770219 - Conversation E - Mayapur
Prabhupāda: How do they speak there is no soul? What is the reason?
Acyutānanda: Their reason is they cannot see the soul.
Prabhupāda: Then they have no intelligence. Mūḍha.
Acyutānanda: When we dig a hole here and there's water, within a few weeks there's fish and frogs. They say that is...
Prabhupāda: Jalaja. First jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Not only one variety, but nine lakhs of varieties they come out from the water.
Acyutānanda: But where do they come? They're in the water, latent in the water.
Prabhupāda: They're alive. Sarva-ga. Therefore we say that "Why not in the fire?" If there is life in water, why not in the fire? You cannot see. You have no eyes. There is life, and Kṛṣṇa says, nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ. Fire does not burn the living being, so why they will be not in fire? And Kṛṣṇa said, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham. He entered the sun planet.
Acyutānanda: So nothing material can divide the soul, but spiritual, when it enters the spiritual world, then it is dividing.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dividing
Acyutānanda: Māyāvādī.
Prabhupāda: Sanātana. That is Māyāvāda. Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātanaḥ BG 15.7 . Sanātana means eternally they are divided. And Kṛṣṇa says further in the Second Chapter that...
Hari-śauri: Na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "You, Me, and all these kings, they were existing—the individual. You, Me, and... They're existing now, and they'll continue to exist." So where there is oneness? All individual eternally, as aṁśa, aṁśī, this finger and the body. You can say this finger is my body, but finger is not the body, whole body. Finger is finger. Not that if Kṛṣṇa's body is eternal, the finger is also eternal. Not that today it is finger, tomorrow is whole body. That is defective, Māyāvāda philosophy. Finger always exists as finger. Kṛṣṇa is eternal, His finger is eternal, but the finger and the body is the same material. They're not different. They become different when they come to material world without touch of Kṛṣṇa. This finger is finger even it is cut, but it is useless. When this finger is cut and fallen in the ground it will be said, "finger of Swamiji or somebody." It is not anything... But because it is cut from the whole, it has no value. One screw from this machine is the same screw. But when it is separate from this machine, it has no value. But when you want to add to it—you go to purchase that screw—it will cost you five rupees. But without this machine, nobody cares for that screw. So our position is like that.
kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare
nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
( Prema-vivarta )
As soon as he separated from Kṛṣṇa to become independent, that is māyā. He has, loses all value, spiritual value. And in connection with māyā, it appears in different forms. And, the example is given, as the moon reflected in the water and when the water is agitated, it is sometimes round, sometimes straight, sometimes broken, sometimes..., like that... So we are eternal spirit soul. As soon as we come in contact with māyā, by agitation of the mind we assume different forms of life—and suffer. Hañā māyāra dāsa kari' nānā abhilāṣa. And that abhilāṣa is the agitation. The same example, that, is given. Moon is sometimes round, sometimes long, sometimes broken, sometimes... It is nothing. It is neither broken, neither round, nor... It is. It is as it is. But on account of agitation of the material body, it appears sometimes demigod, sometimes man, sometimes hog, sometimes cat-change, change of the body, 8,400,000 different change. (aside:) You can keep it there. Can keep it. All right. We have to stop this change, and that is the mission of human life: no more cat, no more dog, no more demigod, but eternally servitor of Kṛṣṇa as cowherd boys, and gopīs, or whatever you like. As trees, as calves, as cows, as Yamunā water, as Vṛndāvana-bhūmi—everything spiritual. Enjoy. Somebody's enjoying spiritual happiness by becoming Yamunā water. Somebody's enjoying as flower of Vṛndāvana, somebody as calf, somebody as cow, somebody as father, as mother, as friend, as conjugal friend, gopīs —all concentrated in Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. Center is Kṛṣṇa. Yaśodā-nandana... What is that? Braja-jana-rañjana... Huh? Yāmuna-tīra-bana-cārī. Rādhā-mādhava kuñja-bihārī, yāmuna-tīra-bana-cārī. So Yamunā is spiritual. Yāmuna-tīra is spiritual. The varieties, the Māyāvādī cannot understand. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ SB 10.2.32 . They want varieties, but don't accept spiritual variety. Therefore again material life. No other alternative. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanti. Again material varieties, philanthropic work, political work, this work, that work. First of all they give up- brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā, the jagan mithyā. And again they come out to open school. Why you come here again? Āruhya kṛcchreṇa param..., patanty adhaḥ. Why? Anādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ. They could not capture the spiritual varieties. Anādṛta. As soon as there is spiritual varieties they think it is māyā. That is Māyāvāda. There is no māyā. Spiritual variety, there is no māyā. Variety is the mother of enjoyment. (others enter-Bengali)
Indian man: Operation Kṛṣṇa consciousness and destination Vaikuṇṭha.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Yes. Multi-varieties, all spiritual. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ... [Bs. 5.37]. (Bengali) There is nothing material. Everything ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ. Just like Brahmā took away—again He expanded. For one year nobody could understand that it is all expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has become calf, Kṛṣṇa has become cow, Kṛṣṇa has become a cowherd boy—everything. Then Brahmā saw, "Oh, I have done mistake." He can immediately expand into many thousands forms. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam ādyaṁ purāṇa-puruṣam... [Bs. 5.33]. What is that clipping? Go on reading.
Satsvarūpa: A number of clippings. This is a headline, that a new president, Carter, pardons draft evaders.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Carter?
Satsvarūpa: Previously there were so many young men in America who evaded the draft during the Vietnam war, and the government was looking for them. But now the new President is saying, "Let us forget the past. I forgive all these draft evaders. Let them come out and be good citizens."
Acyutānanda: Because if they have another war, nobody will go and fight that war again. They will all leave America. So they want America to be very good now, so that everyone will love America and come back. Because if there's another war nobody will join the army. They'll just leave.
Prabhupāda: So why there is war? They cannot stop war?
Acyutānanda: They start wars. (Prabhupāda chuckles) And in the chaos they make profit.
Prabhupāda: That means there are many like you.
Acyutānanda: Yes. (Prabhupāda chuckling) They're all in Canada, Mexico.
Prabhupāda: And Canada give them good shelter.
Acyutānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: People is proud to give American shelter. Is it not?
Acyutānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What other?
Satsvarūpa: This is an article... This is not very new. I don't know where all these articles came from, but it's about our movement in Chicago. It says, "The path of Kṛṣṇa is like a sharpened razor. Whether selling incense or salvation, this band refuses to split hairs." "Uncompromising," it describes us.
Prabhupāda: That is Kali's sign. Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. Five thousand years ago it was predicted, and now it is happening. Just see. This is śāstra. Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam. "Younger generation will think by keeping long hair they have become beautiful." It is mentioned in Bhāgavata. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi: "Marriage means sex life." As soon as there is disturbance in rati, it is divorce.
Satsvarūpa: This is two years old. "The deep roots of India's food plight."
Prabhupāda: That's not... New...
Acyutānanda: I think India has the whole world fooled, thinking that they have no food, so that they can get aid. Actually there is... Everywhere I go, there's more than enough food. Even if people don't give money, they give food. And the hippies come to India because they get food. There's so much food in India. Everyone will feed you, all the people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are feeding. We want to feed more.
Acyutānanda: But they make propaganda that they're starving to the whole world, that "We're starving nation," and they get aid. Powdered milk. Powdered milk is sold, though. Government takes that and they sell it.
Prabhupāda: All right, let us preach. That is our only business. Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ CC Adi 17.31 . (Bengali with Bhakti-caru Swami) This is family. (Bengali with guest) If you can find out, bring him some way or other. He is very qualified man, but he's misguided. I think he did not like to live separate from his wife. That is his demands, maybe. (Bengali) Very qualified man.
Pradyumna: Yes. English, Hindi, Bengali...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And he wanted to live with me. So what happened to him? (Bengali) Now we want some Bengali literature, Bengali, Hindi. (Bengali) He has got command of the right... (Bengali)
Pradyumna: No. It's new edition.
Prabhupāda: You find out that man. (Bengali) ... chai ne, drinking ne, smoking ne. It became too much inconvenience. Wife is separated. This is tapasya. It cannot be accepted by ordinary person. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa SB 6.1.13 . Tapasya begins from brahmacarya. And brahmacarya means "no," so many. No "yes." Only "no's." "Not this, not this, not this." It is very difficult. Therefore the Americans are surprised: "How our sons have accepted so many 'no's' unless there is brainwash? And this man knows some mind control, and he's controlling their mind, independence. Bas. Deprogram. Capture them." This is the... "How our sons can accept so many 'no's'? " And important items—no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication. Everything, life, is no. (laughs) Rāyarāma said, "It is simply 'no's.' " He left. What is their daily necessity, all "no." The same thing is happening now, that "How they have accepted the 'no's'? It is brainwash, mind control." Lord Zetland said, when he was offered these "no's," he said, "Impossible for us. We cannot give up this." And I was also thinking in the beginning, that "As soon as I propose this 'no's,' they will say, 'Go home.' (laughs) No more preaching." And it is Kṛṣṇa's desire, they accepted so many 'no's.' I was not hopeful that these American young boys or gentlemen will accept these 'no's,' because I heard, "Lord Zetland said, 'It is impossible.' " If they go to a, one goes to a restaurant, he must find out one illicit woman. Is it not? It is not the practice, that they should go to a restaurant with one girl? Otherwise he's vagabond. (Bengali) He was ten years in London. He has good experience in villages. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Bengali) Sit down. (Bengali) "...that you cannot become happy without Me. Therefore I advise you, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam SB 6.1.13 , aham tvāṁ sarva-pā -I'll give you..." [break] Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. There fore only intelligent person is he who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. All fools. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. (Bengali) [break] One dayānika,(?) what is that? If he, that time, one paisa, if he could collect two annas, oh, he would encourage him like anything.
Indian: Two annas, eight paisa.
Prabhupāda: Former paisa, when sixty-four paisa was one rupee. Now hundred equal to one. The purchasing power of money was big. Now thirty percent has gone up, but people's income has not gone up so much. Thirty percent, thirty times. Formerly gold was priced twenty rupees per tolā. Now it is six hundred rupees. So thirty times. But people have not increased their income thirty times. My father was earning two hundred fifty to three hundred per month. So we were middle class. So now thirty times of three hundred means nine thousand. So which middle-class man has increased so much? Middle class man now, if he's earning one thousand rupees he's considered very well-to-do. But what is that one thousand rupees? Nothing. My father had from one business, one hundred rupees, from another business sixty rupees, and we had a house rented, eighty rupees. Eighty rupees, sixty rupees and hundred rupees. How much? Two hundred forty, plus something more. Utmost, three hundred. And in our house four, five guests was always present. It didn't matter. Besides that, he was inviting some Vaiṣṇava, some sādhu. He married four daughters, and we were eating very sumptuously, daily two and half kg milk. Two annas per kg. Very nice milk. This man was coming from outside Calcutta. So we were so many children. We would stand, "Give some phāo: " Two half kg's milk and half kg phāo. He wouldn't mind.
Indian: Half kg, three, phāo ?
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Because we are so many children, little, little, little. Kṛṣṇa was asking for phāo. That is the system in India. You purchase something from some vendor and ask little more phāo. He'll give. That is included in the price. (Bengali) Phāo? Especially children, they'll ask," Phāo dā. " They'll give gladly. (Bengali) Ask them to come inside. (Bengali) Come inside. (Bengali) (end)