721230 - Conversation - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

721230R1-BOMBAY - December 30, 1972 - 19:01 Minutes

Prabhupāda: First of all you should know that I am not this body. Just like I am not this apartment, similarly, I am not this body. So my body is changing according to my karma. Just like according to my capacity to pay rent, my apartment is changing. Not that because I have come to the first-class apartment, and it is guaranteed that I shall continue.

If I cannot pay rent, I cannot . . . then I have to leave it, and I have to accept, what is called, hut, because I cannot pay more. So similarly, according to our karma we are getting different types of body. That Darwin theory cannot explain, because it is missing the real factor, as it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that idaṁ śarīraṁ kṣetram (BG 13.3). And one who knows this kṣetra is kṣetrajña.

So, any question regarding this subject matter? (break) Not that simply go on reading the Bhagavad-gītā. Do not try to understand by analysis. Then we shall be benefited, if we want to study Bhagavad-gītā. Not that I am giving my own interpretation and misleading all the people. No. That is not Bhagavad-gītā. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās (SB 7.5.31), a blind man is leading other blind man. One nonsense is leading another nonsense. It has no meaning.

This is science. Bhagavat-tattva-jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei 'guru' haya (CC Madhya 8.128). One who knows Kṛṣṇa factually, he is guru. Not that anyone simply he has got some knowledge of A-B-C-D, he becomes a commentator on Bhagavad-gītā. No. That will not help us. Any question? Attika prabhu, no question? You have no question?

Indian lady: You explain very nicely, Swāmījī.

Prabhupāda: You have any question? No? All right. Acchā. Thank you very much.

Devotee: All glories to . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: Every Indian, especially he has mentioned:

bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

(CC Adi 9.41)

In no other part of the world this knowledge is known. It is the duty of the Indians to understand everything perfectly and distribute this knowledge. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. They have no such books; neither they can explain. That . . . that fool is driving and may come out, that's all. That is not explanation.

So it is the prerogative of India, because in India there are so many sages, saintly person, they have left their knowledge, and one can make his life perfect and distribute this knowledge. This is the duty of India. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra. Manuṣya. Not the cats and dogs. Manuṣya, means human being. But all human being, now at the present moment they are cats and dogs. They have no knowledge. And their leaders, simply cats and dogs. That is the position.

So any sensible man will take this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and try to assimilate and make his life perfect and distribute all over the world. That is wanted. That is the need of the present day.

Indian man: Swāmījī, with so many saints in India and . . . (indistinct) . . . so good, how did we come to this stage?

Prabhupāda: First of all, you do not know who is saint. That is your difficulty. You say: "So many saints," but there is no saint at all. Do you know what is saint? You say: "So many saints," so what is the saint? What is your understanding of saint?

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, if I say: "So many rich men," so I must know who is rich man. If I say simply "so many" without knowing what is rich man, that is not perfect. Who is a saint, first of all?

Indian lady: They claim that they are saints.

Prabhupāda: They claim . . . everyone can claim, "I am saint." But you must know who is a saint. Everyone will claim that, "I am rich man." But there must be a standard of rich man, who is rich man. At least we understand that one who has got a nice bungalow, nice car, a few servants, a nice bank balance, then you can say: "Yes, it is rich man." But if I do not know who is rich man, then what is the use of speaking "so many"? First of all you must know who is a saint. How you know it? Saint, the exact meaning of saint is sādhu. Sādhu. Is it not?

Indian lady: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So in the Bhagavad-gītā you will find who is a sādhu. Sādhu, Kṛṣṇa explains that:

api cet su-durācāro

bhajate mām ananya-bhāk

sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ

(BG 9.30)

Who is mahātmā?

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha

daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ

bhajanty ananya-manaso

(BG 9.13)

Not that by stamping one becomes mahātmā. First of all know who is mahātmā, who is sādhu. Mahātmā, in another place:

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

(BG 7.19)

This is mahātmā. These are the description of mahātmā.

If I say, people may be angry. If I say the politician is not a mahātmā, then people will be angry. But see the standard definition of mahātmā. Standard definition of mahātmā, Kṛṣṇa says:

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ

(BG 7.19)

You can stamp anyone as mahātmā, but sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. That is mahātmā. What is his business? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: "Kṛṣṇa is everything," and he surrenders, he is mahātmā. One who is constantly engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is sādhu. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ.

So you must know first of all who is a sādhu; whether he's devoted to Kṛṣṇa, devoted to God. But these rascals, so-called saints, say that, "I am God." He's a rascal. He's not a sādhu. He's not saintly person; he is a demon. So we are accepting demons as mahātmā and sādhu; therefore it has fallen down. Because we are accepting the rascals, demons as sādhu and mahātmā, therefore you have fallen down. This is the reason.

We do not know who is mahātmā and sādhu. Everyone is preaching, "Why you are finding out God? Why you are going to temple? The Gods are all loitering in the street, daridra-nārāyaṇa." And you are accepting, "Oh, so nice sādhu." But you do not know. He is a demon, and you are accepting as sādhu. That is the cause of falldown. Mahātmā, sādhu, has been described, the supreme authority, Kṛṣṇa:

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ

yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ

(BG 9.14)

Tuṣyanti ca ramanti ca (BG 10.9). Their only business is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Not that "Cut down the Supreme Lord, kill the Supreme Lord, and I become Supreme Lord," falsely, and cheat the innocent people. The cheaters we are accepting, that "Here is a god, here is mahātmā, here is sādhu." Therefore it is falldown. Cheaters. Demons. Rascals. That is the cause of falldown.

Mahātmā is he that, bhajanty ananya-manaso mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ (BG 9.13). He is under the control of daivī prakṛti, not this material nature' spiritual nature. And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya-manaso: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. He is mahātmā.

We are creating all mahātmās, not demons, rascals. That is our business, Kṛṣṇa conciousness. As you are importing powdered milk from America, now you have to import all mahātmās from America. (laughter) It is a fact. Yes. Now there is no milk. So barrels and barrels of powdered milk is coming from America. Is it not?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is milk? All finished. I think three, four years ago, when I first went I had some correspondence with my friend. So I wrote this very word that, "Now India is finished this milk and so many things, they have to import from foreign countries. Now you have to import brahmins and mahātmās from foreign countries." Because I tried to make this mahātmā in this country, but still they are not prepared. They are not prepared. But these boys, these American, European boys, they are prepared. Their order . . . carry my orders as I say. They are habituated to so many bad habits; I said: "Give up," they give up.

So one must know, our Indian boys, they are not coming. They know that, "We know Kṛṣṇa, everything. Now let us learn technology." They are not even prepared to become mahātmā. Otherwise, everyone can become mahātmā. These are . . . how to become a mahātmā? The knowledge is there, the system is there, but nobody is interested. Just like two young men came here, they saw, "Ah, what is this ārati?" They went away.

There is no interest. They will go to cinema, to become cinema actor. That is the progress. And the so-called mahātmās and sādhus say: "Yes, you can do whatever you like. Yes." They have no courage to say that, "You don't do this." Then he will lose all customer. Just see. He is a durātmā, he wants some money, "You do whatever nonsense you like, you simply give me my money, that's all."

They are publicly preaching, "Yes, you can do anything. Oh, why not sense enjoyment? God has given you the senses, you enjoy." That Mahesh Yogi, he was speaking in this way, "Why the sense . . . the senses should be controlled? You have got . . . God has given you senses, you must enjoy." This is his philosophy. Vivekananda's philosophy: yata mata tata patha, "Whatever mata you have got, that's all right."

Mahatma Gandhi was approached, "Mahatmaji, why don't you ask the Muslims to stop this cow killing?" "No, how can I do? This is their religion." Now see. If you are nonviolent, if by . . . in the name of religion somebody says: "It is my religion," how can you allow it? If you want to introduce nonviolence, religion or no religion, must stop it. Somebody will go on killing that, "My religion is to cut throat." "Yes, you can go on, yes, because it is your religion." What kind of mahātmā? They are advertising . . . the government is advertising nonviolence, and ten thousand or forty thousand cows are being killed. What is this nonviolence?

We are so misled, andhā yathāndair upanīyamānā, and we are accepting these rascals and fools and rogues and demons as sādhus, mahātmās, leaders, and we are gone to hell. This is the fact.

Indian man (2): So what is the solution to it? How to know . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): How for the average man to know that and not carried by it? The average man is just led to it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, the average man is . . . now we are preaching this cult, but why they are not coming? You have kindly come, but maybe tomorrow you may not come. They're not eager to understand. They want to be misled. They want to be cheated. That is their progression. They don't want the truth. Because if he wants the truth, then his life will be spoiled.

Indian lady: Restriction.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is living an untruth. The whole world is living on meat-eating, drinking, illicit sex and gambling. And we are restricting, "No, you cannot have illicit sex, you cannot have meat-eating, you cannot indulge in intoxication." So how many people will come? "Oh, Swāmījī is very conservative," they say: "Swāmījī is very conservative, primitive. We are now advanced. We must eat three plates of meat and two bottles of wine. That is advancement of civilization." What is this nonsense talking? Yes. Some of my students left, "Oh, Swāmījī is not allowing even the primary necessities of life." That is the primary necessities of life. Rāyarāma left for this purpose.

So we cannot make any compromise. We don't make compromise. Therefore, although we are preaching all over the world, our principles are very strict. Anyone who comes seriously, "You cannot do this." Generally you can come and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that's all right.

But if you want to become my disciple, then you have to give up all these bad habits. One who agrees, then I accept him as disciple. If I would say, "Yes, you can do. God has given you senses; you go now, enjoy your senses and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," then I would have gotten millions and trillions. I don't allow that, such kind of nonsense.

All right. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Guests: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)