701211 - Conversation - Indore
Haṁsadūta: The following speech was recorded by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Gosvāmī Mahārāja at the Lal Bhag Palace before Their Highnesses Mahārāja Tukoji Rao Halokar, Mahārāṇī Sarmistha Bhai Halokar, on December 11, 1970 at five p.m. in Indore, Madhya Pradesh, India.
Prabhupāda: These are not legends. They are fact. Those who are not intelligent, they take it as legend. There are so many descriptions which is not within our experience—we take it as legend. Now, I gave some gentleman the example that the coconut tree, on the tree there are coconut and there are one-kilo water. Now, how the water is transported there? Where is the pipe? Where is the pumping? Because you have got experience if you want to get water high, you have to pump and you must have pipe. So where is the pipe and where is the pumping machine?
Indian man (1): In the tree.
Prabhupāda: So as you see, actually it is packed up nice, two pounds of water, very nice... And so nicely packed. How it has happened? What is the explanation of the scientists? According to their calculation, there must be pipe. There must be pumping. Somebody must be pumping. Where are all these? Then is it legend? It is fact. Now you explain how it is happening. If you are scientist, you explain how it is happening. Or you do that. Simply observation will not do. You must make experiment. You make a log standing like that, keep anything, and the, it, water must go.
Indian man (1): Keep the water there...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (1): And distill it.
Prabhupāda: Distill it. (laughter) Then your science will be all right. And where is that, your...? Then what is the value of your science? If you cannot explain which is within your experience and you set aside, "Oh, it is all legend," it is all foolishness. You have no knowledge about that. You admit that. How it is done, you cannot do it, or you have not attained to that standard of knowledge. You say that. Don't say it is legend. That is foolishness. You admit your weakness. If you are as equal, equal in intelligence, then explain how this water is being...
Indian man (1): I had one discussion. So I was given to understand that the pressure in the earth sends.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You do it practically. Show. (laughter) No explanation will do.
Indian man (1): Only when a living thing goes into the earth, just like trees, then, only then, that thing can happen.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a living thing like that?
Indian man (1): The thing was made... That is nature.
Prabhupāda: Then the nature is more intelligent than you. So then there are many intelligent works of nature. You do not know.
Indian man (1): What is in the stars(?) is also nature.
Prabhupāda: So you have no full knowledge of nature. That's it. Then you cannot claim that you are perfect, your knowledge is perfect.
Indian man (1): This example is very interesting, coconut tree.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. So many things. But there is explanation in the Vedas, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca CC Madhya 13.65, purport . The energy of Kṛṣṇa is working so wonderfully that it appears that exactly it is done by expert person. Now, take a flower, this flower. How nicely it is painted.
Indian man (1): Comes out of a green thing, red.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see. And how perfectly it is made, coloring. The most beautiful. Nobody can suggest that further coloring this way would have been better. No. This is parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī. Automatically it is done. Automatically.
Indian man (1): And seasonal.
Prabhupāda: Seasonal.
Indian man (1): In one season the same thing will be done all the places.
Prabhupāda: All the place. In the season in millions of trees, immediately the same flower is coming out.
Indian man (1): What will bloom in summer...
Prabhupāda: So many things, there is no explanation. They cannot simply say... Bogus humbug things they can present, but there is no clear explanation. Even in our body. Now, these hairs are coming out, and what is the explanation of these rascals? These hairs are coming. You're cutting, and coming. Your energy. You do not know your energy, even, what is that energy by which the hair is coming. It is from your body. That means it is your energy. The energy is within you. You do not know how many hairs are there, although it is put in by your...
Indian man (1): Thousands, thousands of... (laughter)
Prabhupāda: This is... Abodha-jāta. Therefore a living entity is called abodha-jāta, "born ignorant, born rascal, born foolish." Abodha-jāta.
Indian man (1): Abodha-jāta.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Abodha means no knowledge, and jāta means born. By birth he is fool, and he is claiming, "I am God." By birth he's a fool, and he's claiming, "I am God." Just see. This is illusion. This is the māyā. He cannot... He does not know how the hairs are growing, and he is God. Just see. "I am God." This has become a fashion, dangerous fashion. And these Māyāvādī philosophers, daridra-nārāyaṇa, this Nārāyaṇa, that Nārāyaṇa... Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he's Nārāyaṇa. Because you are within your coat, therefore you are coat. This is their argument. Because I am in the room, I am room. Is that very sound argument? Because Nārāyaṇa is there, therefore he is Nārāyaṇa. Aiye.
Mahārāja. (Hindi) Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] ...gopeśa gopikā-kānta rādhā-kānta namo 'stu te. Your Highness, Her Highness, and Ladies and Gentlemen, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has a very intimate relationship with the kṣatriya family. Lord Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam BG 4.1 . Long, long years ago He was speaking in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra that about many, many thousands of millions of years ago He spoke the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to Vivasvān, the predominating deity of the sun globe. And from Vivasvān the sūrya-vaṁśa kṣatriyas are coming. From Vivasvān, Vaivasvata Manu, because Manu is the son of Vivasvān the sun-god. And from Manu, Mahārāja Ikṣvāku descended, and he is the original king in the Raghu-vaṁśa dynasty, wherein Lord Rāmacandra took His birth. Similarly, in the Candra-vaṁśa Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared. So from historical reference we see that when the Supreme Personality of Godhead appears on this earth, in this universe, He takes pleasure to appear in some kṣatriya family. And both Rāmacandra and Bhagavān Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared in kṣatriya families, and they acted as kṣatriya. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham BG 4.1 . Kṣatriya king has got two functions. One function is to give protection and happiness to the good citizens, and another function is to kill the demons or the disturbing elements in the society. Lord Kṛṣṇa, the original form of Viṣṇu... Viṣṇu has got four hands. In two hands He has got the symbol of conchshell and lotus flower, and the other two hands He carries club and the cakra, sudarśana-cakra. So He wanted that a kṣatriya king like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira should rule over the world. That is the practically basic idea of the whole Mahābhārata and Bhagavad-gītā. So we are very much concerned to preach the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is without any malinterpretation. We cannot interpret on the words of God because religion means the words of God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam BG 4.1 . The principles of religion cannot be made by any human being as much as law cannot be made by the citizens. Law is made by the government. That law is accepted. That is obligatory. Similarly, religion means the words of God. Man-made religion has no value. The Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra: BG 4.1 "Such cheating process or pseudo religion process is completely eradicated from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. " Religion means obedience to the Supreme Lord. And the ruler and the king or the chief of the government is also accepted as representative of Nārāyaṇa.
There is a very nice incidence in this connection. Sanātana Gosvāmī, he was the prime minister of Nawab Hussain Shah, the then governor of Bengal, Pathan government. So when Sanātana Gosvāmī met Lord Caitanya, he decided to resign the government responsible post and take to this preaching of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Nawab, his most confidential representative was Hussain Shah. He was known as Sākara Mallika. Formerly the brāhmaṇa community was very strict. Because Sanātana Gosvāmī, although he was born in a Sarasvata brāhmaṇa family, he accepted the service of a Muhammadan king, he was rejected from the brāhmaṇa society, so practically he became Muhammadan. His name was Sākara Mallika, name was also changed. But this Sākara Mallika later on decided that he would propagate the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement started by Lord Caitanya. So when he wanted to resign, the Nawab was very much sorry, because he was right-hand man. He frankly said that "I am engaged with sporting and so many other proclivities, and you are my only representative to rule over the country. If you resign, then I shall be in great danger. I cannot accept your resignation." Then he said, "Your majesty, I am sorry. I cannot proceed any more. I shall retire from the service." Then Nawab said that "Then I shall punish you. I shall immediately arrest you. I cannot let you go." The answer of Sanātana Gosvāmī was that "You are king, representative of Nārāyaṇa, so whatever punishment you give, I shall accept." So that was the Hindu culture, that in spite of being punished by the king, he accepts the king as the representative of Nārāyaṇa. And actually, the Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He is the proprietor of everything. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram BG 5.29 . He is the proprietor of... Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam BG 5.29 . Therefore, to govern a planet there is representative of Kṛṣṇa. In the heavenly planets there is Indra. In the sun planet there is Vivasvān. In the Brahmaloka there is Lord Brahmā. Similarly, there are different planets and different representative of Kṛṣṇa.
So the Vedic civilization accepts the king or the ruler as representative of God, and he is given the... Not only in India. In other countries also, so far we know, in England also the royal family, the king and the queen is given respect as good as to the God. In every country, in Japan also. That was the system all over the world, the relationship between the citizen and the king. Gradually, with the progress of the Kali-yuga, Mahārāja Parīkṣit was the last kṣatriya king to give protection all over the world. And when he was cursed by a brāhmaṇa boy, his father regretted that "My dear boy, you have brought a scar amongst the brāhmaṇa society by cursing a king like Mahārāja Parīkṣit." So Mahārāja Parīkṣit was protected by Kṛṣṇa. He could counteract it, but still, he tolerated that punishment or the curse given by a brāhmaṇa boy. He immediately resigned from his royal throne, handing over the charge to his son. And he retired on the bank of the Ganges although he had only seven days' time to live. And during those seven days the whole Bhāgavata was recited. So, I mean to say, the royal family has got very intimate relationship with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And as soon as that was broken, because sometimes it breaks, the religious process declined and the royal power also declined. That is the whole history of the world.
Now, at the present moment we have started this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement from the Western world so that people may become again happy and come to their original consciousness. And that is being accepted by the Western world. I have got within four years forty-two branches all over the world. In America especially, practically in every principal city I have got a branch. Especially in Los Angeles, and New York we have got the biggest temple. And in England also, London, we have got our temple, 7 Bury Place. When your Highnesses may visit London or New York or Los Angeles—most probably you visit London occasionally—I invite you to our temple at 7 Bury Place near the British Museum. It is very prominent place. And this girl in front of you, Śrīmatī Yamunā devī, she and her husband Gurudāsa is in charge of the temple. But because I have come to India, they are assisting me. She has seen the Prime Minister also, Indira Gandhi. She is very much impressed with the saṅkīrtana movement. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and patronization by the royal family is very old relationship. So I came especially in Indore to see your holinesses..., er, highnesses, that if you give us some shelter we can immediately open a branch of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. I have brought with me forty American, European, Canadian students, and they will be exemplary teachers. You can see from their faces how they are advanced in spiritual consciousness, how they have accepted these principles of Vaiṣṇavism. They are no longer meat-eaters. They don't touch meat, egg, or fish, nothing of the sort. They have given up drinking habit or any kind of intoxications. They do not accept even tea, coffee and cigarette, and they do not take part in gambling, neither they have any illicit sex life. And they are observing ekādaśī days and other Vaiṣṇava festivals like Janmāṣṭamī, Śrī Rāma-navamī, and every temple, they are following the same principles. And gradually we are increasing the number. The Western boys and girls, my students, are all between twenty and thirty years old. You will find none of them more than twenty-five, twenty-six years old. So they are... In Japan also... Here is a Japanese boy also. So the world is taking very serious situation. All over the world they are appreciating. Your Highnesses will be pleased to see how many books we have published. Perhaps you have seen one of them, Kṛṣṇa. That is published in two parts. We have got our magazine, Back to Godhead, in five languages: English, French, German, and Japanese, Hindi, and Bengali. Of course Bengali is going to be out. Hindi is already out. So we are doing these activities, and we have a mind that we may open a center in a nice city like Indore under your patronization. Although I know that at the present moment the time is different, still, if you like, you can help us in so many ways. In our Indian parable it is said that "A dead elephant is also one lakh of rupees." Elephant, living or dead, still, it is valuable. Mara hati laksa (?).
So this movement, from very old days, beginning from that sun-god, and again five thousand years ago between Lord Kṛṣṇa and the Pāṇḍavas, the pious kings. So this movement has got very intimate relationship with the kṣatriya kings. So I would request Your Highness... Both, you are sitting. If you kindly give us a little place here in Indore, we can immediately start a nice center. And this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is essential. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that,
yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
mano-rathena asato dhāvato bahiḥ
That "If anyone has got devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he develops all the good qualities." Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī. Because he was a devotee, he did not distinguish the king, whether he was Muhammadan or Hindu. He immediately accepted that "You are representative of Kṛṣṇa." That is the version. Arjuna, because he was a devotee, although he was in the battlefield, he was insulted, his wife was insulted, his kingdom was usurped, still, he said, "Better not to fight and kill my kinsmen." That goodness was not found on the other side, Duryodhana. Because Arjuna was a devotee, he was compassionate with his brothers, not to kill them. But Kṛṣṇa wanted that this fighting must go on because He wanted to install Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, the pious king, on the throne. So therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and the support of the royal family is very old relationship. And at the present moment people need this Kṛṣṇa consciousness very badly. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness the whole world is going to hell. And you can practically see how they are changing, how this movement is changing character and mentality of the population. So I have come here. I wish that both of you will be kindly enough to patronize this movement to your best capacity.
Thanking you, Your Highnesses. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break]
Vande rūpa-sanātanau-raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. This movement is pleasing both to the dhīra and adhīra. There are two classes of men. Dhīra means those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and adhīra means those who are advancing in the process of sense gratification. So these two classes of men... Dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we can please both classes of men, the dhīras and the adhīras. Anyone we invite. I have spread this movement not restricting them, that "You can enter in my class after being qualified." No. Whatever you are, come. Dhīrādhīra. You come, chant, have musical instruments, plays, enjoy, dance, take prasādam and go home. And if you like, you read literatures, if you are intelligent. So everything was given to them. And they are American boys and girls. They are intelligent, qualified. So they are coming.
Yamunā: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am trying to send this girl to Russia, Moscow, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Yamunā: But I think it is very dangerous.
Prabhupāda: Not... I don't... We got a invitation from Czechoslovakia. That is also Communist country, but there the people invited us to open a center.
Yamunā: The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra was number one in Czechoslovakia. We have one record. I just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa over and over, the mahā-mantra, and in that country it was the most popular of all records.
Prabhupāda: In Germany also. We sold fifty thousand records in Germany. And there is another record, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi ** . That is also selling very nicely. And recently another record you produced? What is that?
Yamunā: Yes, that will be a long-playing record, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's name is Bhaja Hūre Mana, Mana Hū Re.
Prabhupāda: Ah, bhaja hūre mana, śrī nanda-nandana, abhaya-caraṇāravinda re.
Yamunā: And saṁsāra prayers, vande 'ham prayers.
Prabhupāda: So that is not yet out?
Yamunā: Well, from what I understood, Mr. Harrison wants to get it out before Christmas, but I have not heard from Śyāmasundara what has developed.
Prabhupāda: There is one boy, George Harrison. Perhaps you know his name. He is one of the Beatles.
Indian man (2): Harrison, yes.
Prabhupāda: Harrison, yes. He paid me nineteen thousand dollars for my publication work, and he is a very good boy. And he is helping in pushing on our record. He is very popular.
Indian man (2): Very popular.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And he has got to sing with him. Yes. [break] ...in London I was guest in one of the Beatles' palace. They have got each one a big, big palace. So we shall all take leave, Mahārāja. Thank you. [break]
Yamunā: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: She likes our movement.
Yamunā: Well, she had to.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) And she has seen that house also.
Yamunā: She knows that we're something
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: Eight to nine we have engagement.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Haṁsadūta: Tonight we have another engagement, eight to nine.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. So give me cold water. She is countrywoman. She is also American.
Yamunā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom she is coming? Where father's, father's house, this?
Yamunā: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That's all right. So Muktānanda, how are you feeling? You are feeling all right?
Muktānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So give him kunti. Purchase kunti from the market. ( japa ) If that kind of mṛdaṅga can be purchased, you find out. That's very nice.
Revatīnandana: They have to be brought from Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: No, the mṛdaṅga which you played.
Revatīnandana: Yes, I know.
Prabhupāda: They're from Calcutta?
Revatīnandana: That's what it says.
Haṁsadūta: It's a very nice drum.
Prabhupāda: Calcutta, there are many good manufacturers of musical instruments. Bengal is famous for music and hair.
Girl: And hair.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: Hair?
Prabhupāda: There is oil in (?). Bengali women, they have got hair like this. My sister had so bunch. (laughter) Black hair, and very long. So Bengal is famous for hair and music.
Devotee: Swamijī... (?)
Prabhupāda: Ah, no. This is for distribution of prasāda here. [break] ...hungry, hungry man. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness man, never he is hungry. If you are hungry, come, enjoy. We are never hungry. We are overfed.
Yamunā: Yes. It's a fact.
Prabhupāda: We have to fast practically by feeding others. (laughter) You are after food; we are rejecting food. Is it not?
Haṁsadūta: Yes. We're having trouble avoiding it.
Revatīnandana: We're trying to reject it.
Haṁsadūta: I think all of us had thought when you called us to India, "Now we will have to starve." So we came, and there is so much to eat.
Revatīnandana: When we left New York City, the last Sunday, Ṛṣi-kumāra cooked a tremendous feast. So we ate until we couldn't move, 'cause we thought it was our last feast. We thought there'd never be any more prasādam. (laughter) Now we have to...
Prabhupāda: There was a famine in India in 1942, big famine. I particularly inquired among the disciples of my Guru Mahārāja, and even the remote village, they said that "We have no difficulty." No. And another, there was a havoc, earthquake, in Bihar sometime in 1933 or that... And one of our Godbrother, Mr. Munshi Chatterjee, when he heard that quarter is completely demolished, so he was in the office. He was thinking, "What shall I do by going home? There is no more home. Everything is..." Then he said, "Let me go and see." And when he came there, only his house was left. Only his house. All house dismantled. The only. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati BG 9.31 . That we have seen in many instances. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta is never vanquished.
Devotee: Yes. We were thinking that he was getting special protection from the Lord.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. So be sincere, do your duty. You will never be in trouble. Never.
Himāvatī: All the members of this family are attracted to you, Prabhupāda. They are becoming more and more attracted every day.
Prabhupāda: But some of them are very envious that I went there with forty rupees, and I got so many boys and girls, children, they become envious. Profitable. They began to say, "Oh, it is profitable business." Is it not? So I said, "All right, I leave your country." If the Kṛṣṇa is there, I can make profit anywhere. All right. So you have to wait?
Haṁsadūta: They should come any minute.
Prabhupāda: So all our men are ready?
Haṁsadūta: We're all ready.
Prabhupāda: Four, six, eight, nine. Gopāla is sick? Just see how he is.
Devotee: He has a strong fever today.
Prabhupāda: Oh, then taking rest completely. Come on. Where the box are?
Haṁsadūta: I haven't prepared it.
Prabhupāda: You should prepare.
Haṁsadūta: They have to be at least three or four...
Himāvatī: Reinforce the handle so it's stronger.
Prabhupāda: You do one thing. Have you got rope?
Himāvatī: Rope? Yes.
Prabhupāda: Bring it. And do...
Haṁsadūta: Bring it?
Prabhupāda: Yes, rope.
Haṁsadūta: You mean put a... Yes, I'll be able to that.
Prabhupāda: This palace is nice.
Himāvatī: Yes. Run down, though. I noticed that the upholstery was torn.
Prabhupāda: It is very old.
Haṁsadūta: That knife, Prabhupāda? You have that knife?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can give to anyone in this way. Aiye... (Hindi) (end)