760703 - Conversation B - Washington D.C.

760703ss.wdc

Prabhupāda: Some talking? There is no talking? This slide's without talking?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, we will make little... We are just testing.

om ajñāna-timirāndhasya

jñānāñjana-śalākayā

cakṣur unmīlitaṁ yena

tasmai śrī-gurave namaḥ

(I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.)

nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya

kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale

śrīmate bhaktivedānta-

svāmin iti nāmine

namas te sārasvate deve

gaura-vāṇī-pracāriṇe

nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādi-

pāścātya-deśa-tāriṇe

All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Hari-śauri: I've got a torch, flashlight. (whispering and movement going on)

Prabhupāda: You can cover it with some cloth. Take that cloth.

Hari-śauri: Use that cādara on the back of the rocking chair.

Prabhupāda: Cādara will be too heavy. Here, take this.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now most of these slides will appear in our book, the origin of life and matter, Life Comes From Life. Now Sadāpūta and myself made these slides. These are some of the... Only a few slides. We specifically want comments from your Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda, whether these slides will be appropriate to be in the book. Now this is the philosophy between the difference between life and matter. So this is sāṅkhya philosophy. The principles and the philosophy, as Śrīla Prabhupāda comments in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in the Third Canto, the sāṅkhya philosophy is especially meant for persons who are conditioned by this material world, and by understanding the science of devotional service and sāṅkhya philosophy, one can become free from the modes of material nature. So we want to impose that in order to understand the distinction between life and matter, one must at least have a glimpse of the Absolute Truth, at least some idea of the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is completely impossible to understand the difference between what is life and what is matter. That is why scientists nowadays are so much confused about the concept of life and matter. So in fact the scientist Orgell, in his book The Origin of Life, he starts with saying "What is life? The question 'What is life?' should not be inquired." He says...

Prabhupāda: One minute. That Absolute Truth is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Absolute Truth is that from whom everything comes into existence, everything emanates. Now that has been discussed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, because Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the natural commentary by the same author. So he begins janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). This word is used. He's not dead body, dead matter-abhijñaḥ, like that. In the beginning. That source of everything... Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). Just like a mother gives birth to a child. She knows everything, how the child was born in the womb, how it developed, how it is coming. At least, on the whole, she knows everything. Similarly, the original source of everything is immediately informed in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that abhijñaḥ, experienced, knows everything. Anvayād itarataś ca, directly and indirectly, everything it knows. So the origin of everything cannot be a dead man. That is the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the scientists, since they do not know the Absolute Truth, they say such fundamental and most important questions, "What is life," should not be asked, say it is very unscientific. That is their verdict. But we say no, that shouldn't be the case. We say what is life should be inquired and it should be understood. Otherwise, how can one study the origin without knowing what it is? It is rather meaningless to study the origin of something which is not known.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we say, yes, the fundamental and basic requirement is to understand this basic difference between the two principles, life and matter. Now here the Absolute Truth, in the śloka,

ity etat kathitaṁ gurvi

jñānaṁ tad brahma-darśanam

yenānubuddhyate tattvaṁ

prakṛteḥ puruṣasya ca

(SB 3.32.31)

The translation says, "My dear respectful mother, I have already described the path of understanding the Absolute Truth by which one can come to understand the real truth of matter and spirit and their relationship." So here it clearly says that in order to understand these basic principles, one must have at least some idea about the Absolute Truth. And it is quite scientific. Comparing our normal scientific disciplines like physics, chemistry and mathematics, in fact this very principle is utilized. But the scientists, not knowing that the axioms, or fundamental truths, are coming from the absolute source. So this is the basic requirement.

Prabhupāda: I have heard that mathematics believes by some imaginary thing, minus, so on, like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The absolute numbers?

Prabhupāda: Something minus one, like that. Who is mathematician here?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) Here is our mathematician.

Prabhupāda: All right, so is that the beginning of mathematics?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the beginning of mathematics?

Sadāpūta: Well, the beginning of mathematics is counting a number. We have that square root of minus one.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I heard. The beginning is minus one. That is imaginary; it is not fact. But they imagine something at the beginning.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. In fact it is called imaginary number. Square root of minus one.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if mathematics begins with imaginary something, why not Absolute Truth? That Absolute Truth must be life. As Bhāgavata explains, janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). He must be aware of everything. That means life. That means life. Now the question is how He became experienced? Svarāṭ, independent. Just like we require experience, knowledge, from somebody else. Experienced knowledge is not gained automatically, but the Absolute means that He is full of knowledge. How He got knowledge? Svarāṭ, independently. That is the description. You have to imagine at least like that. It is Vedic injunction, it is the fact, that Absolute Truth independently cognizant of everything. That is Absolute Truth.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now we want to describe something about this Absolute Truth. His Divine Grace Śrīla Prabhupāda has explained that Absolute Truth is that from which everything comes: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Now what is the Absolute Truth, and how the Absolute Truth is to be known? Now in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Absolute Truth is described anādir ātmā puruṣo nirguṇaḥ prakṛteḥ paraḥ. The Absolute Truth or the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supreme Soul, and He has no beginning, anādi, He has no beginning. And He is also nirguṇa, He's transcendental to the material modes of nature. And prakṛteḥ para, beyond the existence of this material world.

Prabhupāda: The same thing is explained also in the Brahma-saṁhitā, anādir-ādi. He's anādi, He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything. Anādir-ādi, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. He is the beginning of everything, but He has no beginning.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And He is puruṣa, He's a person. Now how the Absolute Truth is to be known? In Bhagavad-gītā it is described bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). The Absolute Truth must be understood as He is only by devotional service. So...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, it is not possible. That I explained this morning, panthās tu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyo vāyor athāpi manaso muni-puṅgavānām, so 'pyasti yat prapada-sīmny avincintya-tattve (Bs. 5.34). Without bhakti, if you go on speculating for many, many years with the speed of mind, if you want to go, still avincintya-tattve, it will remain inconceivable.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So what it means is that in order to understand this distinction between life and matter one must be a devotee.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We raise the question, we challenge these rascals because we are following the path of devotion. We are not scientists. And we could not challenge unless we were convinced. How it is possible? Suppose I am layman, how I am challenging these big, big scientists? It is not... Because we have known it through devotional service, so this is science. That is the difference.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are some of the axiomatic truths that are necessary steps in order to study this problem between life and...

Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad-gītā it is said bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: (BG 18.55) "One can understand Me through bhakti." And the Vedic injunction is that "If one knows Me, or knows the Absolute Truth, God, then he knows everything." Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If somehow or other one knows the Absolute Truth, then he knows everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. That is the benefit of knowing the Absolute Truth. So a devotee knows everything. How it is possible? That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā,

teṣām evānukampārtham

aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ

nāśayāmy ātma-bhāva-stho

jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā

(BG 10.11)

One may challenge, "How a person can know everything?" So Kṛṣṇa immediately replies that "I help him specifically." Teṣām evānukampārtham. "Just to show My personal, especial favor upon him, I light up the torch of knowledge, and he knows everything." So if Kṛṣṇa helps one to know everything, who can check it? That is not possible. This science must be there. We are not all-powerful. Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful means He can do everything.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also further described about this Absolute Truth as vadanti tat tattva-vidas... (SB 1.2.11).

Prabhupāda:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

(SB 1.2.11)

That is the Absolute. Go on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now these statements are quite scientifically valid and sound. Now this will be verified in our next slide that is called the axioms. This is called structure of a theory. In scientific disciplines, specifically in mathematics, now scientists work with a beginning called axioms. There are two types of axioms. First one is logical axiom, and second one is theoretical axioms. Now from these axioms, by inference, actually one deduces these theorems. That's in the second block. From there, by observation, we have this object of study. Now the basic question is wherefrom these axioms coming from? The starting point, axioms, they take it for granted, and actually there is no proof. It is beyond proof, beyond any scientific proof.

Prabhupāda: Vedānta-sūtra means all axiom. Vedānta-sūtra, that is all axiom. Axiomatic truth.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the way that science works, also they depend on axioms. But actually, when one analyzes this a little thoughtfully, one should come to the conclusion that actually these axioms are coming from the Absolute. So our first proposition that in order to understand life and matter one must have this, er, some knowledge of the Absolute Truth is scientifically sound.

Prabhupāda: I tried to explain something in the beginning of Īśopaniṣad, my lecture in the Conway Hall, what is that Absolute Truth. "Introduction." I have given the example that the Vedas say cow dung is pure. This is axiomatic truth. Now if you analyze cow dung you'll find all the antiseptic properties are there. This is axiomatic.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the next slide we establish the difference between the life and matter. These are some of the basic differences between the...

Prabhupāda: We can't read it. I cannot read

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One side it says "matter," the other side it says "life."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the left side, it is matter; on the right side, it is life. Now it is little different from the way that this different set-up by biologists. This is quite unique in a sense because we all take this from the sources of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā. So the first point says that matter is the inferior energy of the Absolute Truth, and on the right column, it is the superior energy of the Absolute Truth. Now in the...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then in the second point, under the heading of matter, it is describable to some extent by physical and chemical laws. But on the other hand, life is nonphysical and nonchemical; it is beyond matter; it is transcendental. That is the basic difference.

Prabhupāda: That is explained indirectly. What are those verses? Na chindanti, na dahati. Definition by negation. It is never dried up, it is never cut into pieces, it is never moistened. Why don't you find that verse? Negative way. Physical means this can be cut into particle, pieces, but here, it cannot be cut into pieces. Your physical and chemical, you have got idea. Any physical thing can be cut into pieces. But here the negative description is given. It cannot be cut into pieces. Now we have to see what is that thing which cannot be cut into pieces.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we say nonphysical, nonchemical.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is quite right. Physical, anything physical can be cut into pieces. Read it.

Hari-śauri: This is 2.20. "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor having once been does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (purport) "The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried."

Prabhupāda: This is nonphysical. This is not physical. Physical, what is that physical thing which cannot be burned, which cannot be cut, which cannot be soaked? There is no such thing to the physical exterior. Is there anything?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No.

Prabhupāda: Therefore not physical. This is definition by negation. In the logic, there is a process of definition by negation. The Māyāvādīs, they define this Brahman, neti, neti, neti, neti, negation. "It is not this, it is not this." What is, that they cannot tell. They simply negate. That is a partial definition. Yes, go on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the third point, lacks—in matter column—lacks specific inherent complex form, and life column has a specific complex form and activity by nature. Now here we are talking about complex form. Normally the matter itself is very simple by nature, but life tends, when the living entity is in a living body, the matter itself is also very complex when it is associated with life. But matter per se is a very simple, simple structure.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can you say, though, that the soul has a complex form?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, we get information that in the spiritual world the spiritual world is full of variegatedness. It is not just one variety. It is full of varieties. So we take that as proof of the complex nature of life.

Prabhupāda: We see that so long the life is there in the material body, he has got varieties of thoughts. That is the proof that life is full of varieties. As soon as the life is not there, no more varieties, only one variety, dead body, that's all, finished. And as long as the life is there, he has got so many ideas, so many arts, so many philosophies, so many... That is the proof that life is full of varieties. That is the proof. As soon as the life is off, there is no variety. So what do you want, more proof that life is full of variety.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this connection, this variegatedness in connection with life, can you take it as some sort of complex structures?

Prabhupāda: You can... Because we, at the present moment, we cannot understand, except physics and chemistry, we cannot understand life. So as we do not understand life, so therefore the definition by negation is there. It is not physical, not chemical. It is something beyond. But by practical experience we can see that when there is life, a living man wants varieties. That's a fact. Varieties. Otherwise, why we disagree? I have got some varieties, you have got some varieties. So the conclusion should be tested that living condition or life is full of varieties, therefore the kingdom of life, the spiritual kingdom, must be full of varieties. That is the conclusion.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But in the..., from our experience, it is quite clear though that matter, as such... For example, let's take a crystal of diamond or, that will be shown later in the slide, that there are... Actually crystal of diamond is built in very simple structures. It's a hexagon, six carbon atoms, one after another, forms a very simple structure. But on the other hand, now when life is in association with matter, if we take a simple cell, the cell is composed of so many big, big molecules like proteins and DNA's and all these giant molecules. And they are wonderfully complex.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So what this studying of a dead man, the molecules? When a man is dead, what is the condition of the molecules?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The molecules will deteriorate to simple molecules. It will degrade from big, big molecules to small molecules. In other words, it tends to be simple. When the living entity is out of the material body, the body itself becomes very simple.

Prabhupāda: No varieties.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, no variety.

Prabhupāda: That I explained.

Hari-śauri: The complexity is there because the spirit soul is complex.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Rūpānuga: The characteristic here, Śrīla Prabhupāda says, is that life has specific complex form and activity by nature. So that this activity, complex activity...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, axiomatic. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). By nature, ānandamaya. And variety is the mother of enjoyment. Unless... Just like these bunch of flowers... When there are varieties of flowers, it becomes a very enjoyable bunches. If you simply bring rose, although it is very valuable, it is not so enjoyable. But when there are small, insignificant leaf also, which is not valuable than the rose, but rose becomes beautiful. That is life. And who appreciates it? When a man is living. A dead man cannot appreciate this beauty. There is beauty. Combination of varieties is beauty, or blissfulness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Next point says, in the column of matter, it says it has temporary complex forms in association with life. On the other hand, life is immutable. From Bhagavad-gītā, it has neither beginning nor end. Now this is what actually we find when a living entity is in association with matter, now matter tends to the form, into definite specific forms. Like human body has a specific form, like that, other living entities have forms. But this is only due to in association with life.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As he desired, so he got a form. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). The form is offered by the Supreme Absolute Truth, as he desires. Just like the cloth has no form, but as the customer desires, the tailor gives a form suitable to his desire. Similarly, material world means we have got varieties. In the spiritual world also we have got varieties. Because we are originally of varieties of form, we are getting these varieties of body, being influenced by the modes of material nature. So I'm desiring that if I get such body, I can eat even stool. So God gives you, "All right, you take this body. Become a pig and eat stool." This is going on. Why? Your desiring. You eat, actually. So īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). He's friendly, He's sitting in everyone's heart, and the living entity is desiring. So bhrāmayan. Desiring means he wants to go here and there. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni (BG 18.61). He gives a particular type of yantra, machine. This body is machine. Body is machine, everyone accepts. This is a machine. If we want to go to India, we ride on a machine, airplane, and go there. Similarly, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni. We want varieties of life, and God gives us a particular machine to ride on and travel, go to heaven, go to hell, become a dog, become a cat, become a demigod, become a tree. This is going on. Transmigration of the soul. God gives us a particular type of body, and we change from one machine to another. This is transmigration.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In this connection, one quality that is quite visible is the, that matter in association with life, there is a constant flow of matter that biologists describe as metabolism. Means we eat some food, and then prasādam is digested in specific ways by so many chemical reactions in the body. But that happens only...

Prabhupāda: That is also stated, ahaṁ vaiśvānaro bhūtvā pacāmy annaṁ catur-vidham. That digestion is also helped by God. Is it not? Ahaṁ vaiśvānaro bhūtvā pacāmy annaṁ catur-vidham. Is it not in the Bhagavad-gītā?

Hari-śauri: Yes, "I am the fire of digestion."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that differentiates also the simple matter without life. For example, sometimes it has been asked whether a crystal is alive or not. This is confusing to the scientists. Sometimes they say that a crystal is behaving just like a living body, it grows and this and that, they say. But actually there is no flow of matter. That tells us that crystal is not life. There's a fundamental difference. The last point in this connection is that matter is impersonal and life has personality.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that implies that matter is unconscious and the life is fully conscious.

Vṛṣākapi: It's been said sometimes, Prabhupāda, that you have said that some rocks have life. Some rocks, some stones, are actually souls in them?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like in the tree there is spirit soul. Everywhere there is spirit soul, but development of consciousness makes difference. The difference between the tree and man is that man is developed consciousness. Consciousness is developed. Tree is not developed. That is difference, but life is there both in the tree and in man.

Rūpānuga: What about the crystal? The crystal grows, but we don't say that the crystal has life in the usual sense of the term. Is the crystal also...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like diamond.

Rūpānuga: Like diamond, crystal.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere, wherever there is growth, there is life.

Rūpānuga: So there the consciousness is simply not manifest.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: In crystal form. Like the stone does not show consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are two kinds of life. Sthāvara-jaṅgama. Sthāvara means stationary. The stone is also stationary. It never moves. Big mountain, even though it has got life, it is stationary. And a small ant, it is not stationary. It is moving. So there are two kinds of life, stationed and moving. Sthāvara-jaṅgama.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, in order to present this to scientists in general, we are saying specifically that there is no life in stone.

Prabhupāda: No, that one stone may be dead. Just like a tree is standing. But when it is dead, the symptoms are different—there is no more green leaf. But the tree as it is, it is standing. But there is no more green leaf.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but there is a basic difference.

Prabhupāda: So similarly we may not understand that life, so long life is there, there is development. There is a stone in Benares, Śilā-bandheśvara. Everyone knows that stone is increasing. Still, it is there. So people go to see it. One who has seen that stone ten years ago, you will see it is developed now. So life, symptom of life is growth.

Rūpānuga: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes only a single symptom of life may be demonstrated. Like in crystal there is some growth only, with no other manifestation. Then the crystal may stop growing. Just like a tree...

Prabhupāda: Stops growing means dead.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even if the stone is growing, there is no metabolism.

Prabhupāda: That is different thing. Machine..., we have said that the body is the machine. Then all mechanical arrangement may not be the same in many machines. But it is a machine.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One question I have about this personality. We know from...

Prabhupāda: Just add consciousness. When consciousness is not developed, the personality is not developed. Just like tree you cut, there is no personality, it does not protest, "Why you are cutting?" It does not scream. But a man or animal, when you attempt to injure, it screams, it protests. That means consciousness is developed.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can we prove that the personality...

Prabhupāda: This is the proof. Consciousness developed and the symptoms are there. Just like we are studying this. Our consciousness is developed. This discussion is not possible by the animals, although it has got the all life symptom. Therefore because our consciousness is developed, we can inquire. Therefore in the human form of life it is the only business to inquire about the Absolute. Now, athāto brahma jijñāsā. The animals, they can inquire where is some food, where is some stool. That much. They have no other power. But when one becomes..., gets this machine of human form of body... The Vedānta axiom is "Now it is the time for inquiring about the Absolute Truth." Athāto brahma jijñāsā. That is real human life, when he inquires about the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, it is animal life. And there are so many department of education means inquiries. In the human society, there are departmental education. Physics department, chemist department, mathematics department, this department, that... Why? Because there are different inquiries. So Vedānta-sūtra says that the prime inquiry is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life. If there is no inquiry about the Absolute truth, then still he is animal. So those who are simply satisfied with the physics and chemistry, they are still animals. They are not human beings. This is the challenge. Still they have not developed the consciousness. And that inquiry, when it is for Kṛṣṇa, that is the final development. And when he understands Kṛṣṇa, his life is perfect. Then he goes back again to the spiritual world. He's quite fit to live there. Otherwise, he's unfit, he must be here in this material world. And if he understands Kṛṣṇa, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). This is perfection.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One last question, this stone thing. Now as a devotee we know that matter is also eternal in the form of pradhāna, described in Third Canto in...

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have already explained, there are two energies. So if the energetic is eternal, the energy is also eternal. But the difference between the inferior and superior means one is manifested eternally and one is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. That is inferior. The matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Just like the cloud. What is this cloud? Cloud is also manifestation of the energy of the sun, is it not? But it is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. So that is the difference between the inferior and superior. Both of them are energies of the sun. But the cloud is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. But as energy, they are coming from the same source. (break) ...but matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Therefore it is inferior. And life is always manifested, therefore superior. I am soul, I am eternal. But this body is manifested now. It is existing eighty years or hundred years, but this body will be finished, finished forever. Then again another matter manifests. But I am the soul, eternal, this body or that body. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). He is ever-manifest, either this body or that body, it doesn't matter. That is eternity. That is superior energy.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now understanding these basic differences, to study the origin of life has some meaning. But scientists studying the origin of life, they have no idea about these fundamental differences. So they claim that life actually is a manifestation of matter. In other words, life comes from molecules. They call it "molecule to man" theory. That we will see in the next slide. Now in this slide the molecules is called primordial chemical soup. Now these chemicals are supposed to be formed from simple, reduced substances like water and ammonia and carbon and hydrogen compounds. They are called hydro-carbons. Now these somehow, under the action of ultra-violet radiation or cosmic force, they combine together and form these amino acids. Now these amino acids, in due course of time, form the polymers called proteins. And similarly, several polymeric compounds develop and, given a long period of time, we've shown there chance and given a long period of time, then it's going to bring life, it's going to give life. That is the fundamental background of the scientific study of origin of life. This is what they have proposed. These molecules, somehow they combine, given enough length of time, billions of years as the time period, and then it's bound to happen. They say, given enough length of time...

Prabhupāda: Provided he lives billions of years. But he's finished within fifty years. (laughter) And his theory remains. The rascal cannot remain more than fifty years, and he's talking of billions of years. This is the defect. Who will see after billions of years? He is finished within hundred years. These are theories only. We see practically. Egg appears like chemical combination, but if you give, proper fermentation will come, fermentation?

Devotee: Fermentation.

Prabhupāda: It comes within few days. Why billions of years? Why should we wait for billions of years? This is nonsense. We see practically a bird can give birth to a child within few days, within a week. Why should we wait for billions of years? What kind of scientist you are? (laughter) Proposing to wait for millions... You nonsense. Who's going to accept your foolish theory? We see practically that within a week, and you say billions of years. Nonsense, stop that. Tell them, "You are nonsense, stop. Don't expose yourself any more." We see here, practically, within a week the life comes. Suppose the egg is a chemical composition. It is, it is chemical composition, that's a fact. But it gives life within a week. Why shall I wait for billions of years? Just see their foolishness. And this is being accepted as scientific.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, actually it is taught in all schools. There's a book called Molecules to Man. It's written by a very famous biologist, and it has been taught in school, saying that you come like this, from molecules, now you become human beings.

Prabhupāda: Now what...? Leave aside man. Molecules to chicken. How it is done? What is their answer?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say give enough length of time.

Prabhupāda: Why shall I give them? Here I see. Within a week, I get.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They'll ask, though, "Where did the first egg come from?"

Prabhupāda: First, second, no. We see that... They say you have to wait, give the molecules chance, hundreds of billions of years, then you'll see life. But I'm not going to live for billions of years, neither scientist is going to live. But here I see practically that a small egg, it gives life within one week.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Life?

Prabhupāda: Life from egg, chicken. It gives life within week. So why shall I wait for millions of billions of years? You show, you make some combination of chemical and show that life is coming within a week.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We want to defeat this. So in the next slide, in subsequent slides, Sadāpūta will show some mathematical calculation showing that this is completely wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is wrong. We can see, even a layman can see. No question of mathematician, a layman can see, here within a week we see life, why shall I wait for millions of billions of years?

Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is described in the Vedas that life begins as a pea size. In the body, the womb of the mother, the human life is only pea size, emulsification, and then in nine months it develops into this very small series of chemicals and everything, into a full body.

Prabhupāda: No, no. In the Bhāgavata it is stated that life symptoms begins after five days.

Rūpānuga: And consciousness in seven months.

Prabhupāda: Not in consciousness, but development.

Rūpānuga: But anyway, in nine months, it is done, not millions of years.

Prabhupāda: Not nine months, seven months. Seven months the consciousness returns back and the child wants to come out. Therefore it moves, it feels inconvenient. And if he's pious, he then prays to God, "Kindly save me from this condition. Now taking birth, I shall take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and make myself free from this bondage."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The most remarkable thing is these so-called scientists, is that they believe in the most unscientific statement. Like this long time period (Prabhupāda laughs) is the most unscientific. So how can they claim as scientists?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already said. We see practically within five days, within seven days, the life is manifest, and these rascals say millions of years, which he'll never see, neither I'll see. And we have to accept such theory. Before seeing that life system, his life will be finished and the student also will be finished. And who is going to see?

Rūpānuga: Their trick is that they say it has already happened. Over the past four and a half billion years the time has taken place for this complex form of life to evolve. So they say it has already happened.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, we differ in the time. You say millions, billions, and we say seven days.

Vipina: But they'll say that it's able to happen in a couple of days because it's taken billions of years.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The basis of their philosophy is that there's no intelligence behind it, therefore everything is chaotically going on, and by possibility it develops. But our philosophy is that there is intelligence, it can immediately happen.

Prabhupāda: We see practically. The egg theory, we can see practically. It doesn't require millions of years.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we want to completely wipe out this theory.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, there is, if we think of not in terms of science, but just in terms of our day-to-day experience, in social, moral, ethical, all levels of consciousness, if one analyzes this a little carefully, the root cause of our complete ethical background at this time is mainly due to this theory that "You are from molecules, and when you finish your body you'll also go back to molecules. So don't worry about all these high-sounding philosophical words. You just enjoy whatever you want and do whatever you like to do." So this type of complete materialistic...

Prabhupāda: Irresponsible life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, meaninglessness. No meaning. So it has no purpose because of this very concept. So at least there's a strong influence, especially in the colleges and the university circles, the students...

Prabhupāda: Educational circles. Yes. In the education circles they are made fools. Education means he's a more fool, that's all. That is education. Mūḍha. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. These fools and rascals, their actual knowledge is taken away, and they are coming out as educated. That we are protesting.

Hari-śauri: You once called them slaughterhouses. Slaughterhouses of education.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, I have said, yes. Means whatever little education he has, that is also finished.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, by the mercy of His Divine Grace, if we can eliminate this theory then we can establish Kṛṣṇa consciousness on firm scientific basis.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is there. My order there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And there is a great necessity...

Prabhupāda: Yes. To save the people from this foolish type of education.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now in the next slide we'll show that... Actually, there were some previous scientists who were not actually atheists, rather, they had some sort of devotee qualities. And one scientist called Pasteur, he actually proved that life cannot come from matter. That is shown in the next slide. So this is the experiment. It was in...

Prabhupāda: This Pasteur? There are many Pasteur Institutes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is the man, Pasteur.

Prabhupāda: He has got many institutes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is in his name, Pasteur. He is a famous scientist. He was a chemist and biochemist, and he did this experiment in the 1860s. Now the flask... This experiment is called a "swan-neck" experiment because the shape of the neck of the flask looks like the neck of a swan. So it is the famous "swan-neck experiment." Now, at that time, it was quite amazing that even the so-called famous Greek philosophers like Aristotle, Plato and all these philosophers, even they believed that life actually comes from matter. They had all complete materialistic view of life, completely on the bodily concept. Now, at that time...

Prabhupāda: But Socrates did not believe like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Socrates also believed in material concept.

Rūpānuga: No, Socrates did not think he was the body.

Prabhupāda: He separated body from the soul.

Rūpānuga: But after Socrates they all were like that. Socrates, you said once to me, was the last philosopher in the Western world of any value. At least, he knew the difference between body and soul. But after that they all became nonsense.

Devotee: (indistinct) arguing that rice can bring forth scorpions, he said that can happen.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That... Prabhupāda said that rice can give scorpions? Something like that, scorpion comes out of rice.

Prabhupāda: Yes, taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Where is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Is it in...?

Prabhupāda: In the Nyāya-śāstra, it is there. Taṇḍula-vṛścika-nyāya. Taṇḍula means rice, and vṛścika means scorpion. The scorpion coming out of the heaps of rice, so therefore rice is producing scorpion. This logic is wrong.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, so but people then believed like that. So Pasteur, actually he believed strongly in God, and he wanted to disprove that theory, and, in fact, he got prize for doing this experiment from a French academy and, during that year... This flask contains sugar solution and with some yeast to ferment at the beginning. But now the experiment was to completely kill any germs inside the flask by heating, in the beginning, and then cool it down automatically and to keep for some time, about two or three days...

Prabhupāda: Sterilization.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, sterilization. And then see whether there is any life developed within that broth. Now in the first flask, the neck is still attached to the flask. Now Pasteur found that there was no micro-organisms fermenting the flask, in the solution inside the flask. But after some time he cut the neck of the flask, that is in the second flask, then as soon as the neck is cut, then microorganisms from the air, surrounding air, atmosphere, entered into the flask, and then the solution is fermented. So that was actually the proof that without presence of the micro-organisms from outside, from the atmosphere, then life cannot grow into that matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Vedic theory. That is explained in the Bhāgavatam.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And here he has a nice quote, Pasteur. Somebody can read that?

Hari-śauri: Says: "Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of the modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the works of the creator."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he believed actually completely in the divine concept, divine personality. But unfortunately this experiment has been misinterpreted by these demoniac scientists.

Prabhupāda: That is also Vedic conception, that sex between man and woman is not the cause of life. Unless the living soul comes in the proper situation, the man's secretion, woman's secretion combined together emulsifies, and it creates a proper situation for the rest of the soul. So contraceptive method means that emulsification is disturbed. It does not create the proper situation; therefore pregnancy does not happen. Or imperfect discharge. The main point is that the two discharges, they create a situation wherein the living entity comes and rests. Then it will grow. Not that that is the cause of life. The mixture of two secretions is not the cause of life. That creates a proper situation, and the life comes. And if the situation is not favorable, the soul cannot stay. It has to go to somewhere else. So by the order of Kṛṣṇa, he was to come to take shelter there, but this man and woman checked it, therefore it is sinful; he is to be punished. Just like one apartment is fixed up for me, and if somebody checks, does not allow me to enter, that is criminal. That is criminal, he is to be punished. Unlawful detention. But they do not know the laws of nature, how it is working. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). The law of nature is working very silently, subtle. But they do not know. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). Rascal is so fool that he thinks that "I can do everything, whatever I like." Similarly, killing of animal. "Life is eternal," one can argue, "then what is wrong? Even I kill, the soul is alive." No, the same argument that this soul was to live in a particular type of body under the laws of nature, and you have checked, and he has to take again a similar body to fulfill the duration. Therefore you have done criminality. I have got lease for live in this room for certain period. If prior to the expiry of the lease, if the landlord drives me away, that is illegal. He will be punished.

Rūpānuga: That is like abortion.

Prabhupāda: Everything is on that principle, that you (are) violating the laws of nature, therefore you are criminal, you have to be punished. You cannot do it. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā.

Rūpānuga: Like if you are situated in your apartment and someone comes and forces you out of your apartment, that is like abortion.

Prabhupāda: That is abortion. By force you are destroying the shelter. Therefore you are criminal.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we can utilize this experiment.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... When the life comes from outside, then there is germination.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the perfect theory.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So life comes from life.

Prabhupāda: As I have already explained. It is not the man and woman sex creation. The life comes from outside. The solution was there, but life comes out. The same example. The solution of man and woman is there, but life must come there. Then there will be pregnancy. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). Find out this, Third Canto. (pause)

Rūpānuga: After this experiment, Śrīla Prabhupāda, scientists reinterpreted the experiment to mean an entirely different thing. Can you explain that, Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu, How they made it seem the opposite of what Pasteur intended?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, there are two interpretations. One is saying that give enough length of time, long time period in this Pasteur's experiment, then they are proposing that something is bound to happen.

Prabhupāda: The same thing—you are giving more time, and here it is less time. But more time means you are expecting something to come. That is our answer. Here you are giving more time when the situation is not favorable. So more time means when the situation will be favorable the life will come from outside. That is our answer. Here the situation is favorable, the life has come immediately. But you are waiting. Waiting means you are waiting, the life coming from outside, not this solution will... Is it not? Waiting means you are just waiting for the favorable situation, to receive.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Second point was they intend to...

Prabhupāda: But this time factor is answered. You are waiting. You cannot do that. You are waiting for this favorable situation.

Rūpānuga: They say wait..., "In the future, after I die..."

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why shall I wait if I can get immediately? That is intelligence.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, they are cheating.

Prabhupāda: Cheating. That's all. Which can be done in few days, why shall I wait for millions of years?

Hari-śauri: That verse, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa? Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa

jantur dehopapattaye

striyāḥ praviṣṭa udaraṁ

puṁso retaḥ-kaṇāśrayaḥ

(SB 3.31.1)

"The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semina to assume a particular type of body."

Prabhupāda: The life comes from the man. The living entity takes shelter of the semina, and the semina is discharged in the womb of the woman, and if the situation is favorable, then the living entity remains there and that body develops. This is pregnancy. And that yoni, that mother, is situated, selected by daiva-netreṇa, by superior management: "This man has worked..., this living entity has worked in such a way, he should go to such and such womb." Then if he goes to a queen's womb he becomes a prince; if he goes to the dog's womb he becomes a dog. The mother gives the body. And the superior's order is there, "Now you must go to the dog's womb. He must go to the queen's womb." Otherwise, how it is from the birth one is prince, another is dog, if there is no superior? Who likes to become a dog? No. But according to his karma, by superior arrangement, he has to take. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). He has infected the contamination of material modes of nature, and he must develop a type of body according to that consciousness. Just like if you contaminate some disease, germ, then you must suffer from that disease. This is the mystery of birth. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu. Otherwise, why there are difference of varieties of life? Sat, asat, something good, something bad. That he does not know. He works independently, defies the laws of nature, and becomes implicated. And on account of dull brain, he is punished, "Stand up here for ten thousands of years. Become a tree," that's all. That is the result of his dullness. "Remain here for ten thousand years, a dull brain. Even one cuts, you cannot protest. You suffer all kinds of natural disturbances." This is very sinful when you become a tree. And they do not make any distinction between life and matter. These things are going on. There is no knowledge, and they are passing as scientist, as philosopher. Why varieties of life? What is the scientific explanation? One life, he is prince; one life, he is tree. Why this difference? Is there any explanation? There must be some explanation. It is also life, it is also life. Why one life has got this prince body, another this tree body? Kāraṇam..., Bhagavad-gītā, kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The cause is association of different types of material modes of nature. If you keep yourself dull as the tree, without associating with the modes of goodness, without becoming a brāhmaṇa, then you become a tree. That's all. And if you become a brāhmaṇa, then develop your association with goodness and go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore human life should be fully engaged, athāto brahma jijñāsā, simply for understanding Brahman. And as soon as you understand brahma-jānāti iti brāhmaṇa, then you are brāhmaṇa. And as soon as you are brāhmaṇa, then you act as a brāhmaṇa, sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Then you become Vaiṣṇava. When you become Vaiṣṇava, tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti, you are hankering after Viṣṇu. Then your life is success. And to keep them dull brained, like these trees and mountains, that is the greatest disservice in the human society. They have got the capacity to become a brāhmaṇa, and they are keeping him just like a dull-brained mountain and tree. That we want to stop this. It is suicidal, suicidal to the human society. They have got the chance of becoming a brāhmaṇa, and they are keeping them as dull-brained trees and mountains. The modern civilization, most harmful civilization. Denying the facility. One has got the capacity to become a brāhmaṇa, and they are denying the facility, to keep him to remain like hogs and dogs. Whole day and night, work hard to find out some stool, and as soon as we get some stool, a little strength, then have sex without any discrimination. This is civilization. The Vedic civilization forbids: nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). If you have created a civilization like the hogs who are working day and night hard to find out some stool, and as soon as he eats some stool, his sex power is agitated, and he doesn't care whether mother, sister or daughter, that is hog's life, hog civilization. Work day and night, and have sex. This is hog civilization. And next life become a tree, become a dull-headed tree, a dull-headed stone, mountain. Or dull-headed elephant. Who knows the laws of creation, how one becomes elephant, how one becomes hog, how one becomes a demigod? Do the scientists know it? Then? Where is the knowledge? The knowledge is "Wait for million years, then you'll see life." Just see.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's their most favorite slogan.

Hari-śauri: "Wait."

Prabhupāda: Just see. I'm immediately going to become a dog, and I have to wait for millions of years. Just see. This is their nonsense. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), as soon as you give up this body, you get another body. The greatest scientist, Kṛṣṇa, says. And he says "Wait for millions of years." So shall I take Kṛṣṇa or the scientist? Kṛṣṇa says "Immediately," and you haven't got to wait for millions of years for a boy to become a young man. It takes few years. Does it require millions of years for a boy to grow as young man? By nature's way, it is immediately, a few years. Every moment, the body is changing. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Anyway, fight with this ignorance. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means fighting with ignorance. That's it. Mūḍho 'yaṁ nābhijānāti loko mām ajam avyayam (BG 7.25). What is the next verse? You read it? That is very interesting chapter. You read the purport.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "As stated in the last chapter, after suffering different kinds of hellish conditions, a man comes again to the human form of body. The same topic is continued in this chapter. In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semina of a man who is just suitable to become his father. During sexual intercourse, the soul is transferred through the semina of the father into the mother's womb in order to produce a particular type of body. This process is applicable to all embodied living entities, but it is especially mentioned for the man who has transferred to the Andha-tāmisra hell. After suffering there, when he who has had many types of hellish bodies, like those of dogs and hogs, is to come again to the human form, he is given the chance to take his birth in the same type of body from which he degraded himself to hell. Everything is done by the supervision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Material nature supplies the body, but it does so under the direction of the Supersoul. It is said in Bhagavad-gītā that a living entity is wandering in this material world on a chariot made by material nature. The Supreme Lord, as Supersoul, is always present with the individual soul. He directs material nature to supply a particular type of body to the individual soul according to the result of his work, and the material nature supplies it. Here one word, retaḥ-kaṇāśrayaḥ, is very significant because it indicates that it is not the semina of the man that creates life within the womb of a woman; rather, the living entity, the soul, takes shelter in a particle of semina and is then pushed into the womb of a woman. Then the body develops. There is no possibility of creating a living entity without the presence of the soul, simply by sexual intercourse."

Prabhupāda: This is outside. This is not the combination of the solution. The soul is coming from outside. The same theory. It is not the solution which is creating life.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The materialistic theory that there is no soul and that a child is born simply by material combination of a man's and woman's semina is not very feasible. It is unacceptable."

Prabhupāda: Next verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Text two. Kalalaṁ tv eka-rātreṇa, pañca-rātreṇa budbudam.

Prabhupāda: He's giving description of one day, one night, next night, next night, like that, every description.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

kalalaṁ tv eka-rātreṇa

pañca-rātreṇa budbudam

daśāhena tu karkandhūḥ

peśy aṇḍaṁ vā tataḥ param

(SB 3.31.2)

Translation: "On the first night, the semina and ovum mix, and on the fifth night, the mixture ferments into a bubble."

Prabhupāda: The same thing.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "On the tenth night it develops into a form like a plum, and after that, gradually it turns into a lump of flesh or an egg, as the case may be." Purport. "The body of the soul develops in four different ways according to its different sources. One kind of body, that of the trees and plants, sprouts from the earth; the second kind of body grows from perspiration, as with flies, germs and bugs; the third kind of body develops from eggs; and the fourth develops from an embryo. This verse indicates that after emulsification of the ovum and semina, the body gradually develops either into a lump of flesh or into an egg, as the case may be. In the case of birds it develops into an egg, and in the case of animals and human beings it develops into a lump of flesh."

Prabhupāda: Then? Next verse.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:

māsena tu śiro dvābhyāṁ

bāhv-aṅghry-ādy-aṅga-vigrahaḥ

nakha-lomāsthi-carmāṇi

liṅga-cchidrodbhavas tribhiḥ

(SB 3.31.3)

Translation. "In the course of a month, a head is formed, and at the end of two months, hands, feet and other limbs take shape. By the end of three months, the nails, fingers, toes, body hair, bone and skin appear, as do the organ of generation and the other apertures in the body, namely the eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth and anus."

Prabhupāda: The same thing. Fermentation is going on, and the living entity takes a form. Then flies. And they say, from the water it is coming, flies, mosquito. The same process for development. That's all. Everything is explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, what happens to the soul when you have an abortion, though? Where does it go?

Prabhupāda: Goes to another body. Dehāntara. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). If you do not allow him to this body, he goes to another body. Just like if you drive me from this apartment, I must go somewhere. I must find out another apartment. It is not that I am finished. You force me to go out of this apartment. So I go to a friend's house or anywhere, I must go.

Devotee (1): Would that also be due to that soul's karma, that he has gone from being aborted on to another body?

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily, but you create a karma. You are responsible for that.

Hari-śauri: So it's not necessarily that he's receiving some sinful reaction from past work that he's not allowed to enter.

Prabhupāda: That may be, but you are responsible for that. Because you are driving me from this apartment by force. Actually, in a higher sense, that is accepted, that he was to be driven away. But because you are driving, you are responsible for that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now this experiment, another interpretation of these material scientists is that they claim that this experiment disproved the vital theory. But on other hand, actually, the opposite is true, that he proved that there is a vital theory, rather, that spirit must be there. That was actually proved by this experiment also. But the mentality of these scientists are so demoniac that they twist the truth around... (break) RNA is a big molecule and that is actually transferred from this DNA molecule. DNA molecule, they call it the master molecule from which everything comes, all the molecules. Now if we see this carefully, we can see at every step that there is a specific direction and information without which this whole machinery will break down.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Find out this verse. Vedaiś ca sarvair... So "If you want to acquire knowledge how these molecules are working, so you must know it is coming from Me, the direction is coming from Me." You are waiting, wherefrom this direction is coming. Kṛṣṇa says "This direction is coming from Me." Mattaḥ, "from Me." Then the Absolute Truth, it is recognized.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And the scientists are mistaking the effects for the causes? The molecules are working under Kṛṣṇa's direction.

Prabhupāda: Working under the direction, yes, under the direction of the Supersoul. That is stated, mattaḥ, "from Me."

Hari-śauri: Shall I read it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri:

sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo

mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca

vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham

(BG 15.15)

"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known; indeed, I am the compiler of the Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas."

Prabhupāda: So you are searching, you are surprised how this direction is coming. Here is the answer, mattaḥ, "from Me." The answer is there.

Sadāpūta: A comparison can be made with things like this, and, say, a computerized factory. A computerized factory, there has to be direction all the time, or else it breaks down.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that direction is coming from Kṛṣṇa. He is all-perfect.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The instructions are given so vividly here, that first there is called the initiation step. It has to get specific information coded in this, they are called bases, and now, then it elongates, and then finally it's called stop signal. There's some message coming that "You stop right there." And if there is some mistake or something wrong along the path, then there will be a correction signal: "You made a mistake, so correct there." This type of...

Prabhupāda: Just see how perfect. How perfect it is. (laughs) Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Because the direction is coming from the pūrṇam, complete, so correction is made and everything is done, everything nicely. Because the direction is coming from the complete perfect, there cannot be any mistake. That's it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is actually the first step of protein synthesis. In order to make proteins, this messenger RNA has to be transcribed from this DNA molecule. In the next step you'll see the final step for protein synthesis. Now there are also RNA's—they are called transfer RNA, those white-colored, white and yellow-colored things. (laughter) Each of them has to bring a specific amino acid, coded to a specific code, three base codes, base pair. Now each of them has to bring a specific amino acid and to put it together in a very specific manner. They cannot scramble. Because if it scrambles there's not going to be...

Prabhupāda: Again mistake, again mistake.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So it cannot happen.

Prabhupāda: Just rightly. So much direction is there, perfect.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. So like that, then, when the..., once they bring these amino acids one by one, then they stick together, and that also process is done by enzymes. There are so many steps involved, and very intricate. It is actually done by a catalyst called enzymes. Enzymes are also very big molecules, actually they are also proteins, and in each step the enzymes are so specific that they do only one specific function just for the right purpose, and once this is done then slowly the protein separates at the right time and with the proper length and proper number of amino acids. In this way, actually we can prove in every case that...

Prabhupāda: Perfect direction.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the direction of the Supersoul is a necessity. In whatever condition we look at, even in the molecules.

Prabhupāda: So nice management, there must be nice direction.

Rūpānuga: No question of chance.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Kṛṣṇa is in every atom.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and He... If somebody says how the atoms are working like that, the Kṛṣṇa's..., Brahmā says, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. He is within the atom also, the Supreme. Therefore it is acting so nice. Eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭim (Bs. 5.35). Whole material world is going on under His direction, and He is acting within the atom also. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. As He is directing this cosmic arrangement, similarly He is directing from the atom, within the atom also. That is omnipotency.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we want to develop these concepts and prove...

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa will help you.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now later on, when Sadāpūta speaks, there will be similar concepts, but that is applied to the human platform called inspiration-inspiration and proving the existence of Paramātmā, Supersoul. Actually, it ties together very well. Even from the molecular level we can see this, and in the human platform actually it is very vividly,...

Prabhupāda: Manifested.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can feel it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in all branches of study, either it is physical or chemical or mathematical, in all branches of science, we want to show the existence of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: His hand is working.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). That is the fact. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So these are some of the chemical concepts that I described earlier. Next Sadāpūta will take over, and he'll describe the mathematical and physical concepts of proving the existence of Paramātmā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, do it.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to (indistinct) tonight Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Why not? What business we have got? (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shall I offer it for you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sadāpūta: This slide shows..., these are the laws of nature according to physicists. And the point we make is that this is their understanding of the final cause of things, and it's very limited. Actually, on this one page, these equations describe everything that goes into all the actions and interactions of chemistry according to their present understanding. And, so there are two main points to make about this. Number one, these are very..., these laws describe very simple forces, pushes and pulls between atoms and things like that. And so intuitively it is very hard to imagine why such simple forces should cause anything complex to organize itself together. Now the scientists customarily make the assertion that laws like this are universal, but one thing we can notice is they have no proof of that. These laws which they say are universal are only studied in certain limited experimental situations with inanimate matter, and then they extrapolate and they say that they apply to everything. But actually the equations are so hard to solve even for reasonably simple molecules that they can't actually test out their assertion. So it's actually just a bluffing statement. So in this slide we wanted to point out how limited these laws are, how limited their concept of the laws of nature is. The next slide, according to the scientist's idea, there are two things going on—these laws and also chance. So this is a calculation showing what happens if you just have chance acting to form one of these proteins that Svarūpa Dāmodara was talking about, and you can calculate... Actually here you calculate, suppose you threw a protein together at chance—and here we even allow a ten percent error, you're allowing to get it wrong among ten percent of the proteins—but still chance comes out to ten minus two-hundred-and forty-fourth-power. Now the scientists are always saying if you wait for a long enough time, even something very unlikely can happen; but here we have a calculation of how long you'd have to wait, according to mathematics and the probability theory, and even if you assume an unrealistically high rate of forming proteins at random, still you'd have to wait, according to this, ten to the hundred-and-sixty-seventh-power billion years. And that's a little bit too long. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is mathematics.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's longer than Brahmā's life.

Sadāpūta: So mathematics shows that chance alone would never begin to produce the things that go into life, because this, say, is just for one protein, but it's estimated in the simplest cell that they experiment with that there are some three thousand proteins. This is what they estimate. And in a human, in a single cell of the human body, they estimate three hundred thousand, or even three million. It's just an estimate. But it shows that chance is completely unrealistic. Now the scientists will say that both chance and natural laws somehow mysteriously go together in what they call natural selection to produce living structures. In the next slide, this is also a calculation, and it shows that that is not correct either, at least as far as the mathematics goes. What this says is suppose you look at the earth and you're going to wait four point five billion years—that's what they estimate is the age of the earth—and ask what is the chance of finding a given organized structure. And mathematically there's a thing called information theory, and you can show that the chance of getting an organized structure with a high level of information goes down exponentially, so that for an amount of information higher than that of the laws that cause these things to move, the chance goes down practically to zero. So it wouldn't happen. So this gets kind of complicated, but there's a basic point behind it; namely it indicates that the natural laws that are causing things, like that list of those laws, must already have in them, built into them, whatever is going to be manifested. That is, if some given structure can be manifested in the material world, that means the laws that are causing things must already have at least that much built into them. But their understanding of natural laws, the laws are too simple, too short to have that kind of thing built into them. So there's that argument. We'll go on to the next one. This is some mathematical formulas related to that. I don't think we should dwell on that. This slide right here gives an example of the kind of structures you find even in simple organisms. This is a bacterium. When they look at it under a microscope, they can see that this bacterium has a reversible motor built into it, and this motor spins a spiral flagellum, and by spinning it it propels the bacteria through the water, just like a submarine. So this very sophisticated motor is built into the wall of the bacterium. So that shows the kind of structures for which designs would have to be there. Actually, the scientific explanation, the way that they explain how this comes about, is completely impossible, because they would say that either by chance it came about all at once—and the chances are way too small, so that would never happen—or else it would have to come by small stages somehow. But what would be a small stage in the formation of a workable motor? Can't even think of how that would work. So it doesn't make much sense. So what we wanted to argue was that these living structures are very highly complex, they have a very great amount of information needed to specify them, and then mathematically it follows that this evolution process can't happen, because the probability is way down, it's something impossible. So we wanted to argue that. The next slide—whoops, we're going the wrong way, there. We wanted to compare some structures. This is the chemist's idea of what a diamond..., the top picture is a chemist's idea of what the structure of a diamond looks like. It's based on very simple repeating patterns. It's reasonable perhaps that chemical pushes and pulls could produce a simple design like this just by pulling the molecules together. The lower thing is a structure for graphite, which is another simple design built on hexagons. But on the other hand, in living systems you have things like this. (shows slide) According to the way they've analyzed it, there are chemical structures of this complexity. So we'd like to argue that this requires a very large amount of information to specify this thing, and so the simple natural laws couldn't account for this. On the other hand, it's very reasonable to suppose that an intelligent designer can account for things like that. These protein structures that Svarūpa Dāmodara was pointing out, it's not just any old structure, but it performs a very specific function within the cell, just like a little automatic machine of some kind. So we'd like to argue that the chance and molecular forces theory won't explain things like this, but to say that there is an intelligent designer would be a sensible explanation. The next slide, this shows some of the complexities of what goes on inside a cell, and it's only a fraction of what is there. It's hard to read, but each little bit of print refers to some very complicated chemical reaction involving big molecules like the one in the last slide. So there are hundreds of reactions like that on this one page, and this page is one out of four from a chart that we found detailing some of these things. This metabolism goes on even in the most primitive cells like this bacterium, and yet it's only a fraction of the total of what goes on. The scientists will admit they've only made a fractional study of all that's going on in these cells. So that kind of argument is one line of reasoning we'd like to present. (another slide) Now this refers to another thing. We'd like to describe the concept of consciousness as being something not material—nonphysical and nonchemical. And it turns out that actually in modern physics that's already a basic principle, and it's been that way for the last fifty or sixty years, but that's not widely admitted or taught in the schools. But actually in modern physics, it's called quantum mechanics. They realize that in order to describe physical processes you have to include the observer in the picture; you can't describe these things without accounting for the observer, and so they made an analysis. This was done by von Neumann, who was one of these physicists. He analyzed the difference between the observer and the observed. So here we have a man looking through, say, a microscope at some object, and you can see that in this case you can draw the line between the observer and the observed. So the man is observing the microscope plus object. And physically there are, according to the physicist's idea, there are these equations, represented by number one, equation number one, which describe all the molecules and forces of interaction on the observed side. But there's another kind of equation that goes in quantum mechanics, which corresponds to the observer's side, and this equation is completely different from the first equation. So this indicates that the observer must be something different in nature from the observed. Now the next slide shows here the boundary between the observer and the observed is moved. It's kind of arbitrary. You can move the boundary back so now the observed becomes the eyeball and the microscope and the object, and the observer is still on the other side. And the basic idea is you can move this boundary back, step by step, and on one side you can put, at least in principle, more and more of the parts of the body into the observed system, but on the other side you still have the observer, and he continues to be described by an equation that can't be reduced to the force laws that are used to describe the observed. So the conclusion is that the observer must be something nonphysical. He's not actually part of that physical body at all. So that's actually basic in quantum mechanics. So we wanted to present that. Now this slide... There's another line of evidence here. It's the inspiration, and Śrīla Prabhupāda has said that intelligence is the form direction of Supersoul. So it's interesting, it's really striking to observe how various people create things in mathematics and science and art, like that. It's very striking. So we made two examples here. This one is a mathematician names Gauss. He lived in the nineteenth century, and his concern was to solve mathematical problems. The interesting thing is that in a very difficult mathematical problem, the person never solves it by figuring it out consciously, step by step. But what happens is that he tries very hard to figure it out for a long time, and nothing happens, and then all of a sudden the answer comes to him. So it's hard to read that quote. This is a quotation by this Gauss describing how that happened to him.

Devotee: "I've succeeded not on account of my painful effort, but by the grace of God. Like a sudden flash of lightning, the riddle happened to be solved. I myself cannot say but when the conducting thread which connected what I previously knew with what made my success possible."

Prabhupāda: So the chance theory is the grace of God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Grace of God?

Prabhupāda: Yes, because if God sees that the rascal is trying for so many years, "All right, give him a chance." (laughter) That is His mercifulness. So what they call chance theory, that is grace of God.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So God is all-merciful.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is the proof.

Sadāpūta: Actually, this couldn't come about by just chance, because the number of possibilities...

Prabhupāda: There is, but he takes it as chance. All the possibilities taken together he is given by God. That he does not know. He takes it as chance. But there is no question of chance. It is the gift of God.

Sadāpūta: Next example, this is another example taken from music. This example is Mozart. Mozart was a musician. He composed symphonies. And in that quote which-I'll just summarize it instead of reading it—he explains how it was that he created these symphonies. He explained that actually what happened was that ideas just came into his mind, melodic themes and so on, and he says "Whence do they come I do not know, and I have nothing to do with it." And actually what would happen was that an entire symphony would just blossom into his mind, and he wouldn't even know where it was coming from. So...

Prabhupāda: Unknown.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unknown source.

Sadāpūta: So we want to argue that this demonstrates that Supersoul is acting. These cases of these very famous musicians and scientists and such, there are many of them, they can be multiplied at great length, and they are very striking that way.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are about to make a slide of Kavirāja, Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, about the, writing Caitanya-caritāmṛta on the same line, direction of Supersoul. We had... But couldn't put together. We'll make several slides along these lines proving the existence of Supersoul on the human level.

Sadāpūta: We are also thinking that this inspiration illustrated the modes of nature and the law of karma to some extent, because like the mathematician had to struggle very painfully for a very long time without getting his result, and then he got it, so that seemed more like the mode of passion and like that. But Mozart apparently just got these things without having to struggle for them, as though that was his past karma or something. Next slide. This is a summary of the basic kind of argument we wanted to make. The picture on the left, those ovals represent states of matter, configurations of matter, and they go from simple, toward the bottom, like just a chemical solution, up towards more complex as you go up, like living bodies of different kinds. The theory of evolution is sort of indicated in the left-hand one. According to that theory, you have very simple natural laws, and you start out with simple physical states, but somehow these natural laws produce a progressive increase in order, as indicated by those arrows going up. But actually we want to argue that simple natural laws don't have the power to do that, and that the situation on the right is what would happen if you just had simple natural laws, namely they would keep shoving things around on a simple level but never produce anything complex. The next slide, though, indicates that if you had natural laws with a high order of complexity, then they could manifest physical situations with a high order of complexity also, depending on how much was built into the laws. So we wanted to, in these two examples, indicate a higher and higher order of natural laws. So what we wanted to do was then combine these two things together, on the one hand that consciousness is not a physical phenomenon, and on the other hand, that in order to get...

Prabhupāda: This is physical, but subtle.

Sadāpūta: The actual perception of the soul is not...?

Prabhupāda: Perception of the soul is there, but this physical demonstration is of the soul by consciousness. The more it is purified, it becomes spiritual. The consciousness is there. The more it is purified, then it becomes spiritual. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). It has to be purified. The water is crystal clear, but when it comes in touch with the earth it becomes muddy. But again you can clarify it, and water becomes crystal clear. That consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Sadāpūta: So we wanted to then say that, a few lines of reasoning, that you have to have higher-ordered laws to cause complex forms...

Prabhupāda: That higher-order laws is explained, mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ?

Prabhupāda: Sūyate sa-carācaram, hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate. Things are going down on account of the superior direction.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, that is shown in the next slide.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Devotee (1): What are you doing?

Sadāpūta: I want that next slide on there. There it is.

Prabhupāda: There. Yato vā imāni bhūtāni jāyante.

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

(BG 10.8)

Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Here is vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. Find out this verse, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). This is Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva must be, and from Him, everything is coming. That is real knowledge.

Hari-śauri:

bahūnāṁ janmanām ante

jñānavān māṁ prapadyate

vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti

sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ

(BG 7.19)

"After many births and deaths..."

Prabhupāda: It is conclusion, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti. So you are mahātmā, sudurlabhaḥ, not ordinary rascal mathematician. (laughter) But you are real mathematician, that vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). Read the purport.

Hari-śauri: "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." Purport. "The living entity, while executing devotional service or transcendental rituals after many, many births may actually become situated in transcendental pure knowledge that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate goal of spiritual realization. In the beginning of spiritual realization, while one is trying to give up one's attachment to materialism, there is some leaning towards impersonalism. But when one is further advanced he can understand that there are activities in the spiritual life and that these activities constitute devotional service. Realizing this, he becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and surrenders to Him. At such a time one can understand that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa's mercy is everything, that He is the cause of all causes, and that this material manifestation is not independent from Him. He realizes the material world to be a perverted reflection of spiritual variegatedness and realizes that in everything there is a relationship with the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Thus he thinks of everything in relation to Vāsudeva, or Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Such a universal vision of Vāsudeva precipitates one's full surrender to the Supreme Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa as the highest goal. Such surrendered great souls are very rare. This verse is very nicely explained in the Third Chapter of Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad: 'In this body there are power of speaking, of seeing, of hearing, of mental activities, etc. But these are not important if not related to the Supreme Lord. And because Vasudeva is all-pervading and everything is Vasudeva, the devotee surrenders in full knowledge.' "

Prabhupāda: Vāsudeva, surrenders. That's nice. All right, continue tomorrow. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19).

Devotees: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Distribute this prasādam. (break) Janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam (SB 1.2.7). Vairāgya and jñāna, both thing will develop, Vāsudeva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take prasādam. Give him twice, he has worked very hard. (laughter) Double, you should give double. So Kṛṣṇa will bless you. So push this scientific movement, go to every university, every college. How they are receiving now in the college circles?

Sadāpūta: We gave a lecture a couple of days ago in Gainesville, and it was interesting. We actually gave a couple of TV interviews.

Prabhupāda: How they received it?

Sadāpūta: Well in the class, at first the professor said "That's completely fallacious." But he quieted down.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they will say like that, "fallacious," but you have to make them down. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the TV it was very favorable. The interview was just a professor at the University of Florida, and he's a professor of religion and history. We were speaking how life comes from life from a philosophical and scientific point of view, and he received very well and asked questions also.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the very complex molecules, very slight probability, practically none, that this could happen by chance. There has to be some intelligence. It is very good argument for chemistry point of view.

Hari-śauri: Even anyone with a little common sense can understand that a very simple thing cannot produce a highly complicated thing. It's such an obvious point, but they have to have so many mathematical equations to accept it.

Prabhupāda: Dictaphone, so many complicated, then it is working.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And if one slight thing is off...

Prabhupāda: Immediately, work stopped.

Hari-śauri: Yes, he made that point, in that he said that in the development of a motor, he said the whole thing has to be there, the whole idea has to be there to start with, to make the motor and to make it work, then it works.

Prabhupāda: It is good.

Hari-śauri: It's very convincing, this presentation.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think they are mahātmās, no doubt, it's just that most chemists, most scientists are very, very skeptical. Going from ovals,(?) and all of a sudden they see the form of Viṣṇu.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would be a great shock for the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Whose brain is there.

Hari-śauri: Maybe they should explain that in a little more detail, that in that higher order, that he put in the slide, there was one box that said "higher-order laws," so then they have to explain that if there's laws then there's lawmaker, that means higher intelligence, so that means a higher personality.

Prabhupāda: That is explained. Vāsudeva is higher. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The difficulty is that they compare Vāsudeva to themselves. They think that "I am so unintelligent and tiny, I can't even create anything, but how can one person create all of these things, down to the tiniest atom?" Such an extraordinary...

Prabhupāda: Therefore He is God. He's not dog like you, barking only and doing nothing. (Prabhupāda knocks on table or flooring) What is this stone?

Hari-śauri: Marble. It's a type of Italian marble, I think. They call it terrazzo. Something like that.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's very soft underneath.

Hari-śauri: They often put this on the facings of buildings, big buildings.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Comes off on the fingers, very soft stone.

Hari-śauri: In Detroit temple, that stairway that goes up, this is the same marble, marble steps.

Prabhupāda: Move this.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like this fan on at all, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (end)

(break—next day)

Rūpānuga: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu, You want to ask some questions?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: What is that? Astronomical chart?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it was just, Pradyumna was just telling me all this,... Yes, astronomical chart, about the moons, and...

Prabhupāda: Astrological?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, astrological.

Prabhupāda: He has become astrologer. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we thought, now, the biologists have a difficult time in defining species. It's not very clear, the way they do it. Now we want to bring up the concept that the, by the combination of the three modes of material nature produce all these different varieties of species. We say 8,400,000. And on that line...

Prabhupāda: 8,400,000.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, now along that line, we want to make a nice chart on...

Prabhupāda: Chart is already there, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, nine hundred thousand species. Not species, forms.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Now we want to make a very clear distinction of, say, the mode of goodness and mode of passion and ignorance. And we want to give some very specific examples...

Prabhupāda: The demigods, they are in goodness. And the human being in passion, and the animals in ignorance. That is general division.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The animals are ignorance. But now even we come to the, let's say,...

Prabhupāda: Nitijugdeva.(?) Deva means demigods, they are in goodness. And human being in passion, and animals in ignorance. This is general division.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: What about the plants and other smaller...?

Prabhupāda: That is also animals, less, still more in dense darkness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The other point along this line, we also wanted to, even in the same animal or bird kingdom...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You can very minutely distinguish, this is the general division. Then there is minute division. That is numbering about 8,400,000.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Under that category, that minor divisions, now let's take the animals. Even in the animal kingdom, there are some animals which are influenced...

Prabhupāda: From the animals down, it is all ignorance.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Animals down, all ignorance.

Rūpānuga: What about like the cow, little goodness in it, mixed?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rūpānuga: And the lion, little passion?

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, everywhere there is mixture. Otherwise, how it comes to 8,000,000? There is mixture. But this is the general division. Now you cannot make how much passion, how much goodness is there. That you can understand from the behavior. But this is general division. We can speak of general division. The minute division is made by nature. That nature's study, one who can study nature, then he can do that.

Rūpānuga: That means to study the activity, psychology of the...

Prabhupāda: So all the qualities are working, mixed up practically. But prominently like this. Here you cannot have any quality completely of that quality. Other qualities are there, but prominently that particular... Just like demigods. They also become sometimes passionate, sometimes ignorant. So in this material world it is very difficult to find out pure modes of nature in anything. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sometimes some quality prominent, sometimes some quality is prominent. So the best thing is to become transcendental to all these qualities. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That is devotional service. Śuddha-sattva, completely pure goodness. That is wanted.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is not the direction that we were thinking. We were thinking that we could give some specific examples. We understand that the modes of nature are mixed, but even then... Now let's take birds. A bird like swan likes to be very clean habit, likes to live in a nice environment like lotus and clean water, but on the other hand birds like eagle, very passionate, wants to...

Prabhupāda: Crow.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Crow is rather very ignorant and wants to be very dirty, whereas...

Prabhupāda: So what you will do by such study?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: By this...

Prabhupāda: Generalize the divisions, that's all. But none of the divisions are spiritual. Our aim is to come to the spiritual platform. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Not that to increase goodness and keep a less quantity passion and ignorance. Be completely free from all the three qualities, that is required.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that is our philosophy, but...

Prabhupāda: So some other living entity who is prominent in this quality, prominent that, it does not make much difference. So long he is in the material qualities, he's entrapped. So get him out of this condition and put him into the spiritual platform. That is the solution. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. In the material world if you think that the quantity of goodness is now big than the other modes of nature, that does not make a solution. Next moment the passion will be prominent, next moment the ignorance will be prominent. You cannot check it or fix him up in one quality. It is not possible. That is not possible. The best thing is to bring him to the unconditional stage, transcendental stage. Sa guṇān... Keep him engaged in devotional service, he is free from influence of all these qualities. That is wanted.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is on a human platform, but we wanted to appeal purely on a scientific level to the scientists. Now in order to bring these concepts that these three modes of nature, because of mixing of these three modes of nature it produces different species, varieties of species... Now this is completely unknown to them. They have no idea about these modes. So somehow we thought if we bring some specific examples like this, that looking the products of nature as a source, not worrying about transcendental or not, (microphone rattling)

Prabhupāda: What is the use of such things? If you particularly study that this living entity is now in this mode, say goodness fifty percent and passion ten percent, in this way, but it can change at any moment. You cannot fix it up.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is good, because if we argue this we can always defeat this concept of evolution. Our main point is to defeat the concept of evolution.

Prabhupāda: No, no, evolution is already there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Evolution means material evolution, from chemicals.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not evolution. The species are already there, 8,400,000. Now the living entity is changing the position. The status is already there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but they don't understand that.

Prabhupāda: They don't understand. That is their foolishness.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that's why we want to bring up this point that...

Prabhupāda: You can bring up. This is the position. Just like there are apartments are already there. Sometimes I am coming here, sometimes going there, but this is the position. I'm not fixed up. Similarly, living entity, as soon as he changes his mind, the apartment is ready. Here is your position. Again he changes, "Here, here is your position." They are already there. Not that for him especially being created. The species are already there. As soon as he fixes himself up particular species, he's transferred, daiva-netreṇa karmaṇā. He gets a similar body, "Come on, here, take this body." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). These are explained. So he's transmigrating, he's not fixed up. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). He gets, by his desire, he gets a particular body. Then after some time he changes to another body.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That we understand, only your Divine Grace's disciples, but not everyone.

Prabhupāda: Then you try to make understand others that this is the position.

Rūpānuga: One thing is, the modern biologists, they have no...

Prabhupāda: You cannot, you cannot... What is your question?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The question is, now we want to argue that how is it possible, now you are claiming that life is coming from molecules? If you claim like that, then how is it possible that in the same species, let's say in the birds, that these qualities are spreading? Some birds we see behave like a little influenced by the modes of goodness, though it is mixed. Like swan, we are taking that example. But some are like eagle, very passionate, wants to kill small birds as their food, and on the other hand, birds like crows, they like just to be completely ignorant, or they like to survive in a dirty environment. Why? Is this possible just from the concept of molecular evolution? It's completely, it's failing. They have no explanation along those terms. So we thought to bring up these points, it will be very clear that this evolution is completely wrong. So we want to use that...

Prabhupāda: There is no question of evolution. It is already there. This is a wrong theory. The monkey is there, the man is there. The soul is going from monkey to man. It is not the evolution. Just like you have got apartment, ten rupees, five rupees, twenty rupees, thirty rupees, like that. Now, as you pay, "Come on, here." There is no question of evolution. It is already there. Jantur dehopapattaye. These dehas, these bodies, are already there. So immediately it develops a particular type of desire, "Yes, come here, sit down." First class, second class, third class, fourth class is already there. As you pay, "Yes, come here." It is not evolving; it is already there. He is transferred from one apartment to another. This has to be convinced. We don't find that monkey's body became a human body. That is not in the experience, anyone. The monkey is there, the human being is there. But the soul is going from monkey's body to human's body, or monkey's body to another body. That is by superior administration. Their theory is the body is evolving and some body is missing. Nothing is missing. Every body is there. The soul is being transferred from one body to another. Asatims caturam caiva laksams jīva jātiṣu.(?) Jāti means the form of the body. So the form of the body is already there, and the living entity is being transferred from one body to another. This is called transmigration. We have come here, not that that room developed. This room is here, that room is there, but I am transferring. Because they have no idea of soul, they are thinking that this nice room, now transform into this room or this room, transform... This is foolishness. A civil man transferred into jail—not that his civil house becomes jail. They are thinking wrongly like that, Darwin's theory. Body becoming changed. No. The different types of bodies are already there. The living entity is being transferred from one body to another. Just try to explain. So evolution you take that this apartment is better than that apartment, that apartment better than, and a living entity's going from one after another. So this is evolution. That you are now getting salary, one thousand dollar, now you get fifteen hundred dollars. So according to your qualification, you are getting.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When we talk about evolution, in our understanding, evolution is evolution of consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say karma. Evolution of karma. So karma is also based on consciousness. If you like to do a particular type of work, that can be changed, consciousness.

Rūpānuga: We can give them some examples. There's no harm, is there? To give them some example of different kinds of work and activity?

Prabhupāda: Just like eating. You are eating meat, you can give it up. If you think it is not good, you can give it up. What is the wrong there?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you think giving examples, or like making a division of these animals under category of these three modes is not proper? After all, all the modes are mixed. Now can we say that a cow is, although there are other modes, but predominantly the mode of goodness?

Prabhupāda: Predominantly ignorance. Cow, just like cows, or, yes...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cows, then tigers, lions we can give predominantly passion. Now coming to either camels or pigs we can call ignorance.

Prabhupāda: So many, very subtle, subtle mixture. That subtleness of mixture is impossible for you to analyze.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that's true. So we shouldn't do this?

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said daiva-netreṇa, superior administration. You cannot do it.

Rūpānuga: We have to simply teach them that evolution really means some...

Prabhupāda: It's taking place in this way, that's all. That much you can say. You cannot actually analyze a particular body, what percentage of this or... That's impossible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, we are not analyzing, but we're just giving this by seeing from practical example.

Prabhupāda: That is already there, one life after another. That is already there by superior arrangement. Very fine arrangement, exactly to the percentage of different qualities, the body is already there. Simply the soul has to be put into that body by superior arrangement. Say, first-class passenger, what does he require? The apartment is already made by expert, what is needed for a first-class passenger?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He needs some more money. He must be rich to get a first-class apartment.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but so far arrangement, just like Western hotels, everything is so complete. They know what a first-class man wants. So expert. They have already made. You don't require to say anything, that "I want..." So complete. But the steps are already mentioned. Aquatics, then plants, vegetation, then insects, reptiles, then birds, then beasts. These are the gradual...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we'd like actually to bring out very clearly why the swan is different from a crow. What is it. What makes it different. Why a swan behaves this way and a crow behaves this way.

Prabhupāda: According to combination of these modes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why we want to bring out, that modes of nature, that can explain so many things so nicely, the difference, but science has no background on that.

Prabhupāda: That means you have to analyze different bodies. But that is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which apartment is better than the other apartment, there is description. Just like a dog's body is so made that two furlongs away some newcomer is coming, immediately he will bark, he can immediately understand, perceive. He can smell that "Somebody is coming who is not known to me." Is it not? So he has got that special quality. Even in animals we will find. A fish in the water, two miles away there is some enemy, they can understand by touch.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science calls those chemical senses.

Prabhupāda: These are described in the Bhāgavata, the different perception of different senses, how one is prominent in one animal body. That is described.

Rūpānuga: That is coming? That is not yet printed? I don't remember that description.

Prabhupāda: No, I think that in the Third Canto. In Third Canto there is. You can consult Third Canto. One sense is prominent.

Rūpānuga: Like you have the example the tongue for the fish, an elephant, his genital, and you gave some other, these are there in the Bhāgavatam. The deer, the ear.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's due to the combination of the modes, as a result of the mixing of the three modes in different percentage. So we can even just mention like that in this,

Prabhupāda: That you can take from the authoritative statement you find.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So shall we make an attempt to give these examples like this, or just mention it? What's better? What do you think?

Rūpānuga: Well, one thing, the biologists haven't even really counted up many so-called species themselves. So why should we get into such..., worry about the details? They don't have the detail themselves.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, not details, but we wanted to show that there is such thing as the three modes of nature, they are working, not just by chemical combination these things are produced. We want to say that the three modes are there. Because of the working of the...

Prabhupāda: No, the three modes induces chemical composition. Then RN, DNA (laughs)...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But this is very unique in science itself. It's a very novel concept just from scientific level.

Devotee: The scientists have a desire to explain things. They like to see that you can explain so many different things. Perhaps it doesn't have any real utility to explain,

Prabhupāda: So, as far as possible, you can give explanation from Bhāgavatam. Otherwise, how you can...

Devotee: So by giving these examples then they might think this has very good explanatory power, and they will therefore accept it, they will (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: So the general division in the higher planetary system is the devatās, beginning from sun, moon and other planetary systems, they are in modes of goodness prominent. Less, below that, bhūr bhuvaḥ, they are passionate, and below that, they are ignorant.

Devotee: Do the number of demigods have something to do with the number of species, like there are thirty-three million demigods?

Prabhupāda: There are thirty-three million. Thirty crores. There are also divisions, Gandharvas, Apsarās.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do they belong to these species? They are also included in these eight million four hundred? These Gandharvas?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are counted, what, as human beings?

Prabhupāda: Some of them are devatās, some of them are human being.

Rūpānuga: When we say four hundred thousand species of human beings, that doesn't include all the demigods then.

Prabhupāda: The demigods are like human beings.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Prabhupāda told me that when you become a devotee, you are a demigod. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: The whole evolutionary process means to bring the living entity to the platform of goodness and then transcend that platform also, come to pure goodness. That is devotion.

Devotee: Prabhupāda? You explained that all those forms are already existing. What is the meaning of all those forms if there is no one inhabiting them? Why is it that they all exist without...

Prabhupāda: No, no, how you can say nobody is inhabiting?

Devotee: You said that they are there, you just go to the different forms. So that means they are existing without anyone living there?

Prabhupāda: No, form, a class of form. It can be immediately, that A class, B class, C class, D class. So if you are fit for D class, immediately form for you, a D class body is there, made.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also existing in the sense that in the unmanifested form, before it is manifested, the form is there.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is species. Form is there already. They are existing. So you require to get another form, but the same class. First-class compartment is there. If it is, one bogey is already, first-class filled up, then railroad company brings another bogey and gives place to the passengers. That's all, there is no difficulty. What is the difficulty? Put him into this particular mother's womb and he gets a form, that's all. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Don't compare Kṛṣṇa's power with your power. He can do anything, anyone, immediately.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So called Acintya. (pause) What is the biological concept of species?

Sadāpūta: All they can do is base it on the similarity of what the animals look like. They have trouble counting species. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Are there different meanings, this day of Brahmā? Are there different creations and annihilations of species? Different Manus, they are sometimes flooding the whole earth.

Prabhupāda: There are different, when Brahmā goes to sleep, that is one kind of devastation, and when he dies there is one kind. And during Brahmā's days there are other devastations, manvantara.

Sadāpūta: After a devastation, do the...

Prabhupāda: Different classes of devastation. There are many devastations during Brahmā's day, and there is another devastation during Brahmā's sleep, and another devastation when Brahmā dies.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And during different Manus also.

Prabhupāda: That is day. Such devastation takes place during Brahmā's day. Fourteen Manus.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Do we know that in detail, Śrīla Prabhupāda? What type of species are extinct? Not all the species extinct. As it is during Brahmā's day, that partial annihilation, devastation, now some species are extinct?

Prabhupāda: No species extinct. What you are reading? This is garbage.(?)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The physical forms.

Prabhupāda: No, nothing is extinct. Everything is going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: At that point, they are going to come up with the point that "How about dinosaurs?" They are going to ask like that.

Prabhupāda: That is imagination, where is dinosaur finding.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they have all the bones.

Prabhupāda: No, they are describing maybe another animal. That is existing. That is Timiṅgila, they can swallow up big, big whale fishes. That big, bones, they are living still. Nothing is extinct. They are already there.

Rūpānuga: Did these dinosaurs exist, or is it just their imagination?

Prabhupāda: The big animal exists. I call it dinosaur or finosaur, that is your choice. Big animals existing. Timiṅgila, I said the name, Timiṅgila, still exist.

Rūpānuga: Still exist.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They are always existing. Water elephants. There are elephants in water. Everything.

Rūpānuga: So there is no such thing as extinction.

Prabhupāda: No extinction, there is no question of extinction.

Rūpānuga: If these animals were on this planet some millions of years ago, they are still here, is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Yes. What do you know what are there within the water? You can take information from the śāstras. It is not possible for you to see and go into the water, how big, big animals are there.

Hari-śauri: But it's possible that an animal may disappear from one planet, but still be on another planet, though, like that.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: Because they claim that even within recorded history...

Prabhupāda: They claim everything. That is... There is no question.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct) fossil, they are called fossil record.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. You can get a dead animal's body, but what is that?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They claim that many species are extinct.

Prabhupāda: How they are extinct?

Hari-śauri: Well, like, they say that within modern history,

Prabhupāda: First thing is they are all imperfect speculators. So what is the value of their sport? We don't take any value of it.

Rūpānuga: They don't know where these animals are, that's all.

Prabhupāda: They, simply like child, they are speculating. If he's imperfect, then what is the value of his speculation? There is no value.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But then what happens at the time of partial devastation? At the end of Manu, the partial devastation, what happens to the species?

Prabhupāda: Happens means these different ways become destroyed, but again, during creation, they come in.

Hari-śauri: The same species.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it also—I don't know if this is speculation or not—but is it, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it also not possible, say, at the time of creation, now those material bodies are going to be created, also possible not to manifest all of them but some are not still manifested?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are created. What is the wrong there?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are created, but not all of them. Not all the bodies...

Prabhupāda: Why? Why not? If some of them can be created, why not all of them? If some of them can be created, all of them can be created. Why do you say some of them can be created, not all of them?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, all of them can be created, but according to the karma-phala, or action of the individual, so there may be some time to...

Prabhupāda: Yes. The last devastation he died, but his karma-phala remained. So he has to appear in that form, begin his work.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in principle, at the time of creation, all forms must be created.

Prabhupāda: According to...

Rūpānuga: Because there is always someone to occupy some form.

Prabhupāda: Someone is ready already.

Rūpānuga: Waiting.

Prabhupāda: It is called suptotthita-nyāya. Suptotthito-nyāya. Just like you are sleeping, you forget everything. And as soon as you get up, immediately remember, "I have to do this." Immediately your duty is present. Immediately you understand "I have to go here, I have to do, I have to purchase..." But while sleeping, he forgot everything. It is like that. When devastation, everything is finished. Again creation, this suptotthita-nyāya, he's coming in this body, he's coming this body, so many. Unless he has got the particular body, how he can work? Unfinished.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (to devotees): What is that examples of that plants, trees appearance?

Sadāpūta: I was thinking like in Bhāgavatam, it says Cākṣuṣa-manvantara, Dakṣa recreated all the necessary living beings. So I was thinking it must have been that they were destroyed in a devastation and that he recreated them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sadāpūta: We were trying to see how we could explain these fossils that geologists speak of, and it seems like one way of looking at them.

Prabhupāda: But their calculating mind, in whatever you explain you have to give reference to the śāstra, and they will say it is, what is called? Myth, mythology. They'll refuse immediately that thing. But you have no other source to explain. And they will take it immediately, "It is all mythology."

Rūpānuga: (to Sadāpūta:) What about that chart you were working on comparing the ages, the Vedic ages and the scientists ages? Do you have that? Can we talk about that now? We should ask Śrīla Prabhupāda if there's any real parallel there. One thing we were thinking, the way they talk about time in past ages, Sadāpūta put the Vedic ages side by side with their idea and saw some comparison there, it looks like there may be some...

Prabhupāda: That is the... They will take our idea as mythology, and we shall take their idea as most imperfect.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, we can argue on scientific...

Prabhupāda: This is the position. Now you try to argue, but they will take everything we propose as mythology, and we will take, "Because you are rascal, whatever you say, it is all rascaldom," that's all. This is the position. "You are imperfect, rascals. So whatever you say it is all rascaldom." That is our position. And as soon as we say from śāstra, they will say it is all mythology. Then how you'll meet? This is the difference.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now we can argue that mythology is not so serious. I think we can argue on very sound logic, pointing out that their measurement of the ages are also based not on very scientific background, but there are many mistakes, and in fact there are several reports that... (end)