770103 - Conversation B - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

770103R2.BOMBAY - January 03, 1977 - 38:49 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Why should be checked? This is the point.

Girirāja: Yes. I don't think that the court will decide against us.

Prabhupāda: If they decide that, there are many other court judgments in our favor. Then we must adopt civil disobedience. There is no other, second way. "Capriciously you cannot impose anything against the law, against the judgment. If you do, then we shall also disobey." That should be the last resolve.

Hari-śauri: I remember when we were first beginning in Melbourne, we were harassed very tremendously by the Council.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know that.

Hari-śauri: And they were putting us in jail and everything. And actually every court decision was against us too. But somehow or another, we just went out on saṅkīrtana every day, distributing. We were getting booked, then fined. Then we wouldn't pay the fines, so they would come and they would raid the temple at two o'clock in the morning and try and take us away to jail. And . . . it went on for months. And then in the end we had . . . there was so much publicity about it . . . when we went to jail we were fasting. So there was so much publicity that the Council became very embarrassed that they couldn't get rid of these boys and girls. They became so embarrassed that they stopped their harassment, and we carried on with our saṅkīrtana activities. So actually, if we just determine just to stick with it, then there's nothing they can do. What can they do to us unless they kill us? I don't think they can do that.

Prabhupāda: So your wife came.

Devotee: Oh, yes. (break)

Prabhupāda: This is Indian attitude. They do not care for the modern, civilized way of life, wasting time reading some nonsense book or going to the bars, the cinema, talking unnecessarily. They do not like. Those who are old style, they do not.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I know many women who are very good cooks. I have tasted it . . .

Prabhupāda: They have no time to waste time in that way. They must be inclined that "I must prepare something nice so that my husband, my children or my, all friends will be very pleased." That is their policy. I wanted that all our girls, they should be expert. And in America they are doing that. They should learn the art of cooking and prepare very nice foodstuff, daily change of menu. And the children should be so trained up that no more birth. And that is life. They can produce hundreds of children, it doesn't matter, but must be responsible that, "These children should be saved. This is the last birth; no more birth. I'll train the child in such a way that next life he's going to Kṛṣṇa, back to home, back to Godhead." That is parents' duty. Otherwise they should not become parent. That is contraceptive: "I am not fit to train my children in that way, so I shall not produce cats and dogs." This is life. Why shall I produce cats and dogs? And Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was gṛhastha; he produced Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. That is wanted. So in this way, if there is ideal institution, ideal mode of living, it is happy; everything is all right. That is gṛhastha. Produce Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī. My Guru Mahārāja used to say that "If I can produce kṛṣṇa-bhakta as children, then I'm prepared to marry and produce hundreds of children." And if we cannot, then we shall not produce even one children. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī in their previous life . . . what was the name? Their determination is, "If we can get a child like God, then we shall produce. Otherwise we go on, tapasya." And when Kṛṣṇa came, "What do you want?" "I want You." "Who is like Me? I shall appear." Anyway, we have got such huge establishment. Utilize it very properly, everywhere. Another thing, that in Vṛndāvana . . . you remember the corner land, Parikra-arasta?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah, yes.

Prabhupāda: That is available by acquirement.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The corner land to the left? Left of Gurukula? Or . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Gurukula . . . when we go to the chuni, in front of . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Ha, ha, ha. In that direction.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is agricultural land.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right opposite.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Where that gate is.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Right before the gate. That is . . . I was under the impression that belonged to some Christian man.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is first.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is further.

Prabhupāda: After crossing the road, the corner.

Hari-śauri: Where the parikrama path is.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That is available for . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, that would be good if we get that. It's right next to our temple.

Prabhupāda: So why not try for that? You can get it, I am sure.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I'm going to Vṛndāvana in ten days.

Prabhupāda: So if we can get that land, then we can divert our sewer in the land and utilize it for nice agricultural purposes. So instead of spending lakh of rupees for Municipality, why not acquire that land?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Acquire, or buy? Acquire.

Prabhupāda: Acquire means you have to pay, but government . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but acquire usually takes a long time.

Prabhupāda: Not long time. They'll give us, because it is lying vacant.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: On the sewage problem in Vṛndāvana, we'll have to make . . . do something quickly, because even the Gurukula will not be able to open till we can . . .

Prabhupāda: So you can do it immediately. But go on, purchase. It is lying vacant.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, that's a very good idea. But we'll still have to put a pipe underground coming out.

Prabhupāda: That is not much. A few yards only. And then introduce it and distribute that water, the whole land, and you will get good agricultural produce, very good. You can have very good business.

Hari-śauri: That can be used for agriculture?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This water is very valuable for agricultural purpose. Nature has made in such a way. Aiye. All rejected water, you can utilize for agriculture.

Hari-śauri: I think in the West they have a law that says you can't use human sewage.

Prabhupāda: Kick out the West. (laughter) We are doing here, in India. The Municipality is doing that also in Vṛndāvana. Everywhere it is. In Calcutta there is called dhāpāra māṭha. Dhāpāra māṭha . . . formerly, anything produced in dhāpāra māṭha, that was not used for Deity. The superstition, that "These vegetables are grown in filthy water, nasty . . ." But the vegetables were . . . cauliflower, so big, so big. Everything, very luxuriantly, very tasteful and solid and big. Dhāpāra māṭhera (cauliflower). Yes. In Bengal, generally, the land is very fertile to produce vegetables. But this, the more the filthy things of the city were thrown there, and the cultivator used to grow very nice. That is utilization of this filthy water, where there was sewer ditches formerly. In the village they diverted from the water in the field, and they got good crops. Generally they pass stool in the field. The cow's, cow dung and man's stool and everyone's stool, they are wrapped together in the rainy season. It became fertile . . . (indistinct)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will try for that land.

Prabhupāda: Immediately. That is . . . that will be proper utilization. And in the court, unless they arrange for this dirty water out, why shall I pay tax? We shall stick to this position.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are sticking to it. The only harm to us is our Gurukula is going to get delayed now, the opening.

Prabhupāda: But in the meantime you . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And also we are running out of time, because we can't let water accumulate, I mean, the way it is.

Prabhupāda: So why you can't? We have purchased that land. They have to . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that is . . . we have to try for that now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means . . . we have purchased that land. By force you can drive out? We are trying for that. Go to the court, "We have regularly purchased that land. What can be done? The Municipality is not doing anything." We have to fight like that.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we are fighting, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you should be afraid?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. I, what I mean is the water . . . we're having all that trouble with the man in the back.

Prabhupāda: That I am speaking, that he is trouble. Why he should be giving us trouble? We purchased it. Take land; take money. And we have purchased the land for this purpose. We are doing other arrangement; that is our mercy. But even that land . . . the Municipality is obliged.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they are.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise we can throw the water on the street. That is Municipal's duty. Otherwise, why shall I pay tax? We shall do everything, we shall pay tax, and we shall suffer? What is this?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We're not paying tax. We are fighting it in the court.

Prabhupāda: So in this way we have to fight. We should not be afraid for these rascals. Why you should be afraid? If they take to guṇḍā-ism, we shall engage fifty guṇḍās, "Come on. Let us see." We have to maintain that spirit. Anaye yei kare prabhu anaye yei sahe. The Rabindranath Tagore's one poetry, "One who does wrong and suffers wrong, he is wrong." One should not do anything wrong; one should not suffer anything wrong. That is human. If somebody does harm to me, wrong to me, I cannot suffer it. I shall not do any harm to anyone. That's all right. But if you want to give me suffering, I must fight you. Why shall I suffer it? That is kṣatriya spirit. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam (BG 18.43). "If you are challenging, 'All right, come on,' I accept this challenge." We have to do like that. Now, this bāniyā spirit . . . our Bhagatji, he purchased that land, and he's afraid of him. What is this? Bāniyā spirit. But you are kṣatriya.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) He has to . . . I'm not there all the time. They come to his house to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you argue with weapon. Beat them. We shall see. Go to the police that, "This is nonsense."

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we've done that.

Prabhupāda: So how is that?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: At the present moment he's okay; he's quiet.

Prabhupāda: No, we should beat them. If somebody, ātatāyī . . . "You unnecessarily attack me, I must first kill you. That is my duty." Just like you have done here, Setterji: "I'll bring my revolver." So that is argumentum baculum. Here they wanted to put us into trouble, and he was in great trouble. So he came, he stood: "All right, come on. We shall fight. Bring my revolver." He did that. So we have to do like that. Why shall I tolerate unnecessary injustice? Take that spirit. And in meantime, apply. That is the solution. Why shall I spend for them? And unless they arrange for the sewer lines, we're not going to pay tax.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's our position.

Prabhupāda: Let us go on, one court after another, one court after . . . if there is fight, we must be prepared to fight . . . (indistinct) . . . if required, take Setterji. He'll help.

Setterji: Girirāja . . . (indistinct)

Girirāja: He's very heroic. He was very heroic.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is kṣatriya. Aap log toh kshariya? kshatri? (Aren't you people kṣatriya? Kṣatri?) You take him.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Setterji: In the Pakistan time, I fight forty, fifty men.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is kṣatriya spirit. If you want to fight . . .

Setterji: Yes, always.

Prabhupāda: You killed? (laughter)

Setterji: Yes! So many times. So many times.

Prabhupāda: So you have got experience. Huh?

Setterji: Sometimes, I have walked on the dead bodies.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So many dead bodies.

Setterji: I have seen about four men at the Pathan border, and the . . . one, this Korabhari, this ṭāṅgā, Victoria, came with six Muslims. And they challenged us, very . . . "We will kill you." We said: "Yes, come. You kill us, we will kill you. We fight." We were ready at that time, because revolver was there and the Kurari, Kundasa was there. One, my friend, he was from Gujrawala. He showed this Kundasa, and his head cut out, and he was running . . .

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Still running?

Setterji: Running! In Mahābhārata I was heard that body was running. But actually I have seen at that time. Head was cut, and the body was running.

Prabhupāda: Just see. (laughter) And then he fell down.

Setterji: Then he fell down. And of that, the other men went.

Prabhupāda: That, how he was running with his mind, just see.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: With his mind.

Hari-śauri: The mind is in the heart.

Setterji: And we have saved all the fellows, because . . .

Prabhupāda: That, these rascals, they do not know . . .

Setterji: Because if they first, they put us, then our men will do it. So we do first.

Prabhupāda: Killing.

Setterji: Yes. And the one man get out from the ṭāṅgā, who first cut out his head. Then . . . and all the others ran out. Otherwise . . . (indistinct) . . .

Prabhupāda: Calcutta me wo sab musilman ko . . . (indistinct) . . . kali ji ka mandir me sab bali daan diya . . . (indistinct). Ek do bali daan diya. (In Calcutta . . . (indistinct) . . . they butchered in the temple of Kali. Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . they butchered one or two.) Actually. It was also very disastrous.

Setterji: To fight . . . when fight is there, then . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is also Kṛṣṇa conscious. You see how many demons are killed by Kṛṣṇa.

Setterji: "Come on." You challenge. You see? I've declared. If they challenge us, I am ready: "Come on." At the temple I challenged, "Come on! And you are 150. We don't afraid."

Prabhupāda: So . . . (indistinct) . . . (to Gopāla Kṛṣṇa) You have lost your kṣatriya spirit.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Having Setterji with us . . . when he has . . . (indistinct) . . . relax for few days, rest for few days.

Prabhupāda: Huh? If you have lost your kṣatriya spirit, then take him.

Setterji: When he came with that barrister to give you to notice . . . Maine Mahtre ko idhar khara karke usko gaali diya. (I made Mhatre stand and swore at him.)

Prabhupāda: Isiliye toh . . . (That was the reason why . . .) Mhatre was so against it, that: "We must stop this." Yes. I heard from that doctor that he was insulted by Seti, "Either Seti should go . . ." Like that, he has repeated. He gave me a hint that Seti ko hata dijiye aur nahi ye nahi ho sakta. (Seti should be removed and this cannot happen.) And you know that. The doctor . . . what is that doctor?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: He suggested. He's Mantrer's man.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He's Mantrer's man?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Setterji: He was also play the game in the land, this, that he was so many . . .

Prabhupāda: He gave hint that, "Give Mhatre two lakhs of rupees." Yes. He was canvasser on behalf of Mhatre. He wanted two lakhs.

Setterji: "Which I will . . . we will not give you a single paisa. We will fight to you. Come on." . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So I think you make this point. But best thing is that if you can acquire that land, that is best solution. We can utilize that land?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, for agriculture. That's very good.

Prabhupāda: It is just in the corner.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We can have a small gośālā there also.

Prabhupāda: Anything we can do.

Setterji: Gurujī, one night at the Pakistan front we stay in one place, and forty, fifty men came there, Kuraris and Kundasas. And another fellow which was with me, he was asked to be one of them. So when they came, we recognized and we were ready with the revolvers and the . . . (indistinct) . . . the men came, and they want to kill us, and we shoot them, five mens dead, that time, and the rest ran away. And I took my child, this Brijmohan, was . . .

Prabhupāda: Young? Young . . .

Setterji: He was five days old only. And I took my wife on the back . . .

Prabhupāda: Five days?

Setterji: Five days. And I took my wife on the back and child in my hand, and the way was so difficult, and the darkness. And then we . . . six miles . . .

Prabhupāda: What about your other children and daughters?

Setterji: They were also with us.

Prabhupāda: But they were grown up.

Setterji: But my father took my . . . that child who was one year old, one and half year old.

Prabhupāda: Oh, father, mother, everyone—whole family. Then how trial they had.

Setterji: Six miles from there, and then we got a . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of these Punjabis had to go through this. During the Partition a lot of Punjabis had to face these fights and killings and all.

Prabhupāda: No, in Bengal also there was fight.

Setterji: Huh? First in Bengal.

Prabhupāda: Noakali there was great fight.

Setterji: After this war I cannot slept six months perfect.

Prabhupāda: Mind was so disturbed.

Setterji: Because these, that scenes, came always . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. In vision.

Setterji: . . . in dreams, that "We were fighting; we were killing, they are killing; we are killing."

Prabhupāda: Just see how much struggle.

Setterji: The dreams. Sometimes we wake up fighting, fighting.

Prabhupāda: I had such experience. I had some experience in my childhood, in 1911. I was thirteen years old. There was a riot. So our house was there in Mahatma Gandhi Road, and all sides Muhammadans. We are simply . . . the Mulliks and our house are simply some respectable men. Otherwise it was surrendered by . . . that is called Kwalabala and basti (Kalabagan basti). All Muhammadans, back side fully Muhammadans. So the riot was there, and I went to play. There is a square, Market (Marcus) Square. So I did not know the riot has taken place. I was coming home. So one of my class friends said that, "You do not go to your house. That side is rioting now." So because we are in the Muhammadan quarter, this fighting between two parties, that was going on. It is usual. So I thought it may be like that, that two guṇḍās are fighting. I have seen. One guṇḍā is stabbing the other guṇḍā, I have seen. And they are pickpockets. When you are passing they would . . . I have seen, he is pickpocketing. (laughter) And they were our neighbor men. So I thought, "It must be like that. This is going on." But when I came the crossing of Mahatma Gandhi . . . at that time Harrison Road it was. Harrison Road and Holi . . . holiday . . . Halliday Street, yes. So one shop was being plundered, putamat-putamat-putamat . . . (indistinct) . . . so I was child, a boy. I became, "What is this happening?" In the meantime all, my father, mother, members: "Oh, the child has not come." They became so mad, they came out of home expecting, "Wherefrom the child will come?" So what could I do? When I saw, then I began to run towards our house, and one Muhammadan, he wanted to kill me. He took his lāṭhi and actually . . . but I passed through, some way or other. I was saved. So as soon as I came before our gate they got their life. So without speaking anything I went to the bedroom, and it was in the month of . . . it is winter. So I . . . without saying anything I laid down, wrapping myself with quilt. So at that time I was rising, "Is it ended? The riot is ended?" I was asking. I remember. So I would have been killed in that riot. So I have got experience of this riot. That is the first riot in Calcutta, in 1911.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We haven't had any such experience.

Setterji: I was passing on my car after Pakistan from Laul, and they put bomb, hand grenade, and the back glass broken, but we . . .

Prabhupāda: Saved. Kṛṣṇa saved, actually. Unless Kṛṣṇa saves, who can? So I had the experience of riot in Calcutta in my childhood.

Setterji: Guruji us time aisa katai lagta tha ki maut bhi kuch chiz hai. Kuch maut ka dar hi nahi tha. (Guruji, during that time it was hard to think that there is something even called death. Some deaths had particular time.)

Prabhupāda: At any moment.

Setterji: "Who are afraid from death, come on!" challenging. Kuch dar nahi, maut bhi kuch chiz hoti hai . . . (indistinct) (Death is also something . . . (indistinct))

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Soldiers, they forget that, "We have to die." They fight for . . . that is another madness. In Hindi it is called kunchariya.

Setterji: Kunchariya. That is . . . ah. Aankhe ekdum laal rehti hai. Ekdum. (The eyes become totally red.)

Prabhupāda: Soldiers, they do that. It is unnaturally he becomes. They become mad after killing. Usually a kṣatriya spirit. They must be trained-up kṣatriyas. If he is bāniyā, he cannot do it.

Setterji: In the old time (indistinct) . . . kisi aurat ko humne haat nahi lagaya . . . (indistinct) ((indistinct) . . . we did not ever touch any women . . . (indistinct)) who have challenged us.

Prabhupāda: Ah, they did. (laughs) So you were real husband to give protection to your wife.

Indian lady: (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Can you make one cāpāṭi?

Hari-śauri: I should make it, or Pālikā, or . . .? Just one cāpāṭi.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Pālikā. (break) . . . business, that requires so many other things. But if you take to agriculture, you can do it immediately. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. That . . . we are going to do that. Kṛṣi . . . this is beginning: family life, maintenance, body and soul together. This is the beginning. Business is there when there is excess. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). First of all you take care of the cows and engage yourself in agricultural product. Then when there is excess production, you trade, get some money for other purposes. But you . . . agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade? Trade is required when there is excess product. Everything is there. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. And the kṛṣi you can produce independently. You simply work. You have got your hands and legs. You till the ground, throw some seed, and it will come. One kilo seeds, you'll get one hundred mounds. Then, when the product is excess, you trade. Everything is there. If you produce food grain, you'll eat nicely and you'll be strong. You'll be able to work more. Our point is take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Kṛṣṇa is advising immediately sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you'll do, that is perfect.

Girirāja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?

Prabhupāda: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture . . . you take to agriculture—that means you leave everything?

Girirāja: Well, what I have now.

Prabhupāda: Huh? And what you have got? You are asking that, "I require now food." That means you have nothing. You have no food even. (aside) Oh, you have brought it very quickly. Very nice. All right. (break) Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Simply wasting time, the civilization . . . Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Working hard and wasting valuable time of . . . misguided. Andhā yathāndhair upanīya . . . (SB 7.5.31). When I think of their position . . . so every Vaiṣṇava should be para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. So you like it?

Hari-śauri: For thirty paisa it's very good. For the price it's very good.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, it's very good in other ways. Full color. We're going to sell it for a rupee at Kumbha-melā.

Prabhupāda: Kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye (CC Madhya 6.254). The unhappy for the unhappiness of others. They love them, unhappy without Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is a fact. The rascal may agree or not agree. That's a fact. Ghostly haunted.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) Where is this temple? London? No.

Hari-śauri: Which one? Oh, that's the German castle. Schloss Rettershof.

Prabhupāda: Oh, France.

Hari-śauri: German.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. I think it is rightly done.

Hari-śauri: For mass distribution it's very good. For mass distribution. How many copies he's . . .

Prabhupāda: One lakh.

Hari-śauri: One lakh. (end)