770131 - Conversation C - Bhuvanesvara

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

770131R3-BHUVANESVARA - January 31, 1977 - 71:44 Minutes

Prabhupāda: What is the prospect, Hong Kong? I don't think there is any.

Hari-śauri: Bangkok.

Prabhupāda: Er, Bangkok, yes.

Yogeśvara: No, my personal conclusion after a few weeks there is that either there should be a traveling party doing that part of the subcontinent . . . otherwise, if there is a gṛhastha couple with some experience, we could have an information center in this one house. Because it's not expensive. Living there is very cheap. There is good foodstuffs, and rent is not expensive.

Prabhupāda: Now, this house, we can continue to live there?

Yogeśvara: We can continue to rent. Rent is only $175 a month, including utilities. So it is not at all expensive. But . . .

Prabhupāda: And it is a very nice house.

Yogeśvara: Yes. House is in good shape. There is enough room.

Prabhupāda: So why not maintain that place?

Yogeśvara: Then someone has to be delegated to be there.

Prabhupāda: Someone . . . find out.

Yogeśvara: Find out some people.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. And the girl can speak in the local language. She may also . . .

Yogeśvara: She can speak in the language. She'll be all right as long as she has some good association.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogeśvara: That means, perhaps, a gṛhastha couple, so that there's some girl for her to be with. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . not married. Better if she would have been married. So there is no candidate for marrying her?

Yogeśvara: Not in France. At one point she was expressing the desire to receive some training, and she even mentioned Los Angeles. But any center where she could receive training would be helpful. She's enthusiastic, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. I know that she's enthusiastic.

Yogeśvara: She had . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Preaching work is meant for the sannyāsīs, not for the married persons. Sannyāsī and brahmacārī, they go . . . married couple also go. Generally it is meant for that. So if you have got sufficient men for preaching work, so you can make one center there and traveling.

Yogeśvara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So. The GBC . . . what I can do?

Hari-śauri: The second language is French, isn't it?

Yogeśvara: Not too much French. English there is. Is there a GBC for Thailand?

Prabhupāda: Everyone is . . . every GBC is for everywhere. Let it be considered in the next meeting.

Yogeśvara: At Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: You can continue rent for one or two months more and see if there is possibility. Our mission is for every city, every town, every village, and if we can maintain for some utility, that is very good. If you have no men, we cannot linger on there. Otherwise we want to open branches everywhere. That is our mission. (aside) We have . . . what is . . .?

Yogeśvara: We'll be leaving tonight.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Yogeśvara: To France, via Bangkok.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Yogeśvara: We just came to make the report to you, and we were in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: So you will not stay here up to . . .? No.

Hari-śauri: Festival?

Yogeśvara: There is work for us, service waiting in France.

Prabhupāda: So what is the report in France? Paris atmosphere is all right?

Yogeśvara: Paris? Paris, there is good enthusiasm because there is saṅkīrtana party. It is more difficult at the farm, because there is no saṅkīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Why? There are so many men. There is no saṅkīrtana?

Yogeśvara: Yes. It is far from the nearest city.

Prabhupāda: But within the farm there is no saṅkīrtana?

Yogeśvara: Regular temple activities are going on.

Prabhupāda: Saṅkīrtana is there.

Yogeśvara: There is once a week a party going out.

Prabhupāda: No, not going out. I mean to say in the temple.

Yogeśvara: Inside the temple. Oh, yes. Inside the temple regular programs are there.

Prabhupāda: So why outside? There is no sufficient men? But when I was there I saw so many men.

Yogeśvara: Wherever you go, thousands of people will follow.

Hari-śauri: They were not all from the farm. They were from everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Then not many devotees are there in the farm?

Yogeśvara: There are maybe thirty-five devotees traveling, saṅkīrtana devotees, and then . . .

Prabhupāda: Centering that farm?

Yogeśvara: Centered at the farm. They come back maybe once every two months. And then there are about eighty devotees at the farm, of which forty are children. Of those children, twenty or twenty-two are Gurukula children. The others are too small.

Prabhupāda: So nobody is engaged in production—fruit, flowers, grains, milk?

Yogeśvara: There are not many full-time devotees doing production, maybe four full time.

Prabhupāda: And why part time?

Yogeśvara: Part time, everyone is trying to do an hour a day.

Prabhupāda: So what they do, others?

Yogeśvara: Well, from the other forty devotees left there is the staff of pūjārīs, press, temple maintenance. So not so many are left for doing full-time work on the land.

Prabhupāda: You are not getting new devotees to join?

Yogeśvara: In Paris.

Prabhupāda: Yes. From Paris or here . . . in Paris you can . . . from Paris you can bring in the farm.

Yogeśvara: Well, at the farm there is not as much of a new bhakta program as in Paris. So the new men are encouraged to stay in Paris to get fixed up first.

Prabhupāda: So new . . . when they are trained up, they can come, live, especially gṛhasthas. My point is whether the farm is attractive. Not very much?

Yogeśvara: The potential is wonderful.

Prabhupāda: And therefore I'm asking. Potential is wonderful, so why they are not attracted to live in the farm and be self-independent and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? That is our farm project. Our farm project is they should be satisfied with simple living. That is nice living. If you get milk, if you get fruit, if you get grain and open air, it is very healthy life. Why they should not be attracted?

Yogeśvara: It is still the beginning, and because it's the beginning, it is a little difficult sometimes.

Prabhupāda: That may be. But this should be our aim. We should not be attracted by the modern city life. Simplified life. Save time and utilize for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is perfect life. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana life means agriculturist—cowherd boys, uneducated girls, cows and calves and tree, fruits. This is Vṛndāvana. The center is Kṛṣṇa.

Yogeśvara: Simple living.

Prabhupāda: But they are the topmost devotees. These (chuckling) uneducated, without any town life, cow-men, they are Kṛṣṇa's best friend. Unsophisticated, no education, but love intense—that is perfect. That attracted Kṛṣṇa more. Vṛndāvanaṁ parityajya pādam ekaṁ na kartavya . . . Kṛṣṇa is so much attached to Vṛndāvana that He goes nowhere. What is that? They are not educated girls, up-to-date fashion . . . (indistinct) . . . or nothing. Crude. As soon as there was blowing of the flute, immediately they began to run towards Kṛṣṇa. Somebody is taking care of children, somebody is engaged in boiling milk, and somebody was even lying down with her husband. Still, immediately. Very crude, unsophisticated, but intense love for Kṛṣṇa—that is Vṛndāvana. We want to introduce this farm project means intense love for Kṛṣṇa. And other things—very simple: little milk, little food grain, little vegetable, that's all. And that is very nice. If you get fresh vegetable, fresh milk and food grain, what do you want more? And from milk you can prepare so many nice preparations, unlimited number, all very palatable, sweet. This civilization we want to introduce, not so-called rascal civilization and become implicated in this cycle of birth and death. This is not civilization. This is killing civilization. The human being got the opportunity to get out of these clutches of birth and death. They do not understand. They're so rascal, they do not understand how they are implicated in this cycle of birth and death, nor they do take it seriously, that this is the problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). They are so blind rascals, they do not see that this is real suffering. They do not know it. Simply theorizing, making plan, and they do not know what is the suffering. Such a rascal civilization. So we have to introduce real civilization. Therefore we are struggling so hard. So make in such a way. That's a very nice place, center of Europe and very nice place. What is the condition of rainfall?

Yogeśvara: Last summer was dry, but it was not so much dangerous for us. And now it is steady.

Prabhupāda: So there must be rainfall. And if we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, there will be rainfall.

Yogeśvara: That will be true everywhere we go.

Prabhupāda: There'll be rainfall. And then even barren land will be fertile. They do not know this. They are importing water. These rascals, they continue sinful life and import water. There are oceans and seas. Why you scientist (chuckling) cannot bring the water, make cloud and pour water? Where is that science? What do they say about it?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are making it.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Again making. These rascals can promise . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Slowly.

Prabhupāda: While slowly, then life will be automatically finished. Instead of seeing success, he'll be . . . he will die. Sarthe sarthe dal puriya gelun. One man was to go to a fair, so he began to dress himself nicely. So dressing, dressing, in the meantime the fair is finished. (laughs) This is their program. You require water immediately: "All right, after three hundred millions of—water." This is scientist, all rascals. I use very strong word, but actually . . . simply promising; no solution of problems. They do not know even what is what. But big, big words, jugglery of words. They are themselves rascals, and some rascals praise them, "Oh, you are . . ." Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). What they can do? Real problem, there is no solution. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Big, big scientists, why they not make provision that "My dear students, when I shall be dying, you give this pill and I shall again . . ." or "I am manufacturing another brain like me. You can utilize it"? Where is that science? The scientific brain of Einstein, he could not prepare another brain like his? Hmm? Was he able to do that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. No. They have to do it.

Prabhupāda: But who made his brain? He is accepted as a great scientist because he has got good brain, but he cannot make that brain. There is another scientist. He has made this brain. So we have to seek that scientist.

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

(BG 10.8)

So when one understands that, "Here is the scientist, Kṛṣṇa, who has given the brain of Einstein. He's the source of his brain," then the devotee becomes that, "Why not consult this brain?" Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ. "I have given that brain." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate. "All good brains, they have come from Me." Iti matvā, "When one understands," budhāḥ, "he's learned." Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ. "Oh, You are everything." Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā (BG 7.19). That is wanted. If we do not think like this, that "Here is a good brain, but if he's actually the owner of this brain or if he knows how his brain is working, why he does not manufacture another brain? Why he cannot? But somebody has made his brain. So why not take shelter of that person?" And that is intelligent. We give credit to the scientist for doing big things, but who has made his brain? What is the answer of the scientist?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . therefore he's budhāḥ. Iti matvā. When he understands that there is a big scientist who has made all these things, iti matvā, he understands that. Iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ. "Oh, my great scientist is Kṛṣṇa." And dṛḍha-vratāḥ. "Oh, here is the scientist. Why shall I go to the rascal scientist? Simply jugglery of words." They cannot make even an egg, and they are promising life, and we come from chemicals. They cannot study even the what contents of the egg, what is the con . . . we can see in our naked eyes: there is some white substance, yellow substance, covered. You do it. You are claiming chemical. You cannot study even the chemicals from the egg. Hmm? What do you think, scientist? Do you know what is the chemical?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you make another egg with the chemicals and bring life?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In principle they can make all chemicals in the egg.

Prabhupāda: No, no, they can make, but . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they don't make life.

Prabhupāda: In future you can do everything, but at the end it is failure.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The chemical composition of the egg can be synthesized.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. I say that you do it, and make it egg-shaped, and now we have incu . . . what is called? Incubator?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Incubation.

Prabhupāda: Incubation, and get. Why take the egg from the chicken?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make the chemicals, but life cannot come out of that.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that life comes from chemicals? Why do you make this false propaganda? That is our protest. You cannot do it, and still you make false propaganda.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In principle . . . last month in December, this Khorana . . . he's from MIT, the Indian who got Nobel Prize about few years ago. He's one of the big scientists in this, called, molecular biology. Actually he synthesized this code gene, one of the small fragments of . . . they're called DNA molecule. It's supposed to be the . . . (indistinct) . . . molecule for all living systems. So the promise was about ten years ago . . .

Prabhupāda: Again promise. That promise we don't want.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the promise was about ten years ago that once they synthesized this gene, complete synthesis, then they'll be able to make life . . .

Prabhupāda: "They will be." Again promise.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . in the test tube. But it's not working. They have synthesized now.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you talk nonsense if it is not working? Therefore you are nonsense.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So actually it is good that we have come to a point now even in science that their promises are all going to go wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we want to prove. That is our propaganda. Therefore we have engaged you. Prove that they are all rascals. They are giving false promise.

Yogeśvara: But then they will say: "We have produced so many successes also."

Prabhupāda: What is nonsense success? We don't take that success!

Yogeśvara: Well, we have polio vaccine, we have aspirin.

Prabhupāda: I am so successful that I am going to die tomorrow. I am so successful.

Hari-śauri: Aspirin won't save you from death.

Prabhupāda: Mother asked . . . mother Durgā asked the devotee—because Durgā comes every year—asked the devotee, "My dear son, you are happy?" "Yes, mother, very happy." "So there is no complaint?" "Only two complaint." "What is that?" "There is no food and there is no cloth. Otherwise we are very happy." (laughs) (laughter) Two difficulties, no food, no cloth. That's all. These rascals are like that. Everything advanced, but when the question of death, "Oh, that . . ." Einstein also died.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In open discussion they come around to this point, that they're lacking some fundamental knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that we have to prove. Therefore I am teasing you. Prove that they are passing on as very intelligent, very advanced, but all rascals. Let them admit that, "We are rascals, without God consciousness." That is my propaganda. (break) Let them understand that without God consciousness they are rascals. And why the rascals should pass on as very intelligent in the rascal society? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He's rascal, and some other small rascals, they are praising, "Oh, you are so great. You are so great."

Yogeśvara: They may challenge us also.

Prabhupāda: What is that challenge?

Yogeśvara: That "What is your solution to hunger? We are feeding people because we have produced ways of making crops grow faster."

Prabhupāda: What you are feeding? Then why do you complain against me? If you are feeding, that is no challenge to me. You are rascal! You cannot do it; you are challenging me. This is the answer. If you are actually feeding, then where is challenge to me? You do not know how to answer.

Yogeśvara: Well, we are also feeding them meat, but you object to that.

Prabhupāda: Meat . . . why there are so many hungry person? Meat or any, stool, whatever you like, you do. But why there are so many hungry person? You are complaining that, "We are feeding." Are you feeding all of them?

Yogeśvara: They will say in India it is because of religion.

Prabhupāda: Again India, again. Take the total. Why say India and America . . .?

Yogeśvara: Well, because the example is most striking there of people who allow their children to go hungry because of their religion.

Prabhupāda: So we don't say that you keep them hungry. But can you give them life?

Yogeśvara: Therefore they start these programs that "You give up your religion."

Prabhupāda: You are also captivated by their program.

Hari-śauri: But we see in the materially advanced society . . .

Prabhupāda: What this material advance? You don't want to die; you have to die. Where is material advancement?

Hari-śauri: But there's no poverty or anything like that.

Prabhupāda: There is poverty. And "We are . . ." The same thing, "Mother, everything is all right. Simply there is no cloth, there is no food." You don't want to die. Nobody wants to die. Why you are dying? That is the real poverty. From the śāstra we understand, na hanyate hanyamāne śarī . . . (BG 2.20). Why I am under this tribulation?

Yogeśvara: So they may challenge, "Do you mean to say that you can feed the whole world without meat?"

Prabhupāda: We don't say, you are saying. We don't say. We say that you must be punished without food. You are dying without food. That is your proper justice. We say that. We are not anxious to this daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. We are not. We give. Whatever we have got, we distribute prasādam. That's all. We are not concerned about their daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. That is not our business. Suppose there are so many persons, they are without food in the hospital. Doctor has prescribed, "No food." What you can do there? Can you show your sympathy? "Oh, so many persons are lying without any . . . let us give." Then you'll be beaten with shoes.

Yogeśvara: Because you haven't understood the purpose.

Prabhupāda: If you go with sympathy that, "So many hungry persons are here," then you will be beaten with shoes. That we know . . .

Yogeśvara: So there's a purpose . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . that we should not disturb the arrangement of the hospital. We are saner. But you are disturbed, "Oh, so many people are starving. Let me give him some food." Then you are rascal.

Hari-śauri: But why should we be callous to the sufferings of others?

Prabhupāda: Yes! Because the arrangement is there, hospital, he should not have food. Why shall I disturb him? I must be callous. That is intelligence. I know that when the hospital, the doctor's keeping in starvation, it is good for him. Why shall I disturb?

Hari-śauri: So then why do you go to the hospital when you're sick? When you're sick, then why do you take medicine and consult doctor? Why not be callous to that, too?

Prabhupāda: Callous means we . . . callous means we can take treatment, but we cannot protest against the doctor that, "Why you are not giving me food?" We take treatment. That is saner. If the doctors ask me that, "Don't eat," I take the treatment. I don't protest that, "Why you are keeping me in starvation?" You are doing that, rascal that, "Why you are keeping me in starvation?" But one who knows things, he doesn't protest. That is Vaiṣṇava way. Tat te 'nukampāṁ su-samīkṣamāṇaḥ (SB 10.14.8): "Oh, my Lord, You are keeping me in this tribulation. It is Your great mercy." When Kṛṣṇa keeps me in starvation I take it as mercy. I don't protest. That is Vaiṣṇava. The saner person, when he is, the hospital, he is put into starvation, he takes, "Oh, doctor, you are so merciful; you are curing me." And the rascal will protest, "Oh! You are keeping me in starvation?" And other friend comes, "Why you are keeping him . . .?" They're all rascals, all rascals, cent percent. They do not know what is arrangement in the hospital and they go, poke their nose in which is not their business. They are rascal. One who says like that, "We have done this . . ." Oh, you are rascal. You cannot do it. You are simply poking your nose where there is no business for you. A Vaiṣṇava will never protest. Tat te 'nukampām. And Kṛṣṇa said, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. He never said that, "You become agitated." Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha (BG 2.14). "These things have come and gone, will go. Why you are bothered, your brain, about these things?"

Hari-śauri: That may be good advice for a Vaiṣṇava, but what about all the thousands of people who are suffering and not knowing the cause?

Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals! Vaiṣṇava is the only intelligent. Therefore we say rascals, bokā. Therefore their general name is bokā. They do not know things, how it is going on by superior management. Bokā.

Yogeśvara: But we do protest the nonsense of the rascal politicians.

Prabhupāda: You can do it, but you do not know what is the cause and why one is suffering, why . . . these laws you do not know. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). The prakṛti is doing. You are thinking, "Oh, I can do something." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. You are rascal. By false prestige you are thinking that you are so great you can do something beyond God's arrangement. So that is your rascaldom.

Hari-śauri: Then why do we bother to preach? Why not just sit and do our bhajana?

Prabhupāda: We preach that, "Submit to God." That's all. That is my all preaching. We don't say that you protest against the arrangement of God." We don't say. We simply say: "Whatever arrangement God has made, you submit." That's all.

Hari-śauri: "But understand that it is from God."

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Yes. That is our preaching.

Satsvarūpa: And if they submit, they'll never have to suffer again.

Prabhupāda: Again. That's it. That is our proposal. We say: "You rascal, you don't be overintelligent. You submit to God, you'll be happy. Because you cannot become intelligent, you are rascal. So give up this rascaldom, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), whatever you have created, all rascaldom. Simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then you'll be happy. Your science, your politics, your philosophy, your so on, so on, so on—all rascaldom. Sarva-dharmān. You are thinking that we have created so many humanitarianism, this ism, that ism, that. We say these are all rascaldom. The sooner you give up this habit, simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you . . ."

Yogeśvara: So in other words, we're not advocating change of position. Just change of consciousness.

Prabhupāda: There is no change of position. You are rascal. You are thinking there is change of position. There is no change of position. The sun is everlastingly rising from the east. You cannot change that.

Yogeśvara: No, but let us say the people who are in Communist countries . . .

Prabhupāda: You bring any ist. They are all rascals. Take it. Then you are intelligent. You can bring any ism, but they're all rascals. You cannot change the law of nature.

Hari-śauri: If a man is destined to be poor, he'll be poor.

Prabhupāda: You cannot change. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). That is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. That is the false ahaṅkāra. "Oh, I can become. I know something. I have become scientist. I have become politician." That is ahaṅkāra, simply. It is useless. You cannot do anything. Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Understanding the laws of nature and the provider of the laws of nature is necessary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That laws of nature is working. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Huh? Andhā yathāndhair . . . te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Īśa-tantra, by the laws of nature they are tightly, hand and legs are, they are bound up. What they can do? Therefore Kṛṣṇa summarizes all the different types of tribulation. Kṛṣṇa said . . . these all kinds of tribulation is summarized in these four principles—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Bās. You make solution these, first of all. Then talk of all nonsense. You cannot make any solution. There are different types of suffering, but they are all summarized in these four words—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Make solution. This is God's challenge. You are challenging God in His arrangement, and God's challenge is that, "Here are four principles. Do something for these, rascal. Then you talk of solution."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the basic laws of nature, which we cannot alter. We cannot change. It will come sooner or later.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use?

Yogeśvara: But let us say by his karma a man is in a position where he cannot perceive . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the . . . that is in the via media. The real trouble is there—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Now if you can make change . . . suppose you are now a dog. You can become a man. But that is not solution. Or you are man; you can become a demigod. Karma. But that does not make solution. Either you become demigod or man or dog or cat or insect, you must have these tribulations, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). That is God's challenge. You first of all make solution. But you are eternal. Why you are in this condition? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You . . . that means you are eternally suffering, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), simply changing the position. But suffering's there. So you are taking credit by little change of the position. And that is your foolishness. And God challenges you, "You make solution of these things." Why little change? Suppose I am . . . I have got so many centers. Sometimes I live in the palace, other in a cottage. So this is change of position, but I am the same man. So whatever comfort or discomfort is there in that your France palace, the same comfort and discomfort is in this cottage. But if I think, "Now I am in the France palace, or Bhaktivedanta Manor palace. I am happy," that is foolishness. They are doing that. You are eating something bitter. So it is in the iron pot. You are thinking, "If I put it in the golden pot, it will be nice." That is your foolishness. The taste, either you put in the golden pot or iron pot or in the floor, the taste is the same. So our taste is this eating, sleeping, sex and defense. So that is going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have an example in our this article about this, about the laws of karma and the living entities. So we use this pig. So we say that . . .

Prabhupāda: Laws of karma is simply change of body, deha upapatti (SB 3.31.1). The same process: to put the same eatable from iron pot to golden pot or from golden pot to another pot. This is law of karma. But the taste is not changed. The bitter taste is there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. That these rascals, they do not understand. The Einstein, he gave so many improvement of life, but he is dying. He's tasting the same bitterness as a dog is tasting. Therefore we do not give any position better than the dog. Why you are dying? Why you cannot change this taste? Stop this. Then you are scientist.

Hari-śauri: He died in a leper colony, didn't he?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, he died.

Hari-śauri: He went to help some lepers. He went to do some work in the leper colony at the end of his life, trying to save them.

Prabhupāda: That is another imagination, as if by leper colony he'll stop his death. It is not possible. The real solution, real problem, is this, that "Why you are dying?" Stop this.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science, in principle, is also aiming for two things. One is to understand the nature of the Absolute. Indirectly or to some degree, science is aiming at that, too, plus to solve the problems of life. These two . . .

Prabhupāda: The problems of life is birth, death, old age, disease. That they cannot see. Real problem is this.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like trying to relieve from, like, my cold or some sort of physical suffering.

Prabhupāda: That is temporary. That is temporary. That I can change without your scientific help. Now you have discovered this sweater. I can go to the sunshine, and it will be all right. I don't require. Nature's arrangement is already there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's true. But still, people like to be happy.

Prabhupāda: No, no, where is happiness? That is our misunderstanding. If you have to die, if you have to suffer from disease, if you have to become old . . . just like I am old. I have got so many inconvenience. You are young man. I feel that you are so in convenient position. I was also young man. So how can I check it? I may be spiritual master of so many young men, you are trying to give me all comfort, but because I have got this body, old body, I am suffering. How you can relieve it?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Those who know . . . those who know about the real nature of this knowledge, they understand. But those . . . just like scientists, they are thinking that they will be able to solve some . . .

Prabhupāda: And therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. They're thinking wrongly. It is not possible for you. Actual suffering, I am. You are scientist. But can you give me relief from my old age?

Yogeśvara: No, that's what they want. They want to make it less painful. They want to make old age less painful, less debilitating, so that old people can be more productive and engage in more activity.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is another side. I mean to say so far the body is concerned, I am suffering due to old age. You are scientist. You are European. You are American. Can you give me any relief? You have the idea, "To keep our spiritual master in perfect comfort," but you cannot do it because due to my old age. You may try your best, but it is impossible for you.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is beyond our . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah! That is . . . that we should admit. That is . . . that is intelligence. Therefore we should try for relief if there is actually any relief. That relief is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Kṛṣṇa says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Now, whatever suffering's there, up to this point . . . next you are not going to accept this material body. And that is solution. Mām eti. As soon as you go back to home, everything is solved. That we have to establish. We are not presenting all rascaldom. Here is the solution that, "This life, whatever you are suffering or enjoying, that is temporary. Āgamāpāyinaḥ. It comes and goes. Don't bother. Be Kṛṣṇa conscious and solve all the problems." This is our point.

Pṛthu-putra: But if they accept, do we have program?

Prabhupāda: If they accept, let them suffer. But our propaganda is "You accept it."

Pṛthu-putra: But if they accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness, do we have program to dovetail the propensities of being scientists or politicians? If, for example, they accept to understand Kṛṣṇa and they accept from Kṛṣṇa conscious . . .

Prabhupāda: Then we do not bother about the scientist.

Pṛthu-putra: Still, the tendency is there.

Prabhupāda: Dependency, that is . . . we are practiced. Suppose you have given this motorcar, but it doesn't mean that if there is no motorcar my Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be checked. If there is little facility, we can take it. That is another thing. But it is not that because there is no motorcar, then there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is not like that. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be checked by any impediment. That cannot be checked. So we are not dependent. But to make the best use of a bad bargain. If we get some facility, why we should not take? We are not so fool. If I get a motorcar to go somewhere, why shall I walk? That is another foolishness. But we are not dependent on the motor . . . "Because there is no motorcar, therefore my Kṛṣṇa consciousness stopped." We are not such fools. The motorcar is available; all right, take advantage of it. We don't decline to accept whatever little material facilities are there. That is not foolish . . . that is foolishness. We can take advantage. But our main business is how to make advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Not that we are suffering in this material world, and because we have got this motorcar, therefore our suffering is now ended. We are not so fool. We can take advantage of the motorcar, but we don't take that, "This is the solution." We are not so fool. But these rascals, they are taking, "This is the solution." That is not possible. That is called durāśaya. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are thinking that, "Material adjustment, we shall be happy." That is durāśaya. It will never be fulfilled. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum. They do not know. Unless we go back home, back to Godhead, there is no solution. This is not solution. This is durāśaya. Everything is described. Durāśaya means the hope which will never be successful. So these rascals, they are trying to be happy by so-called scientific advancement. That is durāśaya. Not possible. Hopeless.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday, when I came from Manipur, there was one Bengali engineer, civil engineer, who was working in Manipur, Mr. P. K. Sanyal.

Prabhupāda: Hari-śauri? You close this part of the door. Yes. That's all. That's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mr. P. K. Sanyal from Ballygange.

Prabhupāda: P. K. Shah?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sanyal. Sanyal. He's in late sixties or early seventies, very old. We became very good friends. He's a very nice man.

Prabhupāda: On the plane?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the plane. When I went also, we were in the same plane, because he was making a bridge in Manipur. So he invited me to come to his place in Calcutta, in Ballygange. When also I came back we were in the same plane. It just happened. So he started talking me that he lost about forty thousand rupees, because bridge was broken, and so he said he was feeling very bad, very sad. And he was telling me all stories about "Whether I should prepare my life for the future, or whether I should wind up," as he is. Then I started talking about that we always want to be happy, but somehow we misunderstand about our basic position, what position we shall take up, whether . . . he said he has great difficulty in making decisions, "Whether I shall decide this," so many problems, not knowing what to decide. So we started talking about the real nature of knowledge. The real knowledge is to understand the real difference between this life and matter—the fundamental principle of knowledge.

Prabhupāda: This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda:

mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ

jīva-loke sanātanaḥ

manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi

prakṛti-sthāni karṣati

(BG 15.7)

This is our position, that I am part and parcel of God. God is happy, ānanda-maya. So part and parcel should be ānanda-maya. But, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. I have come to this material world. I am creating so many isms by the mind and acting with the senses, and there is struggle. This is the . . . everything is there. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). Prakṛti-sthāni, being placed in this material atmosphere, he's simply struggling. Therefore we are giving the solution, "You give up this struggle. Go back to home, back to Godhead." Everything is . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the basic point that I was driving at, that we shouldn't be too much entangled in this material . . .

Prabhupāda: They must be entangled. They are trying in the false way, wrong way. He is suffering on account of being placed in this material atmosphere, and he's trying to adjust things with this material . . . that means he's becoming more and more entangled. Sometimes we have seen a fly falls down in the bee honey and he becomes entangled. So how it will be possible to become free and again fly unless he's taken and washed all these dirty things for him? Then he can fly. Freedom. And so long he'll try to adjust things in the prakṛti-sthāni, that is nonsense, all nonsense.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And while talking, all of a sudden there was a very big bumping in the plane, so everyone was afraid just before we reached Calcutta. So then I mentioned that every moment we are in danger.

Prabhupāda: Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām (SB 10.14.58). Every step there is danger. The other day in Bombay there was accident. Just going up, and so many persons died immediately, ninety persons. Immediately. What is the . . .?

Yogeśvara: In Bangkok just before we came, just a few days before, a big 747 had crashed.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? So many persons died?

Yogeśvara: So many people dead. Just before we arrived.

Prabhupāda: Just see. So you have discovered such thing that any moment you can die, every one. So therefore this is problem.

Hari-śauri: When we just drove down the road just now, when we went past, we saw some people holding a woman, and she was screaming and foaming at the mouth. Just further down the road there was the body of her husband on the road. He'd been squashed flat by a truck, and the body was still there. And the head . . . head and arms . . .

Prabhupāda: Only danger. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām (SB 10.14.58). Every step, simply danger, and we are proud of our scientific advancement. The aeroplane is scientific advancement, but the danger is also more. As soon as you crash, all are altogether . . . without an aeroplane one or two men could die, but because you have made this scientific advancement, you all die.

Hari-śauri: Hundred at a time. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Hundred.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Together.

Prabhupāda: This is your advancement. (laughs) Every line of action you see, you have created greatest danger. No solution. Solution is not there, but you have created greater danger. That is your credit.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was very impressed. He can become Life Member. Very, very nice man. Very old. And he said his children are in United States and he has everything he has. Very rich also.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you ask him to come? He's rich. Ask him to come, live with us in Māyāpur, and rest of the life let him become happy. Why he's after money?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said his aim is to make as many bridges as possible. Some sort of, er . . . he's thinks that's some sort of philanthropic work.

Prabhupāda: This is māyā. This is māyā. What he can do? He will die. This is called māyā. Therefore our system is because you are rascal, do all rascaldom up to fiftieth year. Then give it up. All kinds of rascaldom you can continue. Pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet. Then you retire from all this rascal work.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still, we don't know we'll live for fifty years.

Prabhupāda: That is another difficulty. For general calculation a man can live up to a hundred years in this age. So in the middle, stop all rascaldom—compulsory. Now take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because you are persistent to continue your rascaldom, all right, do it up to this point. And then stop all this. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is concession for continuing the rascaldom. But if he's so fool that he will continue the rascaldom as Jawaharlal Nehru did and Gandhi did and Hitler did and—up to the point of death—let him do. What can be done? They will continue their rascaldom. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Gandhi, unless he was killed by his own men, he did not retire. Jawaharlal Nehru, when he was just . . . there is no other way. He was in Dehradun, still Prime Minister, and he was brought very quickly from Dehradun to Delhi, and after one hour he died. All these politicians. And it is learned that he has become a dog in Scandinavia. You cannot say, "No," because you do not know what he has become. But tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. He must have changed the body. So where is your science? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). The prakṛti will change your body. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). And He's giving vivid example: dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. And Kṛṣṇa is speaking. I shall not believe in Kṛṣṇa's word, and I shall go to some rascal? We are not so fool. Fools are bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). "Oh, we are making this advancement. We will do in the future. We'll do." These are the business of the fools and rascals, not intelligent, which will never be successful. Durāśaya. But they'll stick to that false hope. Kṛṣṇa yei, bhaje sei baḍa catura: "One who takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very intelligent." Actually that is the fact. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151). All the . . . there are many rascals, and they are under the laws of nature, wandering in this material world in different forms of life. So out of many such millions and millions, if one is fortunate, guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja: he enters into Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Yogeśvara: By the mercy of the guru.

Prabhupāda: Guru and Kṛṣṇa, both. Unless Kṛṣṇa is also merciful—guru says something; Kṛṣṇa is within; if he says: "Yes, you accept this"—we cannot accept.

Yogeśvara: Causeless mercy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru's business is on behalf of Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa comes, causeless mercy, the guru is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's business. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati (BG 18.68). Faithful servant of Kṛṣṇa. And guru means faithful servant of the Lord. That is guru. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās. You become guru, faithful servant. Don't make any change. That is guru. Guru . . . to become guru is not difficult thing. But the rascals will not do. He'll manufacture his own words. He is more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. He'll give another interpretation, another, "Take this." Take photograph with Bhagavad-gītā and talk all nonsense.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We live on the mercy and the guidance of the guru every moment.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) So this is para-upakāra. People are in so darkness. So give them some knowledge as far as possible. This is real para-upakāra, doing welfare work, to give Kṛṣṇa. He is scientist. He is trying to give among the scientists, because his jugglery of words will counteract their jugglery of words. But our aim is very nice: that the rascal may be educated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you are expecting some success?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah . . . yes, by your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: At least they are trying to understand.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That lecture that I gave, we made . . . Sadāpūta made that design so it's very attractive to science. That's from our Back to Godhead photograph. Fixed it up.

Prabhupāda: If they simply understand that all these laws of nature is going on under the direction of God . . . they are studying the laws of nature, how things are happening. But simply they have to understand that it is under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.

Yogeśvara: Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ (BG 9.10).

Prabhupāda: Mayādhyakṣeṇa. They are lacking that intelligence. They are finding out that, "Things are moving so, mean, accurately. There must be somebody behind it." Do you think like that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: When you see the nature's law is working so accurately, so don't you think that there is some brain behind it?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There must be.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Einstein admitted that. That is real scientific brain. And so nicely it is going on without any brain behind it? How it can go so nice? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. That brain is Kṛṣṇa. That they do not know. Now our business is, "Here is the brain. If you take it, you benefit it. What you are actually searching, here is." Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Hmm? Find out this verse, mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam.

Hari-śauri: Even for a crude machine, it requires some intelligence to construct a design.

Prabhupāda: Anything you take, it requires intelligence.

Hari-śauri: Everything.

Prabhupāda: Just like you have made this garland. Somebody intelligent has decorated. So who has made it? That they have no intelligence. They decorate this garland, one red flower and yellow flower, make it very attractive, but who has made this flower? That they have no intelligence. And that is answered: mām ebhyaḥ param, mūḍho nābhijānāti. I am trying to taking the flower to make it more beautiful by setting them in this way, but who has made this beautiful flower? Whose brain is there? And that is explained there.

Yogeśvara:

nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya

yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ

mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti

loko mām ajam avyayam

(BG 7.25)

"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yogamāyā, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."

Prabhupāda: That is it. So I am setting up the flower, but who has made this flower? That is . . . I do not know. But somebody has made. You have to accept. Because you are somebody, you are trying to make more beautiful by setting up the different flowers, so who has made the flower? That is intelligence. But mūḍho nābhijānāti. The rascals, they do not.

Yogeśvara: They're not interested to know.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: They have no interest to know.

Prabhupāda: That means more rascaldom. That is intelligence that, "I am trying to make the flowers more beautiful by setting up in this way, then who has made these beautiful flowers?" That is intelligence. There must be some brain. That is intelligence. That is philosophy. Philosophy means to search out the ultimate.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Absolute truth.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This is philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is philosophy. Philosophy is the science of science. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (BS 5.1). The science of science.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(BS 5.1)

So try it, to educate these rascal, world of rascals. Take it that this world of rascals. Don't give them any credit. Unless he's Kṛṣṇa conscious, don't give any credit. Then you become a rascal. Just like the same example as it is given in the Bhāgavata, that one dog, one camel, one ass, one hog is praising a lion. So does it mean the lion is not animal? He may be a big, rascal animal, and he is praised by these small rascals. So here the big rascal is being praised by small rascal. That's all. But they all rascals. We are seeing the praising group and the man who is praised—both of them are rascals. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). We don't give them any credit. They may be angry upon us that we do not give anyone credit, (chuckles) but that is our business. We take them all rascals, set of rascals. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvataḥ (SB 5.18.12). (pause).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have formed this Bhaktivedanta Institute, and we had a meeting in Washington.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Where is my spectacle?

Hari-śauri: On this table.

Prabhupāda: So now your, that immigration problem is solved.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Now, where you desire to keep a permanent office or a location of this Bhaktivedanta Institute?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are trying to locate a place. Rūpānuga suggests that Washington . . .

Prabhupāda: Base.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . temple. And . . .

Prabhupāda: But you have got enough place there?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And Boston is also a good place. Right beside the temple, I think there's a . . . (break) (end)