730905 - Conversation A - Stockholm

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730905R1-STOCKHOLM - September 05, 1973 - 74:08 Minutes

(Conversation with Indian Ambassador, A. K. Damodaran)

Prabhupāda: When you left Moscow?

Ambassador: February, six months ago.

Prabhupāda: Oh. I went Moscow in . . .?

Devotee: 1970.

Prabhupāda: Nineteen . . .?

Devotee: Seventy.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I think nineteen . . .

Haṁsadūta: Seventy-one.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: Seventy . . .

Prabhupāda: Two.

Haṁsadūta: Seventy-two, that's right.

Prabhupāda: June.

Haṁsadūta: June.

Devotee: That was last year?

Haṁsadūta: Seventy-one.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Seventy-one.

Devotee: In April, in the morning.

Prabhupāda: You were there at '71?

Ambassador: Seventy-one, I was, I think, there. I might have gone to India on leave. I returned in March, the end of March. Because I don't remember the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. I went there in June, 1971.

Ambassador: And did you stay in the city, or did . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes, in National Hotel. One Madrasi gentleman . . .

Ambassador: I remember now, Sir. Abhiyarthe Natarajan.

Prabhupāda: Nataraja, yes.

Ambassador: Mr. Natarajan Rao told me, because I was away. I was away in Central Asia. I remember his telling me. And Natarajan looked after.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: I see. Abhi toh yaad hai. (Now I remember.)

Prabhupāda: So you have heard something about our movement?

Ambassador: General, generally. In general. I hear . . .

Prabhupāda: All over the world, they are expecting something spiritual enlightenment from India. That is a fact. But our government is callous in that respect. Therefore any so-called svāmī, yogīs come from India, they gather to receive him, to hear something from him. Yes. This is the tendency, that . . . the real thing is that people expected something . . . still they are respectful to India on account of the spiritual enlightenment.

That I have studied. Still they go to India to have some spiritual enlightenment. And actually we have got this in India. If anything has to be learned about spiritual, then it is only India. That has been admitted by one Chinese gentleman. He's a learned scholar. His book is recommended in New York University. I forget his name. He has written in his book that, "If you want to learn something religion and spiritual, then you must go to India."

Ambassador: It must be Lin Yutang, no?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: Was it Lin Yutang?

Prabhupāda: I do not know.

Ambassador: Yutang. You see he's a very great admirer of India.

Prabhupāda: And that's a fact. But our Indian government is not very serious about it.

Ambassador: No, we have a difficulty, Your Eminence. You have got a problem in India because we have got this multi-religious society. So we have to be careful. But individuals can do it for the . . .

Prabhupāda: No . . .

Ambassador: Because we have got to be . . . we should not be misunderstood. As a government, we should not take too strong a policy about any particular religion, even though it is the religion of the majority of the people.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is the duty of the government . . . secular state means neutral to any kind of religion. But it is the duty of government to see that people are religious. Not that, "Because government is secular, let the people go to hell."

Ambassador: No, that's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are Muslim, and . . . it is my duty as government to see that you are actually acting as a Muslim. If you are a Hindu, it is the government's duty to see that you are acting as a Hindu. If you are a Christian, it is the government's duty . . . you cannot give up religion. Dharmena hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ (Hitopadeśa).

If people become irreligious in the name of secularism, then they are simply animals. So it is the government duty to see that the citizens are not becoming animals. He may profess a type of religion. That doesn't matter. But he must be religious. That is secular state. Not that secular state means government is callous: "Let the people become cats and dogs, without religion. Government doesn't care." That is not good government. What do you think?

Ambassador: I think, Your Eminence, there's a lot in what you say, but, you know, politics is the art of the possible.

Prabhupāda: No. No, politics means to see that people are advanced, citizens are advanced, not that they are degraded.

Ambassador: Your Eminence, I agree, but I think the duty of the government primarily is to provide conditions in which gifted people, spiritual people like you, leaders like you, can function. More than that, if the government does, it might probably even corrupt the religious . . . I don't know. Like an umpire in a game, you know, or something. Provide the conditions, provide the conditions for free speech. Not like Moscow, you know, where it is . . .

Prabhupāda: No. That is . . . just like you have got Commerce Department. Government has got. What is the duty of the Commerce Department? The government must see that the trade enterprise, commercial or industrial enterprise, they are doing nicely, properly. The government issuing license. They have got supervision. They send sometimes, what is called, inspectors. Education. Say, for education. There is educational inspector, school inspector.

They go see that the students are properly being educated in that school. Similarly, government should have expert men in the government to see that the Hindus are acting like Hindu, Muslims are acting like Muslim, and Christians are acting like Christian. The government should not be callous about religion. They may be neutral that, "Whatever religion you profess, government has nothing to do. You do nicely." But it is the government's duty to see that you are doing nicely, you are not bluffing. That is government duty.

Ambassador: Probably, as far as moral conduct is concerned, but more than that, how is it possible, you know? For the inner man in the spiritual mind, each individual can conceive his own thoughts. But the external conduct, the, the, what is called . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, no. External conduct means on religious principle.

Ambassador: This is what I was . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Harāv abhaktasya kuto . . . I . . . you can, you can . . .

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . understand Sanskrit.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one has got faith and devotion to God . . . God is one. God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is one. So religion means according to . . . not according, this is the Vedic conclusion.

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yenātmā suprasīdati

(SB 1.2.6)

One must be religious. Without being religious, he cannot be satisfied. Therefore there is confusion, dissatisfaction all over the world because . . . because people have become irreligious. If you want to keep . . . in Calcutta there was, in the American Consulate Office, I was invited. There, they have got a department: "Indo-American Cultural Society." Perhaps you know.

Ambassador: I heard about it.

Prabhupāda: I was invited there to speak: "East and West." So I explained that so far we are concerned, we have no such thing as East and West. But still, there is difference between East and West that in the Eastern countries, especially in India, even in the remotest part of the village, a cultivator, poor cultivator, he'll understand God consciousness very easily. And so far in the West . . . I talked with Professor Kotovsky. Perhaps you know.

Ambassador: Yes. In Oriental Institute.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He said: "Swāmījī, after this body's finished, everything is finished." You see? Such a big professor. He . . .

Ambassador: That is Marxist materialism.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: It is Marxist materialism, I think.

Prabhupāda: But Marxist materialism, does it mean that a congregation of some fools and rascals?

Ambassador: I . . . (indistinct) . . . true.

Prabhupāda: Does it mean they write that some congregation of fools and rascals? Such a big professor, he does not know; he cannot understand even that there is life after death, he has to accept another body, as we are accepting different bodies. I was a child. You were a child. Then I became a boy. That is different body. Different consciousness also. A child, three-four years, he talks in a different way. A boy, ten-twelve years, he talks in a different way, and a young man, educated young man, he talks in a different way. So with the change of the body, the consciousness is changing. Is it not?

Ambassador: Yes, this is true.

Prabhupāda: Children, small children, they're just like animal. The cats and dogs, just they are playing, they're also playing like that. But he, he does not belong to that category, because when he'll get . . . he'll get another body, in which he'll be intelligent. Another body, he'll be highly educated. Another body, he'll be doctorate. The cats and dogs, they'll have to wait to get that body. So with the body, we are changing our consciousness. So different body, different consciousness. Similarly, why not after death a different body, different consciousness, if you make progress? Yes. This is progress, you see. So that is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati.

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

So the people cannot understand. That means they are not dhīra, not even, according to Vedic conc . . . not even gentlemen. One who cannot understand this simple theory that, "After this body, as I have changed so many bodies, similarly, I shall change this body also." That's a fact. So dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra, one who has got brain, one who can think, he'll not be puzzled. "Yes, he has . . . death means he has changed body." Any gentle, good brain will understand. But people are so foolish now, they cannot understand. They are not educated even to understand this simple thing. This is the position of the world. Even a big professor like Kotovsky. So this is the position of our present human society.

Ambassador: But in the countries like Moscow, Soviet Union, they are hostile, against it, but in most parts of the world, they're indifferent. I mean, it's . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why Moscow? Everywhere. Moscow, they are, rather, good that they say: "We don't believe in God."

Ambassador: That's true. That's true.

Prabhupāda: But others, they say that, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I believe in God," but he does not know anything.

Ambassador: I'm afraid most of us are like that, to be honest. That's true.

Prabhupāda: I should say that Moscow are gentlemen. Because they cannot understand, they say, "Don't believe."

Ambassador: It's mūḍha-dhī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) But these rascals, they say: "Yes, I'm religious," but he's doing most irreligious activities. You see? I asked the Christian so many times that, "Your Bible says, 'Thou shall not kill.' And why you are killing?" They cannot give any satisfactory answer. This is my experience. It is clearly said, "Thou shall not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouses. What is this? The other day in London, one lady, she was showing me . . . she . . .

(aside) You were present? Broke some grass blade?

Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes, I was present.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Breaking a grass blade is equal to keeping a big, organized slaughterhouse. Just see.

Ambassador: I see.

Prabhupāda: This is their intelligence. (laughs) She has complained, "It is also killing." Supposing it is killing. Actually it is not killing. Supposing it is killing. This killing and keeping organized slaughterhouse killing is the same thing. Just see. People have become so degraded.

Ambassador: This is sophistry.

Prabhupāda: They give this example that "You also kill vegetable, just this grass blade is broken. It is killed. So it is equal to maintaining a big slaughterhouse." You see? This is going on, under the name of re . . . they, they are Christian nuns. In London they come to me, talk some time. So . . . and in India also, we see now cow killing is going on, regular slaughterhouse and . . . what can I say? You are government man. (laughs) You may take some wrong views about me. What is your opinion, personal?

Ambassador: I'm afraid I'm a very democratic person. If people, if they sincerely believe that they cannot exist without meat, they should be permitted, and once that is granted . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Ambassador: . . . you have to organize slaughterhouses.

Prabhupāda: Then, then that is the . . . our misfortune that we have lost our Indian culture.

Ambassador: Because . . .

Prabhupāda: Indian culture.

Ambassador: Your Grace, what you want is really a sort of complete . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I don't want.

Ambassador: . . . a strong, obedient, disciplined society. But the moment the disciplinarian becomes a dictator, it is . . .

Prabhupāda: It is, it is the duty of the government to see. That is the government. Strong government means . . .

Ambassador: It's the Rāma-rājya ideal, I'm not . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Strong government means that, that government should be very, very vigilant that citizens are doing their duty properly. That is the first duty. They should be given all protection. At the same time . . . just like father gives protection to the children, at the same time, very strict that they are morally and disciplinary, they are going, coming out nice.

That is father's duty. It is government's duty. If the father thinks, "Let my son go to hell. I don't care. I give them some food. That's all," is that father's duty? No. Father's duty, to arrange for their food, for their dress, for their shelter, at the same time to see that they are growing nice, not rascals. That is father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that. We see from Vedic śāstra government duty is that. Otherwise why there is need of government?

Government . . . now it is government, but formerly it was the king. The king must be representative of God. Because . . . who is God? God means nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kaṭhopaniṣad. So God, what is God? God means He's also person. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. He is also eternal, He's also cognizant. We are also eternal, we are also cognizant. But what is the difference between God and we? The difference is He maintains us. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Bahu-vacanam, nityānām, cetanānām, this is bahu-vacanam. And nityaḥ, cetanaḥ, eka-vacanam. So what is the difference between this singular number and plural number? The singular number is maintaining the plural number. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān.

So God is maintaining everyone. So difference is that He is so powerful, He can maintain every living entity. He's maintaining the elephants in Africa, who eat, at a time, forty kilos. He's supplying food. There's no scarcity of food in the jungle for the elephants. Neither there is scarcity . . . in the hole of your room, you'll find hundreds and thousands of chinti. Who is feeding them, within the hole? Unless they're eating, sleeping, the same thing are there. How they are living very nicely? But who is giving them food within the hole, a small hole? You did not provide that hole. You did not provide their food. But there are hundreds and millions of ants. They're living there within the hole very happily. Sometimes they come out. We see: "Oh, wherefrom so many hundreds coming?" So eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. That is God. He's supplying food.

So there are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. Out of that, 400,000 are human beings. Out of that, many are uncivilized. The uncivilized aborigines live in the jungle. They have no economic problem. They're also human being. They never come to city for food. They are maintaining themselves. The elephants are maintaining. The ants are maintaining. Why the civilized, a few men, they have got so problem, so many problem? Because they . . . we are not only the living entities. There are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. They're all being maintained by the Supreme Lord.

In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ (BG 14.4): "As many forms are there, in all different species," ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā, "I am the father." As father maintains the sons, as we see actually, He's maintaining. So why you are so much . . .? Our father is rich. He's not poor. God is not poor. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Six kinds of opulence fully. So why are you talking of this overpopulation, scarcity of food? Why? Actually the father is God. He's maintaining. And factually we see how many human beings, civilized human beings, are there. The other living beings are many hundred thousand times bigger quantity. If they can be maintained by God, what we have done that He'll not maintain us? He'll maintain us. He's maintaining. So many people, they say, "India is starving." I am Indian. I never see any man starving and died. I've never seen. This is simply advertisement. What is your opinion?

Ambassador: There is poverty.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: There is poverty.

Prabhupāda: Poverty, there is poverty in other countries also.

Ambassador: Also.

Prabhupāda: There, there also . . . now India has got poverty. So why in America and Europe there are hippies. Why?

Ambassador: It's an express . . . it's another type of poverty.

Prabhupāda: They're also thinking that, "We are not sumptuously fed," or something. Some demands is there. Some demand. And they are lying down, Amsterdam and here, on the street. And why? But they are coming of rich family, rich nation. Especially America. In London also, I have seen, in Regent Park, they're lying down. Police is kicking. Police is kicking: "Get up, get up!" Why? Behind them the British Empire is, British government is there. Why he's lying down there? Who has told him to . . .? Government is requesting, "If you have no home, come on, I shall give you home." In Bombay also, these, what is called? The huts?

Haṁsadūta: Huts?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: Those tent huts?

Prabhupāda: They are on the . . . you have seen in Bombay?

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We passed, when we passed while coming from aerodrome to city . . .

Ambassador: From . . .

Prabhupāda: So many thatched cottages, small. So Bombay government has given them home, that "You come here, live." But what do they . . .? They rent to some, another man, and they live in the . . . in Madras also, I have seen.

Ambassador: I know. That's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They don't like. They don't like. They want to that . . .

Ambassador: They roam, yes. It's what the gypsies did, you know.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: When they were given houses in Moscow.

Prabhupāda: So there are different prakṛtis. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). So there are different prakṛtis, different mentality. They want to live, eat. The eating, sleeping, mating, defending is there, but everyone has got different ideas. Just like you say, majority of people, they want to eat meat. They have got different mentality. But we don't want.

Ambassador: In India, of course, not majority, I think it's a minority.

Prabhupāda: No, no. More . . .

Ambassador: Most people are . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. In India, they're being now educated to eat meat. (Ambassador laughs) Otherwise, Indians, at least Hindus . . .

Ambassador: It is true. That's true. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Eh? They are being educated.

Ambassador: (laughing) I belong to vegetarian family. I eat meat now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, in Madras, I have seen . . .

Ambassador: Most of them . . .

Prabhupāda: Mostly they are vegetarian, strictly vegetarian. Actually, in southern India, they maintain the Hindu culture. You'll find big high-court judges, they have got tilaka.

Ambassador: That's true.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Strictly in Rāmānuja-sampradāya, or Śaiva-sampradāya they have got . . . strictly taking bath, and tilaka. In New Delhi, you'll find so many Madrasi gentlemen, big, big, high officers, they're strictly following Hindu principles.

Ambassador: You'll be surpri . . .

Prabhupāda: And still, if I am correct, in Madras they, there, there is not many Muhammadans. The Muhammadan culture could not enter . . .

Ambassador: That's very true.

Prabhupāda: . . . into Madras, southern India. And you'll find also in our Caitanya-Caritāmṛta . . . now I am translating. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to southern India, practically whole southern India became Vaiṣṇava by His preaching.

Ambassador: It is a great period of . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And all the ācāryas, they came from Southern India. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. I think Madhvācārya belonged to your province? Malaya?

Ambassador: No, Śaṅkarācārya ki . . .

Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya.

Ambassador: From Kerala. Sir, I have got a question. I have not really been able to locate when exactly Rādhā entered Hindu mythology. Because the Bhāgavatam doesn't mention. They mention only rāsa-krīḍā as a . . . before that, they were, before Gaurāṅga, Caitanya, did you . . . do you when did exactly the bhakti cult take . . . the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, I mean. They were generally the gopīs and . . .

Prabhupāda: Other ācāryas, they elevated people up to sākhya-rasa.

Ambassador: Sākhya-rasa.

Prabhupāda: It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He gave us mādhurya-rasa.

Ambassador: Mādhurya-rasa.

Prabhupāda: Therefore about Caitanya Mahāprabhu it is said, anarpita-carīṁ cirāt. Anarpita-carīṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇaḥ kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-mādhurya-rasāṁ . . .

anarpita-carīṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇaḥ kalau

samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasāṁ sva-bhakti-śriyam

hariḥ puraṭa-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandīpitaḥ

sadā hṛdaya-kandaresphuratu vaḥ śacī-nandanaḥ

(CC Adi 1.4)

It is the gift of Śacīnandana, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that Kṛṣṇa can be served in mādhurya-rasa, in conjugal love. That is Śrī Caitanya. And amongst the gopīs, Rādhārāṇī was the best gopī, foremost. Anayārādhitaḥ. This, this is mentioned in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Ambassador: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Anayārādhitaḥ.

Ambassador: Oh, this is the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Anayārādhitaḥ. When Kṛṣṇa disappeared from rāsa-līlā, rāsa dance, then gopīs went out to search Him out, and at that time they saw that one gopī is most beloved by Kṛṣṇa. Anayārādhitaḥ. Therefore "Rādhā."

Ambassador: Anayārādhitaḥ?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: I do not know what we can do here, Your Grace, but we will be very happy to help them if they want any special material like ḍāl or any vegetables or . . . whatever it is . . . I think they are quite well . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. We, we, we have no fixed income.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa has given us opportunity. Our books are selling . . . you have seen our books?

Ambassador: I've seen them in Moscow. One gentleman had a complete set. So I have glanced through them. Especially the Bhagavad . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is?

Ambassador: . . . translation, yes. And also the Bhāgavatam, also.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Ambassador: Yes, this one, yes.

Prabhupāda: This is published by Macmillan Company. We are selling about more than one lakh copies per year through Macmillan Company. Yes. Similarly, we are selling our other books. (aside) Bring . . .

Ambassador: The complete set I have seen. They designed also the other . . . Bhāgavatam, and also the other . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not yet complete. Bhāgavatam will be finished in sixty volumes.

Ambassador: Oh, sixty.

Prabhupāda: We have published only six volume. Our manuscript is ready, but it requires great amount of money to publish.

Ambassador: And also . . .

Prabhupāda: But we are satisfied that in English-reading public, in Australia and America, in England, Europe—we are publishing in different languages—people are accepting our books very nicely. And lately that one distributor . . .

Ambassador: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: This. No, not this. Where is that catalog?

Haṁsadūta: Brockridge, Keenan and Hall?

Prabhupāda: Ah, ah?

Haṁsadūta: Catalog? I think we must have left that in London.

Prabhupāda: They are also distributing our books, Macmillan Company. People are . . . now there will be a big meeting on the 12th September, how to organize. Because this kind of literature was there; there was none before this. The bhakti cult, this was never presented to the Western countries.

Ambassador: Yes, yes. Mostly it was Vivekananda's explanation.

Prabhupāda: Vivekananda did not know anything about bhakti.

Ambassador: No, I mean he just, literally, it's not bhakti at all. Yes, it is . . .

Prabhupāda: Neither Vivekananda nor any svāmī, That is the, I mean to say, regrettable fact. They, actually . . . even Dr. Radhakrishnan, he could not present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You see? He's impersonalist, and he presented in a different way, and now Professor . . . Dr. Pirindher . . .?

Haṁsadūta: Pilinder.

Prabhupāda: He said, he came to see me that, "Now we have rejected Dr. Radhakrishnan."

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because everyone has speculated in his own way. Therefore we have presented Bhagavad-gītā as it is. And if you have got time, we can read some of the portions, how we have presented as it is. So people are liking this, as it is. Otherwise, Bhagavad-gītā is well known in the Western country, all over Europe. But because it was not presented as it is, there was not a single devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You find out, the whole history. Bhagavad-gītā is meant for making the reader a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Is it not?

Ambassador: That's true.

Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So who can become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa unless he's a devotee? So it is a transaction between God and His devotee. That's a fact. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). These are the clear declaration. He's asking everyone, "Just become My devotee. Always think of Me. Offer Me obeisances." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. "Worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru. He, He is deprecating the worship of demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ.

(aside) Find out this verse. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20).

Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23): "Less intelligent persons, they simply worship the demigods." This is the statement.

Ambassador: Most of . . . well, I was a very political person. I must be very honest with you.

Prabhupāda: No, I'm talking of . . .

Ambassador: To me, Gītā means Gandhi's Gītā, which said in a very distorted, very limited version . . .

Prabhupāda: Gandhi did not know anything about Bhagavad-gītā.

Ambassador: (laughs) I understand him the most.

Prabhupāda: Well, you . . . Gandhi may give his opinion, but why he should give through Bhagavad-gītā?

Ambassador: I know. Anāsakta-yoga is really . . .

Prabhupāda: He should not take advantage of . . . that is being done. Everyone is taking advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gītā and he's expressing his own opinion.

Ambassador: That's true.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. We want to stop this nonsense. If you have got opinion, you write different book.

Ambassador: Yes. But not . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you should misuse Bhagavad-gītā?

Ambassador: The devil can quote the scripture for his purpose.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: That's what Shakespeare said Sir, "The devil can quote the scripture for his purpose."

Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes. That's a fact. Yes, why you should try to introduce your philosophy, now, say, for Gandhi's nonviolence? Where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gītā?

Ambassador: (laughs.) It's . . . yeah, this is true. Ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ, dharmo 'hiṁsā tathaiva ca.

Prabhupāda: So our, our point is that you may express your own op . . . everyone has got right to, especially Mahatma Gandhi. He was actually a great personality. There is no doubt about it. But so far Bhagavad-gītā is concerned, he did not know anything. But from his behavior, it was seen that at heart he was a devotee. Yes. At heart he was a devotee. Yes. Because he was chanting . . .

Ambassador: Yes, he, of course, shares with you this belief in chants. That we noticed, yes, very much in . . .

Prabhupāda: That raghupati rāghava rājā rāma.

Ambassador: Vaiṣṇavism.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So that . . . but maybe for politics he has explained like that. Now what is that verse?

Pradyumna:

kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ

prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ

taṁ taṁ niyamam āsthāya

prakṛtyā niyatāḥ svayā

(BG 7.20)

"Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Next verse.

Pradyumna:

yo yo yāṁ yāṁ tanuṁ bhaktaḥ

śraddhayārcitum icchati

tasya tasyācalāṁ śraddhāṁ

tām eva vidadhāmy aham

(BG 7.21)

"I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship the demigods, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to some particular deity."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then next?

Pradyumna:

sa tayā śraddhayā yuktas

tasyārādhanam īhate

labhate ca tataḥ kāmān

mayaiva vihitān hi tān

(BG 7.22)

Prabhupāda: That also kāmān. Whatever benediction they get, that is sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. They cannot give it independently.

(aside) (bangs on desk) You can keep it here. These six volumes are already published.

Ambassador: Oh, I see, Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: But, uh, no, this is Bhāgavatam.

Ambassador: Śrī Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Similar, another fifty-four volumes is to be published.

Ambassador: Oh, it's a tremendous undertaking.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Ambassador: Whatever might be the difference of opinion about the, you know, the subtleties, you see, this itself is very great.

Prabhupāda: And we have given each meaning of. You can see the Sanskrit verse, how we have explained. Here and in America especially, as soon as they see, they purchase the whole set, six copies. You see?

Ambassador: Beautiful. Very, very elegant English also.

ātma-tattva-viśuddhy-arthaṁ

yad āha bhagavān ṛtam

brahmaṇe darśayan rūpam

avyalīka-vratādṛtaḥ

(SB 2.9.4)

And then you, you make it easy. Actually, it's . . .

Prabhupāda: Transliteration also.

Ambassador: . . . it's for students also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Transliteration.

Ambassador: Yes. Transliteration and then (Sanskrit) and then for the . . .

Prabhupāda: Translation.

Ambassador: . . . viccheda. How long will Your Divine Grace be here?

Prabhupāda: Four days?

Haṁsadūta: It's on the 11th. Eleventh morning we're leaving, back to London.

Ambassador: Back to London. And you visiting only Sweden this time?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: Not Copenhagen or Oslo?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda attem . . . he traveled to Paris, and also, previously, to Amsterdam and Germany, in years previously.

Ambassador: This temple is going to be a permanent situation, this particular building, or . . .?

Devotee: Yes.

Ambassador: Or somewhere.

Devotee: In the beginning stage, yes.

Ambassador: Yes, then you'll have to locate something.

Prabhupāda: So practically single-handed I am trying to give this original Indian culture to the world. And nobody's helping me. Neither, if some rich man wants to help me, government will not allow to help me.

Ambassador: Oh, yes, especially . . .

Prabhupāda: Now just like Sir Padampat Singhania of Kanpur, he promised that "You just construct a nice temple in New York." He wanted to give the money, and the government will not allow.

Ambassador: Oh, foreign exchange.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not allow. I made correspondences with the government. The last reply was that "You can raise fund locally, but you cannot take money from here." Now who will pay? Of course, these boys are paying me. We are getting . . . now recently, one boy, you know his name, George Harrison. He's a very famous singer.

Ambassador: Yes.

'Prabhupāda: So he has purchased for me one house, fifty-five lakhs worth. But what . . . no Indian could help me. At £220,000. So it is equivalent to fifty-five lakhs.

Ambassador: But I'm told that you have fifty-five temples in the West . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why fifty? More than fifty. In USA we have got about fifty temples. And Australia, also, we have got five temples. And Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and . . .

Devotee: Perth.

Prabhupāda: Perth. And Darwin.

Ambassador: Darwin also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we had very gorgeous Ratha-yātrā ceremony in Australia. In London also. You know that? Ten thousand people participated, and we distributed prasādam.

Ambassador: On the 12th you'll have it in London.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: This big meeting will be in London, on the 12th.

Haṁsadūta: That is another meeting. Our Ratha-yātrā was held on July 8th in London.

Ambassador: Yes, that's right.

Haṁsadūta: July 8th. And simultaneously in San Francisco and in Sydney. All over the world.

Prabhupāda: And during Janmāṣṭamī, the . . .

Ambassador: Ah, Janmāṣṭamī.

Prabhupāda: The, the ambassador, Mr. Rasagotra . . .

Ambassador: Rasagotra.

Prabhupāda: He came. He's very nice man.

Ambassador: Yes. He suffered, you know.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: In personal life also, he has suffered.

Prabhupāda: One of his sons died.

Ambassador: That's what I was telling. He's a very good man. His wife is also coming from a very religious family, like what Your Grace said, you know. His wife's grandfather was one of the real sādhus, you see. He lived in a . . . he was a judge, but he was also a yogī.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Our history, we find so many gṛhasthas, householder kings, rājarṣi. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Rājā, king, at the same time, ṛṣi. This was the king. Just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, rājarṣi. He's a king, but ṛṣi. You read that portion. Yes. The government of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, how they were happy, just see. Kāmam, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). Parjanya. Parjanya means cloud. Yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ. The, all our necessities come from the rain. Now there is scarcity of rain. What the government can do or the scientists can do? And if there is no rain, then all your plan is finished.

Ambassador: Yes, that's true.

Prabhupāda: All his plan is finished.

(aside) Read it.

Ambassador: Anāvṛṣṭi, avṛṣṭi-bhuj.

Prabhupāda: And that is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: anāvṛṣṭi, durbhikṣa and kara-pīḍita. One side, there will be no rain, and there will be scarcity of food grain, and government will tax heavily. In this way people will become mad, and they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest. This is the foretelling of it. This is going to happen. Actually, people are being perplexed in that way. There is scarcity of food . . .

Ambassador: Yes, there is.

Prabhupāda: . . . and there is scarcity of rain, and government tax is increasing every year. Read that.

Pradyumna:

kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ

sarva-kāma-dughā mahī

siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ

payasodhasvatīr mudā

(SB 1.10.4)

"During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."

Prabhupāda: Now, happy attitude. Now the cow are going to be killed. They know it, that "We are going to be killed." They're also intelligent living entity. So how they can be happy? If some human being concentrated in a camp, and they know that "We are going to be killed," can they be happy? So if one is not happy, if the cow is not happy, can she supply sufficient milk? No. No. Therefore just they were happy.

Therefore milk was supplied so much that the grazing ground became wet with milk. Muddy. With milk, not with water. So we, we have no intelligence how to live. We . . . our Bhagavad-gītā says, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya vaiśya. Means kṛṣi-go-rakṣya, to protect cows. Nowadays not to protect cows—to kill cows. Just see, business. Vaiśya means businessman. So vaiśya's business is kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). But no go-rakṣya. Cutting the throat of go. This kind of sinful activities are going on, and they want to be happy. Instead of giving protection to the cows . . . in the Bible also it is said that the animals are given under the protection of the human being.

Devotee: Man, yes.

Prabhupāda: Man. The protection means to kill them. Just see. They have interpreted like that, that "The animals have been given to us to kill them and eat." This is their interpretation.

Ambassador: Swāmījī, I have taken so much already . . . you have been so kind.

Prabhupāda: No, it is very kind of you that you have come.

Ambassador: No, it's all on you.

Prabhupāda: Give him prasāda.

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, we're preparing prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Please.

Haṁsadūta: Purīs and nice rice.

Prabhupāda: So we are simply trying to revive people's dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So every sane man, every good government, everyone should come forward to help this movement. It is not a personal affair. We are not presenting that, "I am avatāra. I am God." We are presenting science, philosophy. You see? Why we are taking so much trouble to write so many books? If we . . .

We want to convince people through science, philosophy, logic, religious principle, by practical behavior. All these boys are being trained up not to have any illicit sex, not to eat meat and not to take any intoxication up to tea, coffee, cigarette, and not to indulge in gambling. They're doing that. So we are making man of character, man of religion, man of philosophy. Why people should not cooperate with us? We are not presenting any blind, so-called religious faith. No. That is not our business. Our business is caitanyera-dayā kathā karaha vicāra. You understand little Bengali? You understand Hindi.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda:

caitanyera-dayā kathā karaha vicāra

vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra

(CC Adi 8.15)

If you are sane man, if you give due consideration and then give your judgment, then you'll find that it is wonderful. Caitanya-dayā kathā karaha vicāra. We don't say that you take it blindly. No. Vicāra. After full logic and consideration you accept, not blindly. But if you do that, you'll see it is wonderful. It is wonder . . . so why those who are advanced in education, they should not take this movement seriously and try to understand seriously and cooperate with us? It is not a blind thing. So . . . actually, from government level we are not getting any support. Not . . . I don't speak in India. Anywhere.

Ambassador: Yes, I am aware of the government problem.

Prabhupāda: Eh? Because they think, "Oh, it is religious." Not only they are . . . in America there are big, big foundation. As soon as we submit some petition, "Help us," "No, no, we don't help any religious movement." That's all. We don't get any help. Simply Kṛṣṇa has given us this chance of selling these books. That's all. Nobody's cooperating. Rather, when our people go to sell these literature and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they're arrested and harassed.

Ambassador: I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: That is because of, I think, a lot of confusion with the drug movement, hippies and all of this . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh. But . . . it may be . . . you might have been cheated by counterfeit money in some place. Does it mean there is no good money? What is this reason? "Because I have been cheated by some man, he gave me some counterfeit money, therefore I'll not touch money any more. No. Any . . . no, that's all. I don't like." What is this? He must judge whether it is counterfeit or real. That is required. So if you can help us in some way or other, try to help us. Otherwise we shall go on with this single-handed. But I am not getting any help from any other source. Then this movement had been . . . would have been very, very rapidly progressing. It is progressing, but . . . because we don't get any support. Lord Buddha's movement was spread because King Ashoka supported.

Devotee: Christ.

Ambassador: Christ also? Constantine?

Devotee: Protestantism, yes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: The Protestant movement also, when they broke away from the Catholic church, the kings would protect the movement and fight to protect.

Prabhupāda: It is king's duty.

Ambassador: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: But we are . . . your Grace small people. We can only, we cannot go beyond the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I know.

Ambassador: But as individuals we'd be very happy to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, even if we approach higher authorities . . . our men in New Delhi saw Indira Gandhi.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. She said that, "This is the position, that we are secular. We cannot support." Of course, we want simply Kṛṣṇa's support. And we are increasing. We are not decreasing. The movement was started in 1966.

Ambassador: Oh, only?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: That's tremendous.

Prabhupāda: Now it is all over.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: All over the world. From this Sweden to Australia, New Zealand, North and South. And all round the world.

Ambassador: What about Germany also?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's in charge of this zone.

Ambassador: The Germans are very . . .

Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have a temple in Berlin and Munchen, and Hamburg and Heidelberg.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not discouraged. We are not discouraged. But sometimes we are sorry that such a nice movement . . .

Ambassador: Is not true . . . we supported. I mean, I . . . we have this dilemma. I'm being very honest with you. First, we have got the dilemma of choosing the right thing, you know, because so many people claim to speak about reviving Hinduism.

Prabhupāda: But, as, as you find out . . . just like you issue license to medical practitioner, registered medical. Why don't you see that which movement is genuine? That is the duty of the government. But the government is also, they're unaware about which one is actually . . .

(devotees bring in prasāda)

Ambassador: Oh, I'm . . . I'm very grateful to you, but this is, it is a meal.

Devotee: Jaya. It is our pleasure.

Prabhupāda: You can keep here.

Ambassador: I'll take the real prasāda. I'll be happy.

Prabhupāda: No, you can take. It is all real prasāda.

Ambassador: But, you know this, to us is, we call in Kerala, this is called tryamṛta.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Ambassador: Tryamṛta is sugar and honey and . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Ambassador: . . . sugar and grapes.

Prabhupāda: Pañcāmṛta, we have got.

Ambassador: Hmm . . .

Prabhupāda: Tryamṛta.

Ambassador: Yes. All this is prepared by these young men? (eating)

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. One thing I can request you, that you give us, some of . . . some of our men, going to India, missionary visa.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So that they can stay there. Because we have now four, five temples, and I require their assistance to maintain.

Ambassador: In India.

Prabhupāda: In India. So if you kindly give some of our men the missionary visa, it will be very kind of you. It is missionary.

Ambassador: I'll immediately write and find out, because it is a very logical thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: Because we give them to other religions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not this? So if you kindly help in this way. That is within your power.

Ambassador: I'll simply write it. Of course.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there is no use of writing. You can do it. (Ambassador laughs) We can immediately submit some of the names, and you can give us.

Ambassador: Of course, from Sweden, I mean, it depends upon the nationality. People can go for three months without any visa.

Prabhupāda: No, that is different thing. But missionary visa. From missionary . . . when there's missionary, there is no question of any particular country. Because we have got men from different countries. Our men, ISKCON representative, they should be given missionary visa when they want to go. That is my . . . that much help I want.

Ambassador: Who is the representative in India of this . . .? In Delhi, of your organization? In Delhi?

Prabhupāda: In Delhi?

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is. Tejiyas.

Devotee: Tejiyas dāsa.

Ambassador: He should meet someone fairly senior in the Home Ministry.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: I can write to him, and he can also meet. I think . . .

Prabhupāda: So you can, you can give some introductory . . .

Ambassador: Yes, I will give the names, too.

(aside to devotees) You come to the Embassy.

Prabhupāda: No, visa, of course, it is to be given from here. So why you should refer to Delhi? You can use your discrimination.

Ambassador: I don't think so Your Grace. I'll see. I doubt very much. If I can exercise, I am prepared to exercise it. I know that there will be many . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So . . . no, no. Visa, visa is issued from the country . . .

Ambassador: Yeah, from the embassy, but we have got some . . . some people we can straight away issue. In some cases they would refer to India. But if we make a positive recommendation, they will agree.

Prabhupāda: So that I do not know. But visa is given by the embassy, from the local place.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like prasādam?

Prabhupāda: Later on.

Ambassador: Much too early.

Prabhupāda: So they have done nice?

Ambassador: They have done so well, you know. I feel . . .

Prabhupāda: So you kindly eat all of them.

Ambassador: I feel . . . (indistinct) . . . but I can't eat them all.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is only two.

Ambassador: I'll eat with two parāṭās.

Prabhupāda: Ah, two parāṭās.

Ambassador: Because you have done it so well.

Prabhupāda: Prasādaṁ prāpti-mātreṇa bhoktavyam. That is the Vedic injunction. Even it is brought from distant place, even it is dried up, even it is touched by the untouchable, still it should be taken immediately.

Ambassador: Yes, that's true. That's true.

Prabhupāda: Prasādaṁ prāpti-mātreṇa bhoktavyam.

Ambassador: Remember how Kṛṣṇa received Sudāmā?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: When he brought the . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: Have you been to Kerala, Your Grace?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I was in Cochin. While coming to New York, I came on ship. So my ship stopped in Cochin. Yes.

Ambassador: I see. We have got some wonderful Kṛṣṇa temples, Viṣṇu temples.

Prabhupāda: Cochin?

Ambassador: In Cochin? Not in Cochin town. There is, but not very famous. But the one about ten miles from Cochin, where I come from, is one of the greatest temples, called Poornathrayesa. This is a very good . . . the Cochin royal family used to stay.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, you come from there?

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Swami Chinmayananda also comes from there?

Ambassador: Yes. Swami Chinmayananda comes from Ernakulam.

Prabhupāda: Ernakulam, yes.

Ambassador: I come from about five miles from. I actually used to know him when, before he became . . . when he was a journalist.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: I used to know him when he was a journalist.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he was a journalist?

Ambassador: Yes, before. In Dacra.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Ambassador: But is there any special, specific person who wants to go to India immediately?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: Who would like to have visa?

Prabhupāda: No, we can give you the name if . . .

Ambassador: I see. Please give me the name and the nationality. I can immediately see about or write.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you can submit immediately some of the names. Because we are organizing there, and the security department there: "Oh, your visa is now complete. You please return."

Ambassador: I know.

Prabhupāda: But who . . . we have got now temples. Who will manage that? Big, big temples I have constructed, in Navadvīpa, in Hyderabad.

Ambassador: Navadvīpa . . . of course, Navadvīpa is . . .

Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana.

Ambassador: . . . Caitanya's . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, in Vṛndāvana. We have got very, very big, big temples now. So those temples . . . the Indians are callous. They are after technology. They are not coming. So how I'll manage? How I'll manage them if they are driven away? That is my problem. But the Indian boys, they are not coming. Indian-educated . . . they are coming, but not very educated.

Ambassador: That's . . . I, I understand what you mean.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The educated Indian boys, they'll accept good service. Why they come to temple?

Ambassador: I'm sorry. You are right.

Prabhupāda: That is education. They are not prepared to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They want some good service and enjoy life. That's all.

Ambassador: It is your Gita . . . (indistinct) . . . place it . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. You can place there. What you want just now?

Ambassador: I just wanted to place it here, and then washroom.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can wash inside.

Paramahaṁsa: There's a bathroom right here. (break)

Ambassador: I'm sorry. I came immediately after lunch you know. It's really only one hour between the lunch, and one hour . . . so I'll remember this, Your Grace, and of course, I will do personally what I can. I've . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . .

Ambassador: . . . distributed the invitations to all the Indians, you see. But I'm afraid the Indians in Sweden are extremely . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Ambassador: How shall I put it? Extremely material and . . .

Prabhupāda: No, everywhere. Everywhere.

Ambassador: So I do not expect much response. I'm being very honest with you, you know.

Prabhupāda: No, everywhere. In India also. Indians are everywhere.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But they think . . . familiarity breeds contempt. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa we know. What you have got to teach us?" Although he doesn't know anything, (laughs) because he, he belongs to the country where Kṛṣṇa appeared, therefore he knows everything. That . . . you know that Hindi. Gaon ka yogi, bhikh na mile. (The yogi who does not get charity in his own town.)

Ambassador: Poetic. "The prophet is not honored in his own country."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Gaon ka yogi, bhikh na mile. (The yogi who does not get charity in his own town.) (laughs) That is this position. So do you think I shall submit some name?

Ambassador: Certainly, Your Grace, and I will look into it, and if I have got right, I will do it, or I will send . . .

Prabhupāda: No. You are . . . why you have not right? Because . . .

Ambassador: Yes, I've got . . . there are discretions.

Prabhupāda: Then, then it will be useless. Because as soon as you send to Delhi, they'll refuse. So then don't try for it. If you, if you can help personally, then we'll submit the names. Otherwise, if you go in official channel, I don't expect.

Ambassador: No, I'll look at the rules you see and . . . I can't break the rules.

Prabhupāda: So you see the rules. If you can . . .

Ambassador: I can't break the rules.

Prabhupāda: . . . then I'll submit.

Ambassador: Quite right.

Prabhupāda: Then when I shall send some of my men to know that you can? When I shall send?

Ambassador: By tomorrow afternoon.

Prabhupāda: All right. That's all right. Then I shall . . . otherwise, useless. If you officially forward, and they reply, it will be . . . no.

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I do not know why. The Christian missionaries, they get missionary visa.

Ambassador: But I would . . . if you permit me, I am still, if I find a rule, rights, I'll do it. Otherwise, I'll be very happy to write a very strong letter to the Deputy Secretary concerned, and also . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyway, in whatever way you can help. This is a difficulty for me, that there are chasing after our men.

Ambassador: I personally think that there is not much reason to . . . because we are allowing . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no reason at all.

Ambassador: And this is the . . . hypocritical.

Prabhupāda: If, if they're giving missionary visa to the Christian missionaries, what we have done? So kindly be seriously thinking and, if possible, give us. So he'll go in the afternoon and see him. If he's able, then we can send some men. And many men, they're prepared to go to India. But this botheration . . . they'll go, after spending so much money, and they'll be chased. That has become a problem. Otherwise, I have told some years ago that, "Sometimes you'll have to import brahmin from this place."

Ambassador: Looks like they are better brahmin sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ambassador: I agree with you.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Ambassador: Because there is a . . . the definition of brahmin, of course, is made by Buddha's, said (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: No, in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). And Bhāgavata says:

yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ

puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

(SB 7.11.35)

These are clear indications that brāhmaṇa is not from particular family. And Kṛṣṇa says, another place:

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo śūdrā tathā vaiśyās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ

(BG 9.32)

Everyone. Kṛṣṇa is open for everyone. Kṛṣṇa does not say that only . . . He says that kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyāḥ. Everyone is accepted. Why not the brahmins? But te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Those who are not even born in brahmin family . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, kibā śūdra kiba vipra . . .

Ambassador: Oh. Kibā śūdra kibā vipra . . .

Prabhupāda: Kibā śūdra kibā vipra nyāsī kene naya, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, tattva-vettā, sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). He becomes spiritual master. It doesn't matter what he is. Śūdra, or vipra it does not matter. The Rāmānanda Rāya, he was a śūdra. According to social position, he was a śūdra. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu took lessons from him.

Ambassador: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is in the Eighth Chapter of the Madhya Khaṇḍa.

Ambassador: So I'll remember it, sir.

Prabhupāda: Thank you, sir.

Ambassador: And if I'm able to come for some meetings, I'll come. If I do not, that means only I am busy, you know. Because it's a little busy. But I think some of the members of our embassy will come.

Prabhupāda: No, you . . .

Ambassador: No, I mean to the functions.

Prabhupāda: Functions?

Ambassador: We'll try to come whichever is we are able to come, you know, from the embassy . . .

Prabhupāda: That, of course, you are . . .

Ambassador: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much.

Ambassador: Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. So give him . . . (break) (end)