740217 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740217MW-BOMBAY - February 17, 1974 - 48:41 Minutes

Yaśomatīnandana: . . . everybody saw Kṛṣṇa and the people knew . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughter) Right, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: His father could not. His father could not.

Yaśomatīnandana: My father couldn't know Him.

Yadubara: Hiraṇyakaśipu. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Prahlāda's father, he could not see. But Prahlāda sees.

Dr. Patel: I think greatest bhakta was Prahlāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I read it, this in this . . .

Yaśomatīnandana: So it does not matter whether one is baby or one is a big man.

Dr. Patel: It's just a joke . . . (indistinct) . . . because . . .

Prabhupāda: Ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6).

Dr. Patel: I mean, all-powerful God can be anything. God can assume form, God can remain formless. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . by . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vallabhācārya himself.

Prabhupāda: It is recorded in the court. There was a court case, and it was found that Gopālajī belongs to the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh. Who . . . who was pressing the court case?

Prabhupāda: It was amongst themselves.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To see who should get the right to worship.

Prabhupāda: In Delhi there is a lawyer. He told me. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It would be really wonderful if Sumatiben would decide to support our temple, because the entire Gujarati community of Bombay follows her direction. They really do, especially in these matters. And she is known to be the chairman of . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: (to Dr. Patel) You are śānta-bhakta.

Dr. Patel: Am I?

Prabhupāda: Śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vātsalya and mādhurya.

Dr. Patel: Mādhurya-bhakta is the best. Like gopīs. But that is very difficult to be.

Prabhupāda: No, best . . . it is just one's conception, you see? Otherwise, all are best. All are best. But śānta-bhakta do not take Kṛṣṇa very intimately.

Dr. Patel: (laughs) You are . . . you take me below the belt.

Prabhupāda: Yes, śānta-bhakta means the bhakta who appreciates the greatness of the Supreme but does not take Kṛṣṇa as very intimate. That is śānta-bhakta.

Dr. Patel: How can, ah, can you imagine of God without taking Him very intimately? These are two, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like . . . intimately . . . just like I can give this example, that you have got a great regard for me, but not as intimately as my other disciples.

Dr. Patel: Ah, that is possible. Because I am . . . I have not put on the order clothes.

Prabhupāda: This example is, I think, proper.

Dr. Patel: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed their life for me.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: But you have got regard for me, but you cannot sacrifice your life for me.

Dr. Patel: You are trying to tempt me, sir, but I don't think it will be easy for them. I will not be turned away. I've got my duty to do toward my family. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is . . . this is the stage of śānta-bhakta. I am explaining. Śānta-bhakta.

Dr. Patel: I can understand you. You . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No, no, it is according to śāstra, śānta. There are the different types of mellows, variety of mellows. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Śānta, dāsya, sākhya . . . I do not say that you become my disciple. I don't say that.

Dr. Patel: I am your disciple in all respects. I should not put on your . . . these clothes and come and do all the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is not our program. That is not our program. We do not ask anyone to change his cloth. Never. I never ask them to change his cloth or change his position. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy.

Dr. Patel: That's right. We, we always . . . we always consider a guru in the form of God. God comes to you in the form of a guru.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . that we also accept.

Dr. Patel: And that is the way I was . . . I mean, I love you, treat you as such and worship you.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And if you think it is any other form, I have no objection, whatever bhāva you may call it. What is the matter?

Prabhupāda: No, I am speaking on the principle of śāstra. Śānta-bhakta, dāsya-bhakta, sākhya-bhakta, vātsalya-bhakta, mādhurya-bhakta.

Dr. Patel: You see, I can . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not that mādhurya-bhakta is greater than the dāsya-bhakta. The example has been given, just like sound. Sound is generated from the ether, sky. You are scientific man. You will understand.

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: But that sound is existing in all other five elements . . . four elements.

Dr. Patel: Right.

Prabhupāda: The sound is not only in the ether, but sound is on the air. The sound is in the fire, the sound is also in the water, and sound is also on the land. So the basic principle of śānta-rasa is there.

Dr. Patel: In all of them.

Prabhupāda: All of them. But according to the position, it is more developed.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You see? In the earth, this sound is very . . . just like you take any earthly object, metal. The sound is very strong there. Is it not?

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like water, there is sound. But that sound and metallic sound are different. Sound is there, but the sound of the water and sound of the metal—in the metal the sound is more prominent than in the water. But the sound is there. Similarly . . .

Dr. Patel: Love is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, love is there.

Dr. Patel: But there is more close love.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. More developed. Yes. In the śānta-rasa, simply this appreciation of the greatness of the Absolute. That is śānta-rasa.

Dr. Patel: Once upon a time the scientists of the world had considered this religion, belief in God, to be bosh. Now the scientists have started thinking, and thinking very rightly that there is nothing else but God, as you have said. That is the greatest thing that they are doing today.

Prabhupāda: Yes, so that I am explaining. The sound is there. God consciousness is there, sound as the God consciousness, but in different phases the development is there differently. That is the principle. Everyone has got God consciousness. There is no doubt about it.

Dr. Patel: We come to you, sir, to serve your disciples in the best way we can do, because to serve a disciple is to serve God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then that means it is being developed. That śānta-rasa is being developed to dāsya-rasa.

Dr. Patel: But sometimes disciples don't like our service. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No, they are children. They are children. You see, they are coming from foreign countries. They are being trained up. There may be some deficiencies, but this is the scientific progress. When from śānta-rasa one develops dāsya-rasa, wants to give some service, there is further development. Then further service, not as ordinary service, but as intimate friend. Then as paternal, then conjugal. These are the different developments. The principle is there, śānta-rasa, but they are manifested in different stages of development.

Dr. Patel: So that the seed has grown into a small . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . jungle, or whatever you want to say.

Prabhupāda: Then when it is sprouted, then active service. That is dāsya-rasa.

Dr. Patel: This is, in the very, I mean, very, the early preaching of all our Vaiṣṇava families . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . that all sannyāsīs and sādhus must be treated very well . . .

Prabhupāda: The sannyāsīs and sādhus, they are on the śānta-rasa, as you are. Yes, śānta-rasa, appreciating the greatness of the Supreme Absolute Truth. That is śānta-rasa. Brahman, Paramātmā. The Brahman feature of the Lord, all-pervading . . . sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1), that appreciation, that is śānta-rasa. Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). This is also śānta-rasa.

Dr. Patel: Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61).

Prabhupāda: Hah. So this realization of the Absolute Truth is called śānta-rasa. And when it is further developed, then dāsya-rasa.

Dr. Patel: No, these boys must develop friendship with me, that's all.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: (laughing) I am in a way joking sometimes to them, and they take me very seriously.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. (to devotees) Don't take serious. Treat him as your father or grandfather. He's our great well-wisher, and he's a śānta-rasa devotee. (to Dr. Patel) Now, I shall request you one thing. The . . . during ārātrika time, hundreds of children come to us. I give little prasādam. You have seen it?

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They are very interested in dance and . . . now, I wish that they may be given sumptuous food and dress.

Dr. Patel: Yes, dress. I also thought of that. Some of them are very badly dressed, poor people . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, if they come, "All right, come here. Just take your bath, be cleansed, tilaka, and a nice dress," and giving them some food. You see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every day they can put on their nice clothes for the Deity.

Prabhupāda: Yes, because their father, mother, neither they do know how to take care of the children, but they come to us. We should take care of them.

Dr. Patel: This is just like those Christian missions, we must . . .

Prabhupāda: Any one . . .

Dr. Patel: I think, I think we must do that. Then we will be able to propagate.

Prabhupāda: Not with that purpose. Here is a poor child. He comes automatically to dance. So we should take care of them.

Dr. Patel: Yes, I have thought of it long ago.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: We must collect some funds and buy some ready-made clothes, keep them ready and present them.

Prabhupāda: So from śānta-rasa we can begin this dāsya-rasa. Yes. Instead of taking care of them, you please kindly take up these poor children.

Dr. Patel: Yes, you see, my wife used to take care of more than hundred children in the schools, giving them fees, giving them notes, pencils and clothing and . . .

Prabhupāda: A little more, little more.

Dr. Patel: She was doing it, but I am not she. She was a multi-millionaire's daughter, I am a poor man's son.

Prabhupāda: But you are not poor man.

Dr. Patel: She had that training from her young days of her father as a billionaire. But I am a extremely poor man.

Prabhupāda: But you are the husband of millionaire's daughter.

Dr. Patel: She's dead now. She has got no . . . she had a grip on me when she was living. I am now a vagabond in her absence. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of you or she. I am just pointing out.

Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I will try. I have taken your this thing to my heart. I will try to collect some fund and get some clothing, those ready-made ones.

Prabhupāda: So one day a tailors may be brought and take their measurement.

Dr. Patel: But ready-made is thereof. Get different sizes.

Prabhupāda: Or ready-made. Ready-made. So in the evening they should come, they should take bath, be cleansed, and give dress. Next day when they come, change the dress. Let them be habituated. They are coming . . .

Dr. Patel: In cleanliness, you give them impression of cleanliness.

Prabhupāda: . . . voluntarily, to dance, to take prasādam. So why should you not take care of them? This is my point. Yes. We don't make distinction whether they are coming from Christian or Hindu or . . .

Dr. Patel: No, no, no, no. Man is a man. I mean those Christians think that we are Hindus and they are Christian. We don't think, because in Hinduism or in actually Vedic religion everyone is created one.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I am in fact, when I go near . . .

Prabhupāda: Our, our, our mantra is sarve sukhino bhavantu.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: Sarve sukhina . . . everyone be happy. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We want to see everyone to be happy. That's all.

Dr. Patel: I, but, this is naturally me, if I see, of course . . . then naturally . . . the great Jesus Christ, great bhakta of God. (some other men talking in background) But Christians, they have, they are . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. These, they may be low grade. They may be inferior. But if we are superior, we must act as superior.

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupāda: That is our movement.

Dr. Patel: Your religion is extremely catholic.

Prabhupāda: Our catholic Kṛṣṇa consciousness—Kṛṣṇa says sarva-yoniṣu. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ (BG 14.4): "Any form of life, that is, I am the seed-giving father."

Dr. Patel: That's right, sir.

Prabhupāda: And how lovingly they come to take little prasādam. I was thinking that . . .

Dr. Patel: We must do something. I have been observing this, myself, the same thing . . .

Prabhupāda: How with great love they offer me obeisances, touch my feet, and a little fruit or little, whatever I give, they are satisfied. So they are so friendly because they are innocent. They do not know what is this "Hindu," "Christian." So we must take care of them.

Guest (1): Some of those childrens are Christians.

Prabhupāda: Never mind Christian, Hindu, Muslim. A Christian or a . . . if we offer them nice food and nice dress, nobody will deny.

Dr. Patel: But these Hindus became Christians because they were offered nice food and dress by Christian missionaries.

Prabhupāda: No, our point is not that, just to bring them and proselytize them to Hinduism. No. Take prasādam, take dress, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance. That's all. I never said to all these European and American disciples that, "You become a Hindu." I never said. Ask them. I never said.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither we would have agreed.

Prabhupāda: Why shall I ask them to be . . .? I asked them, "Just become lover of God. That's all. If you can love God through your religion, that's all right. You do that." I say that. I never said that, "You become Hindu." Then I would not have been able to . . .

Dr. Patel: I think that they must understand, sir, that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion. Religion is a Vedic religion, which is common to Christianity. I would say that Jesus Christ has taught the Vedic religion to the Middle East and to the heathens, and he was crucified because the heathens were not able to understand him properly. That is what my, I mean, convictions, strong conviction is that Jesus had actually preached Hinduism, I mean Vedic religion there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he was . . .

Dr. Patel: And all religions are in fact Vedic.

Prabhupāda: He was educated of his spiritual life in India. Twelve years he was. Twelve years he was. And he lived in Jagannātha temple.

Dr. Patel: Yesterday I found out a very good article. I have preserved it for you. I have forgot to bring it. I'll bring it in the afternoon, from Journal, how where he stayed and how he was in India in Himalayas. Some man has made a research. Some Russian scholar has made a research for forty years, in various places, and found out from various libraries the all, the old records.

Prabhupāda: There was once a historian report that after crucification he did not die. He . . .

Dr. Patel: He did not die. He was in samādhi.

Prabhupāda: He came in India and . . .

Dr. Patel: Lived somewhere in Kashmir. That is what I have in article. He lived for a very long time after crucifixion. In crucifixion he went into great samādhi, and when the cross was brought down, he came out of samādhi after three days. That is the resurrection.

Prabhupāda: He was . . . yes.

Dr. Patel: And then he was brought back by his disciples to India.

Prabhupāda: That is quite possible.

Dr. Patel: There is a big community called Issans, and Issans are somewhere in between Tigris and that Doab, you know, Tigris and Euphrates rivers. From there he migrated to this Palestine area and preached those fellows all the philosophy that he learned in India. That is . . . that man has said. So I consider Christianity is a part of . . . one of the pañca of Hindu . . . of the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Christianity is Vaiṣṇavism.

Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇavism. Absolutely Vaiṣṇavism.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who . . . Muhammadan is also Vaiṣṇavism.

Dr. Patel: Muhammadanism is not Vaiṣṇavism. They have studied the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Caitanya Mahāprabhu had talk with the Pathans. He proved that, "Your religion is Vaiṣṇavism."

Dr. Patel: Christianity is Vaiṣṇavism hundred percent.

Prabhupāda: Therefore in Caitanya-caritāmṛta there is. I have already explained that.

Dr. Patel: No, Christianity is hundred percent Vaiṣṇavism. I have studied Christianity very well.

Prabhupāda: Not hundred percent, but . . .

Dr. Patel: More or less.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because I have studied the whole of Bible, whole of New Testament and Genesis and everything very well, just as I have studied the Upaniṣads. And I have come to realize that Jesus has taught Vedic religion in total, and Christ was nothing but a great saint of ancient Vedic religion. That is my conjecture, my conviction. They may think anything else.

Prabhupāda: His commandments proved that. He said: "Thou shall not kill."

Dr. Patel: "Thou shall not kill."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is ahiṁsā, first principle.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: You see, abhayaṁ sattva-saṁśuddhir (BG 16.1). First thing is abhaya. Abhaya-dāna, when you give, it is the greatest dāna. That is the first principle of all the religions, and that is the religion Christ taught there. The Middle East people and the Europeans had no, what we call . . . sort of a . . . saṁskāra. Those people were very backwards two thousand years back. Because of the climatic conditions.

Prabhupāda: No, from the first commandment it appears that they were not very enlightened, because why does he say: "Thou shall not kill"? That means they were killers.

Dr. Patel: They were killing. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: They were killers.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they would not have said: "Thou shall not kill."

Prabhupāda: Why the first commandment is there, "Thou shall not kill"? They were fighting and killing amongst themselves. Not very advanced nation. And he was horrified when he saw that the Jews were killing animals.

Dr. Patel: In the temple.

Prabhupāda: In the temple.

Dr. Patel: Not only that. They were, I mean, doing all that money-changing and taking bribes and all that. I think he . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, that is professional . . . it is not very . . . so everyone takes bribe and everyone is interested in money than anything. That is not very great fault. You see? When you are in the material world, you require money. That is fact.

Dr. Patel: They were not able to understand that he is going to raise another temple. Another temple . . . that is how the Jews they're against him. I think . . . that is what my conjection, no? Another temple means another creed of . . .

Prabhupāda: This is "against" or "for," this so-called "against" or "for," it has no meaning. You see? Just like children fight, sometimes against, sometimes for. So it has no meaning. Unless one is raised in the spiritual consciousness, this so-called goodness and badness has no meaning. Caitanya-caritāmṛta-kar says, dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali samāna: "In the material atmosphere, the so-called goodness and so-called badness, they're all the same, simply a different type of mental concoction." That's all.

Dr. Patel: If nothing but God exists, then bad thing is also God and good thing is also God. That that . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore that God realization is real good thing.

Dr. Patel: Real good thing.

Prabhupāda: Not this, "This is good; this is bad." That is relative world. You'll find everywhere something good.

Dr. Patel: Good and bad are the bhukti-yoga citta.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Then you make citta-bhukti nirodha . . . (indistinct) . . . yoga, and that nirodha, yoga, again that vacuum should not be allowed to be formed, but it should be filled with the, with God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: That is bhakti. Am I right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I think my understanding is not . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I want to be corrected by you.

Prabhupāda: I have already told you, you are śānta-rasa bhakta. (break) . . . originally, as spirit soul, everyone is Vaiṣṇava. Everyone is Vaiṣṇava.

Dr. Patel: No, but by, by, by saṁskāras, birth. Our saṁskāra, Vaiṣṇava saṁskāra. Whole community of us. (pause)

Prabhupāda: So why you are becoming ex-community?

Dr. Patel: I am . . . no. That is not . . . there is only one community, and that is of humanity. Now all . . . (indistinct) . . . the animal communities are there.

Prabhupāda: So that is also another community. If you take simply humanity, that is another community.

Dr. Patel: Then all communities are including . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you should neglect the animal community?

Dr. Patel: That's right. That is right.

Prabhupāda: That is also community.

Dr. Patel: That is why twenty-four avatāras have been shown to us in Bhāgavata, from fish to the highest.

Prabhupāda: Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). If one is paṇḍita, he does not make any distinction between animal community and human community.

Dr. Patel: Śuni caiva śva-pāke ca.

Prabhupāda: Ah, that is paṇḍita. As soon as you see, "This is animal community, this is human community," then you are not paṇḍita. You are still in . . . require learning. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54).

Dr. Patel: Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām.

Prabhupāda: That is real vision.

Dr. Patel: (Gujrati) He is agreeing to start a school for you in Sanskrit and Hindi. Eh?

Girirāja: Yes. We also agree.

Dr. Patel: So find out men, so long that Mahārāja sāhib is here.

Prabhupāda: (to passerby) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Girirāja: One man is coming today.

Dr. Patel: Then let him start, right earnest, and I will be the student along with him. I want to replace my all Sanskrit knowledge.

Prabhupāda: No, Sanskrit knowledge, whatever you have got, that is sufficient for understanding. We don't require to be a Sanskrit scholar.

Dr. Patel: No, I don't want to be scholar. I want to learn all the ancient literatures. Bhakta does not want to learn even, but I am a little of that temperament. Whole day I pass my time in reading only, practically.

Prabhupāda: So bhakti is jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (CC Madhya 19.167). When we'll not try to become a jñānī, then you'll come to the stage of bhakti.

Dr. Patel: I don't mind, but let me . . .

Prabhupāda: So long, so long you . . .

Dr. Patel: I don't want to remain ajñānī.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Bhaktas are not ajñānī.

Dr. Patel: Myself. I don't talk of the others.

Prabhupāda: No, no, yourself also. Bhaktas, they're not ajñānī. That is rascaldom. If says the bhaktas are ajñānī, that is rascaldom, because Kṛṣṇa says, teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ, nāśayāmi (BG 10.11). If Kṛṣṇa helps him to become jñānī, then how he's ajñānī? It is a ignorance, they say bhaktas are not jñānīs. Without jñāna, there is no question of bhakta. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā (SB 1.2.12). Bhakta means he's already qualified with jñāna and vairāgya. That is bhakta.

vāsudeve bhagavati

bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ

janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ

jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam

(SB 1.2.7)

It is a mistaken idea, the bhaktas are not very advanced in knowledge.

Dr. Patel: Bhaktas are . . .

Prabhupāda: They have got real knowledge. They have got real knowledge. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). When they have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, they are really jñānī.

Dr. Patel: But some of the absolutely ignorant people, they have become, but . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We don't say, we don't speak of "some." This is the, yes, there are many . . .

Dr. Patel: Extremely scholastic they have become afterward. Even though they have not gone to the school.

Prabhupāda: Just like Jīva Gosvāmī. Jīva Gosvāmī, there is no comparison of learned scholarship with him throughout the whole world. He's such a jñānī. Even great, great paṇḍitas said that, "There will be no more such learned philosopher, neither there was, like Jīva Gosvāmī." Yes. We are also referring to Jīva Gosvāmī.

Dr. Patel: I, I, I . . . I also refer. I want to read. I want to read his books.

Prabhupāda: So in our Gauḍīya-vaiṣṇava-sampradāya there are so many learned scholars. Just like my Guru Mahārāja.

Dr. Patel: But a Sanskrit . . . I tell you, the Bengalis are the great scholars all round, in all respects.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: And we are your followers, Gujaratis. In fact, in India, next to Bengal comes Gujarati in scholarship. And Maharashtra first.

Prabhupāda: No, your Gokhale said: "What Bengal thinks today, others will think tomorrow."

Dr. Patel: That's right. Even in Mara-mari (fighting) also, you think only . . . (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually, this independence movement was started from Bengal. Partition of Bengal, and the movement started, Surendranath Banerjee. Gandhi admitted, "The father of nation is Surendranath Banerjee." Yes. And later on, actually, if you don't take other, the independence came through a Bengali, Subash Chandra Bose.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Mr. Sar: Right.

Dr. Patel: Not even . . . philosophy also. Gaurapāda, the grandsire of Śaṅkarapāda. Gaurapāda, Gaurapāda was, he's Govindapāda, and Govindapāda is Śaṅkarācārya. So that also you will see that Śaṅkara's greatest sire was a Bengali gentleman.

Prabhupāda: Now taking too much, too much taking in political part. Aurobindo, Aurobindo, he was a politician.

Dr. Patel: Great politician. He was a humanist also.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but he left. "This is no good. I must take to yoga practice."

Dr. Patel: No man can become like an Aurobindo again. Very great man. A politician, a saint and what not. And a great rushi. He is a rushi. I consider him as a rushi.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Dr. Patel: Aurobindo.

Prabhupāda: Rushi?

Dr. Patel: He is a modern rushi.

Prabhupāda: What is that rushi?

Dr. Patel: Rushi . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, ṛṣi, yes.

Dr. Patel: You call it "ṛṣi", we call it "rushi." That is the difference in pronunciation.

Prabhupāda: Just like the Oriyas, they call "Krushna."

Dr. Patel: "Krushna," yes. They cannot even say Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They cannot say "Kṛṣṇa"; they say "Krushna."

Dr. Patel: We call "Kreshna." We call "Kreshna," you call "Kṛṣṇa," they call "Krushna." These are different . . . we call "rushi."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāva-grāhi janārdana. But Kṛṣṇa can understand who is asking for Him. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: All languages He understands. All languages are from oṁ, and oṁ is God. So all languages are God. Look at my arguments. Am I right or wrong?

Prabhupāda: Why you are wrong? Kṛṣṇa says, oṁkāra sarva-vedeṣu: "I am oṁkāra sarva-vedeṣu." (break) . . . mental concoction.

Dr. Patel: Is a body.

Prabhupāda: Anyone who has got this material body, he is not well. He may be possessing very stout and strong body, but he's not well, because death is there. So well or no well, you have to meet death. So where is . . . where is the use of your . . .

Dr. Patel: What is this death? If you say: "You meet death," then you are a Māyāvādī.

Prabhupāda: Eh? No, no, no. I am speaking . . . I am answering your "well" and "not well." That's it. When there is death, then what is the use of calling "well" and "not well"?

Dr. Patel: "Well" and "not well," that's right.

Prabhupāda: That is my point. If you can avoid death, disease, old age, then you are well. You cannot avoid all these things. You must become old man, you must die, you must be diseased—then where is the meaning of this "well"? It is simply concoction. (break) Where is happiness? Where is well-being? That they do not know. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. That they do not know. Just like a man lying on sickbed, and some friends come, "How are you?" "Yes, today I am well." What is this "well"? You are lying on the sickbed, hospital, and you are speaking, "Yes, I am well." (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

There is no "well." So long you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, there is no question of "well." When you can avoid these things, then you are well. (break) . . . have got now our independence. What is that independence? No rice, no gehu. What is this independence? (break) Sab control ho jayega, sab . . . (Everything will be controlled, this) . . ."godless civilization" Sab bhukha marega, bas yehi hai. (Everyone will die of hunger, that's it.) (break) . . . take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, everything is false. You cannot escape. Yama ache piche. (Yamarāja is behind you.) The death is there. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). So at the end everything will be taken away by Kṛṣṇa in the form of death. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham. (japa) Everyone, especially the karmīs, they think that they will live forever.

Mr. Sar: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is the most wonderful thing. Because everyone is dying, but the man who is not yet dead, he thinks that he'll live forever. This is the most wonderful thing.

ahany ahani lokāni

gacchanti yama-mandiram

śeṣaḥ sthitam icchanti

kim āścaryam ataḥ param

(Mahābhārata, Vana-parva 313.116)

He does not think that, "I will have to die. So what I am doing?"

Guest (1) (Indian man): Swāmījī, may I ask you one question?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): You said this population is increasing. According to Hindu theory, we say that human life is very difficult, and you get this human birth after great karmas and good deeds and all that. So this population is increasing, and we are putting the birth control; and then the population of beasts and others that, the wild beasts, that is decreasing, although almost it has decreased.

Prabhupāda: But they have no birth control.

Guest (1): No, no, just see. And then you see the population of these, for instance, chickens, pigs and those, they have increased. So the population of human being that is increasing, is it due to these wild animals and other they have done good deeds, so they are coming up as a human being?

Prabhupāda: First thing is, I am asking you, why you are bothering about the increase of population? First, that is my question. The animals, they do not bother. You are so advanced in knowledge. Why you are bothering? First of all answer this question.

Guest (1): No, no, but that is . . .

Prabhupāda: The animals, they have got less intelligence. They never bother themselves, "The population is increasing." And you are advanced animal. Why you are so much bothered?

Guest (1): But that is . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you are less intelligent than the animals. That is my argument. They are lower animals. They are begetting at one time one dozen children. They are not bothering. Why you are bothering? That means that you are less than the animals, because you have got so much anxiety, "Why population increasing?" But they are not bothering. So you are less than animals.

Guest (1): No, no, my question is different.

Prabhupāda: That is my answer. Why you are bothering the population increasing? Why you are bothering?

Guest (1): Because they think that the resources . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Some, there is some . . . there is some reason. But they have no such thing. So therefore they are advanced. They have no such anxiety. You are less than animal.

Guest (1): No, that's right, Swāmījī, but what my question is . . .

Prabhupāda: That is . . . first answer is this, that you are bothered for increased population, but the animals are not. Therefore they are more advanced than you. They know that there is no botheration. Because in the Vedic injunction it is said, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Now, there are millions of elephants in Africa. Who is feeding them? Who is feeding them? They eat at one time one maund. Where the food is coming from? Why you are bothered? You'll take only one chaṭāka. That means you are godless. You do not know who is supplying your food. You are less than animal. That is my answer.

Guest (1): Swāmījī, my question is different.

Prabhupāda: This is the answer. You are very much . . .

Guest (1): No, that is . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . in anxiety.

Guest (2): Inka bolne ka dusra hai. (He is trying to say something different.)

Prabhupāda: Hah.

Guest (2): Yeh kya bolte hai ki jaise sau admi hai. Hum log ko admi ka janam milne ka piche . . . hum jab manushya yoni me ate hai wo acche karma karne se, acchi puja karne se ate hai. To jo kya . . . abhi jo increase ho rahi hai population, wo increased population kya janvaro me se admi ban rahe hai ya aur kahi se admi a rahe hai? Unka ye bolne ka . . . (What he is saying is that, say there are hundred people, the reason behind getting this human form of life . . . we appear in the human species because of past good deed and devotional service. But now that population is increasing, are these people coming from animal kingdom or somewhere else?)

Guest (1): Kyuki unka . . . kya unke karma itne bade bade hai . . . (Is it because their deeds are so great . . .) Human being, they are all coming as.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Human being, that is a chance given to you to become human being, to understand God. And if you do not place yourself as human being, you must suffer. Just like Apko koi naukri diya gaya. Accha post. (You are given a job. A good post.) If you do not behave rightly, you are degraded. You are going to animal become.

Guest (1): No, but . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, this is the nature's law. This is the nature's law, that some way or other, by evolutionary process, you come to the human being form, but if you remain as animal, then you go to animal again.

Guest (2): Animal bhi admi bante hai. (So animals also become human beings.)

Prabhupāda: He.

Guest (2): Accha. Toh ye population increase hone ka matlab. (What is the meaning of this increase in population?)

Prabhupāda: The same example. Suppose by promotion you come to a very nice post, but if you do not behave well, then you are degraded.

Guest (1): No, that I agree, Swāmījī, ki jo admi jo ban rahe hai, agar wo nahi behave karenge . . . (those who become humans, if they don't behave properly,) they will go back as human beings. But Jo ap . . . jab human being ban rahe hai, iska matlab hai animals ki jo karma hai wo bada . . . (when they are becoming human being, that means that the karma of those animals were very good.)

Prabhupāda: But, Apko post diya gaya, ap agar acchi tarah se kaam na kare . . . (You are given a post, if you don't work properly.)

Guest (1): Lekin post mujhe pehle milegi, qualification meri hogi to post milegi na. (But first of all, I should have the necessary qualifications, only then I can get the post.)

Prabhupāda: Qualification to hai. (You have the qualification.)

Guest (1): Mera karma, animals ka karma. (My karma, the karma of animals.)

Prabhupāda: Na na, why, why don't you understand?

Mr. Sar: Chance is given to you . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): Par chance . . . (But chance is . . .)

Guest (2): Nahi, nahi, inka bolne ka matlab dusra hai. (No no, he is trying to say something else.)

Prabhupāda: Kya matlab hai? (What does he mean to say?)

Guest (1): Chance to tabhi milega . . . (He will get a chance only when . . .)

(break)

Prabhupāda: . . . there is human form of life. If you do not know, then you remain animal. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samānam etat paśubhir narāṇām (Hitopadeśa): Eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense—this is there in the animals. And if you remain in that jurisdiction only—eating, sleeping and sexual intercourse and defense—you are animal, no more than animal. Why you are thinking that you are more than animal? (man laughs) You are animal. This is the śāstric injunction. You are no better than animal because your business is eating, sleeping, sexual intercourse and defense. Whole world is busy.

Guest (1): And then, Swāmījī, this birth control, that means going against the . . .

Prabhupāda: They are more than animals.

Guest (1): No, no, that just means going against the will of the God.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes.

Guest (1): Because God wants to bring them as human and they want to stop it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is a chance. Suppose if somebody's given chance to take opportunity, and if you kill, that's a great sin. You cannot do that. You are obstructing his natural progress. Idhar birth control hai, udhar to European countries me . . . (Here there are birth control systems, but in European countries . . .) he hasn't got soul . . . wo ek lump of matter hai, mar dalo usko. Yaha tak niche chala gaya . . . (it is just a lump of matter, kill him. They have degraded so much.) (break) As soon as you forget the duty of human life, then you are nothing but animal. This is the verdict of Hindu dharma, that if you do not properly behave as human being, you are no better than animal. Dharmeṇa hīna. Dharma sab chod diya, Bhagavan ko chod diya, wo kya hai, animal hai . . . Animal kya samjhega Bhagavan ko? Animal ke liye Veda, shastra bana hai? Human being ke liye hai. (If one gives up dharma, gives up God then he becomes an animal. What can an animal understand about God? Are Vedas made for animals? No. They are for human beings.) . . . will give him an animal body. This is nature's work. Yes, again come, again come. Wo to ayega. Jaise ek admi ko jail me bharti kar diya. Usne jab jail e chutti . . . (Just like a man is put into jail. When he gets released . . .) But he does not do that.

Guest (3): But Swāmījī, sexual intercourse after marriage is against law of Manu?

Prabhupāda: No, that is also . . . there is law. You cannot have sexual intercourse with wife as you like. No. That is also illicit sex. Then . . . when the woman is in menstrual period, after five days, you can have once. As soon as she is pregnant, no more sexual intercourse. This is human being. Not that like animal. Animal also, they have got restriction. You see? The lions, they have sexual intercourse once in life. Once in life. Brahmacārī. You see? So as soon as you violate the laws, then you are animal. Because law is meant for man. Just like "Keep to the right" and "left" in the road. It is meant for human being, not for the dogs. Dog, if he keeps right or left, it is not under law. But if you keep your car instead of left to the right, then you are criminal. (pause) (aside) So which way we have to go?

Girirāja: The next stairs.

Prabhupāda: Human life begins when he understands what is dharma. That is human life, beginning. Usiko ab chod dete hai, fir wo animal life hai. Human society me, wo chahe kahi bhi jaiye, koi Hindu religion hai, Muslim religion hai, Christian religion hai, Buddhist religion hai, Jewish religion hai. (If you give up dharma, then it is animal life. Any civilized human society will have religion. There is Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, Buddhist religion, Jewish religion.) The religion must be there. But when we give up this religious process, then there is no more human life—it is animal life. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Girirāja: (pointing out something) So by that . . . there's a emblem of the Theosophical Colony.

Prabhupāda: I see. Oh, yes, yes. (break) One old lady . . . you know, in the villages there is fair, or market. So in the morning she saw that so many hundreds of men have assembled. So one lady of that village, she thought that, "They have become my guest." So she began to cry and was asking his son, her son, "Oh, how I can accommodate so many people? How can I receive them as guests?" So the son said: "My dear mother, don't be agitated. In the evening you come." So in the evening when she come, there was nobody. There was nobody, because a marketplace. So this botheration is just like the old lady. After seeing so many men, she is agitated. And in the evening there is none.

So it requires intelligence that, "They are coming and going. Why I should be bothered about that? Let me do my duty as human being." That is required. Ek sath me dekhiyega . . . (If you see them together . . .) (break) . . . unlimited number of living entities. Ananta. Ananta means you cannot count. Within your body, within your stool there are millions of living entities. They are provided, maintained, by your stool, by your urine. So why do you bother? If your stool and urine can provide so many living entities, why you bother yourself? Isko samajhna chahiye. (This has to be understood.) You do your duty as human being. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ sa . . . don't become animal. That is required.

Idhar to hum rozana hazaro animal ko slaughterhouse me bhej dete hai aur idhar usko khane ko dene ke liye hum ko sir kharab ho gaya. Dekhiye. (Here we are sending so many animals to the slaughterhouse daily and then we worry over feeding animals. Just see.) (break) . . . the essence of knowledge. People are diverted in so many ways. Human duty is . . . Ap Bhagavad Gita to padhi hai. (You have read Bhagavad-gītā?) (break) That is human duty. Be surrendered to God. That is your duty. Then everything will come automatically. Everything will come. And without knowledge, how you can take care? That is not possible.

Satsvarūpa: Prabhupāda, we're late for our meeting. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . be strong. Now nobody cares for it.

Mr. Sar: All these movements, at one time, sometime Ārya-samāja movement was very strong, sometimes another's. They come and go.

Prabhupāda: But this Kṛṣṇa movement is always strong. There are millions of Kṛṣṇa temple in India, and the Ārya-samājīs tried to check people going to the temple. But they, they have gone away, and the temple is existing, and millions of people still going to see the temple. In Jagannātha temple, in Vṛndāvana, thousands and thousands of men, still coming. All the South Indian temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tirupati.

Prabhupāda: Tirupati.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 25,000 people a day.

Guest (1): 25,000 years old?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, people are coming every day.

Guest (1): Oh.

Prabhupāda: But their income is more than one lakh of rupees daily.

Guest (1): Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Kya nam apka? (What is your name?)

Guest (3): Mera nam . . . (indistinct) . . . mai Kashmir ka rehne wala hu. (My name is . . . (indistinct) . . . I am from Kashmir.)

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (break) . . . that is our slogan. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi (SB 1.1.1). Janmādyasya yataḥ. We explain this truth. The truth is that from whom everything comes. Janmādyasya yataḥ. So He's person or imperson? No, abhijñaḥ svarāṭ. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ.

Devotee: Kṛṣṇa says: "There's no truth superior to Me."

Prabhupāda: Yes, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). The truth is there. They do not know. Half-educated. This is very good, "Truth is the . . ." We also say, but they do not know what is that truth.

Satsvarūpa: They leave the question hanging that, "No man may actually know what it is." (end)