740329 - Morning Walk - Bombay
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Indian man (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: No, no. You don't find any dictionary. It is not old.
Indian man (1): It is like daridra-nārāyaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Like daridra-nārāyaṇa, yes. You are very intelligent. (laughs) It is another manufacturing, daridra. Janārdana... Janatai is not Janārdana. We say jaysam pakṣe janārdana. Jaysam pakṣe janārdana. (?) "All glories to the party who side Janārdana is there." Jaysam pakṣe janārdana. (?)
Devotee: Pakṣe, pakṣe janārdana.
Prabhupāda: Pāṇḍu-putrāṇāṁ jaysam pakṣe janārdana. Pāṇḍu-putra, the Pāṇḍavas, are glorified because on their side, Kṛṣṇa is there. Therefore, victory for them. One very big doctor of Allahabad, my old friend, Dr. G. Bose, he is also D.T.M., M.A.B. He wants to join this movement.
Dr. Patel: Haribol. There is one doctor, he'll look to the health and hygiene of the inmates.
Prabhupāda: Why not yourself?
Dr. Patel: ...on that point I'm going to (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: These rascals, asuras, they do not know what is the goal of life. But in which way we should direct? These rascals, they do not know. Still, they become public leaders, asuras. Na viduḥ. How to dissuade people to stop this? Just like we are doing: no illicit sex. Nivṛtti. Nivṛtti. No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. This is nivṛtti. And pravṛtti, take to Kṛṣṇa. This is pravṛtti, nivṛtti. But the rascal demons, leaders, they do not know these things. Pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ ca na viduḥ asura-jana BG 16.7 . They do not know it. Still, they become leaders. They do not know in which way people should be directed, and still they claim to be public leaders.
Indian man: Na ācāro na satyaṁ te śuddha vidyate.
Prabhupāda: Na ācāraḥ. Personally they also do not do anything, ah? They're addict, they addict to drinking, addict to prostitution, and they, by votes, they become leaders. So how people will be happy? Asura-jana. They live by asura-jana. This is the whole chapter of Bhagavad-gītā. They, they are making their plan. What is their plan-making? Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye manoratham. This is the only plan. "Now I have got this bank balance, and tomorrow further increase, and tomorrow increase." Increase, increase, his life decreased, and kicked out of this...
Indian man (2): That plan becomes out of date next year.
Prabhupāda: Ah? (laughs) Yes. That "He's my enemy, he's my friend. I'll kill so many enemies. Now one enemy is still there... Who is richer than me? Who is wiser than me?" These are the plans of the asura-jana.
Indian man (3): (Sanskrit) Sadṛśo māyā.
Prabhupāda: Sadṛśo mayā. Yes. "I'll protect my money in this way. I shall keep money in this way so that my sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons will enjoy. And I am going to become a cat and dog, doesn't matter. (everyone laughs) My grandson will enjoy." These are the plans. Where this rascal is going, he has no information. He has no information where he is going, but he is making provisions for his great-grandson. He does not know who is coming to be his great-grandson. This is asura program. You ask these asuras that "If you do not believe in the next life, then why you are working so hard?" They reply, "For the next generation." Next generation. And if you do not believe in the next life, what is the meaning of next generation? They say like that. This is the asuric civilization. (Sanskrit) So...
Indian man (2): Āsurīm...
Prabhupāda: Punar janmani. They'll never be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān mate. They'll never be able to understand. And remain in darkness, and transmigrate from one body to another, and this business will go on.
Indian man (2): But then how will they come up?
Prabhupāda: When they tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā BG 4.34 . When they come to the stage to understand things by surrendering. But they will never surrender. That is their business. Ah?
Indian man (4): But the Lord uses a heavy stick, then they'll surrender.
Prabhupāda: They are surrendered. They are being kicked by māyā at every moment, but because they are fools, they say "I'm not surrendered." This is... In Bengali is called vihvala. Vihvala.(?) No, no... Shameless. He's being kicked every moment, but he's so shameless, that he's declared, "I'm independent, I'm independent." Shameless. (Bengali)
Indian man (3): Just like these dogs around us...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This is the position of the asuras. This is the characteristic of the asura. They are under stringent laws of nature, being kicked every moment, and still is declaring, "There is no God, I'm independent. I'm independent." Every moment he's dying, and still he thinks, "I shall live forever." This is asura. Pravṛttiṁ ca, nivṛttiṁ ca BG 16.7 . So this is required. Pravṛtti and nivṛtti, to know.
Indian man (4): What is pravṛtti?
Prabhupāda: Pravṛtti means inclination for doing something. That is called pravṛtti.
Indian man (4): Nivṛtti means...?
Prabhupāda: Nivṛtti means to stop. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalām.
Indian man (4): Nivṛtti...?
Prabhupāda: Nivṛttis tu mahā-phalām. Here, at the present moment... Not at the present moment, always in the material world, the desire is that "I shall become the greatest enjoyer. I shall become king, I shall become minister... And at last I shall become God." (laughter) You see? So this the false pravṛtti. And one who can cut down this rascal propensity, he's successful. But I'm neither king, neither a minister, neither I'm going to become God. I'm a tiny living entity, being kicked by the māyā, like football. When he comes to this understanding, he is in knowledge.
Indian man (4): (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: Yes. But he is so shameless than in spite of being kicked like that, always, he's thinking, "I'm God, I'm independent, I can do anything," like that. This is asura. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. Ah?
Indian man: Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ.
Prabhupāda:
na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
prapadyante narādhamāḥ
māyayāpahṛta-jñānā
āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
BG 7.15
Because they've taken to this asuric principle, they do not surrender. This is the disease, material disease. Here is Kṛṣṇa, the perfect leader, and they're going this side, that leader, that leader, that leader. Why? The perfect leader is there, His instruction is there, in all fields of life, any field of life. And ultimately spiritual realization. But they will not take it. They'll not take. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] Where is your book? You can read.
Indian man (3): Oh, he forgot, and I brought another book. I brought that Siksha-vadri.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Indian man (3): There is the name of Kṛṣṇa in every page. I told you the other day. It's a quota paṇḍita for all Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: Read something.
Indian man (3): I'll read the beginning, and then from the middle. (reads ślokas ) That is the beginning, and how it goes, then...
Prabhupāda: So why did that person say that Janardan Swami Narayan is the topmost?
Indian man (2): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: No, that Buddhism. That is not Vaiṣṇavism.
Indian man (2): (indistinct) stop them, what he said, (Sanskrit).
Prabhupāda: That is Buddhism.
Indian man (2): But he's not Buddhist, he's Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: But he's taking the Buddhist philosophy.
Indian man (2): He's not taking the Buddhist philosophy. In what way he has?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, because in the śāstra, in the Vedas, it is stated that, sometimes it is recommended animal sacrifice.
Indian man (2): He did not want to...
Prabhupāda: No, no, he says, even if he stated...
Indian man (2): Should not take it.
Prabhupāda: No, that means he's denying the authority of Vedas.
Indian man (2): He's denying the authority of Vaiṣṇava...
Prabhupāda: No, no, Vaiṣṇava does not say...
Indian man (2): He denied the authority of Buddhist, and not Vedas, see what he says...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, you read it.
Indian man (2): Na vaksyam sarva-tamasaṁ yajña-śiṣṭam abhipacchet.(?)
Prabhupāda: Ah! Even it is yajña-śiṣṭam...
Indian man (2): Then also you should not eat.
Prabhupāda: No.
Indian man (2): You should not eat.
Prabhupāda: No!
Indian man (2): That is what it says.
Prabhupāda: That is means denying the authority of Vedas. Vedas say you can eat meat after yajña.
Indian man (2): But he says no, you should not eat.
Prabhupāda: But therefore he's denying the authority of Vedas.
Indian man (2): You should, you should not eat meat even Veda says.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore he's denying.
Indian man (2): Yes, but doesn't matter. I don't want to eat meat even the way... Even if you sacrifice a goat here and offer...
Prabhupāda: You cannot...
Indian man (2): Na caiva...
Prabhupāda: ...deny the authority of Vedas.
Indian man (3): Vedas...
Prabhupāda: You may not eat, that is a different thing. But the Vedic authority... Just like, suppose the law says, "This man should be hanged." If you say, "No, even if he is criminal, he should not be hanged," that means denying the authority of law. You cannot say this.
Indian man (4): That's right. All right.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (2): So you must eat their meat if it is...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no... You should not eat.
Indian man (2): That is what he says...
Prabhupāda: That's... You see? He does not know what is the scheme of Vedas . You cannot stop meat-eating all of a sudden. But you can raise some restriction. These rascals who are meat-eaters, if you say, "Don't eat meat," he'll never do that. Therefore, "Yes, you can eat meat, just after offering to the goddess Kālī," and in this way, that means, once in the month, that means restricted. Restricted. So, Vedas means they're taking gradually, not that, like a foolish, "You don't do this." You cannot do that. That is Vedic authority. The Vedas are meant for everyone. Those who are meat-eaters, you cannot stop them all of a sudden. Similarly, drunkards. You cannot stop them, drunkards, "Don't drink." They'll not hear you. Therefore restriction. "Yes, you can drink, after offering to the devī, " and that means restriction. So what is the meaning of marriage? Because sex like the cats and dogs, stop it. Just get married. In this way, otherwise, you may say "No marriage." Just like, the other day these sannyāsīs come, because saw woman was sitting, they'll not enter. But I saw their teeth was so unclean, and the dress was never washed. But they have got this restriction, no seeing of woman.
Indian man (3): (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: You cannot deny the authority of Vedas. Suppose you are following ahiṁsā, you cannot say that "State should not anymore hang anybody." That you cannot say. You follow.
Indian man (3): Shall I read it?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): Vabhicaro na kartavyaḥ pumvi stri...(?)
Prabhupāda: Now, my point is that Buddhism was rejected from India because he's decried the authority of Vedas.
Indian man (3): So this fellow also will be rejected.
Prabhupāda: That... Yes, immediately. Because he does not accept the authority of Vedas. That is real knowledge. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam Yes, yajña, I mean to say, criticize the yajña-vidhi. Yajña-vidhi y ou cannot criticize. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ BG 3.9 . Karma-bandhana. So yajña must go on, and the vidhi must be followed. That is real acceptance of Vedic knowledge. If you manufacture your own concoction, "This is good, this is bad," that will not help you.
Indian man (3): Vetas pi pavitranam svadhinam ca tasam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindha saddhya...(?)
Prabhupāda: But why he's making nindā? You don't eat, even it is... Now in the first you said, you don't..., you cannot kill animal, even if it is...
Indian man (3): I, I follow even though you said that you kill it for the sake of yajña, I am not going to kill it, that's all. That is my personal...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That you can do. But you cannot decry the Vedic laws.
Indian man (2): This is not decrying the Vedic law...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes... You said, api, even if it is enjoined in the Vedas...
Indian man (2): I don't think so.
Prabhupāda: Why not? It is clear, it is clear. You don't think, but the writing is there.
Indian man (3): The writing...
Prabhupāda: Writing is there.
Indian man (3): The writing can be interpreted in a lot of ways.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no! You can interpret. No, no, no, no. We are not interpreting.
Indian man (3): We are not going to take that way.
Prabhupāda: We cannot... As soon as you say api, even if it is enjoined in the Vedas, don't do it. That means decrying the Vedas . What do you think?
Indian man (2): You want us to eat meat by saying that the Vaiṣṇavas..., we won't do it.
Prabhupāda: The Vaiṣṇava is forbidden.
Indian man (2): But then, this is a Vaiṣṇava way, forbidden to eat the meat.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But therefore you cannot decry the Vedas.
Indian man (4): But this is not Veda, you see? If you kill an animal and sacrifice in the way of...
Prabhupāda: That is Vedic injunction. Sacrifice is done...
Indian man (4): This is tantra, not Veda. Vedas don't want. And there used to be animal living again after killing it...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man (4): Are you able to do it?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man (4): So this is tantra. He wants to decry the tantra, not Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Indian man (4): By tantra they're verily killing animals to eat them away for the pleasure of their teeth, for the pleasure of the tongue.
Prabhupāda: Tantra, tantra... I do not know what kind of tantra...
Dr. Patel: ...does not believe in killing animal and eating it even... Vedas say you can eat, I will not. And I don't mind decrying the Vedas that way, if you say so, sir. (indistinct) Vaiṣṇava, I don't think I can allow anyone to be killed. I'm very sorry to say this.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Dr. Patel: If the Vedas say "Kill," I won't. I won't, don't want that.
Prabhupāda: That is Buddhism.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind you call me a Buddhist or a fool, but I won't kill an animal, being a Vaiṣṇava myself.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the thing is that you may not like something, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas .
Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the authority of Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ...excuse me, I will bring the Vedas before you. I have studied.
Prabhupāda: You can manufacture your own way...
Dr. Patel: I'm not manufacturing, I'm not manufacturing. Nowhere Veda say you kill the animals, and eat them away. They, our forefathers were so clever as to kill them and bring them living again.
Prabhupāda: Every sacrifice, every sacrifice there is written in injunction of Vedic...
Dr. Patel: Sacrificing means you're sacrificing your own...
Prabhupāda: You may mean something, but actually, that is not the meaning. That is the difference. You may mean something. The point is that you may follow. In the Vedas there are different ways, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas. That is the point.
Dr. Patel: The ideal Vaiṣṇava will not say this. The ideal Vaiṣṇava. Even Vedas say to kill an animal anytime, I won't. I won't kill it, I won't eat it. I'll not eat even in England as a student of London University-meat.
Prabhupāda: I'm recommending you to eat meat?
Dr. Patel: No, you eat the..., indirectly so.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to talk with you. Therefore you cannot take any lesson.
Dr. Patel: No, I'm not taking this lesson, going to kill an animal to eat it. That lesson in no way I will take.
Prabhupāda: That is meant for others!
Dr. Patel: Ācchā! Not for me.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise, as a Vaiṣṇava you can't...
Prabhupāda: I don't say that Vaiṣṇava. Why I'll say? Why you talk like that?
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Swamiji told his disciples not to take meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Indian man (2): No.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) ...allow.
Indians: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Allowed for the rascals and fools.
Dr. Patel: Fools, but we are not rascals. So he...
Prabhupāda: You cannot reject the rascals and fools. That is the way.
Dr. Patel: But he is rejecting rascals and fools.
Prabhupāda: Gradually, gradually. Just like...
Dr. Patel: As a Vaiṣṇava we can't tolerate meat.
Prabhupāda: That is all right, but...
Dr. Patel: I can...
Prabhupāda: ...you cannot...
Dr. Patel: ...not mix it. They go, sometimes, and feed (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Even they go, that does not mean they're going to kill animal.
Dr. Patel: But suppose an animal is killed and prasāda is offered, they won't take it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, yes.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that is what it says, "Don't take this prasāda even if it is offered."
Prabhupāda: But I cannot say to stop animal sacrifice before the deity Goddess Kālī. That I cannot say. I cannot disobey. I may not take it.
Dr. Patel: That is what he means to say, but...
Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that I reject...
Dr. Patel: "My followers do not take meat even kālī-yajña. "
Prabhupāda: You cannot dictate on the Vedic authority. Veda...
Dr. Patel: Kālī temple, Kālī temple is not Vedic, but it is Tantric, Tantric.
Prabhupāda: That you say, that you say. Not tantra. Tantra is also within the Vedas. Just like we have got Nārada-pañcarātra.
Dr. Patel: That's right, but we are following Nārada-pañcarātra, aren't we?
Prabhupāda: Tantra.
Dr. Patel: All of us. All Vaiṣṇavas in India, Nārada-pañcarātra is very pivot around which we all live on.
Prabhupāda: We are not advocating meat eating. You do not understand. We are saying that even if you don't eat meat, you cannot decry the arrangement in the Vedas. That you cannot do.
Indian man (3): But this is not Vedic, eh...
Prabhupāda: This is Vedic!
Indian man (3): ...that you can...
Prabhupāda: In the yajña, not that all yajña. But in the... Some yajñas, there is recommendation. It is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ.
Dr. Patel: Yajña-śiṣṭa aśinaḥ. Not meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Aśinaḥ.
Indian man (3): ...mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ.
Prabhupāda: So this position is there. Those who are rascals and rogues will meat eat.
Dr. Patel: But we are not rascals and rogues.
Prabhupāda: No, no, those who will eat meat, to bring them gradually to the platform of perfection. That is allowed.
Dr. Patel: We are a Vaiṣṇava..., as Vaiṣṇavas we are not allowed to do this.
Prabhupāda: You cannot stop that. Suppose you..., there are so many nonviolence philosophies, Buddha, Jains, but have they been able to stop this meat-eating?
Dr. Patel: The Vaiṣṇavas, they are to only perform those yajñas called...
Prabhupāda: Yajñas for satisfaction of Viṣṇu.
Indian man (3): And that, that is also... Viṣṇu-yajña is there, there is no sacrifice of animals.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you do not know, there is.
Indian man (4): Yajña is not necessary at all.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (4): Yajña is only for getting, to gain certain aims.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavatam you'll find the dākṣa-yajña, dākṣa-yajña. Dākṣa-yajña. There was a goat, and that goat was cut and it was added to the head of Dakṣa Mahārāja.
Indian man (4): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is described in the Bhāgavatam.
Indian man (4): Yajñas are only done for certain aims actually, and are not required at all.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ SB 11.5.32 . That is our...
Indian man (4): The saṅkīrtana be our yajña.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] It is stated in the śāstra, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Kalau, in this age...
Indian man (3): Why discuss these things for others? We are not meat-eaters, nor we do... (laughs)
Prabhupāda: He's going in a different way.
Indian man (3): As a Vaiṣṇava. No, that is what I'm...
Prabhupāda: No, you do not understand, that is the defect...
Indian man (3): That is my misfortune, that is my misfortune because I am a little fixed-cult man. But then you explain me what I should behave.
Prabhupāda: Suppose you don't believe in meat-eating, can you stop?
Indian man (3): I don't want to stop. For your followers yes, you say don't eat meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): Like that he has told us, "Don't eat meat."
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Indian man (3): You don't want to eat, do yajña.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): So don't call it Buddhist.
Prabhupāda: But that doesn't... No, this is Buddhist philosophy; you do not know it.
Indian man (3): I'm not talking about Vaiṣṇava philosophy and Buddhist...
Prabhupāda: This is Buddhist philosophy. That even if the Buddha, Lord Buddha said, "Even if it is recommended in the Vedas, I don't accept Vedas. " That is Buddhist philosophy.
Indian man (4): He accepts Veda. He said the next moment. Now we read it, I've read it before you.
Prabhupāda: You'll see, it is stated, nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. Śruti-jātam is the Vedas. There is recommendation of sacrifice, but you have decried them.
Indian man (4): He has not decried them. Devatam, devata te ta vi pranam sadvinam ca satam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindā svadya na ca tapi. (?)
Prabhupāda: Hm. So this is nindā. If you say, "Even if it is recommended in the Vedas," that is nindā . If you say, "Even if it is recommended by the Vedas, " that means Vedas are mistaken. You are right. You do not know what is the purpose of Vedas.
Indian man (4): What is the purpose of Vedas?
Prabhupāda: The purpose is gradually to bring them...
Indian man (4): But he...
Prabhupāda: ...not that all of a sudden that you say "No, you cannot eat."
Indian man (4): He..., all of a sudden he talks about Vaiṣṇavas who are above all these low-class fellows. Vaiṣṇavas are much above all those meat-eaters, then who is instructing the Vaiṣṇavas?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavas should go to sacrifice. (Hindi)
Indian man (3): There is no... Hindu, aren't the Hindus...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You are mixing the Hindu, Muslim, and Vaiṣṇava...
Indian man (3): I don't think I am so fool like that, to mix up Hinduism with Buddhism. I think you have little be...
Prabhupāda: But you don't hear me, that is the difference.
Indian man (3): I'm hearing you perfectly well, but I'm very quick to grasp it, that is the misfortune of me.
Prabhupāda: You are quick to deviate, that is the point. You do not hear.
Indian man (3): How can you... (laughs) How can you say I'm in...
Prabhupāda: That is the... That is your alpa-medhasaḥ. You cannot understand. What I'm speaking you do not understand.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: He... That example I'm giving, that the law is that the murderer should be hanged. If you fight, "I don't care for this law, because you are hanging one person," that will be contempt of court. You may not like, but the law is there. You cannot condemn the law. That is my point. That is my point.
Indian man (4): My point is no meat-eating by Vaiṣṇavas.
Prabhupāda: You, you... You do not like that anyone should be condemned to death...
Dr. Patel: That, that's all right.
Prabhupāda: ...but for that reason you cannot condemn the law.
Indian man (3): But he's not condemning the law. He said, "Don't make the yajña ." He said, "Make the yajña but don't eat the meat." That is not condemning the law.
Prabhupāda: All right. [break] You cannot say the law is only for the Vaiṣṇava.
Dr. Patel: He does not say that don't... [break] Nonkilling and not...
Prabhupāda: You are mistaken there.
Dr. Patel: I'm not mistaken. I don't think I'm such a fool as that.
Prabhupāda: You're mistaken there, that this yajña is meant for other person, not for you.
Dr. Patel: That is why I say that we are not preventing them to do the yajña, but we are not...
Prabhupāda: You cannot surrender.
Dr. Patel: That is we are not asking them to break the law.
Prabhupāda: That is his preventing, that even it is recommended...
Dr. Patel: He's not preventing his followers not to eat meat. Isn't it? I think, I have not...
Indian man (3): Then it is all right. So I'm all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...to go and worship any other demigod. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ BG 7.20 . They are not going to worship. They can offer respect to the demigods, but that is not they're going to worship. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam.
Dr. Patel: Śaraṇaṁ vraja.
Prabhupāda: We are simply...
Dr. Patel: We say the same thing in our...
Prabhupāda: Mām ekam. Only Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: So āśrama varṇāśrama dharmo... Cārvāka says.
Prabhupāda: Somebody is bigger than Kṛṣṇa. Then what you'll do?
Dr. Patel: They're going, "All right, you can talk anything nonsense." It is nonsense, "You are a fool and a rascal, and a rogue and what you are calling so many words." He is that. And they believe him, that's all.
Prabhupāda: He yesterday talked like that.
Dr. Patel: Then... Then believe it!
Indian man (2): They say they're..., Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Swami Narayan.
Prabhupāda: Yeah, they talk like that.
Dr. Patel: No, I don't think, they are not, they are small boys.
Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be, they, representative of the Swami Narayan, they said.
Dr. Patel: They have not represented the real thing...
Prabhupāda: "Swami Narayan is more than Kṛṣṇa."
Dr. Patel: Tomorrow these boys say you are more than Kṛṣṇa, then...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, they came to talk with me, representing Swami Narayan.
Dr. Patel: I represent Swami Narayan. Let us talk.
Prabhupāda: It is difficult to do it. You say something, he says something...
Dr. Patel: He's wrong... What Swami Narayan has written is right or wrong. That is his own handwriting. His own writing. Kṛṣṇa... [break] That is the injunction. Those fools are right or I am right?
Prabhupāda: Avaiṣṇava muhur jnena puta harir gatam. (?)
Dr. Patel: Mm, that's it.
Prabhupāda: Śravaṇaṁ na kartavyam. (?)
Dr. Patel: Śravaṇam, same thing. Don't hear anything we...
Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava does not like to kill, but Kṛṣṇa Himself killed so many demons.
Indian man (3): But Kṛṣṇa has got the right to kill. (everyone laughs)
Prabhupāda: He induced Arjuna to kill, His devotee.
Indian man (2): He was the main killer in that..., on the background.
Prabhupāda: Do you think that killing is bad?
Indian man (2): No, no, no... Yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says is right, and whatever we say is wrong. We say kill the animal is wrong. Kṛṣṇa says kill the animal is right. Okay?
Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, I mean to say, do you mean to say killing an animal is bad, and killing a man is not bad?
Indian man (2): No, if Kṛṣṇa says, "Kill the man, kill this man," then it's right. If I say "Kill this man," is wrong.
Prabhupāda: I mean, Kṛṣṇa killed some animals, also.
Indian man (2): Then it is right. Whatever Kṛṣṇa does is right, because He has the power to create, I know.
Prabhupāda: That's right, that's all right.
Indian man (2): There is nothing that's killed. What is killed? Kill is body, ātmā is sanātana.
Prabhupāda: You abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (2): That is what we are abiding, but that is...
Prabhupāda: Not killing and not killing.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say.
Prabhupāda: These are material conceptions. If Kṛṣṇa says, "You kill," you should kill.
Dr. Patel: Shall I read this? Kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇāvatāra...
Prabhupāda: Śāstra can say...
Dr. Patel: Some nonsense śāstras are there, who can say...
Prabhupāda: But that is not śāstra. Why you are accepting that śāstra? (laughter) He's nonsense. If he accepts something nonsense śāstra, he becomes nonsense. Our plea is let us learn from the standard book, Bhagavad-gītā, and study, not bring anything else. That will give us proper guidance.
Dr. Patel: [break] ...that is completely verse.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I said that in the Vedas there are so many injunctions for different men, because the population, the sattva, rajo, tamo-guṇa, some of them are śūdras, some of them are kṣatriyas, some of them are vaiśyas, some of them are brāhmaṇa ; therefore different ways of inducing them is there. But because something is there for inducing the śūdras in the Vedas, you cannot say, "No, this is not required." That is also required, for the śūdras, not for you.
Indian man (4): No, but then he...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vedas means helping everyone. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedāḥ.
Indian man (3): It is the māyā.
Prabhupāda: By killing, yes. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Your aim should be to go above this qualities of material.
Indian man (4): That is what he wants.
Prabhupāda: But Vedas are describing... When Vedas are describing something for the benefit of the śūdras, because it is meant for the śūdras, you cannot condemn it.
Dr. Patel: But then you should not take part in it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right. My point is that something is meant for the śūdras.
Dr. Patel: No that's right, but he has not condemned the yajña, he has made the injunction that you must not take part...
Prabhupāda: That's right... Just like in a drug shop, there are... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. There are many kinds of drugs. So something is not meant for a certain patient. But he cannot say, "I don't like this drug."
Dr. Patel: Right. (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: That is also drug...
Dr. Patel: Right.
Prabhupāda: For certain persons, for a certain patient.
Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: But maybe it was being done by somebody.
Indian man (3): They must be... In those days... Those were the departurous(?) days when he was born.
Prabhupāda: This thing is being done, I know, in a big temple in Mathurā. When there is big crowd, they put off the electric, and the rascal goes within the woman. I know that. In Vārāṇasī also, in Viśvanātha Temple. They do like this.
Indian man (4): I know, I have seen. That is why this injunction... So now you are satisfied that these injunctions are right.
Prabhupāda: No, you... My point was that because something is not meant for me, and it is in the law...
Dr. Patel: We don't want to proscribe it, we want to... That is what he meant. My followers, Vaiṣṇavas, will not partake into such things. Let others do what they do.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it.
Dr. Patel: But then you became fiery.
Prabhupāda: No, we can preach... No, my point was that because it is not applicable to me, I shall condemn.
Dr. Patel: That you don't eat, that's not condemning. Let them go and do their own... [break].
Prabhupāda: In the lower status, so they require.
Dr. Patel: So, but you are also as weak as I am, both of us, so we... Ācchā. (laughs)
Indian man (3): They are wrong, but you are... We are reading what he has written.
Prabhupāda: "Swami Narayan is better than Kṛṣṇa."
Indian man (4): No, no, that is wrong. That is... You, tomorrow you will say, "He was fool" Suppose these boys tomorrow say...
Indian man (3): I'm representing also, he also represents, we both have... We are Vaiṣṇavas bhaktas.
Prabhupāda: He accepted that...(laughs)
Indian man (4): No, he's wrong, because he has not studied. I have studied.
Prabhupāda: Your representative yesterday told me something different.
Indian man (4): They are boys.
Prabhupāda: What they said?
Indian man (2): We are not perfect as disciple...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) This type of mūrti.
Indian man (2): (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. [break] ...the other day that this Swami Narayan, not Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (4): Because tomorrow we'll say Prabhupāda. That we are teaching, but he died very early. He died at the age of forty-eight years.
Prabhupāda: That means that his followers are not well-conversant.
Indian man (3): Those who are not following the (indistinct).
Indian man (4): But then he was actually living. What type of...
Devotee: In England also they are chanting "Swami Narayan," not about Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Indian man (3): No, they are also kṛṣṇa-bhaktas.
Devotee: How they are they chanting Swami Narayan's?
Indian man (3): They actually work for the Kṛṣṇa only, and they...
Prabhupāda: No, no, Kṛṣṇa recommends śāstra, harer nāma, harer nāma, harer nāmaiva kevalam CC Adi 17.21 . So why they should chant "Swami Narayan"?
Indian man (4): No, listen...
Devotee: He says to chant Kṛṣṇa. But they are chanting Swami Narayan.
Prabhupāda: You know, there was a big doctor in Calcutta, (indistinct) Sen. You have heard his name? He will die of thirstiness, still would not drink outside water. Would come home, offer to the Deity, and then drink. I know that (indistinct) Sen.
Indian man (3): But he is such a...
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām BG 9.14—Kṛṣṇa. But why one should chant the other name? Kṛṣṇa says satataṁ kīrtayanto mām BG 9.14. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not any other name.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: But their teacher, they're chanting "Swami Narayan." They're saying Swami Narayan is better than Kṛṣṇa. What kind of preaching is this?
Indian man (4): This is... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...nonsense this (Bengali). The people will go to the temple. If they say, if the preacher say that Swami Narayan name should be chanted...
Indian man (4): This is directly (indistinct) Swami Narayan.
Prabhupāda: "Swami Narayan is better than Kṛṣṇa," then what they learn?
Indian man: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: In London they have got a branch, and they're chanting....
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Swami Narayan. That is my objection. Why they are putting...
Indian man (2): "Swami Narayan, Swami Narayan, Swami Narayan." (laughs)
Prabhupāda: What is this thing? "Swami Narayan." Nārāyaṇa is there.
Indian man (4): Nārāyaṇa is there.
Indian man (2): Swami is their guru and Nārāyaṇa is God, so both, Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa, Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa, Prabhupāda Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: But that does not mean they should chant. Just like, we are not instructing our disciples to chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami..." No. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hari-tvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ. Guru is respected as good as Kṛṣṇa, but that does not mean I shall teach them to go and chant my name, "Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami, Bhaktivedanta Swami." What is this?
We are teaching, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Harer nāma, harer nāma... CC Adi 17.21.
Indian man (3): Prabhupāda so much...
Prabhupāda: Because he, my disciple respects me as God, that does not mean I'll think I have become God.
Indians: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Hold some meeting, and you are belonging to the, you asked them, "Why you say like this?"
Indian man (4): We are... here I represent them, and you represent...
Prabhupāda: No, they're preaching.
Indian man (4): Both are Vaiṣṇavas...
Prabhupāda: Just like these boys said.
Indian man (3): [break] ...all difference here, and they have got no difference at all.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man (3): I would not say that...
Prabhupāda: I can understand that. That is not difficult.
Indian man (3): Ah?
Prabhupāda: So only thing is that why they're preaching against their own principle?
Indian man (4): Eka vasinam tapasa tapa ya brataḥ... (?)
Prabhupāda: That is my point. That is my point. Everything is there for Kṛṣṇa, but they're chanting "Swami Narayan." Why?
Indian man (4): There are... In Swami Narayan's s ampradāya there are...
Indian man (3): (indistinct) ...you have to follow me." (Indians laugh)
Prabhupāda: So far we are concerned, Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas, there is no different conclusion. The conclusion is there. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam SB 1.3.28 .
Indian man (4): That is the right. If you...
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. They were saying they are sannyāsī, ...
Indian man (2): They say like that, but it is not...
Indian man (4): They were small boys, what will they know about it?
Prabhupāda: But why they are...
Indian man (3): The boys are taught like this from...
Indian man (4): Those days you must follow.
Prabhupāda: No, rāmānandī, rāmānandī(?)
Indian man (4): These are different.
Prabhupāda: They say that they follow... [break] ...impersonal.
Indian man (4): Now, he has given about how brāhmaṇas should do—all this.
Prabhupāda: Why you recommended Pañca-upāsana?
Indian man (4): I don't understand that.
Prabhupāda: That is the impersonalist.
Indian man (3): (indistinct) bhakti.
Indian man (4): I don't know... Why...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no...
Indian man (2): Pañcarātra...
Prabhupāda: Pañcopāsanam means that the Absolute Truth is impersonal. You can imagine as person like this. This is pañcopāsanam. Sādhu kanam hita taya brāhmaṇa rūpa kalpana, kalpana.(?) "You just imagine one form." But Vaiṣṇava, he's not like that. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1] . (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ.
Indian man (3): It says in the śāstra, Veda ca rasa...
Prabhupāda: When the question of śāstra comes, shall I read Bhagavad-gītā or this?
Indian man (4): All this things should be read together, because they are complimentary to each other. Everybody needs to...
Prabhupāda: We have no time to read the complimentary...
Indian man (4): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: ...then what he'll read?
Indian man (4): Tathā śrīmad-bhagavad-gītā iti.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible that everyone has to read all the corollaries. The one, main... Bhagavad-gītā you read and learn, that I am stressing. That I am stressing.
Indian man (2): That's right.
Indian man (3): Perfectly right, but what I say what he has... Finer points.
Prabhupāda: Now you say there are seven branches, and they're preaching in a different way. So how people will understand...?
Indian man (3): Because then those people were reading all so many śāstras he narrowed to five. He wanted the Veda you must read, Vyāsa-sūtra... [break]
Prabhupāda: Beginning should be Bhagavad-gītā. [break] Pañcopāsanam. Pañcopāsanam is not for the Vaiṣṇava.
Indian man (4): Not pañcopāsa, Pañcarātra.
Prabhupāda: No, no, Pañc... Pañcarātra is all right. He has recommended the...
Indian man (4): Gaṇapati (indistinct)
Prabhupāda (4): Gaṇapati... In the Bhagavad-gītā it is not recommended. Mām ekam.
Indian man: Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja.
Prabhupāda: So, why (indistinct).
Indian man (4): Don't say this kind of thing—"It is not recommended."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Indian man (4): Condemning and not recommending is a different thing. It is not condemned.
Prabhupāda: Avidhi-pūrvakam means condemned. You are doing...
Indian man (4): Sir, my point is this...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Avidhi-pūrvakam, means... Vidhi-pūrvakam is right. And avidhi-pūrvakam is wrong. The same example. That one has to supply food to the mouth, and if one thinks "There are so many holes, any hole will do," that is avidhi-pūrvakam. [break]...recommended that suppose Gaṇapati worship.
Indian man (4): He did not care much about...
Prabhupāda: No. Much or less, that doesn't... There is recommendation.
Indian man (3): Recommendation or not, bhakti like Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (4): You are not to do (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: What does that mean? Read it again.
Indians: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes, mām ekam.
Indian man (4): You have come to our narrow path now. When people divide (indistinct). Because those days were different. When people were (indistinct) on stones.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I cannot... A chaste woman, you cannot divide her. She must stick to one husband.
Indian man (4): No, in his time, people were Vaiṣṇavas...
Prabhupāda: You cannot, she cannot say, "I can accept as many husband as required." That is not good.
Indian man (4): Two hundred years before. Two hundred years before. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...as you worship Durgā, then you have to sacrifice goat.
Indian man (4): Ah?
Prabhupāda: As soon as you worship Durgā...
Indian man (4): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Whatever.
Indian man (4): Durgā, Śiva, Gaṇapati one family.
Prabhupāda: So as soon as you worship Durgā you have to follow the rules, you have to make goat sacrifice...
Indian man (4): No, no, no. (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavata it is recommended. In the Bhāgavata it is recommended, that when Kṛṣṇa is asking for Devī to go take birth in the womb of Yaśodā, Kṛṣṇa is inducing that He'll get so many sacrifices. Yes. So that is the (Sanskrit), animal sacrifice.
Indian man (4): Therefore (Sanskrit) ah? Vairāgyam neyem aprti śrī kṛṣṇa...(?) He is recommending the fools, the fools who have got no...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) advised to the fools, why the Vedas cannot?
Indian man (4): Vedas they have advised to the fools to (indistinct). But he has advised another fools not to eat it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you worship Devī, you have to sacrifice goat, then what you will do?
Indian man (4): No, no. (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: Where this... [break] ( kīrtana begins) (end)