept there? All right.

Jayapatākā: Would you like to take a drive to that . . . (break) (end)