770331 - Conversation C - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

770331R3-BOMBAY - March 31, 1977 - 64:40 Minutes

(Conversation with Scientists, Svarupa Damodara, and Dr. Sharma)

Prabhupāda: Here Jagannātha Svāmī is the same. So it is desired that the Svāmī should be in a very nicer place, that there is no deridation of the Svāmī, the exaltation of the Svāmī. So therefore the rascal does not know what is analogy. Analogy does not mean dissimilar.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Both similaries.

Prabhupāda: That he does not know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are glorifying Jagannātha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Svāmī is the same. If I speak to my svāmī, husband, "Kindly you come to this better seat," there is no deridation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are not putting yourself on that higher seat. You are putting Lord Jagannātha there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore that analogy is failure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I thought you would like to see that brochure from those rascals. I mean, I brought it to your attention because I knew that you were . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (break) . . . the whole world much nicer building, palaces, and . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nicer building?

Prabhupāda: Yes, this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Detroit?

Prabhupāda: London, Bhaktivedanta Manor, they are nicer buildings. But if you cannot open these doors of the building, oh, immediately collapse . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's true.

Prabhupāda: You have to remain packed up.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it spoils it. You can't really enjoy it.

Prabhupāda: Detroit and London. Oh, you cannot open.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Detroit also.

Prabhupāda: Not so much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not so much?

Prabhupāda: When I was going there it was very clear.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You picked a good time of the year. London and Paris at the right time is very good. Say June . . . May, June, July. But nine months or eight months of the year, it becomes difficult.

Prabhupāda: In Bombay especially, advantages. The whole side, sea. Therefore it keeps the atmosphere mild. Simply in Bombay. Not in this Bombay Province, Maharashtra. (break) Up to the end of the day, here is air and light. Up to the end. Good advantage.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very peaceful, too. (long pause)

Prabhupāda: You can keep some āsana like this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Indian man: (enters and recites Sanskrit ślokas)

Prabhupāda: Let him come inside. Bring in the āsana. Tabiyat theek hai? (Are you keeping good health?) (break) If you like, you can make this bed this size, not my size.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (aside) There's a way to adjust it (discussion as devotees fix something for Śrīla Prabhupāda) (pause)

Dr. Sharma: . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Now you combine together and present this Kṛṣṇa consciousness throughout the whole world . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . you have been acquainted with the other scientists?

Dr. Sharma: Yes, I have met Swami Mādhava dāsa and his colleague, and I've gone through that article recently that they sent me about creation coming out of chaos. It is a very wonderfully written article. They will be a real eye-opener for the scientists really. And I understand that you have a big plan to start a research institute with the help of the scientists. This will be really something that . . .

Prabhupāda: All Indian scientists should join.

Dr. Sharma: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That I want. To keep people in darkness is not science. They are keeping people in darkness. They do not know how nature is working, how they are subjugated to the laws of nature and trying to be independent.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

(BG 3.27)

Keeping people in darkness in the name of science, now it should be stopped. That is my humble opinion. So your paṇḍāls . . .?

Girirāja: It's going on. People are still coming and . . . did you see the press reports?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We showed one this morning mentioning that the member of parliament had made a statement.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: English.

Dr. Sharma: I was going to bring to your kind notice, ever since we become independent, our moral fiber is really breaking down. We are spiritually, I think, the . . . the deterioration has been very fast after 1947. Somehow this is . . .

Prabhupāda: This is our so-called leaders misled them.

Dr. Sharma: Misled us.

Prabhupāda: Even Gandhi misled. That Vinoba Bhave is misleading, what to speak of others.

Dr. Sharma: Many of the even small temples in villages, their revenue have been taken away after independence. There are many small temples in where I come from, our village in Rajasthan. And when I was a small boy I used to go to the temple because, you know, my grandfather and my father used to go to the . . . and there was a very rich life in the villages because, you know, the early morning, we would take a shower, bath, and go to the temples and do our pūjā, and the temple also we'd get some prasādam, and there was some land grants attached to a temple, some cows . . .

Prabhupāda: Some contribution.

Dr. Sharma: Contribution. And there was a real rich life in Indian village. Now, after independence, that life has been really destroyed. Because the grants have been taken away and here, it's really a pain to see such beautiful temples having no maintenance now. Plus this so-called secular education, you know godless education they have introduced, that has further harmed, because the temple-going public has also dwindled in number. And it looks like there has been a systematic plan to undermine our . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, by this Congress. Their opinion is that India, being too much religious, is spoiled.

Dr. Sharma: Yes. Also I just happened to do a survey in South about the veda-paṭhī brāhmaṇas who were having the complete control . . .

Prabhupāda: The brāhmaṇas, they, from your Rajasthan, the other day I got before. Twenty thousand brāhmaṇas have come here in Bombay to serve as tea-walla.

Dr. Sharma: Tea-walla. Exactly right.

Prabhupāda: So who is caring for the . . . because there is no maintenance, there is no education, so how the brāhmaṇas are being maintained?

Dr. Sharma: These, the Rajasthani brāhmaṇas were not that, you know, strong brāhmaṇas as you see in South. In the South the brāhmaṇas are very Vaiṣṇavas, very staunch, and they were veda-paṭhīs. They had the whole aural . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Veda . . . because the brāhmaṇas, they should be veda-paṭhī, at the same time, the public also must know the importance of Vedas. So if you prepare the public that it is useless, then how these brāhmaṇas can be maintained?

Dr. Sharma: Right now the number is dwindling so fast. The number of people who have the . . .

Prabhupāda: Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Kali-yuga . . . (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . to go to the universities all over and present Kṛṣṇa consciousness in a scientific . . . (indistinct) . . . write articles, using medical science to prove that Kṛṣṇa is the origin . . . (indistinct) . . . that's the nice thing about our operation. So if new blood comes . . . and now the new blood is coming, that is . . .

Dr. Sharma: And there is a lot of scientific data in our ancient scriptures which I told them that if they go through from their point of view they will find lot of things in Purāṇas, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, in many Vedic scriptures . . .

Prabhupāda: No, apart from Purāṇas and Vedic literatures, scientifically it is the modern science, according to their way, we can convince. Purāṇas, you may not believe the authority; I may not believe. But scientific truth has to be accepted.

Dr. Sharma: Well, actually nobody had looked from this angle as these people have described their angle. And I suggested to them when they have their research institute, they should go dig out every source from the . . . they will find a lot of material from our past.

Prabhupāda: You have got that stage, so you should invite all scholarly people, every Sunday, Saturday. Hold meeting, challenge them. In this way. Kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam.

idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam

(SB 1.5.22)

Avicyutaḥ artha. It is the infallible conclusion that your education should be perfected when you can prove through your educational talents that there is God. Then it is . . . avicyutaḥ artha. Avicyutaḥ means there is no fallacy—infallible. So that we have to do. (pause) Any other scientists joined from India?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: India, not yet.

Prabhupāda: What is their opinion? They are afraid of joining?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will come. Some of them are very favorable.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There is one doctor who lives on our land. He wants to work with them in proving that God exists. He did his M.B.V. from Russia.

Prabhupāda: Russia is also purchasing our books. (japa) If the scientists do not believe in God, what is the reason?

Dr. Sharma: They just want a valid proof.

Prabhupāda: Direct proof. The other day somebody asked me . . . perhaps you were present? No. Logically. The logical proof, common sense, anyone who has got common sense, the logical proof is there. Just like everything is growing from the earth. The earth is giving birth. Earth, water, air, fire. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). Take, for example, water. You dig a pond, and after a few months there will be fishes. So wherefrom the fishes came? If you don't touch even, the fishes will come, and they will grow. So wherefrom the fish came? What is the answer?

Mādhava: The scientists' answer? Well, immediately they would not say evolution, because it takes many billions of years to say evolution.

Prabhupāda: Evolution . . . apart from evolution, when I dig a pond, water comes out. You don't touch; after few days, after few months, there will be fishes.

Mādhava: They would say there are eggs in the stream and . . .

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the eggs came?

Mādhava: From another fish.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the eggs came?

Mādhava: From another fish.

Prabhupāda: Where is another fish? There was no fish when you dug this well. These rascals are great rascals, and they are going on in the name of scientists. Another, another—where is that another? Another means that is God. These rascals, they do not know that. They simply "another." Who is that another? That is God. Simple logic. The child is there, the mother is there, there must be father. This is logic. Otherwise how the living entity came into existence? You talk on this point. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi (Padma Purāṇa). Śāstra says in the beginning, jalajā, living entities born in the water. And they are not one kind. Not that one kind of fish is coming. Nava-lakṣāṇi: nine hundred thousand different types of life, varieties, varieties of life. So how these rascals say that all of a sudden came another? Where is that another? Answer it. What is that another? "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." (laughter) What is that another? That "another" is God. It is simple for us. We understand. Why? Because you are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am. Here I am. I am the seed-giving father." Finished. We take it. So we are in full knowledge. What is the difficulty for us? There is father. You can say another or this or that, whatever way you can say. There is father. You do not know? Here, the father says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "Yes, I am." We believe in Kṛṣṇa, our knowledge is perfect. You rascal, you do not believe, do not know. Then you hover in the darkness forever and remain a rascal and declare yourself a scientist. Rascal, declaring as scientist.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, scientific knowledge can be appreciated more when one accepts that Kṛṣṇa is the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That should be propagated now. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.1.3). If you know simply Kṛṣṇa, then you know everything. Why I am challenging, from the very beginning, all these rascal scientists? Because I believe in Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Otherwise I am not a scientist. I cannot challenge the scientists. But yes, I can challenge. Because I know my knowledge is perfect.

Dr. Sharma: You sound like . . . you know when at the time of Yudhiṣṭhira rājasūya-yajña, there was Śiśupāla and the other people who objected? And then Sahadeva, who was to do agra-pūjā of Kṛṣṇa, he said:

keśavaṁ keśī-hantāraṁ

bhajireda purakramam

pūjyamānaṁ mayāyoga

kṛṣṇa na sahata vipra

sarveṣāṁ balinam modye

mayedaṁ niyataṁ padam

keśavaṁ keśī-hantāraṁ

bhajireda purakramam

pūjyamānaṁ mayāyoga

kṛṣṇa na sahata vipra

"You kings who does not tolerate Kṛṣṇa, who is killer of Keśī, and Keśava, if you don't honor, I am putting my foot over your head."

Prabhupāda: That's it. "I kick you on your face with my boot."

Dr. Sharma: So that's what ācārya is saying: "If you don't recognize on the scientists, my foot to you."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kick the scientists in the face. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: So this should be stopped. These rascals, these fools, they are passing on as scientists and misleading others. That business should be stopped. But they cannot answer wherefrom the fish came. What is the answer?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You ask him to answer.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Sharma: I think that science should be limited to people who have got Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Would you agree to that? You see in the beginning, when you select people for science, should you make it a prerequisite for admission that they should be Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Maybe they will become better scientists. Maybe they will not, you know, make atom bombs and other destructive things if they were Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: I say to the scientists . . . (indistinct) . . . who as they say, life comes from chemicals. And I say that take some small egg. You can see, there are some substances like yellow substance and white substance. Analyze the chemicals and combine them and put in the incubator. You get one chicken. Why the rascals cannot do it? And still, they say that life comes from chemicals. What is the answer?

Devotee: They say it is too complicated.

Prabhupāda: That means you do not know, and you are passing your remark that life comes from chemicals. Such a rascal you are. You do not know what is the thing, and still, you are declaring your knowledge. You are misleading people. And you are captured, you say: "Yes, wait millions of years. We shall do it by trying." What is this nonsense? All post-dated check. So these rascals should be stopped. Speaking all lies, propaganda. Let him go to hell, I don't mind. But why they are misleading others? That is the greatest harm they have done. We attack them only for this reason. Otherwise, individually, you go to hell. Who cares for you? But in the name of science and becoming a scientist, you are misleading others. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. You are blind rascal, and you are leading other blind men. Why you are doing these harmful activities? You are admitting that you are blindly believing. So you are blind. You remain blind if you don't accept knowledge. Why you are trying to lead other blind men? Let them have knowledge. They have got the opportunity, this human form of life. This is the opportunity to get knowledge. And you are keeping them in darkness. Is that service to the human?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The real scientists, they must be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise he cannot be a scientist.

Prabhupāda: No. The real thing he does not know. (break) We know. We know on the basis of śāstra, authorities, ācāryas, so many. And what is your support? Your support is yourself. Then everyone will do that. His support is himself. Everyone will become authority, "I think," "I believe." What is this nonsense, your belief? These things should be stopped now. Boliye sharmaji isko band karna chahiye ki nahi? (Tell me Mr Sharma, should this be stopped or not?)

Mr Sharma: Jaroor karna chahiye. (Definitely it should be.) Misleading, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). These conditioned souls, very stringently bound up hands and legs by the laws of nature, they are trying to lead the human society. This rascaldom must be stopped. You do not know. Say you do not know. That's all. Why you mislead others, giving them false knowledge? If you do not know even the distinction between the living entity and the material elements . . . you are trying to prove the living entity is also combination of these material elements, chemicals. Such a rascal you are. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho yayedam (BG 7.5). It is very important thing. You do not know anything about it. Kṛṣṇa again says, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi. Negative definition. Still, you are so rascal, you do not understand, and you are misleading innocent persons. So combine together as many as possible and go and challenge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dr. Sharma can help us a lot in Bombay. Because I find that medical institutions, you know, hospitals, is a very good place to speak to the doctors. Because this life, the concept of life, and these bio-medical ethics is very appropriate. So . . .

Dr. Sharma: Yes, actually, this concept is very timely for our country, Prabhupāda. My feeling is that our country has a special place in the Lord's heart, because He came here several times. And the very fact that after independence, nobody could prevent it again, and you have come, all these things, to stop it now. And I think the thing should start from . . .

Prabhupāda: At least, I am the first man to try for it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Dr. Sharma: And these people, they are very learned in their chosen fields, and they have . . . they are Kṛṣṇa conscious, and they are really keen to do it with enthusiasm, to turn the tide back.

Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed their lives. They are scientists, they could earn lots of money, but they do not care for it. They have dedicated their lives. In America they could earn lots of money, such a qualified person. But they did not care for money. They care for the truth. That is real brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa does not care for money. Knowledge. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). The truth. That is brāhmaṇa.

Dr. Sharma: And they are living like brāhmaṇas in, you know, so . . . Bhagavān also has taken out time to protect the brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa . . .

Dr. Sharma: Go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca jagad-dhitāya kṛṣṇāya govindāya . . .

Prabhupāda: His first business is to give protection to the brāhmaṇas and the cows. Go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Jagad-dhitāya. Next, welfare of the others. First, Kṛṣṇa says specifically, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya. He gives specific instruction: go-rakṣya, protect cows. Yeh sab jahannum me bhej rahe hain, duniya pareshan ho raha hai, kuch to kijiye. (They are being sent to hell, the world is disturbed, do something.) Somebody was speaking to me that some great astrologer long ago predicted the Russia will be first-class theist in future. Who was speaking that?

Devotee (1): What?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That the Russia would be first-class theist.

Devotee (1): I don't know.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The atheist, when they are convinced, they become first-class theist. One of my teachers used to say that anyone who is not easily convinced, he does not forget easily also. And one who easily understands, he easily forgets. So the Russians, they are strong. You cannot convince them by bogus dogmatic theories.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's very true. Scientists, once they are convinced, it is also very difficult to . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is not easily convinced, then easily he does not forget.

Dr. Sharma: I've always said, teach the Russians that we have our own brand of communism or socialism.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I have already explained.

Dr. Sharma: Yāvad . . . (Sanskrit) The amount of material you need to fill your belly, that is your own. You can call only that much your own. If you think you own something more, you are a thief and you should be punished. That's what Bhāgavata says. This is the highest kind of socialism one can . . .

Prabhupāda: This is real socialism. God is the supreme father. Everyone has got right to live at the cost of the father's property. But you cannot take more than that. Then you are a thief. Take whatever you . . . and even by nature you will find. You just immediately throw one bag of rice, so many birds will come. And they will take one or two grain or something . . . they will go away. And the human being, oh, he will take five shares, he will take ten shares. And within one hour, ten mounds of rice will be finished. The birds and beasts will not do that. Whatever he actually requires, they will take from there. Therefore they are not subjected to the sinful activities. Only human beings are subjected to sinful activities. But he has got developed consciousness and misusing it. There is no sinful activities for animals lower than the human being. There is no sin. Because they are under the laws of nature, the animals. And as soon as one becomes developed conscious human being, if he does not know the śāstra and guided by spiritual master, he will do all nonsense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Vikarma, all sinful activities. Only for sense gratification. Mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. And what is the purpose of doing so many sinful activities? Yad indriya-prītaya—only for sense gratification. There is no other aim. Ṛṣabhadeva says: "No, no, don't do this." So who is giving protection to these rascals who are educated to act sinfully? That is in Bhāgavata. "No, no." Na sādhu manye. "This is not good." "But why not good? Let me enjoy." "No, you will not enjoy. You will create another body for suffering." Yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). You are already suffering. You have got this body. You are already suffering on account of your past activities. And you are creating again, again another body for suffering. So it is not good. They do not know. Ye koi civilization hai kya. Chahe jake samiudra me gir jaye, chalao motor chalao bina license ke. Koi bolta hai samudra me apni jaan de doonga, who cares. (Is this civilization willingly going and falling into the ocean while driving a motor car without a license, someone says: " I will give up my life by jumping into the sea." Who cares.) (Jao 'nunam pramatte' . . . kuch aur . . . 'prana . . . dhiya vaca' itna buddhi hai, resource hai, words hai, intelligence hai. (Something else . . . "prana . . . dhiya vaca" they have so much brains, resources, words, intelligence.) Human civilization—para-upakāra. This is the real meaning. Aage jake chalao motor-car. (Go ahead and drive the motorcar.) Four-wheel dogs. That's all. That is advancement. The dog is running with four legs, and he is running with four wheels, "Dag-dag-dag-dag-dag." Where you are going? And this is their scientific advancement—competition with dog. Otherwise what they have done? The anthill, and four-legged wheel. That's all. Four-wheel legs. This is animal civilization. Without knowing the aim of life, living in big, big skyscraper building, "I am king." And running like dog with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Kṛṣṇa's instructions: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Divide the whole human society into four divisions, and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins. Otherwise, what is the difference between dog and the human being? There is no difference. The leaders are teaching, "Feel like Indians." As a dog is feeling, "I am bulldog." This is our leaders. Aur uske liye itna . . . (And for this so much . . .)

Dr. Sharma: (Sanskrit sloka) This India is considered . . .

Prabhupāda: Puṇya-bhūmi.

Dr. Sharma: Puṇya-bhūmi, because the people here believe in karma and Lord Kṛṣṇa, and other countries they don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. They are the bhoga-bhūmis. They just believe in enjoying. That is why India is considered better. But now the modern India is not that India. This is from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Ye sab chal raha hai, ye koi leaders hain, kya leadership. Wo samajhta hai Indira Gandhi ka nikal gaya ab achha ho jayega, kya accha. aur isme sabko phasa diya. jab leaderlog meeting karta hai . . . alag baat kuch nahi, sentiment. (All this is going on. Are these called leaders? What leadership? They think that Indira Gandhi is no more and everything is alright, what is alright? Everyone is caught in this. When the leaders hold meetings . . . nothing else is discussed, sentiment.)

Dr. Sharma: Actually, we never had the geographical concept of the nation. Only concept we had was the religious concept. Wherever Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, that is India. That has been the concept through the centuries, until 1947, you know, and then we had these boundaries. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is worshiped in north, He is worshiped in south, He is worshiped in east, He is worshiped in west, and there are temples marking that plain. And that's what we call India. And that has been throughout the centuries. Not the geographical boundaries they have given it now to India. Really you can make out the definition of India, where Kṛṣṇa is worshiped, that is India. And that can be anywhere now, including worship in the United States or in Canada. Because He was the man, He was our Lord, He came here. He gave us the religion, He gave us the life, He gave us this . . . so now these politicians are taking that concept away, and they are changing the consciousness of the whole nation now. They want to change the consciousness. They want to make them materialistic. They want to make them greedy. They want to . . .

Prabhupāda: And what materialistic advancement they have done?

Dr. Sharma: Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Now in our childhood, when we were ten-years-old boy, my father used to purchase high kilo saraṣera tela, for eight annas. Can these rascals do to that standard? Eight annas, first-class Kanpur mustard oil. Now that oil . . . not that quality oil, still, they are being sold thirteen rupees per kilo, instead of three annas.

Dr. Sharma: They were always, even in a small village, there were five or ten good people who could do the kīrtana. You know, they had a knack of one particular instrument, they could get up and all on the Janmāṣṭamī, on so many festivals they used to have kīrtana. And all, you know, small village, even nook and corner of the country, bubbling with life, religious life. This is only twenty-five years ago, even thirty years ago it was there. And look now . . .

Prabhupāda: Phir shuru kijiye abhi. (Start it now again.) It is better late than never. Khali bolne se kya hoga. (What is the use of just telling.) We are sending our men from village to village. Not only here, also in the European countries.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, one of our basic points is that we are not this body but we are actually soul. So I would wonder how Dr. Sharma, he is a specialist in, I think, cardiology . . .

Dr. Sharma: Cardiac surgery.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we say that the soul is in the heart. So how can we convince the other doctors, for example, of the presence of the soul within the body and especially within the heart?

Prabhupāda: They do not know that the soul is there, because they have misunderstood. So when the soul goes away, they think their heart has pain. Material cause. They do not know because the soul has left, the heart is not working. They take it on the other way, that because the heart is not working, therefore he's lying down.

Dr. Sharma: Some of the ancient Indian medical texts, they do describe that heart is the seed of consciousness. (verse) "hridaye chetana sthanam." The Suśruta Saṁhitā says that the heart is considered the consciousness. But the modern medical texts, they are actually, they . . .

Prabhupāda: Modern means rascals.

Dr. Sharma: Yes. Actually, they are only two hundred years old.

Prabhupāda: Say, rather, modern rascals. (laughter) Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61).

Dr. Sharma: Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ (BG 15.15). And the (Sanskrit) says that the heart is the most important organ because it is concerned with ātmā and . . .

Prabhupāda: Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu (BS 5.38). Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1).

Dr. Sharma: Yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā devāya tasmai namaḥ.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about these . . . the artificial hearts that they are making?

Prabhupāda: Artificial heart and this real heart the same thing—it is material. Where is the difference? There is no difference.

Dr. Sharma: Just like they are trying to produce babies in the test-tube. They are never going to be successful. But they can keep on trying, you know. I recently went to Houston, and there I have read that they cannot keep somebody alive even more than five, six hours. So far away from such a thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about this heart transplant?

Dr. Sharma: Well, the heart transplants actually have been given up everywhere except one place, that's in Stanford Medical Center. And they are doing it because they are the one who initially started it, so they are emotionally stable about it. But actually I have gone and seen there, and they do it . . . the people are, you know, the recipient patient is very unhappy after the heart transplant. He's very restless, and he has nightmares and he is extremely unhappy.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Nightmares?

Dr. Sharma: Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Has Dr. Barnard of South Africa stopped it now?

Dr. Sharma: Well, he has stopped after doing nine, but Stanford people, they have done about almost over a hundred, and they can keep somebody alive another six months or a year or at the most two years. But the man, the man's existence is very miserable. He has to take so many drugs, and he is bloated like a balloon, and he cannot even do the simple duties like taking walk or going to bathroom. He has to be very careful. If he just slips, it will develop the fracture of his ventricle, and that's all. It is very, very unnatural, and I don't think they can solve this problem at all. It is just man's struggle life. And I know they are saying they will do only in people with proper insurance, because the hospital bill is $70,000 for a heart transplant.

Prabhupāda: All rascals, they . . .

Dr. Sharma: This is a perfect example of what Prabhupāda is saying, because this is not justified on any account—moral, ethical, medical . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Or financial.

Dr. Sharma: Or financial.

Devotee: Waste of their time.

Dr. Sharma: Really waste of their time, and this is, you know, an example of how stubborn man can be, especially the scientists. I think the real transplant was done was done by the Lord Śiva when he did transplant the head of Lord Gaṇeśa. That was the only successful transplant I know of.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we're going to come back in about two hours. Four o'clock, or . . . (indistinct) . . . with the equipment. So maybe you can help us, especially in making some arrangements around Bombay hospitals, some evening or even a class. . . . (indistinct) . . . can have discussions, proper discussions.

Dr. Sharma: (replying to Svarūpa Dāmodara) So . . . (indistinct) . . . we will also introduce you to some of the basic scientists, you know, here. (indistinct conversation with Svarūpa Dāmodara) Some of them have a spiritual background, you know. Just they probably are waiting to meet a person like your background or Mādhava's background. I think it's unique, nobody has come out like this. People talk half-heartedly here, and they don't pursue it, they don't have the conviction to pursue it in this country. Very quickly give up. If I get this idea, then next morning I forget about it, and then whatever . . . I don't even, you know, I am afraid to talk about it. So you have very boldly come out with this, and this so many centuries of tradition is there to back you up. So I think you should pursue it with all your enthusiasm, and with Prabhupāda's blessing you will really go a long way, as I say about it. And I am . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It can only be by Prabhupāda's blessings.

Dr. Sharma: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise it's impossible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you can go somewhere else now. Śrīla Prabhupāda, you wanted to ask Dr. Sharma about altitude?

Prabhupāda: Seven-thousand-feet-high altitude, it is good for a person to go there?

Dr. Sharma: I think it will be better if you go with an oxygen cylinder and by helicopter, not by the routine journey. Not by, you know . . . gradual. Because suddenly you can get air hunger, you know, when you . . .

Prabhupāda: It is risky.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Risky. It is risky.

Dr. Sharma: It is risky, yes. It is risky.

Prabhupāda: Then forget this thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But blood pressure . . . (break) (end)