701214 - Conversation A - Indore

Conversations by Date, 1970

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

(The text on this page was previously the second part of: 701213 - Conversation A - Indore)

701214R1-INDORE - December 14, 1970 - 67:40 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Utsāhan, dhairyāt. Are you realizing the distinction between this association and others?

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you should realize. That is realization. We are trying to create a real spiritual path, not bogus, for livelihood. India's falldown is due to that spirit, that everyone takes everything for livelihood, that's all. Not only India, everywhere. India especially because poverty-stricken. So they take religion also as livelihood. Just like this Akhila Saheb. He wanted to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for livelihood. Do you know that?

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: How? How it was? No, you do not know. He was proposing that "I know how to cure disease by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So he wanted to go to (chuckles) foreign countries to take this profession. That means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort of thinking is just against the purity of our movement: to utilize Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for curing disease. (aside) Oh, it will not stay.

Haṁsadūta: No. If we put it on the window. On the window it will stay. It won't stay on the wall.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Haṁsadūta: If he puts it on the window it will stay.

Prabhupāda: Window means it will be dark.

Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think that . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea, it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will take charge of this task? That is to be found out. You write to the . . .

Haṁsadūta: GBC?

Prabhupāda: GBC.

Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . because newspapers . . . so many newspapers have come out within the last three or four years. Of course, most of them are hippie groups, but they have become . . . people are very anxious to read something from different angle of vision.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: They are tired of old newspapers. So if we present a newspaper with our angle of vision, Kṛṣṇa consciousness...

Prabhupāda: So immediately you write to the GBC members.

Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . but the articles that will be in the newspaper, they will be exactly like other newspapers? Who will write them?

Prabhupāda: No, articles . . . daily newspaper means there must be news. News you can purchase from the news collecting company. They will supply. At very cheap price they'll supply. And you take advertisement. Yes. You'll cover your expenses by getting advertisement and make sufficient profit. Newspaper starting is not a losing business provided you can organize. Just like ordinary newspaper, they give . . .

In daily news . . . people want to learn daily news, and they supply huge quantity. And those who are advertiser, they are simply concerned how many copies are issued. If you issue 100,000's of copies, then you can charge for each page thousand dollars. They will pay. Two thousand dollars they will pay.

Haṁsadūta: That means in each city we would have to have our own local press.

Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. You can arrange with any newspaper place. You simply supply your matter, they will print. Just like we are getting from Japan, similarly, make your own layout and supply them. Immediately, within two hours, everything is complete.

Haṁsadūta: But a daily newspaper has to turn out daily, so it takes time to transport it from one city to another city.

Prabhupāda: Well, from every city we can publish. Every city there is a newspaper place.

Devotee (4): (indistinct) . . . tend to buy local newspapers. And weekly's are often national, just like the national . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to organize. First of all let us publish in one city, big city, like New York, like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world's big cities. In India only two cities are big, Calcutta and Bombay, important. If you publish simultaneously, Calcutta . . . Delhi is given importance due to capital; otherwise not important as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without government offices it is a dead city.

Just like Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the President it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta, Bombay is really important city in India: big business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all cultural, everything—Calcutta and Bombay. Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And Calcutta was very, very important city. But this Calcutta man, they create sometimes situation, very complicated.

So once in 1905 the same situation was there, politically. Sir Surendranath Banerjee made . . . Surendranath Banerjee's movement, partition of Bengal. Lord Curzon, he wanted to divide Bengal, make it East Bengal and West Bengal. And Surendranath Bannerjee . . . he is the practically father of Indian politics. Gandhi's not. He was. He was. And in the beginning, in European circles he was famous. He was called "Surrender-not." (laughter)

The spelling of the name, s-u-r-e-n-d-e-r, Surendranath. In Parliament he was known as "Surrender-not." He was a very powerful politician. So there was trouble in Calcutta; so therefore they transferred, 1911, capital to Delhi. Otherwise, from the very beginning of British occupation, Calcutta was the capital. You have seen the government viceroy's house near that Hamilton building where you were trying to purchase.

Haṁsadūta: The government house?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is better than Buckingham Palace. Such a big house.

Haṁsadūta: Oh, the governor's house. The governor's house?

Prabhupāda: Yes, governor's house.

Haṁsadūta: It's surrounded just like made . . .

Prabhupāda: A big garden. Yes. That was viceroy's house. Now it is dilapidated. Otherwise, formerly it was very, very nice. Huge palace in India. Lord Curzon's policy was to bring one of the princes from England and make him king of India.

Haṁsadūta: King of India.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family's son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Curzon was very nice.

Haṁsadūta: That never happened.

Prabhupāda: The same thing. The parliamentary members . . . just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so-called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy . . . I have said. That day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the government of the asses," because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government.

So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate rājan sa kim asnu pahanam. These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still lap the shoes?" (laughter) You cannot change his habits. Sva . . . yasya bhāvasya na sa sudurate kramaḥ. Anyone's habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and lap the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change. Only by spiritual understanding one can be . . .

Haṁsadūta: Cāṇakya Paṇḍita . . . I have seen that book, and he says in his book that if a crow sits on a high plinth, he says it doesn't become . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you make a crow . . . the crow generally sits on the roof of the house, but that does not mean he has become a great man—"How great I am, a very beautiful bird."

Revatīnandana: The symbol of the Democratic party in America is the ass.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. As soon as you . . .

Revatīnandana: Their symbol is an ass. They have a symbol.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Because they are asses.

Revatīnandana: The Republican party is elephant, and the Democratic party is an ass, a donkey.

Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote for the asses? According to Vedic civilization there was democracy, but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned Brahmins and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king was himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmins. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see.

And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king, they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned, but his son was on the . . . just like Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa, but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned, but from his family, either his son or brother or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was.

So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned Brahmin and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy . . . that Lord Curzon studied it, that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so-called states . . . now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on.

So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement, all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom: "No more kingdom, because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therefore they have taken . . . the zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions.

You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me. We saw one house for purchasing. That was a big zamindar's house, Tagore Thakur. You saw? Yes. If you have saw . . . how nicely it was. When they were in opulence in our childhood, oh, it was a house to be seen. There are many houses. Just like in England the lord families. In Ascot, where we stayed, that was also lord family's house. Now Yoko is ocupying, a third-class Japanese girl. She has become the queen of the house.

And how third class, low grade. It is the sitting room, and a naked picture has . . . how much degraded people have become. How this man is daring to hang that picture in his sitting room so that everyone who comes sees. How much low-graded they are. They want change, but because they have no . . . (indistinct) . . . education, they are going to the animal sphere. That is hippie movement. Yes. From animal standard they become civilized. The same story, punar muṣika bhāvaḥ. You know that story? "Again become mouse."

Haṁsadūta: Oh, yeah. I've heard that.

Prabhupāda: The story is a mouse came to a saintly person, "Sir, I am in trouble. If you kindly release me." "What is that trouble?" "A cat, they are after me. I am always at risk of life." "So what do you want?" "You also make me a cat." "All right. You become a cat." Then again he came. "Sir, again the complaint is here." "What is that?" "Dogs are chasing me." "Then what do you want?" "I want to become a dog." "All right. You become a dog." In this way he came up to the tiger by the benediction of . . . and when he became a tiger, he was . . . (snarling sound) (laughter) Just like our Brahmānanda Prabhu. "All right. Again become mouse." (laughter) You see?

So these civilization is like that. They became tiger, and they are so much badly trained up that they have to become again a mouse. That is the way. That is the way of nature. If you don't improve yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you again become the stool worms. The human form of life is an opportunity to come out of this cycle of birth and death, but if one does not take—these are the statements in Padma Purāṇa—then he loses the chance. They do not know what is life, how life is rotating. Talking nonsense, "I am God. Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? This is written by man." How much low-graded people have become.

They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God," "I am this," "I am that," "I am free," "I am . . ." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm.

Now we begin. It is not difficult. Simply the layout should be sent to different parts, and they will make immediately plate, and that will be paper. Daily you have to send it. Eh?

Haṁsadūta: The best place to start is Boston, because they're already equipped there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, already. Even in small scale we can start from Boston.

Haṁsadūta: Just like one or two pages.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Never mind. Just like I began in that way. You have seen the . . . Haṁsadūta: Yes, I saw the original Back to Godhead. A lot of your articles were commenting about current events.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The editorial board must be very intelligent how to talk about Back to Godhead with current politics. Girirāja, you can do that?

Girirāja: I could try.

Prabhupāda: Try. You just try it immediately. You take one newspaper and comment on the current news. Any one of you . . . every one of you can do. And show me how you have given. Then we start immediately. We have got many things to do. We have Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is the bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheśvaram (BG 5.29). What these petty politicians and three acres of land? Their stage is three acres of land; our stage is the unlimited. That I have mentioned in the second volume of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

So what news they can publish? Three acres of land. We have got the innumerable universes. We can supply so much news, provided people are ready to read it. We have published so many books, they are not even able to read these books. So the other devotees, (laughs) they cannot ri . . . come at five o'clock. That is the test. Yes. One who cannot rise early in the morning, he is not spiritually serious. That is test. Brāhma-muhūrta, this hour, one hour before sunrise, is very auspicious moment.

Haṁsadūta: I can tell everyone that wants a program to come at five o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Haṁsadūta: If somebody wants a program, I can say: "Come and see me at five o'clock." Because after they hear you and they have maṅgala-ārati, then they will be more thoughtful about our . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, tell them.

Haṁsadūta: I think that's a good idea.

Prabhupāda: You can say now, "If anyone wants to see us, please come at five o'clock, early in the morning." Then I shall see how much serious he is. Now I have decided to go to Delhi. Even Gurudāsa suggests rightly. All of us, we should go to Delhi.

Yamunā: It might be difficult to make arrangements, Guru Mahārāja. The place where Gurudāsa is presently staying is not equipped for ten people at present. We'll have to arrange.

Prabhupāda: No, we can arrange in the Birla's house. He has a nice dharmaśāla. You know Birla's house?

Yamunā: Yes. We were invited to stay there for ten days.

Prabhupāda: So that's all right. So, who invited?

Girirāja: One of the people connected with the temple have associated with us in Delhi, and several have invited us.

Prabhupāda: So first of all take information from the . . . (indistinct) . . . in which train they have booked our seats for Delhi, and you write immediately one letter to Dhruva in Bombay and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa also, that Dhruva may instruct the Delhi Birla dharmaśāla to accommodate us immediately. So their dharmaśāla. It is Birla's dharmaśāla. First of all we have to see how they have made our seats.

Revatīnandana: So the residential place belongs to Mr. Birla?

Prabhupāda: No, it is a temple, very big temple.

Haṁsadūta: So we should book seats for Delhi on which day?

Prabhupāda: Seventeenth.

Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth you want to leave?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the day, seventeenth?

Devotee (3): Today is the fourteenth.

Prabhupāda: No, day?

Haṁsadūta: Today is Monday.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Haṁsadūta: Seventeenth is Thursday.

Prabhupāda: Thursday?

Haṁsadūta: Thursday, seventeenth.

Prabhupāda: So Thursday, before afternoon, we shall start.

Devotee (3): You want to go by plane, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, I am asking one ticket for plane.

Devotee (3): You'll fly alone to Delhi?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yamunā: The Delhi airport?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not difficulty. Ask Gurudāsa to take me. For two hours I can sit down. It goes directly Delhi from here.

Devotee (3): No, it makes two stops.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.

Devotee (3): But the same plane.

Prabhupāda: Same plane. And you come, all, by train.

Haṁsadūta: Will we open a bank account here? Will we open an account in Indore?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: This morning with Mr. Holi.

Yamunā: So when we find out your arrival time, Gurudāsa . . . we can inform Gurudāsa when you'll be arriving?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And then the next day you come, all, by train. Thursday we can wa . . .? What is that, Thursday?

Haṁsadūta: Thursday . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh, Industrial House. Industrial House.

Guest (2): It's called "Industry House."

Prabhupāda: Industry, that's all. Industry House. Industry House . . . Dhruva's full name, you know?

Devotee (3): R. C.

Prabhupāda: R. C. Dhruva, Secretary to Mr. R. D. Birla, Industry House, Churchgate Reclamation . . .

Haṁsadūta: Bombay West.

Prabhupāda: Bombay.

Yamunā: Is Parliament in session again?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yamunā: I was thinking that Parliament goes in and out of session, and I wondered if they remembered this if Parliament was in session again.

Giriraja: No.

Yamunā: No.

Prabhupāda: Parliament is in session now?

Yamunā: No. Out of session now. When it's in session then all of the politicians come from their castles and their . . . they all, most of the members of Parliament come all the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So when the Parliament begins?

Yamunā: It will be . . . (indistinct) . . . it separates for about a month and then comes together.

Prabhupāda: (someone enters) Aiye. Aiye. (japa)

Giriraja: Insofar as seeing the prime minister, this is the best time, because she is not so preoccupied.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is that picture? There was picture you took there?

Devotee (3): (indistinct) . . . picture with a letter . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh. So . . . so how long you talked with the Prime Minister?

Yamunā: Maybe ten minutes.

Prabhupāda: So she took some interest?

Yamunā: She took a courteous interest. As I say, there was no doubt that at the time that she saw him she was pressed with other matters. A very personal friend of hers that Gurudāsa is now staying with told us that she was very impressed, her personal secretary was very impressed, and that she said—we have it on tape—that she would like to see us again and she was sorry that she didn't realize that we had been even waiting for so long. Otherwise we could have come earlier, she would have . . . (indistinct) . . . in that way she would like to hear some time in the future.

Devotee (4): The next day we saw some yogī.

Prabhupāda: Pressing nose. Nose-pressing philosophy.

Devotee (5): Haṭha-yoga also.

Yamunā: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So what was his philosophy?

Yamunā: You do some exercises and know God, be self-realized.

Prabhupāda: You should have said to him, "Are you self-realized?"

Yamunā: (indistinct) . . . a rascal, I didn't want to try.

Prabhupāda: If they tell you then he's God . . .

Devotee (5): (indistinct) . . . exercise and breathing . . . (indistinct) . . . some type of meditation performed.

Yamunā: He's social svāmī, a very social svāmī. He's very polished in a material way.

Devotees (5): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And smoking also?

Yamunā: I didn't inquire into his vices.

Devotee (5): In New York they call them "uptown svāmīs." . . . (indistinct)

Yamunā: His example of spiritual life is based on material prosperity.

Prabhupāda: So why they should go to the yoga system? The science is more advanced. Before flying in the sky by a yogī he has to press his nose for so many years, and the science has given us the aeroplane. He can purchase ticket, immediately fly. (laughter) What is use of pressing nose?

Yamunā: You explain that in Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use, wasting time?

Revatīnandana: You said about when you walk on the water, walking on the water is a bogus thing, a two-cent yogī, because for two cents he could have taken a boat across.

Prabhupāda: That's all. If that is the ultimate end of life, to walk on the water or to fly in the sky, so science has given them all opportunity. And their material science is so advanced that all this yoga system is now almost accomplished, because that is material only, material prosperity. (someone enters) Aiye.

Yamunā: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, eating flesh sumptuously and get fat. Flesh-eaters get fatty very quickly, flesh-eaters. Māṁsa. The skin becomes increased for flesh-eating. You see in your country, the Russia? Russian beauty—big belly, fat. That . . .

Yamunā: Germans are like that, too. Germans.

Prabhupāda: Germans. If you eat meat, you very quickly can get fatty. Also too much ghee also. (chuckles) That is also. But ghee will increase your belly only. Just see Marwaris. (laughter) But by eating flesh you'll get sturdy, good lump of muscles. That is . . . in Āyur Veda there is a chapter which is called Dravya-guṇa. There is a book, Dravya-guṇa. So they have analyzed so many different kinds of flesh—birds, beasts, animals.

How they have analyzed? That "If you eat this kind flesh you will get this kind of result." Hundreds of fleshes. What do they know? They can eat only cow's flesh or dog's flesh or hog's flesh. Yes. But there are so many, even birds, beasts, animals, and so many, analysis. And Bernard Shaw, I think, he wrote one book, You Are What You Eat.

Haṁsadūta: George Bernard Shaw.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are becoming animals, animals eating animal flesh. Bernard Shaw was vegetarian.

Devotee (6): Except he would take liver for his health.

Prabhupāda: Liver?

Devotee (6): Yes. He used to take some liver periodically for his health.

Prabhupāda: Medicine. There are many liver extract preparations.

Devotee (6): No, not liver extract. Maybe. I don't know exactly. But I know he used to take liver. Not cod liver oil or anything.

Prabhupāda: No, liver extract preparations there are many medicines. For anemic patient liver extract is recommended.

Devotee (6): That's all right for us to take?

Prabhupāda: No, but if you are going to die, then you can take.

Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: When required for such trouble, if you are going to die, then, to save yourself, you can.

Devotee (6): If that liver can be eaten raw . . .

Prabhupāda: If you are going to die. Not ordinary. If it is sure that without liver extract you shall die, you can take.

Devotee (4): You cannot tell. You can't tell until you actually . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Because when there is question of death, it is recommended you may take anything to save your life.

Yamunā: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: But those who are rigid, they are prepared to die even.

Yamunā: Vaiṣṇavas, wouldn't they just chant?

Prabhupāda: Their proposal is "Death is sure today or tomorrow, so why shall I change my principles? Death will take place even if I live for ten years more, and what is the benefit? Why shall I change my principles? It is not that by taking that medicine or liver extract I shall be amara, immortal." That is not possible.

If somebody gives some medicine that one can make himself immortal, that is another thing. Nobody is going to be immortal. Why he should be afraid of death? Death will take place. "As sure as death." So today or tomorrow or hundred years after. So if one moment is utilized for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that makes life successful. Why shall I live for hundred years, waste my time? One moment is sufficient for living.

Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? . . . (indistinct) . . . I just have one question about the ending, that Ajāmila, he was calling the name of his youngest son.

Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa.

Himāvatī: He was thinking, but he was calling out to him, and after calling, he was reminded of his early life, of his worshiping the real Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Nārāyaṇa.

Himāvatī: And therefore Nārāyaṇa saved him. Isn't that true?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Himāvatī: Not that he was simply calling and Nārāyaṇa had to save him . . .

Prabhupāda: But simply calling "Nārāyaṇa," he reminded, he remembered. Remembered. Yes.

Himāvatī: He remembered the real Nārāyaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Because actually when one chants Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord's name, immediately he remembers Lord's form, activities, pastimes, everything. That is natural.

Himāvatī: Not that he was unconsciously just chanting, and the Lord saved him in that way, but he actually remembered the Lord.

Prabhupāda: That is the remark of Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. But according to others' opinion, even simply by chanting, that is sufficient. In the Bhāgavata it is stated like that. But Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has remarked that this chanting referred to the context. Immediately he remembered Nārāyaṇa.

Himāvatī: In that same connection, the story of Ṭhākura Haridāsa and the harlot, that she began to chant and told him the reason that she was a prostitute, she was no good, and simply by that association she began to chant, or by previous association . . .

Prabhupāda: No, by association. By the influence of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. For three days, three days she associated.

Himāvatī: But Professor Sanyal was putting forward his theory that in previous lives she had had association, therefore she began to chant.

Prabhupāda: Why previous lives? That's not very good reason.

Himāvatī: Subconscious, that she had subconsciously remembered.

Prabhupāda: No. No, no. That is not.

Himāvatī: In one of the Back to Godhead magazines, he wrote in some book.

Prabhupāda: That is not. He advocates that. Direct association with Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Why previously?

Himāvatī: (indistinct) . . . he wants to say that previously she had done some chanting, therefore . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. Professor Sanyal was not very much advanced. He committed so many blunders.

Himāvatī: You heard about that article?

Prabhupāda: No.

Himāvatī: That was the one that . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Well, if that sort of remark is given, it is not against the śāstra, but it was not necessarily previously. His direct association. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says,

sādhu saṅga sādhu saṅga sarva śāstra kaya

lava mātra sādhu saṅge sarva siddhi haya

(CC Madhya 22.54)

"Even a moment's association with a pure devotee—all success." Not necessarily that one has to acquire it previous. No. Generally it is so, but sādhu sanga has got its effect. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, lavamatra sādhu sanga sarva siddhi haya. You have not read in the Sanātana-śikṣā in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya?

Revatīnandana: Does that also apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

Prabhupāda: Effect, of course, it requires both the things. One must be very eager to take it. Just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit heard Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and there are so many others, they are also reading Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was very serious. So both things should be serious. Just like the example: the husband and wife must be potent; then there is pregnancy. Otherwise there is no pregnancy. So sowing the seed, the field also must be fertile, or receptible, then the seed will fructify. It is reciprocal.

Revatīnandana: But if the seed starts to sprout and it lacks sufficient facilities, then it will die completely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Revatīnandana: But if a spiritual seed starts to sprout, then whatever sprout is made is never lost. Right?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not lost, but it is checked. Sometimes he is checked.

Revatīnandana: Because the tendency to revive again.

Prabhupāda: In that way again one has to . . . that brings the question of previous life. One was advanced so much; it was checked by some reason; he again begins from that point. Just like Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura was advanced in his previous life up to bhava-bhakti.

Somehow or other, it was checked. But as soon as he heard the words from the prostitute, "Oh, you are so much after the flesh and similar, and bones and skin. If you had been so much eager for Kṛṣṇa, how you would have been disposed," immediately he came to that point and immediately left. I'll take . . . (devotees offer obeisances)

Himāvatī: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The other day you talked about the spirit soul and his position in the brahma-jyotir, that there's no shelter there. Just like we go up, up, up into the sky . . . (indistinct) . . . there's no shelter there, so you have to go to some planet. So I was thinking that the reason why our position is shaky is due to this body. But spirit, being restless, can remain anywhere, and shelter . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, but there the shelter is transcendental bliss. The impersonal Brahman is not transcendental bliss. It is simply eternity. But we want three things: eternity, full knowledge and blissful life. So there is no bliss.

Himāvatī: Yes. Just as we require shelter because we have the body . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, this living entity also requires shelter of blissful life. That is this association of Kṛṣṇa. So unless he gets that, he wants blissfulness, but—there is some spiritual blissfulness; he has no information—he comes down again to this perverted blissfulness of this material world.

Himāvatī: They don't take their pleasure in being there in the brahma-jyotir? They don't . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: There is no pleasure. Blissfulness is not there. That is . . . Brahma-jyotir is simply eternity, that's all. The same example can be given: just like sunlight. There is only light. But on a planet, the effect of the light is there—there are so many trees, so many flowers, fruits. We . . . we want varieties of pleasure. Variety is the mother of . . .

Devotees: "Variety is the spice of life."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Himāvatī: Spice of life.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. So therefore, we are living entities, life. We want variety. So this is the varietyless—no variety; one kind, sunlight. We require sunlight. We are so much anxious for sunlight. Not only sunlight.

Revatīnandana: It must be very boring. It is very boring in the brahma-jyotir? You get very bored? There is nothing to do? Nowhere to go?

Prabhupāda: Bore?

Haṁsadūta: Boring, dull.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Himāvatī: But at first they are satisfied, aren't they, that they've achieved their goal?

Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They do not know. They are after brahmaṇanda, transcendental pleasure, but they do not know what is actually transcendental pleasure, impersonalists. Therefore their intelligence is not clean. They go to the spiritual kingdom, transcendental platform, but they do not know that how the real transcendental pleasure can be achieved. Therefore their knowledge is not perfect.

Revatīnandana: When they want to come back, is it very easy for them to come back, or have they got to endure . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, they automatically come back, because he is hankering after varieties. So that variety is not there, so he is attracted again in the material world. Just like so many sannyāsīs. Take Vivekananda. He wanted to lecture on Vedānta, which is liberation. He came again back to the hospitalizing and philanthropic work because he could not find the variety of pleasure in Vedānta.

Of course, he was not very much advanced. There are many. There is a sannyāsī is here, he's a . . . Kārpātrī. He is very learned and other . . . he was formerly speaking on Vedānta and other . . . now he is in politics and cow protection. You see? There are many.

Revatīnandana: The question I had is I have a hazy memory that one time I heard that when a soul, when it finally does enter into brahma-jyotir, that he has to remain there for some long duration of time, a daytime of Brahmā or a lifetime of Brahmā. Is that correct? What is that duration?

Prabhupāda: Not that. That is not like that.

Revatīnandana: Not like that. Thank you.

Prabhupāda: But he feels inconvenience without varieties of life. The Bhāgavata says, tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ: "Their intelligence is not clean." Arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ (SB 10.2.32): "Although they rise up to the brahma-jyotir," patanty adho tataḥ, "they again come back."

Haṁsadūta: And the nirvāṇa conception of life is just before Brahman?

Prabhupāda: Nirvāṇa conception is marginal position between brahma-jyotir and this material world.

Haṁsadūta: Just on the brink.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāraṇārṇava. Kāraṇārṇava. The Kāraṇa Ocean, wherefrom the beginning of creation, material creation, that is nirvāṇa.

Devotee (4): Virajā.

Prabhupāda: Virajā, yes.

Revatīnandana: Is it possible to go there?

Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes.

Devotee (4): Arjuna went there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: What was Arjuna's purpose?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa took him to show His friend. He did not go alone. That he could not. No. (laughter) It was Kṛṣṇa's . . . (indistinct)

Revatīnandana: So he went to the spiritual sky?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then what is the use of making friendship with Kṛṣṇa if you cannot do that? There was a rich man in Calcutta, Motilal Sil. He was so rich that . . . every man has different circle in younger days. So he would see. If any of his friends did not possess a house in Calcutta, he would purchase house. He said that, "If people say, 'Oh, you are friend of Motilal Sil. You have no your own house?' what people will say about me? He must have his own house."

He purchased house for him. He was very big man. And there are many incidences also like, a very noble story. Actually it was not long ago, say about hundred years ago. He would not see that any one of his associates, friends, does not possess a house in Calcutta. Another Kṛṣṇa's friend, Sudāmā also. (chuckles) He could not recognize his own place, how it has happened, palatial buildings, garden. In Kṛṣṇa, you have not read Sudāmā?

Give me water.

Yamunā: (indistinct) . . . mentions in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya that a devotee in attachment selects one of the Vṛndāvana . . . the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful in his own devotional service. Does that mean that one of our spiritual masters is an eternal representative of Vṛndāvana? . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that? Let me . . .

Yamunā: It says: "All inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi, Vṛndāvana, are very dear to Kṛṣṇa. A devotee in attachment selects one of the inhabitants and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful."

Prabhupāda: Devotee . . . devoted to the Vṛndāvana inhabitants. You don't directly think of yourself that, "I shall see Kṛṣṇa as my son."

Yamunā: No.

Prabhupāda: No.

Yamunā: No.

Prabhupāda: That is Māyāvāda.

Yamunā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have to follow the footsteps of Yasoda-mā.

Yamunā: Yes. You've told me that before.

Prabhupāda: Then it will be success.

Revatīnandana: But you've said that you are always in Vṛndāvana, so we are following a Vṛndāvana inhabitant. That's right.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter)

Yamunā: It says: "One should always remember the activities of that particular inhabitant of Vraja."

Prabhupāda: Now you have got Kapoor darśana?

Devotee (4): Yes.

Revatīnandana: Have we got an engagement this morning?

Haṁsadūta: Yes . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Haṁsadūta: He asked if we have an engagement this morning, 8:30 . . . (indistinct) . . . Molpar.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Molpar, yes. They'll send cars?

Yamunā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How far is it?

Haṁsadūta: It's supposed to be just in the neighborhood.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right.

Devotee: What's his position? His Highness?

Haṁsadūta: His Highness . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: He was formerly prince.

Revatīnandana: Of this area?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: He had written that . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is the sign of princely opulence.

Revatīnandana: He's the son of this man we saw last week? This Mahārāja? It's not his son?

Prabhupāda: No, no, he is also old man.

Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . because I have to wait for Mr. Homing. I won't be going to that place, because I'll be waiting for Mr. Homing.

Prabhupāda: Homing is coming?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, and I . . . we'll open a bank account.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Haṁsadūta: We'll open a one-sided account. Book account and, er . . .

Prabhupāda: Book Fund account, selling, and one International Society, checking account. (devotees offer obeisances) So what we have to do in that connection?

Devotee (4): Bring . . . (indistinct) . . . just now.

Prabhupāda: The water? (break) (end)