720913 - Conversation B - Dallas

Conversations by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720913R2-DALLAS - September 13, 1972 - 27:47 Minutes

Satsvarūpa: Some of the children are 10 years old but we have been being very strict because they are loose in their behaviour. They cannot be initiated until they are chanting 16 rounds, trying to be very strict with that but they see that others are being initiated quickly. They saw the initiation today some of the 10-year-old boys. We want the parents to initiate, "Why, why can I can I be initiated?"

Prabhupāda: Then they can be initiated.

Satsvarūpa: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: 10 years, 10 years they can be initiated . . . why not 10 years?

Satsvarūpa: As long as . . . unless they be chanting 16 rounds?

Prabhupāda: Must.

Satsvarūpa: Then they can be and in the morning.

Prabhupāda: Then how they are being initiated? If they cannot.

Satsvarūpa: I mean, our children are at gurukula.

Prabhupāda: 10 years old boy cannot chant 16 rounds?

Satsvarūpa: That has, that has been our past mistakes . . . (indistinct) . . . now it has been disciplinary should be . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. It requires some rituals, just like in the morning if you sit down and chant they should also sit down and chant. 16 rounds must be finished.

Indian Mātājī: (indistinct) . . . initiation swamiji you give some mantras . . . (indistinct) . . . what . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, in the beginning then another mantra after six months or after one year. When I see that the student is following all the rules and regulations.

Indian Mātājī: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian Mātājī: (indistinct) . . . yesterday . . . (indistinct) . . . we try to avoid the meat too, sometimes once in a while.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian Mātājī: One year . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, we cannot . . .

Indian Mātājī: So what is the tendency . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, and gambling.

Young Indian boy: What you mean by 16 rounds are 16 times around is one round?

Prabhupāda: 16 rounds is this (Prabhupāda moves some beads across his desk) you begin here:

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare

Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

This is one bead, so then go to the second, go to the third in this way you come here. That is one round, again begin from here down here, that is the second-round. In this way 16 rounds.

Indian Mātājī: From here we have been initiated by Śrī Rāma . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian Mātājī: Ramakrishna mission both of us and he has given us mantra and initiation.

Prabhupāda: That mant . . . that is your consideration we don't approve this mission. That you are initiated and eating meat.

Indian Mātājī: No that . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: These nonsense things we don't agree.

Indian Mātājī: That's what I'm asking you.

Prabhupāda: No, no this is not allowed. That is not. That is bogus. Initiation does not mean that, you must be purified.

Young Indian boy: How many beads are there in this?

Indian Mātājī: 108

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian Mātājī: Or 100 and 8 . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes 108. It must be according to the śāstra, the Ramakrishna mission they don't care for śāstra they do away with it, they have no śāstra . . . yaḥ śāstra. Find out. yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya. . . Find out this verse.

yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya

vartate kāma-kārataḥ

na sa siddhim avāpnoti . . .

(BG 16.23)

Shastra chodh karke jo kam karte hai usko siddhi-viddhi kuch nahi milti. Na sukhaṁ na parām gatiṁ. (Anyone who ignores the scriptures and acts whimsically does not attain any perfection. Na sukhaṁ na parām gatiṁ.)

Young Indian boy: Par India me aise to log meat to khate hai, Hindu hai wo to aur khate hai. (But in India people do eat meat, they are Hindu and they eat meat.)

Prabhupāda: Jahannum me jaye wo, usse hum log ko matlab kya. Śāstra me to yahi diya hai. (Let them go to hell, we do not care about such people. Śāstra says this.)

Young Indian boy: Tradition kaise shuru hui thi wo? (How did the tradition start?)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Young Indian boy: Aise meat khane ki tradition kaise shuru hui thi? (How did the tradition of eating meat begin?)

Prabhupāda: Rakshas log sikhaya. Rakshas se mile to rakshas ho jayegi aur devata se miliye to devata ho jayegi. (Demons taught it. If you mix with demons then you become a demon, and if you mix with demigods you become a demigod.) Śāstra means Vedic revealed scriptures just like Bhagavad-gītā.

Young Indian boy: Gītā.

Prabhupāda: Vedas, Upaniṣads.

Indian Mātājī: Śāstra . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pradyumna: Is this the one?

Prabhupāda: Eh? yaḥśāstra-vidhim utsṛjya? Find out this verse, yaḥśāstra-vidhim utsṛjya.

Pradyumna: Yac . . . yac śāstra?

Prabhupāda: Yaḥ śāstra.

Young Indian boy: (talking in background) . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: There is no Yah?

Pradyumna: Yaḥ śāstra.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Young Indian boy: (talking in background) . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You don't find?

Indian Mātājī: There should be some time of repeating this mālā or . . .

Pradyumna: Oh, yaḥśāstra-vidhim utsṛjya.

Prabhupāda: Ha. Time aisa koi niyamit nahi hai. Sara din rat me ap 16 rounds pura kijiye. Kabhi ek round kijiye, kabhi do round kijiye, kabhi char round kijiye par 16 pura kijiye choubis ghanta me. Choubis ghanta me zyada se zyada do ghanta lagta hai 16 rounds pura karne ke liye. To choubis ghanta me ap do ghanta Bhagavan ke liye nahi de sakti? Dena to chahiye choubis ghanta jaise ye log deta hai. Choubis ghanta Bhagavan ko surrender karte hai. Inko khana bhi Bhagavan ke liye, sona bhi Bhagavan ke liye, kam bhi karna Bhagavan ke liye. Sab. (There is no regulated time as such, the whole day and night you complete 16 rounds. Do one or two rounds, then four rounds like that but complete 16 rounds. In twenty four hours, it takes a maximum of two hours to complete 16 rounds. So in twenty four hours you cannot take two hours for God? Ideally you should dedicate all twenty four hours for God, like these people are doing. Twenty four hours thinking about God. They eat, sleep, work, everything for God.) What is that? Have you got?

Pradyumna: Yes:

yaḥśāstra-vidhim utsṛjya

vartate kāma-kārataḥ

na sa siddhim avāpnoti

na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim

(BG 16.23)

"But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according . . .

Prabhupāda: He who discards scriptural injunctions. Then?

Pradyumna: . . . and acts according to his own whims

Prabhupāda: Ha, acts according to his own whims. Then?

Pradyumna: Attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Simply waste of time. Ye Bhagavan Sri Krishna ka mukharavinda se keh raha hai. Aur Ramakrishna mission ka bolna hai jo khushi hai kijiye, usme koi . . . (indistinct) . . . nahi. Jo kuch bhi khaiye, jo kuch bhi kariye, ye koi vidhi hai. Ye Bhagavan swayam bol raha hai. (This is coming straight from Lord Kṛṣṇa's lotus mouth. Ramakrishna mission says you can do anything, you can eat anything and it does not matter, is this even a method? God is speaking this Himself.)

Young Indian boy: Agar medicine ke liye khana padhe to kya kare? (If one has to eat for medicinal purposes, then what to do?)

Prabhupāda: Medicine ka dusri bat hai. Bimari . . . (indistinct) . . . jab admi asukh ho jata hai, us samay koi niyam nahi. Bat dusri hai. Medicine ka nam se sab khate hai. Koi bolta hai humko machli nahi khane se humara ankh ka jyoti kam ho jata hai, to khub khao. (Medicine is a different matter. When a person becomes diseased, at that time there are no rules. That is a different matter. Now people eat in the name of medicine. Some people say that if I do not eat fish my eyesight will become weak, so eat a lot.)

Indian Mātājī: Nahi, humari family me, humari jo aunt hai unko TB hua tha ten years back. Unko doctor ne eggs khane ko diya to . . . (indistinct) . . . egg khane ke bad unhe to accha to laga tha. (No, in our family an aunt got tuberculosis ten years back and the doctor told her to eat eggs. After eating eggs she felt better.) But then she left after she got alright, when she got back her health.

Prabhupāda: Aisa kaun ki . . . anda khane se admi guarantee ho jayega marega nahi. (So is there a guarantee that if a person eats eggs he would not die?)

Indian Mātājī: Nahi, wo sickness thi, wo chali gayi to . . . (indistinct Hindi) (No, but the sickness left after eating eggs.)

Prabhupāda: Phir kyu aisa? Nahi nahi, hum bolta hai aj nahi to kal marega. Kaun zinda idhar rehta hai? (Then why eat eggs? We all have to die either today or tomorrow. Who lives here forever?)

Indian Mātājī: Koshish to admi karta hai na thik hone ka. (But a person tries to become healthy.)

Prabhupāda: Are koshish karo but aisa kosish kyu karo jisme pap ho? (Yes do try, but why try something that has sin.)

Indian Mātājī: Sansar me rehke sansarik jivan to hota hi hai. (In the material world one has to live materially.)

Prabhupāda: Rahega, wo ye sab bate chodo. Isiliye sab Hindustani gaya jahannum me. (Leave all these topics. This is the reason all Hindustanis have gone to hell.)

Indian Mātājī: Nahi Hindu log to bohot nahi khate hai. Hum log to bohot anda meat nahi khate hai. Hum log bhi khate hai kabhi kabhi. (No, many Hindus do not eat a lot. We also do not eat a lot of eggs and meat. We eat sometimes.)

Prabhupāda: Ye sab misguidance hone ka karan Bharatvarsh se dharma lupt ho gaya aur jahannum me jaye. Indian isilye unka dukh hai. Apna chiz sab chodh diya. Unka bap dada kabhi anda bhi khaya tha. Wo sab mar gaya tha TB se. Itna accha accha chiz hai. Kal jaisa rasagulla banaya tha. Khao rasagulla. Anda me kya hai? Khao na rasagulla. Paneer hota hai . . . paneer. Paneer me khub protein hai. Urad dal me protein hai. Chana me protein hai. (Due to all this misguidance, dharma has disappeared from Bhārat varsha and they are going to hell. They know that this is the cause of their unhappiness. They left all their own things. Did their forefathers ever eat eggs? They have all died of tuberculosis. There are so many good things. Like yesterday we made rasagullas here, at least eat that. Lots of protein in it. What is there in an egg? Paneer is there . . . paneer. Paneer has a lot of protein. Urad dāl has protein, chanā has protein.)

Indian Mātājī: Dal to hum to bohot khate hai. Nahi as a special diet hum log ko di thi doctor ne. Hum log to Indian khana bohot khate hai. Dal sabzi . . . (We eat all the dāl a lot but as a special diet given by an Indian doctor. We eat Indian food a lot. Dāl sabzi . . .)

Prabhupāda: Nahi. Wo to uska sab . . . dal me, roti me khub protein hai. (No. In Dāl, in roti there is a lot of protein.)

Indian Mātājī: Jab kahi . . . (indistinct) . . . kahi jao to bohot. (It becomes difficult when we go somewhere, it is very . . .)

Prabhupāda: Ye to sab jab se Angrezi davai shuru hui hai na, ye sab . . . (indistinct) . . . Pehle to. Mai to sara jivan me kabhi anda machli ye sab dekha bhi nahi. Abhi humara seventy-seven years hai, mar gaye kya? Abhi tak kaam . . . (This has happened ever since English medicine has started, all these problems have started. In my entire life, I have not even looked at eggs, fish etc. I am seventy seven years old now, did I die? I am still working . . .)

Indian Mātājī: Ap blessed hai. (You are blessed.)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian Mātājī: You are blessed.

Prabhupāda: Everyone can be blessed, why I am?

Devotees: (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (laughter) If I can be blessed then you can be blessed also, I am also like you. How these boys are becoming blessed?

Wo to shuru se hi unka anda aur go mas khana unka shuru se ma bap sikhaya tha. Ye kaise chodh diya? Jo chodne ko nahi chahta hai wo idhar udhar ka bat karta hai. (Although from the beginning, their parents teach them to eat eggs and beef. How have they stopped? One who does not want to stop eating talks this and that.)

Indian Mātājī: Hum log kaise nahi khate? Us samay meri aunty jo thi . . . (indistinct) . . . bimar ho gayi tab chodh diya tha . . . (indistinct). Bimari se unko . . . (indistinct) . . . acche nahi the isliye. (How could we avoid eating? At that time our aunt . . . (indistinct) . . . fell sick then she left . . . (indistinct) . . . from that sickness . . . (indistinct) . . . was not feeling well, that's why.)

Devotee: One question?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: One question Śrīla Prabhupāda is . . . (indistinct) . . . hasn't guided me what to do when the children grow older, when they approached the age of marriage.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: How should it be done?

Prabhupāda: Oh, let them grow old, now they are all minors, four years, five years, six years that consideration we shall see when they are 16 years old.

Devotee: 16.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: For both men and women?

Prabhupāda: Man 24 years. According to Vedic system, girls 16 years and boys 25, they should be married. There must be difference of age 8 to 10 years. That is nice. And before that none of them should have sex life. Then it will be good, healthy and they should simply engage themselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then spiritually, mentally, bodily they become grown up. That should be our . . .

In brahmacārī life there is no sex life, in vānaprastha there is no sex life, in sannyāsa there is no sex life. Out of the four stages in three stages there is no sex life. Only in the married, young married couples, they are allowed sex life, no other. Neither the students, nor the retired, nor the sannyāsīs.

Devotee: The next question that . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa tyāgena yamena (SB 6.1.13). tapasā brahmacaryeṇa, tapasā the human life is meant for tapasyā, not to become like cats and dogs. Then what is the difference between cats and dogs? That is Vedic civilisation, tapasyā.

nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛ-loke

kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhajāṁ ye

tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattva

yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam

(SB 5.5.1)

This is the instruction of Ṛṣabhadeva, here he is instructing his children, 100 sons. "My dear boys, this human form of life is not meant for working very very hard like hogs and dogs to satisfy the senses." The modern civilisation is they are being taught to work very very hard day and night only for sense gratification. They have no other way, even if one is working so hard what is their aim? Sex life that is all. I was seeing one signboard, what was that? "Topless girls," I enquired what is that topless girls, "they are naked," that's all . . . does that mean topless girls?

Devotee: Yes Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Just see. What is this nonsense? They are working day and night hard like cats and dogs and at the night and it is said, "open up to 4pm, you come here and have sex life," that is all. This is the modern civilisation, the hog's civilisation. The hog there is loitering in the street. Suar to dekha hoga. Idhar hai nahi, humara Bharat me hai. Din bhar . . . (You must have seen a pig. You do not find them here, but in India we can see. The whole day . . .)

Whole day and night, "Where is stool, where is stool, where is stool, where is stool." And as soon as he gets stool he gets a little strength immediately no discrimination mother, sister, daughter—sex. This is hog. These are nature's instruction and here is your representative if you don't discriminate of sex life and eat anything no discrimination of eating and sex then you are this hog. Don't claim that you are human being, that is nature's instruction, "Here is your representative, you see?"

He has no discrimination of eating, he is eating anything up to stool. And getting fat because stool has, contains all the hydrophosphites chemical. Have you analysed stool? Yes, this is medical opinion, stool has got all the hydrophosphites, if one can eat stool he gets very quickly fatty and Germany devised a plan.

Aiye, aiye . . . (Please come, come . . .) devised a plan to take out fat from stool and they were taking. They did not waste stool, do you know any of you? Yes. Just like markarine or is it. Marga . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Margarine?

Prabhupāda: Margarine?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is made from oil.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is imitation butter.

Prabhupāda: So they were making butter from stool, generally . . . yes, synthetic. This is science, science means you eat stool, butter from stool . . . Manuṣya-jīvana jo hai tapasya karna ke liye. (Human life is meant for austerity.) Just to, for this reason in India we find tapasyā, renunciation tapasyā. All big big kings, the Pāṇḍavas so powerful just as soon as because all their sons were lost in the fight so they were waiting for somebody. As soon as Parīkṣit Mahārāja their grandson became grown up immediately handed over charge of everything.

This is Vedic civilisation not that up to the end of life, so long one is not fired. Just like our Mahatma Gandhi until he was fired he would not give up the post. I've seen these politicians, they are so much attracted with this power of politics. Even they are old enough, according to Vedic civilisation, pañcaśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet. As soon as one attains 50 years he must give up family life.

He will go away from home simply accompanied by his wife and in that period there is no sex simply husband-and-wife go from pilgrimage to pilgrimage and again come home, live there for two months again go away. In this way when the man is completely unattached he sends back the wife home that you live under you grown up children and he takes sannyāsa. That is Vedic civilisation, it is not that unless death forces him to leave family life he is not prepared. That is not Vedic civilisation. Everyone has to voluntarily give up family life, pañcaśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet . . .

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh no. Oh no.

Indian man: How can we leave at the age of 50 in the home?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: How can we leave at the age of 50 in the house? When we have not even educated our children and we live in a small community.

Prabhupāda: Well you can educate your children. Suppose you marry at the age of 25 years with a grown-up girl, you get a child within one year and when you are 50 years old the child is 25 years old. So you can entrust your family affairs to the grown-up child and retire.

Indian man: Yeah if one marries at the age of 25.

Prabhupāda: So why does he not? Marriage must be finished for boys 25 years for girls 16 years. That is Vedic civilisation. We have created all problems and in this country there is no marriage, there is no marriage. All the girls are without husbands and government is supplying their welfare, donation. Encouraging them and what they can do? They are unprotected. This social system is very bad system.

Polygamy is not allowed. Even by calculation if there are 300 girls and 100 boys then how each girl can get a husband?

Therefore Hindus, according to Vedic civilisation the kṣatriyas especially they were marrying more than one wife, just like Kṛṣṇa married 16,000 wives. Of course he was God that is a different thing. But do you think that Kṛṣṇa set a bad example by marrying more, wives? No. That was allowed, now they have made new Hindu code law but according to Manu-saṁhitā the higher castes especially the brahmins, kṣatriyas and the vaiśyas they can marry more than one wife.

It means that generally the female population is greater than the man and if we want at the, if the father has the responsibility then the girl as soon as she attains puberty before attaining puberty the father must find out a husband and give her in charge of the husband. So long she is, I mean to say, very young she is under the care of father and as soon as she attains youth, when sex appetite is very strong she must be given in charge of her husband and when she is old she must be taken care of by the grown-up children. For women three stages but they are always dependent, na striyaṁ svatantratām arhati, that is the injunction of the Manu-saṁhitā. Women should not have independence they should be protected.

And still we see in India women under the protection either by the father or by the husband or by sons they remain very happily. Even Kuntī she was dependent on her five sons the Pāṇḍavas, mother of Arjuna. She was not ordinary woman, she had so many qualifications but still she was dependent on the sons. They lost their kingdom, they were banished the five Pāṇḍavas. Kuntī was not banished but because she was dependent on sons she also went with the sons.

Sītāji, Sītāji, Rāmacandra was ordered by his father to go to the forest but she was not ordered, Sītā, she was king's daughter and king's wife so why she accepted all the tribulation of the husband? She also went with Rāmacandra and because she went with Rāmacandra so many mishaps, there was fight with Rāvaṇa if she would not have gone, (laughs) then Rāvaṇa would have been saved.

But it is the duty of the wife, husband is going to the forest the wife must go. Although Rāmacandra denied that, "you remain, I am going, I am all right", she said, "no I cannot do it". This is Vedic culture, ardhāṅganī, wife must remain with the husband always. Half body, wife is half body. And the husband also, I mean to say, leaves wife under the care of the sons when they are grown-up, this is Vedic civilisation. (pause)

So I want to talk with Mr Bajaj, you can . . . (break) (end)