770201 - Morning Walk - Bhuvanesvara

Morning Walks by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Morning Walk

770201MW-BHUVANESVARA - February 01, 1977 - 47:11 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . .matter and spirit. Why these scientists cannot understand?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're somehow confused.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? That means less intelligent.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We need to show the alternative.

Prabhupāda: No, a child can see there are two things, that what is the difference between a living man and dead man. So my father was living one moment before; now he is dead. The something is missing. The two things are there. Where is the difficulty? And these big, big scientists, they cannot understand. How less intelligent they are. Immediately understood two things, but something is missing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow they have developed this false understanding that everything can be reduced to atoms and molecules.

Prabhupāda: That is still less intelligence, still less intelligence. Kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because life is something which is beyond experimental knowledge . . .

Prabhupāda: That means they do not know. Say that: "beyond experimental knowledge" or "beyond your capacity."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still, they are hesitant to say that.

Prabhupāda: That is their poor fund of knowledge. A gentleman will accept, "Yes, we do not know." But they, in roundabout way, in order to keep their position, they'll bluff. That is most dangerous, bluffing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the . . . If one wants to be cheated and wants to cheat others, you cannot . . . Sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ. There are crooked living entities—one who is snake, and one is man. So you can control the snake, but you cannot control this rascal crooked man. That is very difficult. Khalaḥ kena nivāryate (Nīti Śāstra). He'll remain crooked, however you say. I told you that story? Scissor? Scissor? Yes. Because he's human being, he'll persist, and the other one, the animal, you can bring her, bring that animal under control. But because he is human being, you cannot bring him under control. He will persist.

Gurukṛpā: What was that story of Caesar?

Prabhupāda: Huh? Tell him.

Satsvarūpa: Scissors. Two men were arguing . . .

Gurukṛpā: Oh, the scissors.

Prabhupāda: Scissor logic.

Devotee: What is that?

Satsvarūpa: One man said a knife was used . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: . . .and the other said, "No, it was a scissor that was used." And they began arguing back and forth, and finally one man who held that it was a knife, he threw the other man in the river . . .

Prabhupāda: That "You accept that it is done by scissor." So he said, "No, I won't tolerate." Then he pushed him in the water. Then he was doing like this. (laughter) Scissor logic.

Bhāgavata: Argumentum baculum.

Prabhupāda: That was used. He was put in the water. "Either you accept or I shall push you in the water." "No, I'll not accept." (laughter) So these rascals are like that. They are failure. They cannot. Still, they'll do, (laughter) the so-called scientists.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have an international society for doing that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They must combine. Otherwise there is no place for them. As soon as they accept that there is something beyond physical, then they'll have to accept God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like when we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, then they're very amused.

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "What is it? If it is nonphysical, nonchemical, then what it is?" They inquire.

Prabhupāda: Spiritual.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but . . .

Prabhupāda: That means they have to accept two things—material and spiritual. (break) . . .little difficult. Therefore we have to understand from the authority. The same argument, that you have to understand who is your father from the mother. There is no other . . . (break) . . .Kṛṣṇa says in the beginning, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): "The real living being is within this body, and he's changing." We have to accept. There is no experimental . . . (break) Because they are not sober . . . A sober man does not hesitate. Accept. Dhīras tatra . . . Therefore this word has been used. Rascal cannot understand. So indirectly, one who does not understand, he's a rascal number one. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have the demoniac mentality.

Prabhupāda: Just like mother says, "He is your father." Still, he'll not accept. Rascal number one. There is no other way. Huh? He is searching after his father. Mother says, "My dear boy, here is your father." "No, I don't believe. No." He's a rascal number one.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're obstinate.

Prabhupāda: Obstinate. That scissors philosophy. There is no other way to understand it, but he'll not accept. That is his misfortune. Mūḍha. Bokā. And our problem is that these bokās, rascals, they are leading the society. And they are suffering. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). He's blind. We are also blind. And they're leading us. What will be our consequence? And we are losing the chance of human body to understand what is spirit, what is matter, what is God. We're losing everything. Very precarious condition. These rascal will not allow to understand real thing. That is the position. Otherwise what we have got to do with these rascals? But because they are taking some position, the whole populace is misguided. And they are losing the chance of this human body. Suicided. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amongst the scientists, there are many who are actually against this concept that life is something chemical or physical. But they are somehow afraid of speaking outside . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .even among their colleagues.

Prabhupāda: Because these rascals will boycott them.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Once they speak out, then maybe they'll not get grant from the government.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So somehow they are hesitant to speak out.

Prabhupāda: That is the position. And I have heard that among the scientists' society, if somebody speaks of God he's immediately rejected.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Just like, for example, NASA, this National . . . what is it? Aeronautics and Space Institute. They are applying a lot of grants especially to the study of the origin of life from chemicals and all these research schemes. They are spending billions of dollars. But once . . .

Prabhupāda: See. How foolish. Billions of dollars they are spending for a false thing, and they are educating. Durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31), (chuckling) it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. They're proposing something which is not the fact, which will never be possible. Still, they'll do.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact, there's one member from here from India, he's in Bombay, that Atomic Research Institute. He's one of the . . . (indistinct) . . . members in this study of the origin of life from chemicals. And if we get the possibility we would like to give a lecture there in the . . .

Prabhupāda: He is talking nonsense also?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: All of them.

Prabhupāda: A nonsense society. "International Society of Nonsense."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Their theory is that they know this much . . .

Prabhupāda: I think, perhaps, we have detected first that these are rascals.

Gurukṛpā: You have detected.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Nobody before tried to . . . (chuckling) So . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nobody's saying as boldly as Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So if I would not have students like you, they would have taken me as crazy man. But now I have engaged you to prove them rascals. That is my ambition. (break) . . .life from matter.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Before 1828 in the history of chemistry, there was these scientists. They thought that something, what happens in the body, in the living body, is different than chemistry in the physics. That is called vital theory.

Prabhupāda: No, Bhagavad-gītā says, nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi . . .

Prabhupāda: . . .nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ (BG 2.23). So what is there within the physical world that is not burned by fire? Where is that thing? But these rascals have no knowledge. It is clearly said, indirectly. This is called negative definition: "It is not this." And because he has no brain to understand, so therefore Kṛṣṇa is explaining in the negative way, that "You cannot cut by any weapon; you cannot burn it; it is never dried up." Because any physical thing, it can be cut, it can be dried up, it can be burned; it is just opposite. So many ways He has described, but the rascal will not accept. Find out what is that which is never burned. Anything you take, even big, big iron ore, they're burning. And it is clearly said, "It is not burned." Therefore they are thinking there is no living being in the sun planet. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam (BG 4.1): "I told . . ." This is nonbeliever class, rascal class.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then in 1828 this German chemist, whose name is Frederick Wohler, he synthesized, it is called urea. Urea is a chemical that comes out of urine. It's normally in urine from . . . called inorganic compounds. So he announced that there's nothing strange about the organic world that happens in the living system. So from that time onwards they thought that life can be studied in terms of chemistry. But it is already 150 years since that theory, but nothing happened. Nothing's understood.

Prabhupāda: That I have already discussed, that from orange tree you can get that acid, citric acid?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Citric acid.

Prabhupāda: But from citric acid, you cannot get orange tree. That is not possible. A living tree can produce citric acid chemical, but citric acid cannot produce a living . . . Therefore chemical comes from living being, not the living being comes from the chemical. This is the conclusion.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now we are in a better position because this Khorana, he just synthesized this gene last month. So now, with the synthesis of this gene, nothing is happening. Because this is what they thought: once they synthesize this, they will be able to understand life in terms of chemistry. But nothing is understood, though it has been synthesized.

Prabhupāda: Failure.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it has been completely failed. So now they are thinking about something else, that "Maybe what we thought was all wrong."

Prabhupāda: All wrong. Prove that. This is all wrong.

Gurukṛpā: They won't speak up or they'll lose their jobs.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. So they're coming around. When we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, this is very touchy word which they don't like to hear in the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, "nonphysical." Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ, nainaṁ śoṣayati āpaḥ (BG 2.23). Everything, five elements, material . . . It has nothing to do with these five elements, clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is beyond this. Here, whatever you find is kṣitir āpaḥ tejaḥ marud vyomā: earth, water, air, fire. That's all. But beyond that, it is not physical. And at last, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Everything is there. So I was confident in the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore I strongly stressed, "This is all wrong." I believed completely in the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. I never experimented. But I know what Kṛṣṇa says is completely right.

Yaśodānandana: Yasmād kṣaram atito 'ham akṣarād atito 'ham(?). One who knows Kṛṣṇa knows everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you simply study Kṛṣṇa, then you'll study everything. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). He becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti. He becomes competent to enter in the spiritual world and associate with Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, just like that story with the scissors, how can we force the scientists to accept Kṛṣṇa and the Bhagavad-gītā? How can we force the scientists to accept Bhagavad-gītā? The problem seems to be . . .

Prabhupāda: No, if it is a fact, you can force, if it is a fact. And if it is not fact, then it is obstinacy. If it is reality, you can force, just like the father forces the child, "Go to school." Because he knows without education his life will be frustrated, so he can force. I was forced. I was not going to school. Yes. (laughs) My mother forced. My father was very lenient. My mother forced me. She kept one man especially to drag me to the school. So force is required.

Gurukṛpā: But that is the authority. Your parents were your authority.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: But they don't accept us as authority. They say, "I'm equal to you. Actually I know more than you."

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness, another foolishness. Father-mother, natural guardian, they can force.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have to show them the higher understanding . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .the higher part of knowledge.

Prabhupāda: The child may be foolish, but father-mother cannot see that their child will remain a fool. He can force. Government also. Why there is military force? Why there is police force? If you want to be outlaw, then you'll be forced to accept the law. Force is required.

Devotee (1): But first the child has to see that there is some benefit from going to school.

Prabhupāda: Child cannot see. He's a rascal. He should be beaten with shoes. Then he will see. The child cannot see. Putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita): "Sons and disciples should be always chastised." That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. "Never pat them." Lālane bahavo doṣās tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ . . . "If you pat, then he'll be spoiled. And if you chastise him, he'll come out a very nice person. Therefore, either disciple or son, they should be always chastised." This is the injunction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. There is no question of patting them.

Gurukṛpā: People want to be flattered. They don't want to be told very strongly.

Prabhupāda: And that is the position of disciples. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' (CC Adi 7.71). Caitanya Mahāprabhu was God Himself, and He said that "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool rascal number one." Chastisement. That is required. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, a great moral instructor, he has advised, tāḍayen na tu lālayet: "Always chastise them. Otherwise they'll be spoiled."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The intelligent boy knows that, that chastisement is mercy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Devotee (2): The scientists are saying that instead of everything coming from the micro-organism, that instead of that happening now, that it's coming from man. Life is created from man.

Prabhupāda: Then life is life. Life coming from life.

Devotee (2): But they're afraid to tell everybody publicly because it is in all the history books, and the children will be effected by it. So they say it will be at least ten more years before the truth is out, that actually Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, in the textbooks in the schools.

Prabhupāda: No, if they are afraid of putting the real truth, how they are scientists?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are cheaters.

Prabhupāda: Cheaters. Here a scientist said that. That is more valuable.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's another aspect they call logical positivism . . .

Prabhupāda: So you know all these things. Dedicate your life to turn over all these rascals. You can do that. You are in a position. And present this life is from life to the . . . They have Nobel Prize. Yes. You challenge. Will it not be a great challenge?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be the greatest challenge . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .in science. Everybody's saying that the other, and we are saying, very small fraction, almost insignificant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is in every science. When you speak the truth there is small section, and then gradually it develops: seed and then big tree, and not immediately big tree.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One of the professors, see, there is a question, this logical positivism, saying that something, life, is beyond experimental knowledge. Then he said according to logical positivism, whatever we cannot see or whatever we cannot find out by experiment is not science.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not science. That I am always speaking, that science means not to observe but to make experiment. And that is science—observation and experiment. If you cannot make experiment, it is all logic. Therefore they say "theory, theory." The Darwin is careful. He says "theory." He doesn't say "science," because he knows that he is talking all nonsense. So this is theory.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also say that you cannot prove this ātmā by experiment.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, then it is not science. You cannot prove; then why do you say it can be made by chemical combination?

Satsvarūpa: Well he's saying that they say our position is we can't prove. We can't prove our . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we can prove. Just that . . . Our argument is that this is beyond our experimental; therefore you have to hear from the authority. That is our proof. Just like you cannot make an experiment who is your father, but you have to hear from your mother. That is the only way. There is no second alternative.

Satsvarūpa: Śabda-pramāṇa.

Prabhupāda: Śabda-pramāṇa. Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is another very strange statement in this regard saying that though we cannot prove something by experiment, but sometimes it is convenient to assume that way.

Prabhupāda: No, that is foolishness. How you assume?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is logical positivism, saying that . . . Now, there's a house . . . Let's say there is a temple there, but since I don't see the temple there, but I don't know that the temple is existing or not, but it is convenient to assume that there is a temple.

Prabhupāda: No, no. When there is a possibility of getting proof, why shall I assume?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they say they cannot see.

Prabhupāda: Now, just the same example: You cannot see. You cannot see your father because the father was before your birth. Only mother can see. How you can refute this argument? Therefore she is the only proof.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have a small chapter on this in the book, this logical positivism.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Very interesting and very strange.

Prabhupāda: It is quite logical that without father, nobody is born. So I do not know who is my father, but the mother is the evidence. That's all. You cannot make this theory that "I was born without father." That is not possible. That is not the laws of nature. But there must be father. You can say, "I have not seen him." And that is not proof that there is no father. One who has seen, go. Tattva-darśinaḥ. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

(BG 4.34)

Go to mother, who has seen your father. That is only proof. Tattva-darśinaḥ. She has seen your father. So you submit, praṇipātena, to mother: "Mother, tell me who is my father." And she'll say, "Yes, he is." Tattva . . . She has seen. Tattva-darśinaḥ. It is not that mother is blindly indicating somebody as father. She has seen, and you have to learn from your mother by submission. That's all. There is no other way.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we use this theory.

Gurukṛpā: So they ask us, "Have you seen God?" They ask us, "So you say you have seen God."

Prabhupāda: No, I have not seen. God personally comes, and I see Him. Kṛṣṇa came. A fortunate person saw Him. Just like Arjuna saw. He accepted, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣam (BG 10.12): "Oh, You are person," śāśvatam, "eternally." He has seen. We have to take knowledge from Arjuna. That is called paramparā system. He has seen God, and he is giving a statement. You take Arjuna's statement and see God. That is the way. We are not blindly accepting Kṛṣṇa, but one who has seen Kṛṣṇa, his statement is there; we accept.

Devotee (1): No one has seen the scientist create life yet, so why should we accept from matter? The scientists are saying life can be made from matter.

Prabhupāda: What is this? What does he say?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's saying that no one has seen science has created life.

Prabhupāda: So why . . .? Therefore?

Devotee (1): Therefore we should not accept.

Prabhupāda: We should not accept.

Devotee (1): An intelligent man will not accept

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another argument, yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we can utilize these theories . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .to disprove their own theories.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very convenient. Like this logical positivism . . . Darwin's . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very good argument, that these rascals have never produced life, and why do they say like that? It's good argument, because they say that "We have not seen; therefore we don't believe." They're experimental. But you have not experimented. Why you push? Why you brainwash my brain? (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to this logical positivism, you can say that it is convenient to say that man has arisen from apes, but that is not the truth.

Prabhupāda: There is no experiment.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's no experiment, but it is convenient to assume according to this logic; but that's not a fact.

Prabhupāda: But why the modern ape is not producing any human being?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that's a long time ago.

Prabhupāda: Long time.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Millions of years ago.

Prabhupāda: But why man is producing man, not the ape? Just see how they lunatic they are.

Bhāgavata: Why does the process of evolution stop?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's convenient to assume that way, but that's not a fact.

Gurukṛpā: Convenient means for your sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: So we have to discuss so many things, immense field. Go out . . . (break) At least you have to accept that "I am blind." So how you can show others the path? You are blind.

Jayapatākā: By distributing your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Then the people begin to realize that the scientists are blind. Once they begin to disbelieve and doubt the scientists, then the scientists themselves will also . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: . . .be able to come out with the truth.

Prabhupāda: When a common man will challenge them, that "You are rascal. You are blind. You are showing us road?" then it will be. I refuse to accept it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, first of all, we have to show that their theory . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .is wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then give an alternative view, and see which one is based on more real knowledge. Then they'll accept. Otherwise they will not.

Prabhupāda: So that duty is now entrusted to you, in your hands. Do it very nicely. Kṛṣṇa will help you. (break)

Jayapatākā: . . .to disprove them. But we have the true fact, but they cannot . . . Then let them disprove that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: When the people all understand our philosophy, then they'll have to disprove us. Otherwise they won't stand. Why we should disprove their nonsense? They haven't proved it yet.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, at the moment they're the majority. So majority carries the vote. That's the slogan of . . . But if they're open-minded, if they are honest . . . We say, "Be honest, be frank and be open-minded. Why you confine your small theory?"

Prabhupāda: No, they are not open-minded. They have to be pushed within the water. (laughs)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's our first remark, "Please let's be open-minded. We are not dogmatic. We're not presenting something religious, fanatic. But let's discuss in open platform, see which one is . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our argument. Just like this plant is coming out of the womb of mother. Everything comes from the mother. So there must be father. Anything you see, it is coming from earth. Earth is the mother. Dhenu-dhātrī. So where is the father? "I cannot see." You cannot see? That does not mean there is no father. There must be father. And the father says, "Yes! Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4)." Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 7.10). The answer is there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a very subtle subject. We try to present this bhakti-yoga among scientists . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .and these physicists and biologists. We are thinking how to do it.

Prabhupāda: No, here is argument: Here is a plant is coming. So yoni. The source of birth is called yoni. So yoni is there, the earth. But who begotten this? There must be father. Because we, our experience, without father and mother there is no generation. You prove that, that "Here is the mother; there is the child. And where is the father?" And the father says, "Yes, I am father." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. That's all. There must be father. "You do not see"—this is not logic. There must be father. So there must be God; otherwise how they are coming? By whose arrangement? Now, the exact fruit and flower will come from this. You bring another tree, not it will resemble like. Varieties of life. You cannot say it is accident. Huh? Why not accident—the red flower comes here and the white flower comes there? Accident? They're standing for years. Why there is not a single accident? And "accident." You say "accident."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is a nonsense theory.

Prabhupāda: Simply rascals. And because we have become rascals, we accept them, "Oh, here is scientist."

Gurukṛpā: They find it convenient to accept what these scientists say.

Prabhupāda: No, accept, we accept—but we accept the real scientist, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are triumphant. We understand.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is difficult to . . . In an audience like that, in, let's say, one-hour lecture, we cannot say that "You go to the temple and chant and do all these things."

Prabhupāda: No, that is later on. First of all you have to accept that there is original father; that is God. Now, how to realize that God, that is another detail.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we made an attempt . . . I made an attempt to show this, that bhakti-yoga is science, but it is a subtle science. But it has . . .

Prabhupāda: To understand God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It needs to . . .

Prabhupāda: It is a science. It is the only science by which you can understand God. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It needs to change our thinking. So we approached like this, that . . .

Prabhupāda: But because they are not accepting the process, they cannot understand what is God. Therefore they are bewildered. This is the only process. So if they take to bhakti-yoga, they will see, "Yes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). Oh, everything is Vās . . . Kṛṣṇa is the origin." No, they are struggling to know the origin, but because they have not taken the right process, they are bewildered. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). By false ahaṅkāra, egotism, they are rejecting, that "There is no God," and they remain in the darkness. Mūḍha janmani janmani (BG 16.20). Birth after birth they remain in darkness. (pause) Mūḍha janmani janmani, birth after birth. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when we started, saying that "Once we try to understand this fundamental part of knowledge, we should not be too arrogant with nature," that "Let's approach it in a harmonious . . . in a real humble mind."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Then knowledge can be understood in it's proper form."

Prabhupāda: And as soon as you become puffed-up, then lost.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's what scientists are. They say they'll be able to understand everything by their experimental knowledge. We say, "No. Let's think about it. Let's be honest. There are so many things which are beyond our experimental knowledge."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Avāṅ mānasa-gocara. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yoja . . . (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma parva 5.22). Which is beyond your knowledge, you don't argue. Accept the authority.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is approach. Then we bring bhakti-yoga . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .saying these things.

Prabhupāda: That is the beginning, submission. Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). That is the beginning of bhakti-yoga. And if you remain just like the scissor man, then you'll never learn.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And once we bring this bhakti-yoga, we can prove very easily that the Supreme Being must be a person.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have some relations.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is speaking as person. (break)

Devotee (1): . . .possibility that there is a soul and that there is a God. But when . . . I showed them a Fifth Canto, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and they were reading about the structure of the universe in the Bhāgavatam, and this was completely opposite to all of their experiments. So if this is actually a fact, then why can't it be proved experimentally that the Bhāgavatam statements on the origin of the universe and so on are correct?

Prabhupāda: Hmm? It is correct. How they can prove it is incorrect?

Devotee (1): Well they say that by mathematics we can prove the position of the planets . . .

Prabhupāda: So we have got our mathematics also. (break) (in car) . . .workers. In the beginning I was alone. Now we have got so many things. So we shall come out triumphant.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's Prabhupāda's mercy.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This professor of mine, he was very much against at the beginning of the theory. Then, when I gave this lecture, he invited me for home, in his home, and his wife supported our theory, so he came around, saying that "Yes, science says earth is only 4.5 billion years old. And there are so many defects." So they have to accept that "No, we cannot be correct." So people are coming around slowly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . .Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra, vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra (CC Adi 8.15): "Just see what kind of merciful is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And if you consider it perfectly, you'll see it it wonderful." Vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra. "Oh, here is Caitanya." Caitanya. Caitanya means living force. He says vicāra. "Just try to understand by logic, by philosophy, by argument." That is vicāra. We are not following Caitanya Mahāprabhu blindly. That is not our position. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna argued with Kṛṣṇa in so many ways. At last he accepted, "Yes." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12): "You are the Supreme Person. The rascals, they do not understand Your personality, but Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, Devala, they have accepted, and I also see. Therefore, whatever You say, I agree. That's all." This is experiment. Arjuna did not accept Kṛṣṇa blindly. He knew, but for our sake he gave so many arguments. At last, he accepted. So we have to follow Arjuna. (japa) (break)

Gurukṛpā: Great.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurukṛpā: He was great by admitting that he was also a thief, but a big one.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Gurukṛpā: So if the scientists admit that actually they are not right, that makes them great.

Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. He must be standing on truth. That is greatness. Because "To err is human." Anyone commits mistake. There is no doubt about it. But after committing mistake, if I stick to that mistake, that is foolishness. When it is detected that it is mistake, you must admit. That is greatness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are bringing this law of nature which is a higher order law. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . .thousandth part of the top tip of the hair. That is also given. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā (CC Madhya 19.140). In the Upaniṣads there is. The dimension of the ātmā is given. That small particle, atomic, is so powerful. And what about the Supreme?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They ask, "What is the force that combined matter and the ātmā, matter and the life, matter and the jīva, or ātmā? What is the force behind it?"

Prabhupāda: Force, because ātmā is independent. He can live in the spiritual world or in the material world, as he likes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But is not correct, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Paramātmā is the . . .

Prabhupāda: Paramātmā is . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .is behind?

Prabhupāda: Yes, behind, yes. He's the origin of ātmā. Mamaivāṁśa. Kṛṣṇa said, "This ātmā is My small particle part." He says that. So Paramātmā is the origin, and these are fragmental parts of Paramātmā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That makes our statement very valid.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātmā . . . Super-ātmā is the source of ātmā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can explain everything, all . . . but cannot explain by science.

Prabhupāda: That is the Bhagavad-gītā, Seventh Chapter, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4): "They are also My energy, and beyond this, there is superior energy." Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). Both of them energies. The material elements and the spiritual element, both of them are different energy of the supreme ātmā. So one is superior; another is inferior. Because we are superior, we are controlling the inferior energy, and by such control, from inferior energy matter, we have created this motorcar. Therefore I am superior.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the West, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Western philosophy . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . .this subject matter is called "mind-body problem." The mind, sometimes they compare as spirit or soul in some Western philosophical circles.

Prabhupāda: Because they are not yet advanced. Beyond the mind there is intelligence, and beyond the intelligence there is the soul.

indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur

indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ

manasas tu parā buddhir

yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ

(BG 3.42)

They have come up to the mind, but above mind there is intelligence, and above intelligence there is soul. So we can understand this very easily because we accept Bhagavad-gītā. It is easy for us. And for others—they are going step by step—it is very difficult. But we can understand immediately.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It's true that that theory that everything is material or everything beyond matter is false . . . (break) (end).