731214 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

Morning Walks by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

731214MW-LOS ANGELES - December 14, 1973 - 59:05 Minutes

(in car)

Prabhupāda: . . . ISKCON name cannot be registered . . .

Rūpānuga: No.

Prabhupāda: . . . then I have suggested that you make a party, "In God We Trust."

Rūpānuga: Yes. That's very nice. That makes them Kṛṣṇa conscious immediately.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: They're trying to destroy that, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Let them try. Let us revive it.

Rūpānuga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They . . . the people are becoming gradually demon. So they will try in their own ways, so many ways, to banish God, to kill God, to become godless. Our business is to revive God consciousness—the whole world.

Rūpānuga: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: So let them try in their own way, we must try in our own way. So long the slogan is there, we must take advantage of it.

Rūpānuga: Well it's . . . it's the right time, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: It is the right time.

Rūpānuga: It's the perfect time.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: Yes. Because the young people have no cause.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: And the older people just have no reason to go on. Plus, in three years is the 200th anniversary.

Prabhupāda: When?

Rūpānuga: In three years.

Prabhupāda: Hah.

Rūpānuga: It's the 200th anniversary of the country. 1776. It would be 1976, and there'll be much feeling generated about that. We can take advantage.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Say we get . . . we get it registered.

Rūpānuga: Well, one thing I found, so far, that it's not required to register a national party, so I'm trying to find out how . . . find out how we can do it. You register by getting on the ballot in each state. That requires that you get signatures from the citizens . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: One side, we have to go on educating people to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Other side . . . another side is that being a political candidate, we can make our propaganda . . .

Rūpānuga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . and expose these leaders. They are not leaders; they are misleaders. People should know what kind of leader they must have. If the leader is sinful—drunkard, gamblers, intoxicants—how he can do good for the people? This should be . . . (indistinct) . . . leader, the priest, the king or the president, and the . . . at least these three men in the state, they must be above all suspicion. Then country will be happy. If these men are sinful, gamblers, intoxicants, how their brain will work for the good of the people? They are not leaders; they are misleaders. This we have to expose, to the best extent. (break) (on walk) . . . not very nice. (break) Theologist? Or theologician?

Prajāpati: Theologian.

Prabhupāda: Theologian. So how you are going to define "God"?

Prajāpati: Define God as that Supreme Person who is complete in six opulences. This is our Kṛṣṇa conscious definition. It must now be tran . . . seen, brought to the eyes of the Western theologians.

Prabhupāda: No, don't say: "According to." First of all you have to define. So what is the . . . (interrupted by loud car revving engine) What is this driving? Huh? Identification with the car: "I have got this car." Is that?

Prajāpati: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see how nonsense he is.

Prajāpati: Just the simple fact of the . . . God being supreme, people have rejected nowadays. So if we can simply show them that we are not supreme, that God is supreme, that is a beginning platform.

Prabhupāda: No, you are . . . what is their argument?

Prajāpati: Well, their . . .

Prabhupāda: Why they deny God?

Prajāpati: They see our argument of . . . the fact of natural law—there must be a lawmaker. They're saying that there is a difference between our law that is given—that we have a choice to accept or reject—and the, the so-called laws of nature. They say that's simply a definition of the way things are, and it's simply not nature is forced into it, but it's simply a matter of, uh, um . . .

Prabhupāda: But you are forced.

Prajāpati: . . . chance or, uh . . .

Prabhupāda: How can you say?

Karandhara: They say we, we can, we can con . . . gradually come to control the laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is another . . . means foolishness, "We can, we do in future." We say this is foolishness. If the laws of nature cannot be checked, then how do you expect that in future you will be able to check? What is his argument?

Karandhara: Well, they'll say just like they have conquered so many diseases.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Disease you have not changed; disease are there. Have you stopped disease?

Karandhara: Well, they think they are getting closer.

Prabhupāda: Again "think" and "future," they are . . . but . . . that proposition we will reject immediately, kick out, "No 'future.' Immediate proposition. You are unable to change the law of nature."

Prajāpati: They say it's not really a law, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They say it's simply . . .

Prabhupāda: This is law: You must die. This is law. And you cannot change it. What do you say, scientist?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the laws of nature cannot be changed.

Prabhupāda: So then why you are struggling against, uselessly?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They try to violate the laws of nature, but they suffer endlessly.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they suffer. That is not possible. You cannot . . . these are all not sane proposal, that we shall be able . . . just like some Russian scientist said: "In future, by science, we shall make people immortal." These are all foolish proposal. How any sane man can believe? You cannot change the law of nature.

Karandhara: They say that, in that philosophy, it is just lazy, laziness.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Karandhara: They say that that philosophy is laziness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lazy intelligent, first-class man, and (laughing) fool, active foolish, is the last-class man. That is the calculation. If a man is foolish, at the same time active, his position is very precarious. He will die. Just like a child—he is very active, but he has to be taken care, "No, no, no. Don't go there. No, no, no. Don't go there." But he is very active. So what is the meaning of this activity? Huh? A child is very active, but his activity has to be checked.

So similarly, you are all rascal fools—your activity has to be checked. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like this rascal drove his car, vroooom. How long he will go? He has to stop there, a few yards after. So he is a rascal. That activity is rascaldom. That is not sane man. He thought that, "I am going in force." And after few yards he has to stop, immediately.

Prajāpati: He gained some sense gratification from the acceleration, going . . .

Prabhupāda: No. This is childish foolishness, doggish foolishness. Just like a small dog is jumping (makes sound), that's all. But he does not know (chuckles) that he is under control. Rabindranath Tagore said sometimes that "When I was in London, the people are so busily running . . ." That time motorcar was not so many; he went about sixty years ago. So he said that, "I was thinking the small island, they are going so fast, they may not fall in the sea." (laughter) (laughs) So this is the position. What is their fast?

Their fast . . . they are advancing fast means they are advancing fast to death. That's all. Therefore sane man will try to check them: "Please become little lazy. Don't become so active. You are going to hell. You are going to die." But actually, by so-called advancement, what they have gained? They have gained that their duration of life has been reduced. This is the gain, practical gain. Now nobody is living hundred years. What is the average age at the present moment all over the world?

Karandhara: I don't know all over the world. The United States it's seventy-two. Seventy-two or seventy-three.

Rūpānuga: Average?

Karandhara: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So United State is so prosperous and everything . . . (break) I, I have seen, my grandmother's stage. My grandmother died at ninety-six years old. That is not . . . my grandmother died in 1914 or '15 years. At that time she was ninety-six years old. My mother was the youngest child, and she gave birth my mother at the age of fifty, my grandmother. When she was fifty years old, my mother was born. Therefore the my mother's eldest sister, her sons and daughters were of the same age, or sometimes they were, mean to say, elder than my mother.

Prajāpati: They all lived a very long time?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. My mother did not live long time. She died at the age of forty-five or forty-six.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Forty-six, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, at the age of forty-six my mother died. My father died at the age of eighty-four. According to our calculation, the age is decreasing. In the Satya-yuga people used to live for 100,000 years. Vālmīki underwent meditation for 60,000 years. Now the later age, Satya, Dvāpara-yuga . . . no, Satya, Tretā-yuga. Tretā-yuga, people used to live for 10,000 years. Next age, Dvāpara-yuga, 1,000 years. Just like Kṛṣṇa passed away at the . . . He left this world at the age of hundred and twenty-five, but He was looking like a young man. You have never seen Kṛṣṇa's photograph or picture as old man.

Similarly, in the Kurukṣetra we find when funeral ceremony function was going on, at that time many, many old men were present. So if we have to believe all Mahābhārata . . . or you have to believe. Mahābhārata means the history of greater India. Mahā means "greater." So Bhāgavata says that people are, in the Kali-yuga, they will reduce their strength, their duration of life, their sense of mercifulness, bodily strength. In this way, eight kinds of things will be reduced gradually, and the duration of age will be twenty to thirty years by the end of Kali-yuga.

Prajāpati: You can see that so much today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Many young people look very old because of . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prajāpati: . . . the way they've been living.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have no vitality. From their face it appears how long he will live. They have no strength, no vitality, no brain. No brain. They forget so easily. So how they say they are increasing? This is all symptoms at the present moment. How you can say?

Karandhara: Well, one of the things they'll say, they'll say like they've gone . . . they go to Africa or India, and they inoculate everyone against smallpox, and they save 50,000 children from dying.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, that is good for you, because you are using contraceptive, so they are dying. That is good for your scientific advancement, because you don't want overpopulation. So why do you bother about that? Let them die. That is going on. One side they want to check death, and another side, they kill in the womb. This is their philosophy. Then why . . . why they are killing? What is the idea? To check increase of population. Then, when in other part of the world they are dying, why they are anxious to save them?

Karandhara: It is ambiguous.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) This is their philosophy.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once the child is born, they want to save.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But when they cannot see . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, child is already born. Pregnancy means the child is already born. Can you say there is no child? What is this nonsense? Therefore I said this is a set of rascal only. Simply rascals. When a woman is pregnant, why you say "pregnant"? That means child is already born. The pregnant woman, does . . . does it mean that there is no child within the womb? What is their theory?

Karandhara: Well, they've rationalized it.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Karandhara: They've rationalized . . .

Prabhupāda: But they are animals. How they can rationalize?

Karandhara: Well it's animal rationalization.

Prabhupāda: Yes. A cat . . . dog, cats, he cannot rationalize.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the example that when the rabbit, rabbit closes his eyes . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . so when they close the eyes they cannot see it . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore he thinks . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The child is in the womb. They cannot see it, so they think that it's, it is okay.

Prabhupāda: So it is rabbit philosophy. It is not man's philosophy. Frog's philosophy, rabbit's philosophy, ass's philosophy. So therefore they have been described,

śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ

saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ

(SB 2.3.19)

These rascals, leaders, they are glorified by another set of rascal fools, because the whole population is rascal. Therefore they elect these rascals as leader. That is the mistake. Once they elect some rascal as leader, and then, being dissatisfied, they make another revolution and they elect another rascal . . . that is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed. He does not know whom to elect. He elects one rascal, repents, then makes agitation to get him out, then elects another rascal.

Prajāpati: Since they're all rascals . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . .

Prajāpati: . . . they cannot find . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to educate them, that "Elect somebody actually who is leader. Then you will be happy." Otherwise, you go on electing one rascal, rejecting, and another rascal, rejecting. So where is your happiness? Therefore we have to educate that what kind of leader should be elected. You . . . we don't say that, "Elect me." We simply say that, "This should be the standard of leader. Now you make your choice." Now we have to give the clear idea, "What do you mean by 'God'?"

Prajāpati: "What do you mean by 'trust'?"

Prabhupāda: "And what do you mean by 'trust'?" You simply elucidate these two words and make your propaganda, and that will be preaching of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if people actually want to know what is God, read Bhagavad-gītā. "Here is book. Read it. With your intelligence try to understand." And then further progress, Bhāgavata. It is not that we are theorizing. Here is practical: "You learn from authorized books." So if you make people interested, the another side will be that your books will be sold more. That is your practical profit. Is that all right, Rūpānuga Mahārāja?

Rūpānuga: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: I was thinking . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rūpānuga: . . . if we offer them . . . if we offer them the qualifications of, of what the leaders should be . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: . . . but they don't see such people, then would . . . at the same time, don't we have to offer them someone to choose between—the rascals and the devotees?

Prabhupāda: Huh? No. Then you become leader. If you cannot make others qualified, you become qualified. In due course of time you will be elected.

Rūpānuga: The thing is, there's no . . . those four regulations . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like there is epidemic; everybody is diseased. Therefore it does not mean that disease must go on. You take precaution you may not be diseased, so that you can save others. This is the philosophy.

Rūpānuga: That leaflet that we're going to distribute?

Prabhupāda: What?

Rūpānuga: That leaflet that we're going to distribute?

Prabhupāda: Which leaflet?

Rūpānuga: Tells the . . . the leaflet about politics, the qualifications of a leader.

Prabhupāda: Uh-huh.

Rūpānuga: Now the leaflet lists those four restrictions, and the one positive is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. So, now . . .

Prabhupāda: So if you, if you believe in God, so why you should have objection in chanting the holy name of God?

Rūpānuga: Right.

Prabhupāda: If it is . . . you say: "I . . . in God I believe," then you must know what is the name of God, what is the address of God. Then you can trust. You can talk with Him. So if you do not know, know from us. We are giving you the name, address, the quality, the everything. And if you say: "There is no God," then what is the meaning of this slogan?

(aside) We shall go now, this side?

Devotee (1): No, I think we can go around again.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have one question.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I want to know whether there is any information about the . . . in the spiritual world, we have any spiritual evolution.

Prabhupāda: What?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Evolutionary process in the spiritual world.

Prabhupāda: No. That is the perfection of evolution, spiritual world. Evolution means you have got some destination; you have to reach this. That is evolution.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So spiritual world means that is the perfection of evolution.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we know that the, uh, the material world is a reflection of the spiritual world . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . but here we find evolution.

Prabhupāda: No. Just like a rascal and a gentleman. Both are appearing like the same, but what is the difference between rascal and gentleman? That you have to study further. Simply by seeing that, "This man has two hands; that man has two hands. This man has head; he has got head," so what is the difference?

But why you say one man rascal and one man very advanced? So the rascal has to come to the standard, although at the present moment they are looking the same. That is culture. That is called knowledge. That is called culture. When one man is fully conscious or fully, what is called, aware of everything nicely, that is perfection. Not by the superficial heads and legs and dress.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So is individual soul is completely satisfied here?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: After . . . but how . . .

Prabhupāda: Yenātmā samprasīdati (SB 1.2.6). That is Bhāgavata. Sa vai puṁsāṁ. In the human society, why there is some religion? That religious process means to make him perfect. Otherwise, what is the need? But these rascals, they do not know what is the meaning of religion, what is the necessity of religion. Why in the religions taking vow, "Thou shall not kill"? That means you are imperfect, and in the habit of killing. You should stop. This is religion. This is religion.

So why in the human society, civilized human society, there is religion? Religion means to make the imperfect to the perfectional stage. That is religion. Or to bring the man from his hodgepodge consciousness to the perfect consciousness of Kṛṣṇa, or God. That is perfect.

Rūpānuga: They have made propaganda, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to separate Church and State, but they have also separated God and country.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Rūpānuga: Actually . . .

Prabhupāda: No, because they do not understand what is God. God cannot be separated.

Rūpānuga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because everything is God. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). You are now still . . . just like a man in the prison house, he may think that, "This prison house must now be separated from government." Is it possible? Because they are suffering, so next plan is to make the prison house separated from government. But that is not possible. You cannot make yourself separated from death, separated from disease. Can you make separate? So long your body is there, there must be disease.

So how you can make yourself separated from God, who is everything? Because they do not know what is God, therefore thinking like that, that God can be separated. But if they study Īśopaniṣad, that God is present everywhere, it is not possible to separation. Yena sarvam idaṁ tatam (BG 2.17). Just like your consciousness is everywhere, in any part of your body, similarly the Supreme Consciousness, God, is everywhere. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). Kṛṣṇa says: "I know everything." Unless He is everywhere, how He can know everything? What do you say, scientist?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: God is everywhere. Otherwise how things are going nicely? How things are made so nicely if God's intelligence, consciousness, is not everywhere? So if your consciousness is there, then you are there. Similarly, the Supreme Consciousness is there, everywhere. Then just like the new season, there . . . this tree also dry or the leaves will fall. The other trees also fall. You cannot say that season is acting here, not there. It is acting everywhere. So that season is God consciousness. God wants, "Now this is the time all the trees should be dry." Automatically it is again. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.8). His potency is so first class that everything is acting exactly to His desire. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate (BG 9.10).

These things are there. They should study. These rascals say nature. So what is the nature? Nature is working under the direction of God. This is understanding of God. How you can separate? So-called Church, so-called religion, you can reject. That is God's mission. God says that, "You give up all kinds of so-called religion." That is also we advocate. The name, so-called . . . just like you believe in God, but you do not know what is God; therefore you want to separate. But if you know that God cannot be separated, then you do not propose this thing foolishly. Exactly if the prisoner says that, "This time we shall make agitation that there should be no prison house in the government," that is not possible. If the government is there, the prison house must be there.

Prajāpati: The day before yesterday a policeman saw your picture here on this button, and he said, "Who is this man?" And I said: "This is a man who is always thinking and talking about God." And he said: "Well, if everyone was like that, then I would be out of my job." I said: "Well . . . well, there's always . . ."

Prabhupāda: He will get a better job. We have got hundreds and thousands. They are always in twenty-four-hours engaged.

Prajāpati: But there would still be need for policemen.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Karandhara: Well, if everyone was a criminal, he'd also be out of a job.

Prabhupāda: The policeman means . . . we are not harassed by policeman. You may be harassed.

Rūpānuga: Now even the policeman is criminal.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Everyone is criminal. If the president is criminal, then what to speak of others?

Rūpānuga: So the biggest problem in the government today is the lying. The people, in a recent poll conducted by the United States Senate . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: . . . the people indicated that the greatest thing that they were worried about was the cheating in the government. That is, that the honesty . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore our proposition that this should be the standard of leaders. Then you will get nice leaders.

Rūpānuga: In the court, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when they say . . . when they ask a man to testify, they ask him to raise his hand and say: "Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?" And then the man lies.

Prabhupāda: Ah, no . . .

Rūpānuga: So there's no God con . . . not even at that one moment is there any God consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: So God and the country have not been separated. Actually, God is right in the center . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: . . . of the government.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: But, but they're lying in His name.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That, because they do not know it; therefore it is our duty to educate them to know what is God. People will appreciate. If you do not know something, and if I try to give you information, what reason you have got that you shall not accept it?

Prajāpati: There are certain qualifications for accepting it, though.

Prabhupāda: No, accepting is another. Let us discuss. I give you some information, then if you think it is proper, you have to take it.

Rūpānuga: But you have to be the example.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rūpānuga: But we have to be the example.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Rūpānuga: That . . . that . . . that is the best way to teach, isn't it, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: By example.

Prabhupāda: Know. Therefore it is called āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. You must behave yourself fully God conscious, then you can teach God consciousness. If you are a butcher, and if you teach God consciousness (laughs), that is incompatible. That will not . . .

Rūpānuga: So on the plane yesterday, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was preaching to a businessman and telling . . . we were discussing all the lying and cheating, and how these leaders have to be changed. And I gave him the qualifications of leadership. And we went down them one by one, and I explained them. And I asked him what he thought, and he liked the idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: And a lot of young people I've been talking to, they like the idea that we're entering into politics.

Prabhupāda: Simply . . . simply we have to make propaganda. People will like it.

Prajāpati: But now in the Vedic days the kṣatriyas, they did not always follow all what we consider regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not kṣatriya. According to Bhagavad-gītā, you do not follow the kṣatriya rules and regulation you are not a kṣatriya. That is government duty. But the government is third class. Government's duty is to see that what you profess, you act. Just like government gives license that, what is called, restaurant. So if you want to maintain the restaurant, then you must follow the rules and regulation. Is it not government's duty to see? You cannot distribute poison in the name of restaurant. Similarly, if you profess to be a brahmin, you must act.

Just like I teach my disciples, "You are now accepting brahmin thread, you must act like a brahmin; otherwise you will be rejected." Last morning I was talking like that. So similarly, it is the duty of the head man to see that one who is professing as such and such, he must act like that. Otherwise he should be rejected. That is the duty to be seen by the chief man of the chief institution. Why I appointed the GBC men? I advised them to go, temple to temple, if they are acting nicely, according to us. That is our . . . that is the duty of the GBC. But if he does not act himself nicely, what he will do that?

So it is the government's duty to see that these are divisions of engagement: brahmin, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So nobody should be unemployed. Everyone should be employed—must have engagement. Otherwise idle brain will produce devil's workshop. That is being done. So many hippies are idle. Government has no proposition how to engage them. They do not know how the nation is going—deteriorated. But they do not know. They have no other . . . because they are imperfect. They are imperfect; therefore they have allowed this imperfectness to make progress. If government is imperfect, they will allow this imperfectness to go. Boys are hippies and girls are prostitutes, and the government has no eyes to see where they are going. So this is . . . this will not make any progress.

Rūpānuga: If the government's demon.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rūpānuga: The government . . . the government's demon.

Prabhupāda: The government demon because you are demon. Government means your government. People by the government.

Rūpānuga: But they don't care about the young people.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rūpānuga: They don't care about the young people.

Prabhupāda: Because they are demons. They have been elected by demons, and they are demons. So demon's business is sense gratification, personal. He doesn't care for you or others. That is demon. And devotee means he cares for others. That is devotee. That is the difference between demon and devotee. And just like Hiraṇyakaśipu: for his sense gratification he is prepared to kill his own son. And Prahlāda Mahārāja thinks that "Unless I take all these rascals to God consciousness, I am not going alone."

This is the difference. He says: "I am not going alone to Vaikuṇṭha. I must turn these, all these rascals, into Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is the difference, see, in Prahlāda Mahārāja and . . . the father is prepared to kill his own son, five years old, without any fault, because he wanted to satisfy his senses: "I don't believe in God, and this child is believing in God—he must be killed." He is not prepared to give little independence to his own son. He never said: "All right, you will believe it, believe it. I don't care for it. I don't believe it." At least in this age people say like that. (laughs)

Rūpānuga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But you are so demon, great demon that, "You don't believe . . . you believe, I don't believe. You disagree—I shall kill you." Just like Christ was killed. The people did not believe in God, and he wanted to speak of God. So that is the difference between demon and devotee. A devotee is always thinking, "Why you . . ." We are planning about this politics, about this preaching, because we are feeling for the suffering of the people. This is our position. Otherwise, why should we bother about these things? Let them do their duty, and let me do. Therefore we don't approve that going to a solitary place and chanting. My Guru Mahārāja did not approve. This is all nonsense. You cannot chant. So you will sleep only, and you will think of nonsense. You must be engaged for preaching work.

Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa (SB 7.9.43). Actually, Prahlāda Mahārāja said that naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaraṇyā: "My dear Lord, I have no anxiety how to cross over this material nescience and go back to home, back to . . ." That problem is solved. How?

Tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ (SB 7.9.43): "I can chant Your holy name any place, and that is sufficient." "Then? What are you thinking?" Now, śoce tato vimukha, tato vimukha-cetasa: "I am simply thinking of persons who do not want to accept You, and they are falsely engaged in some big, big plans, māyā-sukhāya, for so-called happiness for a few days." Next time they are going to be cats and dogs. But for duration of, say, fifty, sixty years, making big, big plan. Just like he drove the car.

(imitates sound of car revving and laughs)

He started a big plan. You see? (laughs) So this is going on. So Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "I am thinking of these rascals, otherwise, personally I have no problem." So any Vaiṣṇava, he has no personal problem. So the preacher who is not very much attentive toward his personal affair, but he is very much attentive for the good of the people, that is preacher.

Rūpānuga: That is Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: That is Vaiṣṇava. No, Vaiṣṇava . . . he is also Vaisnava. He is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, neophyte Vaiṣṇava. And this man who is preaching, he is a far advanced. Just like in a State there are many philanthropists, politician, but one politician who has fought in the fight and given, laid down his life, he is remembered. Just like George Washington. Because fought for the country's independence, therefore he's given so much honor. There are, just like, many politician, so those who are fighting against the evil, they should be given first position.

Rūpānuga: Eisenhower was a hero.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rūpānuga: Eisenhower was another war hero. They gave him President.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is natural. So the preacher has to face so many difficulties to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So he will be more recognized than one who is chanting for himself. May be right. He is concerned for his own personal interest, but the preacher, he doesn't care for his personal interest—like Prahlāda Mahārāja. He want to see everyone becomes happy by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. So this is being taken into consideration by some of my sober Godbrothers that, "What we have done, and what Swāmījī is doing?"

(pause)

That we are factually seeing, that these rascals, they have no knowledge, and they are leading the whole society, and people are suffering. This is our concern.

Rūpānuga: Nixon, they want him to leave, but he will not leave.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rūpānuga: Nixon will not leave office. Nobody wants him.

Prabhupāda: There, just see.

Rūpānuga: He's holding on.

Prabhupāda: So there is no means to get him out?

Rūpānuga: Now they're talking about impeachment.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Rūpānuga: But the man who is vice-president, the new vice-president, Mr. Ford, is a bulldog. He has no qualities. He is not even intelligent. Then . . . then in three years, there's another man who's waiting in the wings, waiting in the background to take. His name is Connally. He was in the car when Kennedy was assassinated, and he's got some hero status because he was wounded.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Rūpānuga: He's waiting for the play. In three years he will run.

Prabhupāda: So that as I was speaking, that simply by changing one demon to another, that will not help the situation. They must know the right type of leader.

Rūpānuga: I think that these men, like Connally, he shows his demonic qualities even in photographs. I think he would sell the whole country.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Rūpānuga: I think he would sell out the country. He would let . . . he would sell out to the Russians for a price.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Rūpānuga: They're such cheaters, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Certainly he would run the other way. These men don't even . . . have never fought. They've never actually led the people. They have no qualities of leadership, even courage. In this poll I was mentioning before, the people named five things which they consider . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Rūpānuga: . . . to be important.

Prabhupāda: The demons will come for election, but if people are educated, why they will elect? After all, he has to depend on the verdict of the people.

Rūpānuga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So if the people become intelligent, then these demons cannot take advantage.

Rūpānuga: But the demons have arranged it so that the people do not have any choice. They choose between two demons.

Prabhupāda: Uh-huh.

Rūpānuga: So actually they have no choice of vote. Their vote is . . .

Prabhupāda: There . . . therefore your propaganda should be very strong, so that they can make a choice.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, these men are so corrupt, even materially they have no good qualities. It should seem that our propaganda, if it is presented very strongly and purely, they . . . how they can really pose a very strong opposition? We should . . .

Prabhupāda: Well . . .

Devotee (1): . . . be able to defeat them.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say, "Your philosophy is ideal. It cannot be attained."

Prabhupāda: No. Why not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say like that.

Prabhupāda: Why ideal?

Rūpānuga: They can see our men, like Balavanta Prabhu. He presented contrast, but he did not get so many votes. Nothing. But he presented a contrast. The people could see and tell the difference between the truth and these cheaters.

Prabhupāda: Now, what we are proposing? We are proposing that "You don't eat meat." What does it mean? We are advising people not to eat, or starve? We don't say that. Why they imply? Does it mean that one man who is not eating meat, he dies for want of food? Why do you say it is impractical? Is it impractical?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it is practical, but . . . but they will say that it is ideal; it cannot be attained in the . . .

Prabhupāda: Why ideal?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . in the large society.

Prabhupāda: Why ideal? Here is meat. You cannot eat even meat, only meat. You mix with so many salad . . . (indistinct) . . . and 75% other things. Other things.

Rūpānuga: But the leader, he has to do it.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Rūpānuga: If the leader doesn't eat meat . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: . . . then the people will . . . will understand.

Prabhupāda: That is, that is yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas (BG 3.21).

Rūpānuga: The example has to be there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: Even if you say: "Don't . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, he says it is impractical. I say it is not impractical. It is not impractical; it is practical.

Rūpānuga: But it is impractical for these men who're now there. They cannot take up such, such teachings.

Prabhupāda: No. They . . . that is another. Just like nobody is inclined to take education, but government has arrangement for adult education for . . . because nobody is inclined to take education, you cannot say: "No, stop us for propagation of education." That is . . . so whatever we are proposing, that is not impractical. And even impractical, how you European, American boys are taking it? It is not impractical.

Rūpānuga: Now I've been talking to students. They do not think that these regulative principles are practical, because they cannot see people in power doing it. They cannot see leaders doing it.

Prabhupāda: No. People, you have put him into power, but if you, your number is larger, then these rascals will not be in power.

Rūpānuga: But the people that really follow our movement don't even vote. They don't even register to vote.

Prabhupāda: That I never did, because I don't . . .

Rūpānuga: Who to vote?

Prabhupāda: . . . I don't believe in voting a rascal.

Rūpānuga: Yes. That's what they tell me.

Prabhupāda: I never did.

Rūpānuga: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I never did. In my household life I never voted for anyone. Anyone. I avoided. Sometimes they used to come with their car to take me there. I avoided. Yes.

Rūpānuga: But they said to me that if they had someone, if they had some . . . some person to choose, that they would register and they would vote if there was choice. Otherwise, they don't want to vote. So how, how can we . . . how can we do without their vote? And they . . . and eventually we have to get the young people to vote for us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, the franchisement is bestowed upon all adult. So if you can educate, educate the major portion, then automatically it will check.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just in a democratic country, in a democratic society, people should have some free will. So if I impose that, "Don't do this, don't do that," then they'll be disappointed.

Prabhupāda: Then you impose so many things. Why do you impose, "Keep to the left. Keep to the right"? Why do you impose? You impose in every step. And what is that, if somebody says: "No, I shall go to the left"? Can he go, do that? Why you impose?

Rūpānuga: Authority is there . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you impose red light, stop? Why you impose?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say there are some common platforms . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . which can be agreed upon.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That may be. But you are imposing. You cannot say that there should be no imposement. You cannot say that. There is no free will. There is no independence.

Devotee (1): Everything is controlled.

Prabhupāda: Ah, everything is controlled.

Prajāpati: But about forty years ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they said: "No more drinking." They closed all the liquor houses, like that, and it turned out people took to more drinking, but all undercover, black market. So the government said, "No drinking . . ."

Prabhupāda: That means because the . . . no, still, government should have not taken.

Rūpānuga: There's no example.

Prabhupāda: Government, that, that individual may be allowed to drink, but he should be punished. That does not mean, because everyone is drinking, so government should take as "Now let us manufacture." This is not a good decision. If they order people not to drink, that order should remain. If their people are making illicit drinking, then he should be punished, severely punished. Then it would have stopped, automatically.

Karandhara: Well, the politicians were thinking that if we don't repeal this law, we won't get elected, because the majority of the people want . . .

Prabhupāda: That is their fault. They want to be bribed, that's all.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the duty of the politician is to make false promises.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "I'll do this. I'll do that."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee (1): Ultimately, when they made law against drinking, they did not give any good alternative program for training brahminical people at that time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is another reason. You can . . . you cannot simply ask a child, "Stop playing." You must give him education. Then he will automatically stop playing.

Devotee (1): Supposing we could stop the slaughtering of animals in the country. There would be . . . there'd be big black market in slaughtered animals. But at least the government level would be . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Now our proposition is to educate people not to eat meat. Then this slaughterhouse will automatically be stopped. Our policy is there. We don't simply, what is called, pedagogism? Pedagogue . . .

Devotee (2): Fanaticism?

Prabhupāda: No, what is this pedagogue?

Prajāpati: Pedagogy.

Prabhupāda: Huh? What is the meaning of pedagogue?

Prajāpati: So, a dictatorship, where we just . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prajāpati: . . . ruthlessly enforce something.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't want that, pedagogism. We must be example. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . but they themselves smoke in the lab. Say that smoking is harmful, but they work there, and they smoke themselves.

Prabhupāda: This is the position. This is the position. Just see. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . friend who took you to Bhaktisiddhānta Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . he became a disciple also, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. He was a Vaiṣṇava, but not very . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was older? He was older?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was much older?

Prabhupāda: No. He was of my age. (break) (laughs) Yes, I am now . . . (indistinct)

Prajāpati: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Jaya!

Devotees: All glories . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: (in car) Huh?

Rūpānuga: People will have respect for us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: One thing: if we are able to get on the ballot in ten states, just ten states—means signatures of people in the state—we can be recognized as a candidate. Just for propaganda, for getting on television, nationally. We can speak our philosophy in front of many millions.

Prabhupāda: Just their signature?

Rūpānuga: Yes. It takes ten . . . by law it takes only ten states. We can pick the less populated states, where we're doing effective work, in the south.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: The southern part, where the people are more pious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: We can get them to sign, because it's not a vote . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Rūpānuga: . . . it's simply that they allow a man to run in the Democrat…

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Rūpānuga: Democratic. Democratic.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We like this political plan. So make that propaganda. (break) (end)