760119 - Conversation - Mayapur

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760119R1-MAYAPUR - January 19, 1976 - 51.33 Minutes

Prabhupāda: The stricture of nature's law, that is science. Is it not? Scientific effort. They will never be able to do so, but still, they are . . . to stop death, birth, death, old age, is very major problem, but even in small things you cannot do anything. Everywhere you are dependent. And still, they are very much proud that they are advancing in scientific knowledge so that they can overcome the stringent laws of nature and so on, so on. Durāśaya. It is called durāśaya, hope which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Durāśaya. Śāstra, Bhāgavata, says, durāśaya. This is their foolishness. They are expecting something which will never be fulfilled. Therefore śāstra says durāśaya. Now what they are doing about the moon planet?

Harikeśa: They've forgotten about it.

Sudāmā: Now they're trying for Mars.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Hele dāntavān keuṭe. A man was trying to capture snake. So there are snakes, hele. There are many snakes; they have no poison, especially the water snake, the hele. So hele dāntavān keuṭe. Keuṭe means cobra. So one cannot capture the poisonless snake, and he is attempting to capture cobra. So they could not go to the moon planet, which is only 1,600,000 miles above the sun, and they are going to Venus, which is far, far away, still. How many miles the Venus is situated? They have committed some mistake.

Harikeśa: Yes. Well, they say here it's 600,000 yojanas, which makes 48,000,000 miles—no—480,000,000 miles above the sun.

Prabhupāda: So they cannot reach sun . . . they are trying to go above the sun. (someone enters) Asun. Basun. (Please come. Sit down.)

Indian guest: Hare Krsna.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. Basun. Kothyeke elen? (Sit down. Where are you from?)

Indian guest: Ami . . . ei (I am . . . this) . . . (indistinct) (break) It is giving a quotation from the Vedas. How to act on Vedic principles, that is called smṛti. Sometimes the original law is explained by one lawyer in detail. So that detailed explanation is like smṛti, and the original law is śruti. In that we have to bathe. Smṛti means which is explaining śruti to understand easily.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we should never think that smṛti is an interpretation.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It is not inter . . . it is explanation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like sometimes the smārtas, they argue that if you quote smṛti, it is not as good as śruti.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But smṛti . . . just like the Māyāvādīs. They do not accept, because their interpretation of Veda is different.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So they say that smṛti is an interpretation.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't accept Bhagavad-gītā, many of them.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what is our answer to such persons?

Prabhupāda: We have got our own ācāryas. If you don't accept, I don't accept you. That is my . . . what can be done?

Harikeśa: Madhvācārya made a commentary on the Gītā where he quoted a Sanskrit verse.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: He quoted a Vedic verse for every Bhagavad-gītā verse to prove that Bhagavad-gītā is śruti.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Madhvācārya?

Harikeśa: Or somebody like that.

Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya.

Harikeśa: Who?

Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has quoted.

Harikeśa: Rāmānujācārya.

Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya has given quotation from śruti for every verse of Bhagavad-gītā.

(pause) (devotee enters and offers obeisances)

Prabhupāda: So read from the . . .

Bhavānanda: It starts off with big print: "Ācāryadeva Tridandi Swami Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Mahārāja. All learned men are aware that in the dark days of India when the Hindu religion was in great danger . . ."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) This is nonsense.

Bhavānanda: ". . . our Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born at Śrī Māyāpur, destined to remove the dark clouds which had overshadowed true religious thinking by traveling alone on foot throughout the length and breadth of India. Preaching His gospel of love, He brought about a religious upheaval which put an end to all religious conflicts and suicidal vociferous tendencies. The benign influence of His love philosophy made the whole of India a spiritually united cultural domain. Soul-enrapturing kīrtana music was organized from one end of the country to the other. A neo-humanism based on love regarded as the highest objective of human existence held sway. The difference between man and man was forgotten, and the fundamental unity of human nature and human destiny was stressed upon. But in the early nineteenth century, true religion was at a very low ebb due to lack of proper publicity of literature and also for want of great ācāryas to propagate the cults in their true aspect. It was a dark period for the Caitanya or Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism when it fell from its highest transcendentalism to the lowest possible degradation because of so many abuses and evil practices which crept into it through plenty of pseudo-followers. Vaiṣṇavism was almost abandoned by the educated section of people. Its literature was hardly read. Kīrtana was looked upon not as a form of prayer but as a means of gratification by people of loose morals. Most of the Vaiṣṇava followers of the period lost their high standard of morality, their loving aestheticism, their intellectual superiority and devotional fervor, which were the main characteristics of the previous masters. The influx of Western ideas came in, and English educated people fell into the hands of Christians. Fortunately, at that time, we got a great Vaiṣṇava savant and scholar, Ṭhākura Kedāranātha Bhaktivinoda, who wrote widely and successfully created an interest among the educated public in Vaiṣṇava religion and literature. His discovery of Śrīdhāma Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, which was so long hidden from the public eye, gave a new impetus to its propagation. The age of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism set in. Thereafter, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura took hold of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism with a vow to propagate it in its true perspective, even as it was practiced with unparalleled and unprecedented transcendentalism by Śrī Rūpa and Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmīs, followers of Śrī Caitanya. In proper time, he got a great personality who readily shouldered the . . ."

Prabhupāda: Just see now: "He got a great personality." He is that personality. He'll also prove that.

Bhavānanda: ". . . who shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura. That great personality is President Ācāryadeva, His Holiness Śrī Śrīmad Bhaktivilāsa . . ."

Prabhupāda: But you . . . jaya morena apne morol. This great personality, why he is not accepted by other disciples? How he becames a great personality?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. If one proclaims himself to be the king and no one . . .

Prabhupāda: No one accepts him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of king?

Prabhupāda: That is called in Bengali, jaya mane apna morol. Morol means the leader of the society, of the village. Here there are morol. So in the village nobody cares for him, and he declares that, "I am morol."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That person is insane.

Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for him, and he is thinking that, "Great personality." Where is his greatness? Who knows him? Just see. So he is making a plan to declare himself a great personality.

Bhavānanda: It goes on to explain why he is such a great personality.

Prabhupāda: So why explain? If he is great personality, everyone should know. Why he is trying to explain? What is the use of explanation? If a great personality is unknown, and he has to be known by explanatory notes, then how he is great personality?

Bhavānanda: Just like the President of the United States. He doesn't have to say, "I am the President." Everyone knows.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Go on reading.

Bhavānanda: ". . . Tīrtha Mahārāja, who was then known as guru-preṣṭha, "Most dear to his guru," and also known to the disciples of Śrīla Sarasvatī Ṭhākura as Kuñjada, giver of shelter. In all the missionary works and the management of the maṭhas, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja was the right hand of his Gurudeva. By his constant, unstinted service rendered to Śrīla Prabhupāda, whose most intimate disciple he was, he almost became a counterpart of that great saint."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. This is not . . . "Counterpart." Jumping. Trying to equal . . .

Prabhupāda: So those who are not accepting him, so they are all fools.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is very bad, Prabhupāda. It says he wanted to be . . . he almost became counterpart. That means he is trying to become equal or superior to guru.

Prabhupāda: Superior.

Bhavānanda: In this first sentence, superior; that Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, his whole mission was dependent upon this great personality, Tīrtha Mahārāja. Not that Bhaktisiddhānta was a great personality, but that the great personality is Tīrtha Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: He has written like that?

Bhavānanda: He said: "In proper time he got a great personality who readily shouldered the burden of the mighty mission of Sarasvatī Ṭhākura." That's implying that he is the one responsible.

Prabhupāda: He says . . . his impression is like that. Then?

Bhavānanda: "In all preaching work, everybody felt the sober but encouraging hand of Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja. Śrīla Prabhupāda never did anything without consulting him first or without his consent. So all the desires for future work of Prabhupāda Śrīla Sarasvatī . . ."

Prabhupāda: He does not mention his name. He says . . . all right, go . . . his sannyāsī name is . . . all right. Then?

Bhavānanda: "All the desires for future work of Śrīla Prabhupāda Sarasvatī Ṭhākura used to come to the present ācāryadeva as an impulse first, which he translated into action at once. In spite of a hundred hindrances from so-called religionists with a vision of a future worldwide mission, Śrīla Prabhupāda established Śrī Caitanya Maṭha at Śrī Māyāpur, the birthplace of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, on the Phālguna Pūrṇimā day, the seventh March, 1918, which was a red-letter day in the history of theistic religious revival in this age. He started a countrywide movement to carry the message of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to every door. In a hectic manner, within a couple of years, he preached Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism throughout India and sent disciples to England, Germany, and other parts of Europe and Burma to preach the message of Śrī Caitanya and establish sixty-four branches under the name of Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭha throughout India and abroad, and a vast literature flowed through his versatile pen. The large number of publications in different languages and the vigorous missionary activities and door-to-door preaching by the sannyāsīs and brahmacārīs of the Maṭha, who held meetings in the remotest villages, duly spread Śrī Caitanya's teachings, which today are followed in every part of India. His songs are sung in chorus, and a great interest is created among the intelligentsia of India. After having become the president of the institution . . ." In this last paragraph, all of these activities of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, there is no mention of his name. His whole mission, there is actually no mention of his name, that he is the one who has done it. "After having become the president of the institution, Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja has been traveling throughout India and Pakistan preaching the devotional cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he has come in contact with many savants of present India who are all struck with reverent admiration for his deep knowledge of philosophy. Dr. Rādhākamal Mukherjee, vice- chancellor of Lucknow University, remarks, 'There is no more distinguished and erudite interpreter of Śrī Caitanya's Vaiṣṇava thought than His Holiness Śrīla Bhaktivilāsa Tīrtha Gosvāmī Mahārāja.' "

Prabhupāda: And what is Rādhākamal Mukherjee?

Bhavānanda: " 'He has been a prolific writer and commentator and has traveled and discoursed widely in different parts of India. His profound illuminative discourses have everywhere created a genuine interest in Vaiṣṇava philosophy and in the dynamic religious movement he represents.' There may not be any doubt among the well-informed people that the Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, with its branches, Śrī Gauḍīya Maṭhas, throughout India and abroad, have been propagating the greatest religion, which, from a realistic point of view, has helped to build up a true civilization. Today, due to the activities of Śrī Caitanya Maṭha, a spiritual thirst has been created, especially among the deep-thinking and educated people of the world, for people from all over the world are coming to this institution to learn and follow the great religion of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and to understand the practical Indian way of life. Today the headquarter extends over a mile, with beautiful temples, yet standing in an atmosphere of absorbing silence of meditation and worship, surrounded on all sides by emerald green paddy fields and the Ganges flowing hard by, far from the madding crowd's strife and strain. Māyāpur is now an enchanted place, the abode of peace. The atmosphere of the place is charming. The chanting of the holy name of Hari all day and night takes one to a celestial place."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't hear the chanting from their maṭha all day and night.

Bhavānanda: No, it's only from here. "It is more heavenly than heaven itself. It is the sacred Vṛndāvana of Bengal, hallowed by the dancing steps of the Lord, and its air is purified by His noble call to prayer. Whoever pays a visit to her will leave her with regret, and those who have not yet visited the place will carry their regrets unto death."

Prabhupāda: So he is making some propaganda that he is the . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, just like in the woods the jackal is always crying that he is the king, but who cares for him? What is his qualification?

Prabhupāda: So do we require to . . .? There is no use.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, our answer is all of these books.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our answer is twenty-four-hour kīrtana, prasādam distribution . . .

Prabhupāda: And you keep it very carefully in the file.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should answer him by our preaching, by our vigorous preaching.

Bhavānanda: Many people must be asking him, "What about this ISKCON maṭha?" That's why he is . . . it's driving him mad.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's speaking against us all the time. He never says anything good about us.

Prabhupāda: No, he is very envious about us.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I think now he must have come to the conclusion that there is no way to stop us, so he is thinking how he can . . . I have a hunch he is thinking how he can become connected in some way to get some benefit. That's why he is sending this man, this maṭha commander. Because he sees now there is no way he can stop us, so he is thinking, "How can I connect somehow with them? Because they have so much money, and they're going to be doing so many big things, I must establish a connection with them."

Prabhupāda: So he wants to establish connection with us and . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I think so.

Prabhupāda: . . . and describe that he has . . . just like Mādhava Mahārāja also attempted. This is the attempt. So, what we have to do in this connection? Let them do whatever nonsense they want. We shall do our own business. And we have no business to propagate that we are making . . . people already know us all over the world. So . . . but suppose if he makes an attempt to mix with us so that he can take advantage, his main policy is that we may go there. That is his . . . because if we do not go, then all their propaganda makes him not very important if we go there . . . if we do not go there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does he depend upon our going there to become important?

Prabhupāda: Because he is visualizing that by our propaganda throughout the whole world, people will come here. That he has already seen. And if we do not go there, then he becomes insignificant.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "If we don't" means if anyone from all over the world who comes . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally.

Bhavānanda: People are attracted by the Westerners coming to the maṭha. So if we're up at that maṭha, any of us, and then they say: "Just see." They say in Bengali, "Just see. They are coming. To see our Guru Mahārāja, they are coming."

Prabhupāda: That was the policy of Mādhava Mahārāja and Śrīdhara Mahārāja that, "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A real dream world they are living in.

Bhavānanda: Here they have even included our temple in their domain. "The headquarters extends for over a mile, with beautiful temples and paddy fields." When we put up our wall, then they will not be able to include us. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So what we should . . . the point is that no matter how much they press for any kind of mixing, our first point is, "You come here and visit us." And he'll never do that. Never do that. And we should not . . . we already invited him twice, so we don't have to give any more invitation. We should simply say verbally, "Let Tīrtha Mahārāja come here, as we have come so many times. Then we can speak about some kind of cooperation."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: I remember, Śrīla . . . you walked there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: From here you walked all the way . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Twice Prabhupāda has visited and personally requested, and he won't come here. And now . . . the thing is, now he might say: "If you give it to me in writing, I will come," but we'll say: "We have already personally come. Our spiritual master has come twice personally, and now you have to simply come. The invitation is already given. Now Tīrtha Mahārāja should come here." He'll never do that.

Bhavānanda: He'll never come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. So then that way we don't have to cooperate.

Prabhupāda: So this paper you keep, because these rascals, they may create some trouble.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of trouble?

Prabhupāda: Trouble like this, just like he was detained.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was that?

Bhavānanda: When I had that . . .

Prabhupāda: They can file some complaint inducing something.

Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, it was very interesting. Last night that complaint . . . my lawyer was this man who was sitting right here last night, this old man, Nandulal? He was my lawyer.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Bhavānanda: And he is the one who asked me, "Who is behind this case?" He asked me when we brought him from Krishnanagar. Because he is considered the best lawyer in Nadia, so we brought him in, and as we were leaving, after the first time I appeared, he said, "There is someone . . . this man is a farmer, laborer. Who has put him up to this?" He said, "There is someone behind this." So he asked me, "Was it Śrīdhara? Someone of the Gauḍīya Maṭha is behind this." But he came last night with them, this lawyer, old man. He came with them. So they were definitely the ones behind it.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhavānanda: They were definitely the ones behind that case. They somehow got their hands on that man and had him bring charges, even though the whole thing was dropped, you know.

Prabhupāda: Who was behind them?

Bhavānanda: Well, this man, he mentioned Śrīdhara Mahārāja's name. He said: "Some Gauḍīya Maṭha person."

Prabhupāda: He's a very good lawyer.

Bhavānanda: Yes. He's retired, but he's the most respected lawyer in Nadia. So he mentioned.

Prabhupāda: So he was in our side.

Bhavānanda: Yes. So he had mentioned, "Someone from the Gauḍīya Maṭha." He said: "You have many enemies." He said: "This man would not have thought of this kind of thing, to do this kind of thing. Someone had to . . ."

Prabhupāda: Who?

Bhavānanda: When I had to go to court to appear for having kidnapped that woman and her son, that I was holding the woman and her son by force—the husband placed charges—so this lawyer said, "That . . . he was a simple man, a little crazy. He wouldn't have done it or had the money to do it. Someone with some more intelligence, higher intelligence, is behind him, goading him on, telling him what to do." He asked who did I think it was? He mentioned Gauḍīya Maṭha, and he asked for any . . . did I know any particular personalities. I said: "No." He said: "What about Śrīdhara Swami?" I said I didn't know who it was. Someone.

Prabhupāda: So if Śrīdhara Swami was behind . . . maybe. There is no . . .

Bhavānanda: The point is that they can make so much trouble like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Small troubles.

Bhavānanda: Yes, little harassment. Then I even . . . of course, I don't know. I even question . . . just like that Lalita Bose, that whole incident which Jayapatākā told you about. Who knows? She is so influenced by . . . she is big, so-called Vaiṣṇava, and known in so many circles in Bengal. Who is influencing her? You know? Anyway, we simply stay on our land and develop our program. He is going mad.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhavānanda: He is becoming mad.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Bhavānanda: Tīrtha Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) How?

Bhavānanda: Well, the more he hears. Because he gets so many reports. So many people are coming here, and no one is going there. Even . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His mentality is becoming like Kaṁsa, I think. At every moment he is thinking, "This Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda . . ."

Prabhupāda: So who . . .? Somebody inquired him that "What is this called? So many people are coming." Huh?

Bhavānanda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He knows no one is coming there. Not very many more people are coming there than are here. Because most of the people come here . . .

Prabhupāda: That they are realizing that, "We are becoming insignificant gradually." That they are realizing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one goes to Mādhava Mahārāja's maṭha at all. The only maṭha that they still visit is that Śrī Caitanya Maṭha. And they have no money, so that place is becoming so dilapidated that no one is going there either. And there's no life there. There's no young people. There are no . . .

Prabhupāda: No, how they can? They cannot feed them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were speaking this morning, Bhavānanda Mahārāja and myself, that we were wondering if we could make like . . . you know, like so many people come here to eat prasādam. On the weekends, at least two to three thousand people come. So we were wondering whether it would be proper to make some kind of propaganda that, "If anyone wants to enroll their children here, their young boys in our gurukula, that they can . . ."

Prabhupāda: So a similar counterpart leaflet you should that, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness, world organization, established by His Divine Grace, and anyone can come here and take foodstuff. We have got arrangement," like this. In suitable words you write and issue another pamphlet.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali.

Prabhupāda: In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way, that, "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he . . ." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: List of the temples.

Prabhupāda: Yes, temples. And "He is the ācārya of the present Gauḍīya-sampradāya."

Bhavānanda: If we simply state the facts, there is no need for us to subtly infer or to exaggerate, because your activities are so glorious that . . .

Prabhupāda: And invite anyone who is interested to become devotee. We shall provide place, food, education to the children. In this way make another statement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm just wondering . . . I was thinking that whether we . . .

Prabhupāda: Without touching them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is . . . of course, we'll do this also. What about, like, all of these people coming? This is my point, that so many poor people are coming here. Practically they don't even have enough money to take care of their children properly. So whether we can make some verbal announcements, and whether we can set up a little table at the prasādam pavilion that, "Anyone who would like to enroll their sons in our school can do so"? Because many of these people can't take care of their children properly. I'm thinking when they see our boys they may want to give their sons.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they will give.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is that a good program?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can get many . . . I think we could get many, many men that way.

Prabhupāda: The children, they are enjoying. In the morning they are enjoying. That is wanted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they're in ecstasy.

Bhavānanda: All day they enjoy. When they are sweeping the road, they don't know that there's difference between work and play.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Bhavānanda: To them, sweeping the road is their play. They love it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These children are much more hard working than the children in America. Like these few American boys that are here, they cannot compare with these Bengali boys.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their service attitude is much, much better. I think we should . . .

Prabhupāda: By association they will be also.

Bhavānanda: Yes, they have also improved.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jagaman has.

Bhavānanda: Jagaman is wonderful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He works very hard. So I think we should try to get as many of these young boys as we can. We should use the facility of this prasādam distribution.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that whether we should . . . this pamphlet, I don't think it has got any value.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has no value, Prabhupāda. What we should do is build this temple. If we just build this temple . . . this is my point. Let us build this temple immediately. Once this temple is built, everything is finished. All the glowworms are completely extinguished. There will be nothing left. They can do anything they want, and nothing will matter. If they have a 350-story building . . . 350-foot building with escalators, with huge compounds, then everything is ended.

Prabhupāda: So do like that, like America.

Bhavānanda: He can come here and stand outside and scream, "I am the ācārya-deva." Just like in America so many people are saying: "I am Napoleon." No one . . .

Prabhupāda: That everyone says. That is not . . .

Bhavānanda: We have to build this temple, because . . .

Prabhupāda: So make something like American which is wonderful for the world. So you are Americans. You must do something.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we build this temple with escalators and the people go in the temple and they go up the escalator . . .

Harikeśa: They'll never come back.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . do you think that they're going to then go down the road to go into Śrī Caitanya Maṭha? Why would . . . what is the point of it after doing something like that? They'll never go.

Prabhupāda: And if you can arrange some . . . what is called, that? This heliocopter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Helicopter.

Prabhupāda: Bringing our men from Dum Dum airport to our roof.

Bhavānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There are at least four roofs like this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. The people will see. All the pilgrims will see. Like the demigods flying in.

Prabhupāda: At least we can make a show—it is coming twice in a day and going twice in a day. And they will see that, "Oh, so many people are coming."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you have to . . . the thing is, we're simply waiting for your go-ahead, because unless we get the land and we can begin, we can't start this.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa has sent him. Let him come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We shouldn't delay. If we . . . this is a little pamphlet. If we issue a counter pamphlet, it's not . . . I don't think it's such an important thing. The thing to do is to do something . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, practical.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . so significant that this becomes useless. Not that we issue another thing of this nature.

Harikeśa: This is already useless.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I mean, what is the use of issuing another piece of paper against this paper? Let us make a skyscraper temple; then they can think what will be the comparison between this . . .

Bhavānanda: On every level. Even the people this invitation was issued to. But they come, and when they come on Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura's appearance day, they all come down the road to here to visit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really.

Bhavānanda: Even he gives off so much energy inviting this one and that one, they all come. They all want to come down the road. They at least come down for darśana here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They do?

Bhavānanda: Yes, they have to. They've all been here. They all know it. They come with different personalities, different friends . . . in Krishnanagar, we are like the cinema in terms of entertainment. As soon as any man, any official, government official, his friends come from Calcutta, immediately they get in one of their government jeeps and they drive out here and come to see the ISKCON Maṭha, Māyāpur Chandrodaya Mandir. Immediately. So many men, they come all the time with their friends from Calcutta. Same thing in Navadvīpa. They come for an evening's . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: Fully satisfied. The woman puts on her sārī, the man dresses up in his kurtā . . .

Prabhupāda: So our arrangement should be to give them some prasadam, very nice treatment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've got to do this. We've got to do this.

Prabhupāda: And if important man should write something in the visitor's book . . . reception.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There should be a reception, proper receptionist.

Prabhupāda: So where the reception?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will sit?

Bhavānanda: We'll make some arrangement.

Prabhupāda: Make it immediately. Reception.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Nitāicānda is really first class.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is very good.

Prabhupāda: Nitāicānda plus somebody very educated should be there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about that . . . who do we have like that that speaks Bengali?

Bhavānanda: Subhaga. Oh, they love Subhaga. He preaches in the temple at the book table during the busy hours. So many people buy books, and all interested. He's very . . .

Prabhupāda: Subhaga. Subhaga make the chief of the reception. And Nitāicānda his assistant, and another, a foreigner.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāicānda is in charge of the building.

Bhavānanda: He has so much to do anyway, Nitāicānda. Subhaga is best.

Prabhupāda: Subhaga and two foreigners.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As assistants. Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Make that arrangement. He is very good boy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is really good.

Prabhupāda: And he has understood the philosophy. He has got ten years' experience of London.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I met him in the London airport, and I told him, "Why don't you come to India?" 'Cause I saw him. I thought he'd be really helpful here. So, Prabhupāda, another thing, is there any need to increase our prasādam distribution? Like right now about a thousand people come.

Prabhupāda: No, what . . . they are coming, but if you see that more are coming, then increase. There is no question of advertising.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There isn't. We shouldn't advertise.

Prabhupāda: Rather, you make some arrangement that there will be prasādam-selling there, and anyone comes within the temple, give him something. Just like I give here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we don't do that at all.

Bhavānanda: We do. Everyone who comes in the temple, they get that miṣṭi baḍā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone?

Bhavānanda: Everyone.

Prabhupāda: Miṣṭi baḍā?

Bhavānanda: Miṣṭi baḍā we give, gūr and peanut with little coconut in it and masalā. Oh, we're famous now in the whole area. Even Jayapatākā was seeing one government official in Krishnanagar, and he said: "Did you bring me any of that baḍā?" They all want.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, something must be given.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, if we get a good cook like Shantilal and he can cook hundreds of singāra or kacaurī and we can sell, and then the next room have one men who serves them prasādam, everyone will come to take prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Keep nice water, sitting place. They will take.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What kind of sitting place? On the floor with mats, or benches and tables?

Prabhupāda: Benches, table will be nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better. Like in a South Indian house. The South Indian restaurants, they have those . . . of course, those are fancy, like in Vṛndāvana. In the South Indian restaurant they always have a table with marble top. Then they put a leaf on it. Very nice.

Harikeśa: There is room down there. That big room can be used as like a restaurant.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where?

Harikeśa: The next floor down on the end, where they sometimes have class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Prabhupāda wants it up there where they sell the prasādam.

Bhavānanda: They will buy in some leaf cup and then go next door and have a place to sit down and take it, and then water to wash their . . . actually, there's a pump. Everything is right there.

Prabhupāda: You will find such confectioner's shop, sitting place and eating.

Bhavānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Like that.

Bhavānanda: Just like in Navadvīpa.

Harikeśa: They have that near the Gopīnātha temple in Vṛndāvana. Everybody goes there. That is very big.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make a nice sweet, sweetmeats also.

Harikeśa: Lugloos is big there. Those lugloos.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should make many types of sweetmeats. There should be so many preparations, all offered to the Deity. People can purchase mahā-prasādam. Oh, it will be very big. When you read in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, every time Caitanya Mahāprabhu's devotees are purchasing prasādam from Jagannātha temple, all the time.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds like they make a huge quantity at Purī, huge quantities of foodstuffs.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Any time you can get one thousand man's eatables.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any time? But we only offer one little plate at ārati.

Prabhupāda: No, that you can increase as the demand is increased.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is such a demand in Purī?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone goes. They do not cook. He purchases prasādam and eat. Everyone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's so famous. Yes, whenever someone visits there they always bring back prasādam from Jagannātha.

Prabhupāda: It is . . . fifty-six time, prasādam is offered there. Fifty-six time.

Harikeśa: It's constant.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: It's constantly being offered, all day long.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Once offered, ārati is performed. Then it is taken away, washed, the room. Again half an hour after . . . why half an hour? Fifteen minutes after. Throughout the whole day and night, fifty-six times.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Night also.

Prabhupāda: Night . . . not night. But up to late night. So fifty-six time, chāppānna, within twenty-four hours, so just imagine.

Harikeśa: Four or five times an hour.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So we have to do that at this temple.

Prabhupāda: Every fifteen minutes new set, prasādam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You need a whole lot of Shantilals to do that.

Prabhupāda: And these ingredients are supplied by Jagannātha's own field. They grow it, and they . . . so there is no, I mean, difficulty. They grow and they sell. They get money so they can maintain the establishment. A long time. There are potters. Daily they will supply for each prasādam a new pot. It cannot be used again. So few people purchase with pot, original pot, and they have got a fixed price. This big pot, say, five rupees, this pot, two rupees; this pot, one rupee. So as you like, you can purchase. Very nice system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You went there sometimes to take prasādam?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I became a guest. A gentleman was our tenant, and he gave me introduction letter to his brother-in-law. He was a pleader in Jagannātha Purī. So he received me very well. So he offered me lunch, and I saw there was something, a small ball-like, in the pot, bowl. So I asked: "What is this?" He said: "It is meat." (laughs) He was eating meat, so he thought it is good reception, the guest is offered nice meat. So I said, "No, you . . . what is? I never took meat. I never expected; this is Jagannātha . . ." So then he became very much ashamed. He said: "I did not know. I thought this is the best . . ." Then, "Never mind." Then I stopped eating there. At that time I was a boy. After appearing in my B.A. examination there was holiday, so I went to Jagannātha Purī in 1920 or something like that. So I was married in 1918. So some of the friends of my wife, they said that, "Your husband now gone. He is not coming back." So after returning I understood she was crying. (laughs) So anyway, then I used to purchase prasādam in the market. They were bringing, and I was eating. I stayed for three, four days, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You said that when you were very young you always used to calculate what was the cost of a ticket to Purī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Every day I was seeing how to go to Jagannātha Purī and how to go to Vṛndāvana. At that time a fare was, for Vṛndāvana, four or five rupees, and similarly for Jagannātha Purī. So I was thinking, "When I shall go?" That's all. I took first opportunity to go to Jagannātha Purī after my examination, and in business connection when I went to Agra, then I first of all took the opportunity to go to Vṛndāvana from Agra. This was in 1925, and I visited Jagannātha Purī sometime in 1920. And '25 I went to Vṛndāvana. I remember, in those days I was sitting within the car, and there was some prasādam. One monkey entered and took away everything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the train compartment.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. They are very clever. Many times in Vṛndāvana the monkeys have taken away from my hand foodstuff.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While you were eating.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Thrice . . . at least thrice, four times I remember.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wanted them to take it? You were offering . . .

Prabhupāda: No, suppose a big monkey comes and takes. You are stumped. (laughter) You have to give him. No other way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They will attack otherwise.

Prabhupāda: In Rādhā-Dāmodara temple I was cooking, the other room. So although the door was closed, he knew. He opened the door and took away. Sometimes they would take away the . . . (door opens) Come on. The, what is called, dough? For . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cāpāṭis?

Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi. So they will eat that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Raw dough.

Prabhupāda: You gave him some book, this Surendra?

Jayapatākā: That was a long time ago I gave one book. Since then you told me not . . . you wrote that don't give any books, but that was a long time ago I gave.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. So you have talked and dealt with him?

Jayapatākā: He came to me and said he wanted a job here. He said he wanted to be our manager, this and that. And then he was hinting about that they were getting one wage, one allowance, so he was expecting to get some allowance also, a little more.

Prabhupāda: So he is coming now. What is the purpose?

Jayapatākā: He wanted to be our . . . to work for us. To work for Your Divine Grace, maybe.

Prabhupāda: How did you find him by dealing with him?

Jayapatākā: I didn't find him. He found me.

Prabhupāda: No, no, how you have . . .? How do you . . .?

Jayapatākā: Oh, how did I find . . . how did . . .? Well, I know that influentially he is, in the district level, he is very influential. I mean to say that he has got very good relations with all the government people and all the local people. And whenever I go somewhere to invite them for any festival, any function, they would always speak highly of Surendra Das and that he had just about a week ago before, he had already invited them for the Caitanya Maṭha. So he is very active in that way, something which we don't have time or understanding to do, so many of us. He knows how to receive people and make them feel very nice and then show them around. He has got that . . . a nice personality like that, and he is very active in . . .

Prabhupāda: So if we engage him, do you think we shall get some good service?

Jayapatākā: I don't know the . . . I know that he is able to perform good service. As far as whether he'll . . . other people tell me that since he's been working for the Caitanya Maṭha . . . (break) (end)