730810 - Conversation B - Paris
Prabhupāda: ...there are many groups like that in America.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Like imitating Beatle groups.
Devotee: Allen Ginsberg.
Prabhupāda: Allen Ginsberg. Allen Ginsberg has no more popularity.
Devotee: No, not much.
Prabhupāda: He's roaming like vagabond. He came, London, to see me. That... He came, also. What is that? Bob...?
Yogeśvara: Bob Dylan?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: You mean in London, in London.
Prabhupāda: No. He came to Los Angeles.
Śrutakīrti: He was at different temples in the United States, he was travelling by car.
Devotee: And He came to see Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No, he came to our temple in Los Angeles and paid three hundred dollars to the Deity.
Devotee: Oh, that's nice.
Prabhupāda: Some jewels.
Yogeśvara: That's nice. He's the most popular young poet in the United States, Bob Dylan. All the young people have his records.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: Tonight there's a meeting scheduled at six-thirty here. There's a big professor of philosophy, it's called the Sorbonne. Have you ever heard of this school? The Sorbonne? It's the big French University. So he called, he requested if you would see him tonight. So we set appointment for six-thirty.
Prabhupāda: So Śivānanda Prabhu, you are doing well? Your wife came to see me. [break]
Yogeśvara: He's named Maurice Rougemont. Śrīla Prabhupāda, notre maitre spirituel.
Reporter: Enchantez.
Yogeśvara: Mr. Rougemont is a journalist from Combat magazine, newspaper. Combat is the newspaper of the socialists of France. Political newspaper, and Mr. Rougemont had some questions about the political and government programs of the Society.
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
Reporter: You accept to answer my questions?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Thank you very much. Well, the first point is people are used to seeing that your Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is completely out of life and doesn't take any interest into the real life, materialistic, you know. So, but I think it's a mistake perhaps. It's a mistake. And that...
Yogeśvara: (French)
Reporter: (French)
Yogeśvara: Ah, oui?
Reporter: Oui. I've heard that... It's a mistake. And your movement, your consciousness of Kṛṣṇa, engloves, takes all the direction of economics and political possibility.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Reporter: Can you speak, explain me about that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our aim is realization of God.
Reporter: Yes.
Yogeśvara: (French: Would you like a translation?)
Reporter: Oui.
Yogeśvara: (from this point Yogeśvara translates some of the dialogue)
Prabhupāda: And to get help for this realization we are concerned with everything. Naturally, politics, economics, science, art, philosophy, everything is included. And that is the perfection of all other subject matter. Everything has got an objective. So any of these departmental knowledge, namely politics, economics, art, science, philosophy, religion, art, science, philosophy, religion, everything should be aimed to achieve this end, God realization.
Reporter: But, thank you. But, uh, so, in this way, you have to, in all of the science, you mean, economic, politic, etc., you have to take position, sometimes perhaps. For instance, for going to the knowing of Kṛṣṇa in politics perhaps you will choose one system or the other. And in science, in philosophy, etc. Do you... But this, those choose have never been explained to the people, you know.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it should be.
Reporter: It should be. Have you...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we, we, we have explained it in our book, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, wherever possibility. Find out that verse: kāmam, kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ SB 1.10.4 . Find out this verse.
Śrutakīrti: It's in First Canto?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ SB 1.10.4 . You can...
Śrutakīrti: Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ?
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Yogeśvara: (in French:) He's looking for a specific reference in that book which explains the beginning of our political program.
Śrutakīrti:
kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ
sarva kāma dughā mahī
siṣicuḥ sma vrajān gāvaḥ
payasodhasvatīr mudā
SB 1.10.4
"During the reign of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, the clouds showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."
Prabhupāda: Now here is economics, politics and everything. So by Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we want to see that everyone is getting nicely the necessities of life. That is economic. Is it not?
Reporter: It is economic in a very, in a very...
Prabhupāda: Brotherhood. Actually, we develop economics for getting the necessities of life. Is it not? That is economics.
Reporter: Yeah. But the point is that these necessities of life is a frontier, you know, (indistinct) which is always farther, and farther and farther, always more pushed, pushed away, pushed away by new things. So...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is artificial. That is artificial. We are not concerned with artificial things. Just like you require to eat. Now artificially you can increase so many things for eating purposes. But you must eat. That is the economic question. It is not that you should starve. It is not our proposal that you become Kṛṣṇa conscious by starving. No. You must have sufficient necessities of life.
Reporter: All right. So... The purpose for economic plan of all the planet, for the world would be everybody can eat, and I suppose just, just eating and some clothes and some roof to be, if you are in a cold country...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Eating, sleeping... Sleeping requires roof, apartment. So it includes your housing, your eating, your sex urge, and your defence. Everything should be nicely... So arrangement should be made that people are not harassed for these necessities of life.
Reporter: And all the rest is superfluous. Is too much.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Reporter: All the rest is superficial, is superficial.
Prabhupāda: What is superficial?
Devotee: Extra. Not needed.
Yogeśvara: Anything beyond these four basics is...
Prabhupāda: That is necessities of life. Because you have got this body, so you must supply the necessities of the body. That we supply. Not only that. We want to keep men in so peaceful condition that he's not disturbed by mental anxieties, bodily disease, natural disturbances and fighting or quarreling with other living entities. So when he's perfectly in peaceful condition of life, he can save time for advancement in spiritual consciousness.
Reporter: Sure, so...
Prabhupāda: But aim is that his life, everyone's life is meant for spiritual realization. So to, in order to achieve this end of life he must be kept in peaceful condition of life.
Yogeśvara: He asks: "In order to achieve these goals is it our intention to do like the Christians and make everyone convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?"
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: In order to achieve our goals, do we intend doing like the Christians tried to do, making everyone convert to their side. Is that what we want to do, make everyone convert to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? If Kṛṣṇa consciousness is good, why everyone should not take to it?
Yogeśvara: Ah. This is an important question. He says seeing the world as it is today, what is the most preferable social organization from the Kṛṣṇa conscious point of view?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: How should society be organized in order to achieve these goals?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You organize that there should be division of different classes of men. The first class men, the second class men, the third class men, fourth class men. The first-class men means the most intelligent class of men. Second-class men means those who are dealing in politics. Third-class men means those who are dealing in economics, industry, trade. And fourth-class men means they have no intelligence to take up all these things, but they work only. But all of them should cooperate. For the general benefit of the whole human society. We have got engagement for the first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Just like we have got in our body the brain, the arms, the belly, and the legs. But all of them are cooperating for keeping the body fit. Similarly, the first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men should cooperate for achieving the end, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Bhagavān: It's not that one class is feeling exploited by another class.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Helping. Just like when there is some pain in my leg. My brain is working how to cure it. It is helping. It is not exploiting. Similarly, my brain wants to go somewhere to see something. My leg is helping to carry me there. Just like you wanted to see me. Your brain said that: "I must see this man." Your leg carried you. This is cooperation. You have got some capacity. You do it for the benefit of the society so that he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This, this plan is perfect socialism. Socialism, socialism means everyone is working for elevation of everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because that is the highest perfection of life.
Bhagavān: Another question?
Reporter: No, I think it's all right. You have a speech tomorrow? You will have a speech tomorrow?
Prabhupāda: Where?
Bhagavān: Yes, here, yes.
Devotee: Here, it'll be.
Bhagavān: Here. In the afternoon you are scheduled to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the subject matter? Any (indistinct).
Bhagavān: As you like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is the most refined socialism. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Our socialism means centering around Kṛṣṇa. Just like Russian socialism is around the ideas of Marx or Lenin. So we have got also similar leader. As the communist has got the leader, Marx or Lenin, similarly we have also got the leader, Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: There is, there is kind of socialist or communist philosophy that says that everyone must be able to do the same work in order to be equal.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position.
Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Yogeśvara: In ISKCON, are there these four divisions?
Prabhupāda: No, we are transcendental to all these material divisions. This is material division.
Yogeśvara: In that case, in which of these four divisions are we?
Prabhupāda: First-class. That is the beginning. But we go above the first-class. [break] Similarly, socially also, you must have four divisions. The reason is the material nature is working under three divisions, goodness, passion and ignorance. In our body also, the brain is working under goodness quality. The arm is working under the influence of passion. The belly is working in between passion and ignorance. And the leg is working under ignorance. Leg cannot work unless there is direction by the brain. At the present moment, the society's working under the influence of passion and ignorance. The brain is lacking now. Therefore we are creating Kṛṣṇa conscious men who has got real brain. Intelligent class of men. So other classes of men who are acting under influence of passion and ignorance, they should take direction from us. And for our directing business, we don't charge anything. And if they follow our direction, they have no loss.
Bhagavān: It can be tested.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this movement is the most important movement. For giving direction, we don't charge, and by following our direction, they don't lose anything. So why not make an experiment and see the result? The result is already there. Any intelligent man can see. It is not bluff.
Bhagavān: We are living, sixty, seventy people in this house, cooperatively, like this. That is a very great thing.
Prabhupāda: And they are living very happily. You can see from their face. Yes. They are known as bright-faced. Yes. Many, I mean, Christian priests, they came to congratulate me: "Swamiji, how you have made your disciples so jolly and bright-faced?" The government in America, they are surprised, that even after spending millions of dollars, they could not drive away LSD intoxication. And as soon as a intoxicated person comes to our camp, he not only gives up LSD and liquor, he gives up even smoking, drinking tea and coffee. So why not experiment this movement. The greatest socialist movement. If you want to get the socialistic idea, we can give you. Would you like to take?
Reporter: Oh, I don't trust. I could trust. Yeah. But...
Prabhupāda: Our socialistic idea, you can note down...
Reporter: I have nothing to lose but do you think you could manage all society very complex, as our...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: It's more than...
Prabhupāda: We can, we can make the society perfect if they take our advice. Because we are working as the brain.
Bhagavān: He can see Prabhupāda's books. Our philosophy is not small philosophy.
Reporter: Just a last question. Just... You were saying, minute before that the socialism, your socialism is that Kṛṣṇa is your Marx, sort of.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Yeah. But... It will be my last question. What about you in that? Would you be, you are a spiritual chief. Would you be...?
Prabhupāda: I am not spiritual chief. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual chief.
Reporter: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am simply explaining what Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā. I am acting on His behalf. I am acting on His behalf. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that there is no more higher authority than Him. I am speaking to my students: "There is no more higher authority than Kṛṣṇa." So, in other words, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's statement and my statement.
Reporter: I understand. But you know that if you want for changing society you must have a force...
Yogeśvara: You need the strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: You have to have sufficient strength to change society.
Prabhupāda: I may not have sufficient strength. I can... If I can convert a dozen of people, that is my success.
Reporter: I think, I think...
Prabhupāda: And if you want to know our socialistic idea, I can give you.
Reporter: Yeah. Because I thought you know, it was just an idea of your... But I shall never think it was so, so much clear.
Yogeśvara: He never thought that our program was quite so detailed.
Prabhupāda: It is most scientific program.
Bhagavān: We have also economic position.
Prabhupāda: Everything, I have explained. Now our socialist idea is: God is the father of all living beings. And whatever there is on the surface of the globe, on the sea, on the sky, everything belongs to God. And all the sons of God has equal right to enjoy it. But nobody... (aside:) He is finished? But nobody is allowed to take more than he requires. If one takes more than he requires, he's to be punished. This is our socialist idea. As we think all living entities sons of God, therefore even a lizard in my room should not starve.
Bhagavān: He should not starve is the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: He should not be allowed to go hungry.
Prabhupāda: Even a snake is there, he should not also starve. He must have food. We do not support such rascal philosophy that you give food to the man, and send the animals to the slaughterhouse. We do not support this rascaldom, our philosophy is: as human being has got the right to take share of God's property and live, similarly all other living entities, they have got right.
Reporter: Have you a point of view about the demographic problem and the problem of (French)?
Yogeśvara: Do we have a viewpoint on contraception?
Prabhupāda: That is most sinful activity. Because a child is coming to live at the expense of God's property, and the rascal father is thinking of overpopulation.
Yogeśvara: Or, as Prabhupāda was saying, he's thinking there's overpopulation.
Reporter: (French)
Yogeśvara: But he says but this is a fact, this overpopulation.
Prabhupāda: That is another wrong impression. Foolish impression. The whole world has got sufficient place to produce food for ten times the population as it is now. The Americans, they throw grains in the water. So if they send the excess grain to the place where grain is not sufficient, then it is God conscious-ness. If the so-called overpopulation is spread all over the world, there is sufficient place in Africa, Australia, America. The overpopulation can grow their food in these vast uncultivated land.
Yogeśvara: He says that only resolves the problem for a few years.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. We don't believe it. That is not...
Yogeśvara: Why. Why is it that this program...?
Prabhupāda: Why do they think that it is for few years?
Yogeśvara: He's thinking that the Earth is not capable of providing enough...
Prabhupāda: What does he know about Earth? His knowledge is not sufficient. He, he's speaking like a woman who saw in the marketplace in the morning thousands of people have gathered, and she began to cry: "Where I shall give place to these men?" So her son came: "My dear mother, don't cry. You come in the evening. We shall find some solution." So when she came in the evening, there was nobody.
Yogeśvara: You can translate that story? (French) (to Prabhupāda:) She went there to buy her foodstuffs?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: So you are thinking in that way. "How I shall provide this population?" That is the old woman's crying. Without sufficient knowledge. We do not believe in this, all rascaldom. We believe in God. If God can create... just like animals. They do not cry. They're increasing. The hogs and dogs, even lower animals... This is demonic economy. A man is holding thousands of acres of land and he's thinking of overpopulation. Why not he distributes the thousands of acres of land to the people? They would produce their own food. That is the, that is the defect of so-called socialism. But here we give a right type of socialism.
Yogeśvara: He thinks he has a fairly clear idea of what our program is now.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Thank you very much for this (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Bhagavān: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Dr. Inger.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Come. Come on.
Yogeśvara: Give him some prasādam before he leaves.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Take little prasādam.
Reporter: Thank you very much.
Dr. Inger: I was hoping, many years since I went to London to the Hare Krishna center there...,
Prabhupāda: Oh, you have been in our temple?
Dr. Inger: Many times, yes. And I had followed the booklets that came, Back to Godhead, also read. I didn't get, I didn't have a copy of the Bhāgavatam, but I read your translations...
Prabhupāda: You are Indian?
Dr. Inger: Yes, I'm an Indian. I have been working a long time in Paris. I am a resident more or less in Paris. I work for UNESCO, and I'm a writer. I go backwards and forwards a lot to India. But my headquarters have been here for a long time. So I'm associated...
Prabhupāda: How long you are here?
Dr. Inger: In France, I've been twenty-five years.
Prabhupāda: Oh, I see. And wherefrom you came?
Dr. Inger: Punjab.
Prabhupāda: Punjab.
Dr. Inger: Before it was divided into two.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes.
Dr. Inger: Before the...
Prabhupāda: Which district.
Dr. Inger: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Which district?
Dr. Inger: Lahore.
Prabhupāda: Lahore.
Dr. Inger: Lahore.
Prabhupāda: Lahore City proper.
Dr. Inger: Yes. I taught there. And then, of course, it was divided, and, before that, I came here and joined.
Prabhupāda: I went to Lahore sometimes.
Dr. Inger: I see.
Prabhupāda: In 1925. There, in Lahore, there is, there were many Bengalis.
Dr. Inger: Oh yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So one Bengali gentleman, he was Mr. Mitha, they were physician. So I became his guest. They were very well-to-do men. They were living therefore two, three generations. Mithi family.
Dr. Inger: I see. There was also some man called Birmitha. Was he the same? Bir...
Prabhupāda: I, I...
Dr. Inger: Perhaps...
Prabhupāda: I forget the name.
Dr. Inger: Yes, there were quite a number of Bengalis there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. Inger: Long time ago.
Prabhupāda: Long time ago. I went there in 1925. I was going to Kashmir. On my way I stopped in Lahore, Amritsar, and some other places.
Dr. Inger: Yes, and yes, and then, you came first to Europe about six years ago?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Inger: Yes, that's right. That's when... It was about a year after that I, or two years, that I went to London. And then saw the, saw there several times. And then, of course, been reading books. Here, too, I came across some people. When it first started, it was in Boulevard Raspail. Then it went to Fontenay Aux Rose.
Yogeśvara: He's been following our movement here in Paris as well.
Dr. Inger: Yes, yes. I met a few. In fact the, this young Spaniard who showed us up, I saw him when he was selling a few things in the Drug Store. Yes. You know. Malas and other stuff.
Bhagavān: So now we are much bigger.
Dr. Inger: Yes, yes. Of course. And...
Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books?
Dr. Inger: No, no. I have only seen a few in London.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you show our books. Show him?
Dr. Inger: I haven't seen the new ones. I have seen the...
Prabhupāda: Bring all the books.
Devotee: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam? [break]
Prabhupāda: These books have been produced within six years.
Dr. Inger: Really!
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Inger: Fantastic. I do not know how. So much work, incredible!
Prabhupāda: I work at night, writing books. My work is going on. At night, I write. [break] In the UNESCO, to understand God or spiritual life, they do not think it a necessary?
Dr. Inger: Well, that's a very, very important question. I think that the real trouble is that all of them are bureaucrats, sitting in offices, creating more jobs for other officers. I was one of the earliest members. I came when Dr. Radhakrishnan was the, was our president. And... At the very early stage. In those days, there was that feeling, that some importance should be given, but because it became a governmental organization, because every religion thinks that they should have a part to play in it, what they did was, they brought out, in ten volumes, a scientific and cultural history of mankind. But it has, it's only incidentally philosophy, only incidentally religion. The only religious books that have come out are those that have been translated. Old books like the second book to the East, for instance. Max Muller's books. And they have been reprinted. And occasionally a few translations have been done from Tulasidāsa or some other philosophers, rewritten, like Śaṅkara later on. But, but all of those have been done because somebody else has commissioned them. But otherwise, there isn't... Except they have had some meetings in various placed. But at none of these meetings do they really discuss the problem that of the, well occasional people, occasional philosophers, they never really discuss that. I think because the word, religion, I think probably is the stumbling block...
Prabhupāda: No, apart from religion. Religion may be sentiment or some emotion. That is another thing.
Dr. Inger: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But we can ask what is this cosmic manifestation, what is the purpose of this, who created, how it is created. Are they not scientific?
Dr. Inger: Yes. Now this is another problem. Everything of a philosophical kind, they call it science, human sciences, natural sciences, moral sciences. They think that is a fault(?) to satisfy scientific spirit. I think from that point of view, they allow big conferences to be held where a particular theme is taken, different people come. So the organization encourages, stimulates activities proposed, submitted and finally passed in resolutions by different commissions and different countries. And then it's held. And at that particular time, some people come and speak. So they have had... But they haven't... Mostly these meetings have been held and... Very few have been held here, except when they celebrated the tintinary(?) of Aurobindo, last year. Or when they celebrated the centenary of, another centenary of Ramakrishna. Like that. But not always.
Prabhupāda: Not Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Inger: They haven't. Not so far. Because from their point of view they have to prove the dates, historical dates, how many centuries, and so forth.
Prabhupāda: It is there in the śāstras.
Dr. Inger: I know. But so... If one can put it that way, then somebody has to submit that we are going to celebrate the three thousand anniversary, or four thousand anniversary, and... But no such step has been taken. But such an idea can be proposed.
Prabhupāda: No, suppose the United Nations is the organization of the whole human society, so if I ask the United Nations, as an organization that: "What is the purpose of this cosmic manifestation?" That is a fact. There is a cosmic manifestation. The scientists, they are also trying to understand. So there are so many scientists, philosophers, what is their answer? Suppose I am inquisitive to know something. So where shall I inquire?
Dr. Inger: Now if you were to inquire from... Because the only organization which deals with culture, therefore philosophy, therefore religion, therefore art, therefore music, is UNESCO Paris. Not New York. And if you did put such a question, you would get some kind of reply from one of the directors who says: "We, we... Such a proposal has not been made. But if such a proposal is made, let us say, presented, by any member state, out of the hundred and twenty-six or twenty-seven member states, and it is submitted to the general conference where it meets in session, two years in October, and is passed through, we will be able..." Now usually what happens is one country presents it and if the, and what it means in terms of expense, how much, how many people are going to be invited, and what is going to be the plan. And if that is done, they would say: "Yes, I think such a study has to be made." And it's possible to make it.
Prabhupāda: A sectarian question.
Dr. Inger: No, no, no. It won't be.
Prabhupāda: It is... Why it should be presented to Pārtha-sārathi. Even American representative or English representative or French representative, any representative can do...
Dr. Inger: Because being a governmental organization, the only kind of reply one would get from such a question would be a very polite and courteous one, but it wouldn't have... No action would be taken. Action can only be taken, if it is governmentally presented. That is the only problem. There are many ideas which come forward, boundless ones, but the people need to present them officially. And... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...your position there?
Dr. Inger: Well, now I am a consultant. I used to be a regular member of the staff for a long time. Now I do certain projects for them, and I'm a visiting professor, and I'm a writer, visiting professor at different universities. So I'm connected with, with UNESCO in a way that I can not be now a permanent member of the staff which I was... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...purpose is not to propose only. Because I wish that there are so many scient..., scientific men, philosophers and thoughtful men... Suppose even if I ask you, what is your answer, that what is the purpose...? The cosmic manifestation is there, the universe is there, and there are innumerable planets within this universe, and they are very organizely kept. Everything is nicely going on. The sun is rising in due time. The moon is rising in due time. The seasons, seasons are changing. There is nice organization. So is it not a bona fide inquiry to, "What is the purpose of this organization?"
Dr. Inger: Well, the purpose is to understand oneself in relation to the cosmos.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Inger: And therefore everything else is valueless if it has no relation to the total.
Prabhupāda: No, relation is already there because, as the sun is part of this cosmos, I'm also one of the parts. So why the sun is made and why I am also made? What is this purpose? That is my question.
Dr. Inger: There's a discovery of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. The relation is already there.
Dr. Inger: The discoveries...
Prabhupāda: Because I am part of this creation. Now why I am created a man, another is created an elephant, another is created Brahmā, another is created ant, another is created...? So many. Why this is?
Dr. Inger: The purpose of life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I, I, I, I don't think anyone has thought over this matter.
Dr. Inger: It certainly needs to be...
Prabhupāda: But there is. There are so many philosophers, scientists... Why do they not try to think of it? What is this purpose?
Dr. Inger: Well, some have tried to talk about the purpose of existence that we are little entities of no significance. Some... Because...
Prabhupāda: No. My question is why you have become a little entity, another has become big entity?
Dr. Inger: Some people would say that it is due to our past. Past connections or reincarnations.
Devotee: Karma.
Dr. Inger: karma.
Prabhupāda: So. Yes, karma...
Dr. Inger: Exactly. What we have gone through. We are the, we are the result of our past actions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a fact. That is a fact. Because we get all this information from Vedic literature. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa SB 3.31.1 . You understand Sanskrit?
Dr. Inger: Little bit.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantor deha upapattaye. A living entity is getting body by, as a result of his karma. And supervised by higher authority. Now when we speak of karma, or result of karma, there must be somebody who will judge. Just like one has stolen something, and the magistrate is judging the karma, the criminal activity, and he's putting him either in the prison house or getting him released. "No, he's not culprit." So as soon as we speak of karma, there must be somebody else to judge. And that judgement is said: daiva netreṇa. Daiva means divine supervision. So what is that divine supervision? Next question immediately comes. As soon as you accept karma, and the resultant action, and it is supervised by the divine authority, then next question will be: what is that divine authority? In this way, we have to go forward. So that sort of education is nowhere in the world.
Dr. Inger: No. Not here, in any case.
Prabhupāda: No, here, or India, or everywhere.
Dr. Inger: Yes. Nobody is...
Prabhupāda: So that means people have become so dull in spite of so-called education.
Dr. Inger: That is true.
Prabhupāda: That's, that's my point.
Dr. Inger: Oh yes. Education is merely book knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā.
Dr. Inger: ...of substance given, read, prepared.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Dr. Inger: They don't go to the basic.
Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as simply wasting time. That's all.
dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ puṁsāṁ
viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ
notpādayed ratiṁ yadi
śrama eva hi kevalam
SB 1.2.8
Śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone is acting. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ. According to Vedic civilization, there are four divisions of men. brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and further, spiritual divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So everyone has got some duty according to his position. So Bhāgavata says that even a person executes his duty very perfectly, but if he does not awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all that he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the UNESCO, United Nations, UNO, they're simply wasting their time. From practical point of view, they're unable to do anything. Because the original idea was to stop war. But the war is going on, fighting is going on. They could not stop it. And United Nations... But actually they are becoming disunited more and more. Pakistan was not there. You know very well. Lahore was your country. Now it is other's country. So in this way, there cannot be any solution. There cannot be any solution. We must know the central point. The central point is Kṛṣṇa. We get from... I'm not manufacturing these ideas. Bhagavad-gita is recognized book. There it is stated that:
bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
sarva-loka-maheśvaram
suhṛdaṁ sarva bhūtānāṁ
jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
BG 5.29
If, actually, anyone wants śānti, peace, he must know these three things: The Lord, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the enjoyer, bhokta. What is called? Beneficiary? Yes. Because He's the owner. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. And He's friend of everyone. Suhṛdaṁ-sarva-bhūtānām. Jñātvā, knowing this, mām, Me, Kṛṣṇa says, śāntim ṛcchati, there is śānti. There is śānti. Otherwise, this, this so-called conference, and big, big office, big, big salary, big, big officers, it will never be successful.
Dr. Inger: Quite. And this basis, which is the essence of everything.
Prabhupāda: Three things only.
Dr. Inger: Yes. That is one thing they want to avoid.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their nonsense.
Dr. Inger: In other words, everything else is a plan or an excuse to escape from yourself.
Prabhupāda: That means it is a association of cheaters and cheated. Somebody wants to cheat and somebody's being cheated. That's all. That is our opinion. So how the association of cheaters and cheated can do anything good to the human society? They're cheaters. They do not know how this peace has to be attained, and they're trying to attain peace in their own way. Therefore they're cheaters. You do not a subject matter, how to do it, and you're trying to do it, that means you are cheater. It may be very strong words, but the fact is there. Why should you try something which you do not know adequately? That is our protest.
Dr. Inger: Well, many people would say that the use of the intellect alone, which is an excuse for not going deep into oneself, is the technique that is used. What can be rationally explained, only rationally explained, is what matters.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Inger: Anything where, something beyond reason, call it intuition...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is quite reasonable. When... [break]
Prabhupāda: Everything... In this table, whatever is there, it is created. The table is created. The light is created. Everything is created by somebody. So how I can deny this fact, that somebody has created the whole universe? If you say, "It has comes automatically, dropped," that is rascaldom. It must be accepted somebody has created. So who is that somebody? You have not created. The Americans have not created, the Englishmen have not created, or I have created, you have created, but we can understand that somebody has created. So who will be the proprietor? I shall be proprietor or the creator shall be proprietor? Who shall be the proprietor?
Dr. Inger: Creator. Of course.
Prabhupāda: Creator. So why you are claiming other's property as "my own"? "This is my country. This is my country." And we are so rascal and we are making United Nation.
Dr. Inger: It doesn't belong to anyone.
Prabhupāda: It doesn't belong to anyone. And these rascals are claiming, "This is my. This is my, this is my flag. This is..." Therefore they are all cheaters. And they are combining and trying to cheat other that "How much I can cheat you." "I am American. How much I can cheat you, Russian." Russian thinking, "Yes, I am also cheater. How much I can cheat you." This is going on, cheaters and cheated. And they are wasting their time. Is that civilization, to become cheater and cheated and waste our time in some so-called conferences? Is that civilization, do you think?
Dr. Inger: No. Not at all, but that's exactly as you say.
Prabhupāda: American, they cheated the Red Indians. They got the land. Now they are claiming, "It is my land." But where you got this land? You have cheated the Red Indians, and you claim now it is your land. "Nobody should come here." Everywhere that is there it belongs to... Napoleon, he thought, "France is mine." France is there. Where he has gone, the proprietor? Yes. And with this idea he fought so much. Now nobody knows what he has become, where he is living, either in France or in hell, maybe in heaven. But there are so many places and so many forms of life. And our Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. Just like I am now in this body. Child is in this body. So all of us sometimes were in this body, childish. So where is that body? That body is not existing. But I am existing; you are existing. You know that you had such a body. You were also playing like this child. I also remember. So the body is not existing. I am existing. So I have got a different body now. So where is the difficulty to under-stand that when this body is also finished I get another body? Where is the difficulty? And Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. As we are changing from one body to another, another, another, even within our experience, similarly, as soon as this body is finished, I get another body. Now I am working in this body as national, as Napoleon, as Gandhi, as you according to our own whims and ideas, and fighting in the UNESCO, everything, just like recently Pakistan representative, India... But as soon as the body is finished, just like Gandhi finished, Jinnah finished, now what kind of body he has got now? May not be Indian or Pakistani. Now in that body he is thinking according to his body, a dog is thinking according to the doggish body. A man is thinking according to the man's body. So thinking and everything is changed with the change of the body. Just like this child is. This child, she cannot concentrate because due to the body. Other gentlemen, ladies, they can concentrate. So she has to get a different body to have a different mentality. So in other words, with the change of the body the mentality changes. So in this body I am thinking of France, and if my next body, it is not in France or is not human, I will think otherwise. So the whole duration of my life which I thought in one way, that is simply wasted. Simply wasted. They do not know. This knowledge is lacking. There is no such knowledge in the university, any education, nothing. Simply they are wasting time. Simply. They have no perfect knowledge. They are wasting their time, and doing something just like childish, and going on as advanced in civilization, and so on, so on, so on. Now they should think. Simply on some utopian ideas they should not go. They should know, "What is the purpose of life, what is our connection with this cosmic manifestation, if... There must be some creator. Who is that creator? What is my relation with Him?" These... There are so many things. But they are neglecting. And still, they are passing on as scientist, as philosopher, as politicians and leaders.
Dr. Inger: That's the worst of governments you see, because they stand, as You said rightly each for himself.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it is, we are discussing this point, that this illusion is going on. But human form of life, a human being can get out of this illusion. We have got sufficient sources of knowledge, especially in the Vedic knowledge. So why do we not take advantage of this knowledge and make our life successful? Yes. That is my proposal. And we are struggling with this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement with this purpose only, that these people are missing the point and wasting their time and life unnecessarily under some illusion. To try to save them, that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. [break] ...talked with so many Christian priests. Naturally while discussing I asked them that "In your Bible it is said, 'Thou shall not kill.' Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse?" They cannot answer properly. In this way and this way they try to avoid and support this slaughterhouse.
Dr. Inger: It's difficult to answer it.
Prabhupāda: This is going on.
Dr. Inger: When I asked a group of priests at a meeting which was to celebrate the anniversary of a leading Catholic thinker, I.R. Shadder(?), I just asked him about the Sermon on the Mount, referring to similarities between the teachings of Sermon on the Mount and Hindu thought. He says, "You see, but the point is this, that the Sermon on the Mount is not meant for everybody. It is only meant for a very few. And therefore most of us, including the present company," he said, "cannot use it in everyday life." I said, "Do you mean it is only meant for monks?" He hesitated but said, "If you like, yes." But I said, "I imagined that this was meant for everyone and that anyone could follow it." And he said, "Well, it is too dangerous a teaching to give to everyone."
Prabhupāda: Just see. And therefore I say, "Cheater and cheated." Yes. Similarly, scientists also. Recently in Los Angeles, California University, one professor, a big scientist came. He's a Nobel Prize owner. He described, gave lecture. He has written one book, on which he has got Nobel Prize, Evolution of Chemicals. He wants to prove by chemical, combination of chemical, life has come into existence. That is his theory, like Darwin's theory, that life is from matter or chemical. So after hearing the lecture, there is a professor also, a student, yes. He is also Doctor of Chemistry. He is my disciple. He inquired that "If I give you all these chemicals, whether you can produce life?" At that time he said, "That I cannot say." Just see. He is proposing that "From these chemicals, life has begun," and when he is questioned whether by supplying these chemicals he can produce a life, he said, "That I cannot say." This is going on. Then what is the... Then, if you cannot say, then why you are saying that from these chemicals life has come? So when they are caught up for practical purposes, they'll deny. And they are passing on as philosopher, as scientist, priest, and these things. Just see. (someone comes in) What is that?
Haṁsadūta: This is your visa. It's been extend...
Guru-g aurāṅga : I just came back from the airport, and they made it good.
Haṁsadūta: It's been extended up until the 16th.
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda will be here till the 16th, so if you would like to come back, if you would like to bring some friends...
Dr. Inger: Yes, I would most certainly like to come back if I may. What is the best time?
Bhagavān: About three to four in the evening.
Prabhupāda: In the evening at four.
Dr. Inger: All right. I would like to bring Chauhan(?) and two other men.
Bhagavān: You can bring as many as you like.
Yogeśvara: We have a very great interest in having people with something to say, some ability to respond to the philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, come and confront our movement.
Dr. Inger: Yes, I gathered from the papers that you had had Jean Danielou.
Yogeśvara: Cardinal Danielou. Yes, that meeting has already taken place. That was yesterday with the cardinal. He read in the newspaper that it was going to take place. Where did you read that?
Dr. Inger: Yes. In Le Monde, yesterday. Because Cardinal Danielou has brother called Alec.
Yogeśvara: This is the Vedic writer, the cardinal's brother.
Dr. Inger: Yes, he was never (indistinct) he did a lot of translation work, studies in Madras. So then...
Yogeśvara: Is this the article?
Dr. Inger: Yes, this is the article. It says right here. (end)