761009 - Arrival - Aligarh

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Arrival

761009AR-ALIGARH - October 9, 1976 - 54.36 Minutes

(Arrival Talk at House of Surendra Kumar Saigal)

Prabhupāda: . . . very glad to see you again. So this saṅkīrtana is all-glorious. That is the blessings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam. This is His blessing: simply by saṅkīrtana, in this age. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature, in Vedānta-sūtra, śabdād anāvṛtti. Anāvṛtti, liberation. Our present position is bondage. We are bound up by the laws of nature. We may foolishly declare independence—that is our foolishness—but actually we are bound up by the laws of nature.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

ahaṅkāra vimūdhātmā

kartāham . . .

(BG 3.27)

We are bound up by the laws of nature, but those who are fools, vimūdhātmā, under false prestige, such person thinks that he is independent. No. That is not.

So this is misunderstanding. So this misunderstanding has to be cleaned. That is the aim of life. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends that if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, then the first installment of benefit is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Because misunderstanding means within the heart. If the heart is clear, consciousness is clear, then there is no misunderstanding. So this consciousness has to be cleansed, and that is the first installment of the result of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅga paraṁ vrajet (SB 12.3.51). Simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's, kṛṣṇasya, holy name of Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, the same thing. Rāma and Kṛṣṇa there is no difference. Rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan (BS 5.39). So we require. The present position is misunderstanding that, "I am product of this material nature," "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," and so on, so on . . . so many designations. But we are none of them. This is the clearing. Ceto-darpaṇa. When you understand clearly that "I am not a Indian, I'm not a American, I'm not brāhmaṇa, I'm not kṣatriya"—means "I am not this body"—then the consciousness will be ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). This is wanted. This is success of life. Otherwise, if we remain in darkness of our existence . . . everyone is abodha-jāto. Anyone born in this material world in different platform . . . one may take birth as demigod in the heavenly planets or one may take birth as a human being in the lower planets. And lower than that, animal, plants. There are 8,400,000 different species of life.

So any form of life, we are bound up by the laws of nature, and bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān (BG 13.22). The puruṣaḥ . . . puruṣaḥ means the living entity. Puruṣaḥ . . . Actually, nobody is puruṣaḥ; everyone is prakṛti. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim parā (BG 7.5). Parā prakṛti. The material, matter, is the aparā-prakṛti, and spirit soul is parā-prakṛti. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly explained, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This is . . . bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā. This is separated. This is also nature, but inferior. Apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā. There is another prakṛti. What is that? Jīva-bhūto, this living entity. So living entity is also prakṛti, but because he has the tendency to enjoy this material world, he is sometimes described as puruṣaḥ. Puruṣaḥ means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. So the prakṛti forgets her position, and artificially he wants to become puruṣaḥ.

So this puruṣaḥ, prakṛti 'stho . . . puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān, so long he's in this material world, he has to associate with the modes of material nature, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān. And on account of the influence of the prakṛti-jān guṇa, he has to take different types of body. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti 'stho bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān kāraṇaṁ guṇa saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). This is the kāraṇa. He's associating with a particular type of the modes of prakṛti-jān guṇān—sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa—and on account of this he gets different types of body. You have to change your body. Dehāntaram. Tathā dehāntaram-prāptir (BG 2.13). But different grades of body is awarded by the laws of nature according to our karma, karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1).

So this is . . . our material position is that we are associating with different modes of material nature, and that is infection. If you become infected with some disease, germs, then you have to suffer from that disease. You cannot check it. Similarly, this infection will give us our next body. That we do not know. This is a rascal civilization. They're kept into the darkness, that how things are going on. Their so-called education, universities . . . so whatever they are doing, they are all being defeated. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam (SB 5.5.5). Ātma-tattvam. Unless one is inquisitive to understand, "What I am?" whatever he is doing, he's being defeated. That's all. Parābhavaḥ.

So the human life is meant for understanding what is the position, "What I am?" This is the intelligence. When Sanātana Gosvāmī approached Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu he was minister, very big man, but he understood that "What I am doing is not to my interest, because I do not know what I am." He submitted to Caitanya Mahāprabhu that grāmya-vyavahāre kahe paṇḍita satya kari māni (CC Madhya 20.100): that "In my relationship with my neighbors, they call 'paṇḍitjī' .'" He was brāhmaṇa. "So I accept it, 'Yes, I am paṇḍit.'" So what is the wrong? "The wrong is that I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am." (laughs) So ask anybody. Our Dr. Sukla is also . . . (chuckles) So ask any doctor, "What you are?" "Huh? I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa." This answer you'll get. "I'm American." Nobody will say ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Nobody will say. Nobody will say, because he does not know. So what is the value of this education if one does not know what he is? Therefore śāstra says parābhavaḥ. In ignorance, gross ignorance, anything we are doing, that is parābhava. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to save the people from this defeating position. We are trying . . . so far I have tried single-handed. And now the . . . a little pressure is felt even by some American politicians. Recently one American politician has remarked that "This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is just like epidemic. (laughs) And if we do not take any step, then within ten years they'll take our government." So the Communists in India, they are trying to defeat us in so many ways.

'Surendra Kumar Saigal:' We have seen the articles in Blitz.

Prabhupāda: Because they are also afraid. Because the Communist movement means godlessness. And our movement is, "Here is God." There is no blind faith. "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa! You take His name, you take His address—everything." Practical. So that is a great cause of fear for these Communists. So they are against us. So now I shall request the śreṣṭhas, those who are leading persons in India, they should join this movement, take it seriously. It is not a bogus movement. It is a scientific movement. And we have so many books. Now, at the present moment, we have got eighty-four books. So that is my request, that people should come forward. (whispering in background) They should come forward and take seriously this movement. And we have got our places. In Bombay we have got big place. In Vṛndāvana we have got big place. In Nadia we have got big place. At least elderly gentlemen like you, now you should retire from family life and leave in charge of the grown-up boys. You should take seriously, for India's interest, for everyone's interest, but as we want . . .

We should not keep people in darkness. That is very risky. Very risky. But you may be very proud that, "I am this, I am that. I have to . . ." but you are after all under the control of the laws of nature. That you cannot avoid. You may be falsely proud, but you have to abide by it. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not so easy. Actually, nature's law, you can eat once chatak. If you eat little more than that, then there is indigestion immediately—you have to go to the doctor. So what is your independence? You cannot violate a little portion of the laws of nature. So many. In every step. As soon as you violate, immediately there is punishment. And still, we are declaring independence. Asatyam. (aside) What is that? Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Find out. Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). Asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te jagad ahur anīśvaram. "There is no God." Why you say there is no . . .? You are under control. There is a controller—otherwise, how you are under control? So this foolishness must be stopped in order to make them happy, really happy. Otherwise, if they are kept into ignorance and things go on like this, then the future picture is very gloomy. It has already become gloomy, and future is very, very gloomy.

So everyone should come forward, take this movement seriously, and at least, we are Indians, we should take care of Indians. We should not keep people in ignorance. That is not civilization. That is not civilization. Civilization means tamasi mā jyotir gama: come to the light. Don't keep yourself in darkness. That is not civilization. That . . . this civilization is keeping people in darkness. That is very risky. So we should take it very seriously and push this movement very scientifically, soberly, and people will be benefited.

Any question?

Indian man (son of Surendra Kumar): What are the . . . our Prime Minister's view regarding this movement?

Prabhupāda: So far I know, she likes this movement. But she is also not independent.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' That's true. Nobody is independent. Even she.

Prabhupāda: Recently, one of my students met the Home Minister. He said: "Yes, this movement should be spread all over the world." They are appreciating. But there are different parties, different circumstances. Our four items—no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling—so I think they are taking some steps on this ground. They are trying to stop cow-killing.

Indian man (2): Yes, they have already banned cow-killing.

Prabhupāda: And they are going to take steps for intoxication.

Indian man (2): Stopping intoxication and actually, these are the things which can build up the character of the nation and. . .

Prabhupāda:No!no! We are already intoxicated in material existence, and if more intoxication is there, then very . . .

Indian man (2): Yes. From bad to worse.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this civilization, this education is simply misleading. Simply misleading. There is no enlightenment of this question, "What I am?" No. No answer.

'Surendra Kumar:' Mahārāja, now we have present here some Life Members of ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) Life Members should be active Life Members. (laughter) Yes. Aur isme kuch sandeh hai toh puchiye. (And if there is any doubt about this then ask.) If there is any doubt.

'Surendra Kumar:' Mahārāja, the one who brought ISKCON to this house is that boy, son of my . . . who became first Life Member of ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: Oh, very intelligent.

Indian man (2): Subodh.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' His name is Subodha and which means the understanding.

Prabhupāda: Very intelligent. Subodha means . . .

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Good Understanding.

Prabhupada: Just, just I was talking of abodh.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Yes.

Indian man (2): Abodh. (laughter)

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Yes. So far you had been mentioning . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, abodha-jāto.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Yes, abodha-jāto and he is already subodha.

Prabhupāda: He is subodha.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' He knows his . . . (indistinct) . . . evaṁ budhe paraṁ buddha.

'Surendra Kumar:' You were suggesting to me that . . .

Prabhupāda: Parābhavaḥ. One who is abodha, he is parābhava.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Parābhava, defeated.

Prabhupāda: Defeat. And one is subodha, he is victory. So human life is meant for becoming subhodha, not abodha. But they are keeping abodha. This is the difficulty. Everyone is abodha.

Indian man (2): Mahārāja, I had a gentleman talking to me who is very intimate with Sanjay Gandhi. And he was telling me that Sanjay Gandhi very forcefully hinted, "Why are you people not working now? Why is the Arya-samaj silent? Why the other powerful sects and movements are not working? Why have you taken this country into the hands of Muslims?" These were his words. "Why do you want that the country should depend, or the government should depend, on the support of Muslims? Where are you? What are you doing? Why don't you come up?"

Indian man: But our government is supporting them all right, you see.

'Surendra Kumar:' Swami Mahārāja said that they are forces which, when if you want to keep yourself in power, you have to sometimes bend and this . . .

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' That's true.

Prabhupāda: Apart from government, the first thing is that the . . . sometimes we say "Rāma-rājya." The Rāma-rājya means . . . there is a verse in Bhāgavatam that when Lord Rāmacandra took charge of the . . . after coming back from the forest, His brother Bhārata surrendered and He took charge of the kingdom. So the residents, the subjects, are described as a varṇāśrama guṇānvitā.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Varnāśrama gunan . . .?

Prabhupāda: Guṇānvitā. So Rāma-rājya can be established. And it is said there that Lord Rāmacandra was maintaining the kingdom, taking the citizens as His own son. Pitṛvat rāma. It is said there. Pitṛvat. As the father of the family takes charge of the children very nicely, it is the government's duty to become the sensible father of the citizens. And the citizens should be qualified following the institution of varṇāśrama. Then there will be Rāma-rājya.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' That's the most scientific understanding . . .

'Surendra Kumar:' No. Prabhupāda had rightly said in one of the meetings in Delhi that you people try to follow people who are in power. If Indira Gandhi were to do mālā just like this, I'm sure millions of people in India would be doing mālā like this. So she's doing that.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21).

'Surendra Kumar:' "But you will not follow me because I have no political power; therefore you have not . . ." Aise bhi mala japo, kyun apne idhar udhar ki baat sohte ho. Bhagvan ka naam lo wo nahi karega. Lekin Indraji karne lagenge Sanjay gandhi karne lage, toh sab log ke gale me mala daal ne lagenge aur wo karne lagenge. That is why we chant. Why you are thinking of talks of here and there. Take names of lord that you will not do. But if Indraji and Sanjay Gandhi will do then everybody will put flower garlands on their neck and then they will follow.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Yatha Raja tatha praja.

'Surendra Kumar:' He is my eldest grandson. Aur ye Sanadar me . . .(indistinct) (And in Sanadar he is . . . (indistinct))

Prabhupāda: He is subhoda or abodha. (laughter)

'Surendra Kumar:' No, he is Suvrata, Suvrata.

Prabhupāda: Suvrata . . . Kya arth hota hai batao? (What is the meaning of Suvrata, tell me?)

'Surendra Kumar:' Please describe God. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Do you know what is God? Do you know?

'Surendra Kumar:' Do you know what is God or not?

Suvrata: I want to know.

'Surendra Kumar:' I want to know.

Prabhupāda: Do you know the meaning of the God?

Suvrata: No.

Then how you are asking what is God? If I say something wrong, how you'll understand? If you do not know . . . suppose you go to purchase something, "Give me gold," and if he gives you iron, then what you'll do? If you do not know what is God, gold. You must know first of all what is God. Then you ask. If you do not know, then you'll be cheated. That is going on. That is going on.

'Surendra Kumar:' Mahārāja, but there must be somebody to say that, "This is gold and this is iron."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that means requires a superior education.

'Surendra Kumar:' Superior education.

Prabhupada: Yes. The father, mother should be responsible . . .

'Surendra Kumar:' So who can be a greater than your Divine Grace?

Prabhupāda: No, no. The father, father . . . the first thing is that why do you send your sons to the school? It is the duty that he should know. So if the father is a rascal, then how the son can be subodha? (laughter) Therefore the śāstra says that unless you can train your son to overcome this process of birth, death, old . . . don't become a father. You remain a rascal. Don't beget children. This is contraception. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18). The real problem is mṛtyu. But they have taken it that, "It is ordinary thing." But nobody wants to die. The education is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). But who knows that I do not die after the destruction of the body? Then why I am put into this position that I have to change this body, I have to die? This question does not arise. Therefore they're abodha. The instruction is, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). There is no inquiry that, "If I'm not born, why I am born in this body?" This is question. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. "If I am not subjected to death, then why I am dying?" This question does not arise at all. Therefore everyone is abodha-jāto. Nobody is subodha. Everyone is abodha. The problem is there, but he does not inquire.

Indian lady (daughter of Surendra Kumar): Excuse me. Mahārāja, don't you think it's high time that some of our Indian philosophy or Indian religion, some classes should be started in schools like they used to have and missionaries used to have scripture classes in schools. There should be in all the schools, I mean, classes on our own religion instead of learning somebody else's.

Prabhupāda: It is not only . . . when we say that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā . . . (BG 2.13), so as this boy, he was a child, now he has become a boy, then after few years he'll become a young man, and then he'll become middle-aged man, then he'll become old man—so this is not "Our religion," "Your religion." This is fact, scientific. When Bhagavad-gītā says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, that is not meant for the so-called Hindus. It is meant for the Muslim, meant for the Christian, everyone. It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. That they describe. But religion is also not a blind faith. Religion means the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law means the order of the state. Similarly, religion means the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know what is God, what is order, then where is religion? It is all bogus.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' What my sister was saying was that most of the parents do not understand.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' How they should bring up their progeny.

Prabhupāda: Then at least they . . .

Daughter of 'Surendra Kumar:' Children should have . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupada: At least, the children should be . . . therefore I'm starting that gurukula in Vṛndāvana. So you come, you manage that, take the ideas, make your children . . . whatever mistake is done is done. Now why the mistake should continue? Rectify it.

Indian man: Swamiji isme ek fark ye padta hai nah, agar hum apne aap karte hai toh secularism mai nahi aata hai. (Swamiji, the difference it makes is that if we do that, then it doesn't come under secularism.)

Prabhupāda: Then kick out secularism. Kick out secularism.

Indian man: Wo scientific nahi hai. (It is not scientific.)

Prabhupada: Science. It is science.

Indian man: Science is nothing. What is God, what is nature, what is soul.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' You don't give it the name of one particular way. You simply deal it with the basic idea of transforming the human . . .

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. When a child becomes a boy, there is no question of secularism. It is science. It is fact. Can you by secularism stop a child growing to become a boy? When I was explaining in South Africa, this thing, one Arya-samaji friend, he criticized me, that "Why you are bringing Hindu ideas?" So I said: "Is it Hindu ideas? A child grows to become a boy. It is Hindu idea? Why you are so fool you're calling Hindu idea?" A child grows to become a boy. This is science.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' The law of nature.

Prabhupada: Yes.

''''Dr. Shaligram Shukla:'''' Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir (BG 2.13). Naturally . . .

Prabhupāda: But because it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, they take it Hindu idea. This is nonsense.

Indian man: Our approach is so wrong that people take it as . . .

Prabhupāda: Immediately we can pass in a sectarian . . .

Daughter of 'Surendra Kumar:' That is why it is necessary to have this as a part of social studies like you have other subjects in schools. If it is not given any more . . .

Prabhupāda: But then, as soon as you say "Bhagavad-gītā," immediately, "Hindu."

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' What sister wants to know is that how can we add in innumerable, rather, uncountless schools and colleges? The management will be most willing, I mean, the progressive management will be most willing to introduce classes where such laws of nature and such . . . on scientific line, without giving it a Hindu or religious name. That should be taught. A curriculum should be drawn up. Because we control some of the schools.

Prabhupāda: That is my program. I am writing all book just only on this point, therefore they are coming. Otherwise, what is the use? They were Christians and Jews. What is the use of becoming Hindus?

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' Yes.

Prabhupada: So anyone wants to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they can understand easily if he joins, Hare Kṛṣṇa, chant. That is all right. If he wants to understand scientifically, there are eighty-four books. Come on. Which way you want?

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' No. What we want is a very simple curriculum. Elementary type.

Prabhupāda: Simple, this is simple curriculum.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' So that they gradually, as a child grows into adolescence, when his intelligence also grows, his knowledge also grows. And then we give him still more deeper knowledge of the various things which we have been teaching on elementary basis. And then still deeper. Just like this.

Prabhupāda: Just like this child, this boy, inquired, "What is God?" So he can be instructed that, "God is the supreme controller, just like your father is your controller." He'll accept this. Can you go against your father's will? He says no. He'll say, naturally.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' Sun rahe tum? (Are you listening?) . . . how he's spreading it.

Prabhupāda: So, he'll understand English? He's angrej? (laughter) He looks like angrej.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' Maharaj hindi bhi bahut achi samjhta hai. (Mahārāja, he also understands Hindi very well.)

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' Mahabharata, Ramayana sab padliya isne. (He reads Mahābhārata, Rāmāyaṇa etc.)

Prabhupāda: Just like at home you are controlled by your parents. Is it not? You like to obey them?

Son of 'Surendra Kumar:' (to Suvrata) You like to obey them, or sometimes you don't want to obey them?

Prabhupāda: Similarly, you take the whole world as a big family. So there must be somebody father and controller. Otherwise, how it is being conducted? That is God, the supreme controller. Just like in your family the father is the controller, similarly, you take it in wide scale, broader scale, there must be somebody father. Therefore the Christians, they take it, "O Father, give us our daily bread." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is also confirmed, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

(BG 14.4)

(break) Then he decided, "Yes, I shall fight." Kṛṣṇa inquired from him, "Now I have instructed you. Now, whatever you like you can do. And what is your decision?" Then he clearly said, "Yes, my decision is there. I'll fight." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "As You advise, I understand that You want this fighting." So Vaiṣṇava means for the sake of Kṛṣṇa he can do anything. Not that he is lazy fellow, showing, "I have become very big Vaiṣṇava. Let me sleep under the name of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is not Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava must be very busy, always awaiting the order of the . . . ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). "What is Kṛṣṇa's order? What does He want?" and He is ready. Just like a servant is always ready to receive the order of the master. That is faithful servant. That is real servant and not that at night duty he is sleeping somewhere. No. That is not faithful servant. Faithful servant means always alert. And that is bhakti. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam bhaktir uttama (CC Madhya 19.167). Simply one has to execute ānukūlyena, how Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. This is bhakti.

So the Hanumān is example. Hanumān was ordered to bring some medicine from some mountain. And he was a monkey, he was animal, he did not know how to pick up it—"Take the whole mountain. Execute the order. And then Rāmacandra and Lakṣmana, They'll find out what is that medicine." So this is Vaiṣṇava. In one's own capacity he should give the best service to the Lord and that is bhakti. Bhakti is not laziness. If somebody thinks that, "The bhaktas are lazy fellows, and they are out of the worldly activity," that is mistake. It is mistake. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam. Kṛṣṇa says personally, yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat tapasyasi yat kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam (BG 9.27): "Come on! Do it for Me." That is bhakti. He does not say that "You become a lazy fellow. Give up your occupational duty and sleep and snore, and become a great devotee." No. He never says. He says that "You are attached to this kind of work. All right, do it, but the result you give Me," that is bhakti. "Arjuna, you are a military man. All right, I ask you to fight. You become a fighter and become My devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3). Just see. What is that? He was not chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. But Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: "You are very dear friend and My devotee." Did he go on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra . . . so not that imitation. Of course, ultimate is always be absorbed in glorifying the Lord. But not in the beginning. In the beginning you must work very hard; you come to the stage of pure devotional platform. Then you can fully engage yourself meditation or chanting. Not in the beginning. In the beginning you should be very expert and active. That is wanted. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . udilo, from the early in the morning, active. "Come on, chant. Come with Me so that others will see. If we make a party chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so in the beginning they may be disturbed because they have been accustomed to sleep up to nine o'clock, but as they will hear, gradually they'll become purified. They'll receive it."

So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. He practically did it, and He asked everyone to do it. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). "This is My order." He could remain a big devotee at His home. He was very popular in Navadvīpa, even when He was twenty years old. But still, He took sannyāsa and went door to door, village to village, town to town in India, and He left His order, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma: "All over the world, as many towns and villages are there, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be . . ." (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). Not that "We are big, big gosvāmīs and bābājīs. We do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They say that "We do not go out of . . ." You are imitating them. (chuckles) Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi-grāma. And they have become very big Vaiṣṇava: "No, I don't go beyond the limits of Vṛndāvana." What is this nonsense? Did Caitanya Mahāprabhu say like that, that "You do not go beyond the limits . . ."? A devotee, wherever he is, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Tīrtha-kurvanti tīrthāni (SB 1.13.10). A devotee, a pure devotee, can make any hell a tīrtha, a holy place. That is devotee. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni. That was Bhagīratha. Gaṅgā was hesitating, mother Gaṅgā, that "I shall go to the material world. People will take . . . all sinful men will take bathing, and I'll be overloaded with sin. Then how I shall get out of this sinful, accumulation of sins?" So the Bhagīratha said, "My mother, don't hesitate. When a holy man will take bath in your water, then all the sins he will assimilate." Then she agreed, "Yes. That's all right" So if we become holy man, actually, then immune. There is no difference. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. These are bogus that, "I do not go out of Vṛndāvana." They are making Vṛndāvana limited. Vṛndāvana is not limited. Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, wherever there is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple, that is Vṛndāvana. That is Vṛndāvana. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He, once only, He went to Vṛndāvana. Does it mean He was not in Vṛndāvana?

So this is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, that preaching must go on in hell and heaven. We should be very much expert and follow the instruction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the simple instructions. Mukunda mādhava yādava hari bolena bolo re vadana bori. Simply chant the holy names of Lord, mukunda mādhava yādava. This is Caitanya . . . rise early in the morning. You go preach, and work hard, day and night, and that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . this song indicates. That's all.

Thank you.

Devotees: Jaya. (offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ye jagah toh bahut hai, idhar ek mandir banayenge. (This place is very big. Here we will make a temple.)

'Surendra Kumar:' Abhi toh urban ceiling act me, wo isme se zameen lena chahte hai. (Now in the urban ceiling act, they want to take a piece of land from this)

Prabhupada: Toh hum log ko de dijiye, mandir banalenge. Bahut aadmi de raha hai, bahut aadmi. (Then you give it to us and we will construct a temple. Many people are giving. Many people . . .) They are offering their . . . we have received one letter, telegram, from one gentleman. What is his name? Patel? Bhogilal Patel. He's very rich man. So I was sometimes guest in his house. He is very friendly. He comes to see me in Bombay. Old man. He is older than me, one or two years. But he has sent me one telegram, "Swāmījī, take this land, one hundred acres of land in Ahmedabad."

'Surendra Kumar:' In . . .?

Prabhupāda: Ahmedabad.

'Surendra Kumar:' Ahmedabad.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So . . . there are so many. One gentleman has offered land in Mahabaleshwar.

'Surendra Kumar:' Mahabaleshwar.

Prabhupada: This is very costly place.

'Surendra Kumar:' Very costly place and very nice place.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Very nice. And wherefrom other offers we have got?

Haṁsadūta: Hyderabad we have.

Prabhupāda: Hyderabad he has already . . . that is six hundred acres of land. What is the name of that place? Do you remember?

Haṁsadūta: Where? Hyderabad? No. We called it New Naimiṣāraṇya.

Prabhupāda: No, we have named New Naimiṣāraṇya. A very nice place.

'Surendra Kumar:' You'll get a lot of offers. And as you rightly said that these Vaiṣṇavas, they want to become maṭha-deśas, they want to become like kings. They don't want to leave their empire and go out, working hard like you and spreading the message of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our mission.

'Surendra Kumar:' That is the right attitude. Even if there is one bhakta, there is Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakta will create Vṛndāvana. Kṛṣṇa says, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭha (Padma Purāṇa): "I do not stay in Vaikuṇṭha." Nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu. "Neither I stay at the heart, core of the heart of the yogīs." Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktāḥ. "When My pure devotee chants the glories of My . . . I immediately stay there. I immediately stay." It's not that He is packed up in some place. He's all-pervading. Vasudeva. Vāsudeva. Therefore His name is Vāsudeva. Vāsudeva. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). He's everywhere. Electricity is everywhere. Only one who knows how to take the electricity . . . so Caitanya Mahāprabhu's preaching and teaching, they're perfect. You have to follow. Then our life will be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. That is not wanted. Ye log manufacture kiya, ye hindu samdra ka par jaane se hi ekdum . . . (indistinct) hai na? And these people manufactured that this hindu as he crossed the ocean has become fallen. Isn't it?

'Surendra Kumar:' (indistinct) . . . Has fallen. Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126). Bas toh samudra paar kaise nahi hoga? Ye sab chal raha hai. (But then how this ocean will not be crossed. These things are going on.) Foolish theories. Just see. As soon as you cross over the Bay of Bengal or Indian Ocean, you'll become immediately fallen.

'Surendra Kumar:' You become an outcaste. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: That's all. Our Madan Mohan Malaviya, he was invited Round Table conference. He took so much Ganges earth. He was mixing that Ganges earth with water. He's going for political purposes, and showing a . . . what is called? Hobby. This is not that. Now this movement is there, and unless we do it very sincerely and vigorously, it cannot be pushed on. Dekhiye na, Vrindaban me jitna goswami hai. (Now see in Vṛndāvana there are many goswamis.)

'Surendra Kumar:' Ji. (Yes.)

Prabhupada: Wo sab combine ho karke. bhi, ye humara koi pride ka baat nahi. Jo kaam humne kiya hai, wo nahi kar sakte. (Even if they combine. This is nothing related to my pride. But whatever work i have done they cannot do.)

'Surendra Kumar:' Nahi kar sakte. Maharaaj, kitne honge apne ab ye disciples antardeshiye. (They cannot do. Mahārāja! How many disciples might be there all over the world.)

Prabhupada: Initiated hoga toh koi 10,000. Dekhiye is tarah se hai sab. (If initiated then 10,000. See this is like this . . .)

'Surendra Kumar:' Initiated dus hazaar. (Initiated 10,000.)

Prabhupada: Aur ye sab followers log hai. Jo kitaab par rahe hai, ye jo daily 5 lakhs 6 lakhs jo kitaab beek raha hai, koi padta hai nahi koi . . . (indistinct). Padta hai hum ko malum hai. (And like this there are many followers. Some are reading books daily five lakhs, six lakhs Books are selling somebody studies or comes and reads on street. I know that they study.)

'Surendra Kumar:' Life member kitne hai humare? (There are how many Life Members.)

Prabhupada: Life members toh hum idhar hi kiya tha. (Life Member cultivation I have done here.)

'Surendra Kumar:' Udhar nahi kiye? (There you haven't done.)

Prabhupada: No. . . . Life Member. We have Life Member?

Dhanañjaya: In London. London's about fifteen hundred.

Haṁsadūta: Where? In London, Amsterdam and Montreal. We're making Life Members everywhere now.

Dhanañjaya: Africa.

Indian man: How many Life Members in India? Must have at least ten thousand.

Prabhupada: No.

Indian man: Target must be 10,000.

Prabhupāda: No. Indian, everyone should become a Life Member.

'Surendra Kumar:' Certainly. Everybody like us are there with devotees.

Prabhupāda: And it is India's duty that everyone should take up such a cultural movement. That is India's glory. I have given one statement, I do not know whether it is published. The, some of the places, they are against me. So where is that copy? Have you got that copy?

Haṁsadūta: I don't know which . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm. I've given one statement . . .

'Surendra Kumar:' Mahārāja, have you sent that reply to that questionnaire which was sent to you from Bhavan's Journal? Bhavan's Journal sent you a questionnaire.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have sent that answer. Eighty-four pages. For twenty-one questions I have answered eighty-four pages.

'Surendra Kumar:' I think in Delhi you must call a press conference.

Prabhupāda: Aadmi itna dull hogaya, ye sab baat samajhta hi nahi. Samajhta hai, still leta nahi. (People have become so dull that they do not understand these talks. They understand still . . .)

'Surendra Kumar:' Samajhta hai, lekin political jab tak ke yo usko politically ve kar leta, usko samjhne ki koshis nahi karta. (They understand but until and unless the politician accept, they don't want to understand.) (break)

Prabhupada: . . . by seeing him, if we remember Kṛṣṇa, he is Vaiṣṇava. He never said that you must be born in a brāhmaṇa family or . . . no. If by seeing him only one remembers Kṛṣṇa, then that person is Vaiṣṇava.

Dhanañjaya: So couldn't that point be expressed to the government, somehow?

Prabhupāda: Well, emergency government. (laughs) They can do anything immediately.

'Surendra Kumar:' Sir, these nationalities, I mean . . . (break) (end)