740629 - Interview - Melbourne

Conversations by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740629IV-MELBOURNE - June 29, 1974 - 47:04 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . comfortable, it will never be. Do you understand this? Fish is taken from the water and you put on the land, so you may give the fish very velvet cushion and anything, all nice thing, but will the fish will be comfortable?

Reporter (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, if you . . . we living entities, we are spirit soul. We are not this material body. Unfortunately, our system of education is so dull that the authorities do not know that we are not this body; we are spirit soul. Still, they are big, big philosopher, big, big politician and big, big leader and social authorities. But real thing is mistaken. He is accepting this body as self, or he is thinking that, "The bodily comforts will make me happy." But that cannot be, because the body is made of matter, and we are spirit soul. The same thing, from water, you catch the fish and put on the land; it will never be happy. So long you'll continue to have this material body, there cannot be any happiness. And so many problems. The main problem is birth, death, old age and disease. So this is due to this material body. Therefore an intelligent man should know that, "I am not this body; I am spirit soul. My field of activities are on the spiritual platform and then I will be happy." So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means educating people how to be situated on the spiritual platform and be happy. This is the sum and substance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Reporter (1): So that . . .

Reporter (2): Your Divine Grace, do you think that chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is the only way to achieve liberation?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra means Kṛṣṇa, the Lord; and Hare, or Harā, means Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like you are there, the heater is there and the heating energy is there, similarly, Kṛṣṇa is there and Kṛṣṇa's energies are there. Just like the sun is there and the sun's energy is there, the sunshine, heat and light. Is it not? There is heat and light. That is from the sun. But still, the heat and light is different from the sun. Suppose you are in the sunshine. In one sense you are in the sun, and in other sense you are not in the sun, because sun's temperature is so high, had you been in the sun, you would have been immediately blown up, burned into ashes. But you are in the sunshine, the energy of sun. So Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is situated as the supreme fire, and whatever we are experiencing, that is His energy. Although sun is . . . the example, sun is 93,000,000 miles away, but on account of the sun's energy spread, we are feeling the presence of sun. Similarly, we have to associate with God, Kṛṣṇa, by chanting His holy name because Kṛṣṇa, being Absolute, He is not different from His name, and therefore, if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any offense, then you directly associate with Kṛṣṇa.

Reporter (1): In all scriptures that I have read, it's always said that the disciple, the devotee, must remember God's name or remember it constantly, and so you are saying that the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is God's name. How do we know this?

Prabhupāda: How do you know your name?

Reporter (1): My parents gave it to me.

Prabhupāda: So authority. Similarly, from authority you have to know what is the name.

Reporter (1): From the scriptures.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

'Reporter (3):' Śrīla Prabhupāda, what about other religions such as Christianity and . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no second religion. There is only one religion. That is God consciousness. Now, as soon as you designate, "Christian," "Hindu," "Muslim," that is upādhi, designated religion. Just like you are here and you are in black coat. So if I say: "Black Mr. Such-and-such," so to say, "Black Mr. Such-and-such," there is no need. "Mr. Such-and-such" is sufficient. But we have been accustomed to say like that, "Black Mr. Such-and-such," "White Mr. Such-and-such." Similarly, religion is one, but due to our sophisticated mind, we call it "Christian religion," "Hindu religion," "Muslim religion." (aside) Why don't you come in? Why are you outside?

Devotee: I have my working clothes on, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I'm rather dirty.

Prabhupāda: All right. So there cannot be . . . but for particular reason or circumstances we call it, but religion is one. That means to abide by the laws of God. That is religion. If you do not know what is God, what is His law, that is another thing. But the religion means to abide by the laws of God, that's all. It cannot be Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Just like the state law. So there are many persons, citizens, of the state. The law is not that, "It is for the Christians," "It is for the Jews," "It is for the Negroes," "It is for the white man." It is not like that. Law is the same for everyone. You can call it, "This is Negro law," "This is white law," "This is black law . . ." No. That is not very scientific. Scientific is that God is there, and we are all . . . God is great, we are all subordinates, and we have to obey the orders of God. That is religion. Am I right or wrong?

'Reporter (3):' You're right.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you cannot say, "Christian religion," "Hindu religion," "Muslim religion." Religion is religion. That's . . . God is neither Hindu, Muslim, Christian. God is God. God is one. We . . . it may be that God is one, but we understand Him from different angles of vision, and that different angles of vision may be called as Christian angle vision, the Hindu angle vision, this Jew's angle vision. But that is angle of vision. Just like the sun is there. Here we see it is not so bright, but you ask some Arabian friend, "What is . . ." he will say: "It is very bright." So his appreciation of the sun is different from your appreciation here—it is cloudy; it is misty. But the sun is the same. There is no such thing as "Hindu religion," "Muslim religion," "Christian religion." It is all sophisticated. Religion is one. You must know what is God, and you must know what is His order and abide by it; you are religious. That's all. We are preaching that.

Reporter (2): Your Divine Grace, since religion is one, do you think man will enter into a golden age in which he will accept one God?

Prabhupāda: If they do not accept, they are foolish, if God is one. God cannot be two.

'Reporter (3):' So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is the purpose of human life to realize God?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only purpose. Except this purpose, fulfilling, anything we are doing, that is animalism. As the dog is jumping, we are also jumping like that. It is dog's dancing, that's all. What is the difference? A dog is thinking, "I am very strong dog. I am this." And another man—"I am Englishman. I am . . ." So what is the difference? Mentality is the same. To think of this body that "I am this body," that is required to the dog, to the man. When one understands that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," that is humanity.

'Reporter (3):' So Śrīla Prabhupāda, have you realized God?

Prabhupāda: What do you think? What is your opinion?

'Reporter (3):' (laughs) I can't say.

Prabhupāda: Then if I say: "Yes," then what you will understand? If you are not yourself expert, then even if I say: "Yes, I am God-realized," how you will take it as truth? If you do not know what is God realization, then how you can ask this question, and how you will be satisfied by the answer? You do not know.

'Reporter (3):' Well, what is God realization?

Prabhupāda: Then . . . then you were asking, "Are you God-realized?" If I say: "Yes," then how you'll believe it? You do not know what is God realization. Then why do you put this question? You do not know yourself. If I say: "Yes," how you'll understand that I am right? Therefore you should not put all these questions. It has no value. You do not know yourself what is God realization. Now, just like a medical man, if he asks another man, medical man, so if he says: "Yes," then medical man will understand him by technical terms whether he is medical man. So unless one is medical man, what is the use of asking another man, "Are you medical man?" unless you are prepared to take the answer whatever I give. Are you prepared?

'Reporter (3):' Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then it is all right. I am. I am seeing God every moment. So unless we are prepared to take the answer, we should not put ourself . . .

Reporter (4): Your Divine Grace, do you see meditation as a means to God's realization?

Prabhupāda: Yes, meditation is also one means, but you cannot meditate now, because you do not know what is God. How you will meditate? Meditation upon something, but if you do not know what is God, upon whom you'll meditate? First of all you must know. Just like we know God, Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ (BG 18.65): "Always think of Me." This is meditation. So we meditate upon Kṛṣṇa. So that is perfect meditation, because meditation means to think of God. But if you do not know what is God, how you will think of Him?

Reporter (4): It is written in many scriptures that God is light. In . . .

Prabhupāda: God is everything. God is darkness also. We say: "God is that from whom everything comes." So light also comes; darkness also comes. So darkness also comes from God.

'Reporter (3):' Do you think meditation is a way to see the God inside yourself? To see God inside yourself?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the description of meditation. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs, by their mind concentrating upon God, they try to see Him. So you must know what is God. Just like our institution, they know what is God, description of God. They can think of God. But if you have no idea of God, how you'll think of Him?

Reporter (2): In your books you talk about Brahmaloka, which, I suppose is heaven.

Prabhupāda: No, there are many lokas. Heaven also one of them. Brahmaloka also one of them. Don't you see so many planetary system? So there are innumerable planets. Some of them may be Brahmaloka, Candraloka, Varuṇaloka, Sūryaloka, and so many others. So Brahmaloka is one of the planets.

Reporter (2): So that is actually a physical planet?

Prabhupāda: Don't you see physical planets? The sun is not a physical planet?

Reporter (2): It is.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by physical?

Reporter (2): Well, actually existing on a material . . .

Prabhupāda: So don't you see existing so many planets, at night, innumerable? What they are?

Reporter (2): Stars and planets, yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter (2): So actually heaven is . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Reporter (2): . . . in this material universe?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you say: "United States of America," that's actually a place. There are living entities. There are men and mountains, rivers. Everything is there. Similarly, all these planets, they are inhabited by living entities. There are similarly cities and towns and mountains and rivers and oceans. Everything is there—of different pattern. Just like the moon planet. It is . . . the temperature is 200 degree below zero. So you cannot go and live there. But there are living entities who can live there. Just like even on this planet, there are living entities in the Arctic region, but for us it is very difficult to live there. And there are different climatic influences. Even on this planet, one place is suitable for one kind of man, another place is suitable for another. Just like we are Indian.

We cannot tolerate such, I mean, what is called, pinching, cool. So similarly, in India you cannot tolerate scorching heat. So for each and every planet there are different patterns of living entities. They can live. Just like you cannot live within water. For that reason you cannot say nobody can live in the water. That is foolishness. You cannot live. You say. So there are so many fishes, varieties of fishes, they are living. Don't carry your present experience to others. That is not very good argument. Now here the so-called scientists, they are saying in other planets there is no living entity. Why? They are putting so many reasons that, "This is lacking. This is lacking." But what do you know what is lacking and how . . .? These things are not accepted. You do not know anything about the other planets. How you say there is no living entity?

'Reporter (3):' Your Divine Grace, is there a Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement in India?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

'Reporter (3):' How strong is it?

Prabhupāda: How strong? As strong as you think, because in every village, every town, every home, there is Hare Kṛṣṇa, still.

Reporter (2): Your Divine Grace, do you think . . . can you see a time coming when all mankind will be united?

Prabhupāda: That is very difficult to say. But we can be united on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. It is not possible.

Reporter (2): Do you think that that is . . . that stage is possible within this generation?

Prabhupāda: It is possible at any time, provided people take to spiritual life. But they'll not take to it. For example, one of the items of spiritual life is no meat-eating. So do you think this philosophy will be taken by everyone? And this is one of the item of spiritual life: no meat-eating.

Reporter (2): Is that a necessary . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Without . . . if you don't stop meat-eating, you cannot understand what is spiritual life. A sinful life cannot understand what is God, what is devotion. It is not possible.

Reporter (2): And is that the same for other . . .?

Prabhupāda: The sinful, yes. Four items we prohibit our students; they do not indulge: illicit sex life—meat, fish, egg-eating; intoxication up to cigarette smoking, drinking tea, coffee; and gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. So unless one gives up these four things, he cannot understand what is God, what is God's kingdom, what is our business. Nobody can understand.

Reporter (2): Drinking tea and coffee also?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It is also intoxication.

'Reporter (3):' Your Divine Grace, in a lot of scriptures I read there is a lot of references to breath, and the breath as being the . . .

Prabhupāda: Breathing.

'Reporter (3):' Breathing . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

'Reporter (3):' . . . it's a source of God. And there are some yogas which concentrate on the breath.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are different airs within the body, and controlling the airs and putting this soul . . . soul is already floating in the air. So the yogī mystic process can bring the soul from different places, and then they bring it here, and they ascertain where he has to go, and then, from this hole . . . what is called, this hole?

Madhudviṣa: Brahma-randhra.

Prabhupāda: Brahma-randhra we say.

Satsvarūpa: Skull.

Devotee: Cerebellum? Cerebral . . .?

Prabhupāda: There is some hole. From that hole the soul goes out to any planet he likes. That is perfection of yoga. But here in your country the yoga means a certain type of exercise. Yes.

Reporter (2): And this path of devotional yoga, bhakti-yoga, that is the path for this time, for this age?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti-yoga is the real yoga. You'll find in Bhagavad-gītā, when yoga system is described, the Lord says:

yoginām api sarveṣāṁ

mad-gatenāntarātmanā

śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ

sa me yuktatamo mataḥ

(BG 6.47)

"The first-class yogī is he who is always thinking of Me," or Kṛṣṇa, "within Himself." He is first-class yogi. So our these students, they are being educated how to think of Kṛṣṇa always, twenty-four hours, without any stop. And that is first-class yoga.

Reporter (2): If you are to think about something, don't you first have to see that thing?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter (2): Well, are you showing your devotees Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly.

Reporter (2): Then what does . . .? Well, what is Kṛṣṇa? What does Kṛṣṇa look like?

Prabhupāda: Then ask them, who has seen already. Ask them. They'll tell you what is Kṛṣṇa. But the same thing: if he says something about Kṛṣṇa, you will accept it?

Reporter (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You will accept?

Reporter (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then see. Here is Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): But that's a painting.

Prabhupāda: That is painting. Suppose your painting is there. Can I not say that, "Here is Mr. Such-and-such"?

Reporter (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then? What is the wrong there?

Reporter (2): Well, the artist would have been looking at me to paint the picture of me.

Prabhupāda: No, no, your photograph is not yourself?

Reporter (2): Yes, it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes, similarly, it is Kṛṣṇa's painting. But the difference is that you cannot talk with your photograph, but we can talk with Kṛṣṇa's photograph. That is the difference.

Reporter (2): But some of these pictures are slightly different. They show different . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, on principle it is. As Kṛṣṇa's color is there, Kṛṣṇa's flute is there, Kṛṣṇa's peacock feather is there, these things are . . . these are described in the śāstra. Veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ barhāvataṁ samasitāmbuda-sun . . . (Bs. 5.30). So Kṛṣṇa's . . . suppose even a painting of yourself: One man paints a little different from your face; another man paints . . . but on the whole, it is the same. In that way Kṛṣṇa is not depending on the painting but on the features of His description as it is in the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa's color is described there. Kṛṣṇa's peacock feather is described there. Kṛṣṇa's flute is there. Kṛṣṇa's ever-eternal consort . . . praṇaya-keli. In loving mood always, Kṛṣṇa. Praṇaya-keli-kalā-vilāsam (Bs. 5.31). He's always in enjoying spirit. So we get idea, idea of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa, being Absolute, the idea of Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa is nondifferent.

Reporter (2): But if a painter was to paint a picture of me or of Allen or of anybody, first they'd take the subject, and the subject would be a living person, and then they would paint the picture, and the picture would be in . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Subject is there, that "Kṛṣṇa's color is bluish. Kṛṣṇa has got in His hand a flute. Kṛṣṇa has got a peacock feather on His head. Kṛṣṇa stands little curving." Tri-bhaṅga-lalitam. Tri-bhaṅga means in three ways He is curved. You see? Tri-bhaṅga. Three, three times He is curved. Śyāmaṁ tri-bhaṅga-lalitaṁ niyata-prakāśam (Bs. 5.31). These are the description of the Vedas. Just like my students, they have painted so many pictures, so I have given simply the hints that "This picture should be like this." So they take note and make the picture, and people very much appreciate our picture. So you can paint pictures by taking hints from the authority. That is going on. So if you are intelligent, you can make almost like that.

Reporter (2): But still, somebody must have seen Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter (2): . . . to actually paint Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Seen Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa, when He was present on this earth, so many people saw Him. And since then, there are so many temples of Kṛṣṇa's Deity, Kṛṣṇa's form. The same thing as it is stated in the Vedic literature, they saw also personally, and they made statues, and they are being worshiped regularly. There are thousands of thousands of temples of Kṛṣṇa. They are worshiped.

Reporter (2): But has anybody actually seen Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter (2): Today?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like your grandfather has seen your father, or your father has seen your grandfather. You may not have seen, but your father can describe about your grandfather, "My father was like this, like this, like this." What is the difficulty?

Satsvarūpa: He asked if anyone now has seen Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: How now one can see? He has to see through the paramparā, succession. You have not seen your great-grandfather. How do you know that you are? How do you know?

Reporter (2): That my great-grandfather . . .

Prabhupāda: Great-grandfather or his father, you have not seen. How do you believe?

Reporter (2): By your parents telling you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore you have to receive the knowledge from the authorities, paramparā.

Reporter (2): But Kṛṣṇa is . . . supposedly, Kṛṣṇa is eternal or, that is, indestructible. So surely He must be existing today.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is existing. Just like at night the sun is existing, but you have no eyes to see him. That does not mean sun does not exist. It is your deficiency. You cannot see.

Reporter (2): So we need divine sight.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you require qualification. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is always existing. You require the qualification. That is described in the . . . premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38): "Those who are saintly person and in ecstatic love with Kṛṣṇa, they are seeing twenty-four hours Kṛṣṇa." That is not very difficult to understand. If you love somebody, you are seeing him or her always. Is it not?

Reporter (2): That's so.

Prabhupāda: That's it. It requires the qualification of love. Then Kṛṣṇa will be visible twenty-four hours. He'll talk with you. These things are described. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam (BG 10.10). That means talks. "I give him intelligence." That means unless He talks, how He can give intelligence, "You do this"? So you have to qualify yourself to hear Kṛṣṇa, to see Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is always present.

Reporter (4): Your Divine Grace, there are many svāmīs and gurus and religious people throughout the world. How does one know which is the true guru?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Reporter (4): How does one recognize the true guru?

Prabhupāda: One who knows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Otherwise a rascal. That's all.

Reporter (4): What is the test of a true guru?

Prabhupāda: He will describe about Kṛṣṇa. He will ask you to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. His business is to propagate Kṛṣṇa. That is the symptom of guru.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if we don't know what Kṛṣṇa is and we still get a bona fide spiritual master, then how do we call that? Our good fortune?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in Caitanya . . . ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva. Kona, some fortunate person; not all.

ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

(CC Madhya 19.151)

(aside) You find out this in Teachings of Lord Caitanya. Find out "Teachings to Rūpa Gosvāmī."

Satsvarūpa: What chapter is it?

Prabhupāda: See the Contents.

Satsvarūpa: "Teachings to Rūpa Gosvāmī." Then the next chapter is Sanātana Gosvāmī.

Prabhupāda: What is that? There is no page mark, "Teachings to Rūpa Gosvāmī"?

Satsvarūpa: Yes, there is one chapter. I am looking through the chapter, from page twenty-one to thirty-nine.

Prabhupāda: That is "Teachings to Rūpa . . ."

Satsvarūpa: It's called "Teachings to Rūpa Gosvāmī."

Prabhupāda: So you can go on reading it, where it is stated that, "In this way, wandering, the living entity by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, fortunate . . ." It is on the beginning of the . . . why don't you read the chapter?

Satsvarūpa: (reading) "Within this brahmāṇḍa, or universe, there are innumerable living entities . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: ". . . and according to their own fruitive activities they are transmigrating from one species of life to another and from one planet to another. In this way their engagement in material existence is being continued since time immemorial. The living entities are atomic parts and parcels of the supreme spirit. There is, however, a measurement for the length and breadth of the atomic spiritual spark. It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, Eighty-seventh Chapter, thirty-sixth verse, that if you divide the top of a hair into one hundred parts and again if you divide one part of that into another one hundred parts, such 1/10,000th part of the tip of a hair is the length and breadth of the individual soul.

This is also confirmed in the Vedas in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad. This atomic magnitude of the individual living entity is again described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Eleventh Canto, Sixteenth Chapter, eleventh verse (SB 11.16.11), as follows." This is a speech given by one of the four Kumāras known as Sunanda on the occasion of performing a great sacrifice. He said, " 'O supreme truth, if the living entities were not infinitesimal living sparks of the supreme spirit, then each minute spark would have been all-pervading, and there would be no necessity of its being controlled.' "

Prabhupāda: That is very . . . otherwise . . . if the living entity is equal to the Supreme Being, then . . . suppose you are a living entity. You could speak everything of what is going on in others' mind or body. You cannot say what I am thinking. I cannot say what you are thinking. Therefore I or you are not all-pervading. We are limited. And that is living entity. This is a very nice example. Go on.

Satsvarūpa: "But if the constitution of the living entity is accepted as being the minute part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, then automatically he becomes a controlled living entity under a supreme energy or power. This is his constitutional position. Therefore if he remains as he is created in that natural position, he can attain . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We are created as being controlled. So instead of aspiring to become controller, if we remain controlled, that is our natural position. But some rascals, they are trying to become controller, "I am . . . by meditation I have become God." But if you are a God, then how you have become dog? This is going on. The cheating, the so-called svāmīs. Do they not say, "I am God"? Do they not say: "I am God. You are God. Everyone God"?

Reporter (2): No, some . . . some might say that, but . . .

Prabhupāda: But some of them; I am talking, the some of them. Some of them are not all foolish. Some of them are foolish. So these foolish persons, they say that, "I am God. You are God. Everyone is God." That is foolishness. We are not God. We are part and parcel of God, qualitatively one. But we are not the Supreme Being. We are living being, but not Supreme Being.

Reporter (2): God is inside us.

Prabhupāda: God is inside, outside, everywhere.

'Reporter (3):' Who do you think Jesus Christ was?

Prabhupāda: Now, let us finish one. Jesus Christ himself said that he is son of God. That's all right. That's all right.

Reporter (2): But if you take a drop of water and you merge it back into an ocean . . . this is an example that is often given, I think, by these masters, that if you take a drop of water and you put it into an ocean, that drop becomes one with that ocean.

Prabhupāda: The drop of water becomes ocean?

Reporter (2): No, but it becomes merged in that ocean.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Merging is different. But the ocean remains the ocean.

Reporter (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: And you remain the drop, that's all. Because . . . now, suppose your body, material body—earth, water, air, fire—now, when this body will be decomposed, so this form will not remain. Does it mean that your body has become the whole universal material elements?

Reporter (2): No. But surely body is different from soul.

Prabhupāda: That body is a drop in the bigger material elements. That does not mean your body has become the whole material elements. Similarly, a drop of ocean water is drop always. It does not become ocean. It appears that it is mixed up, but mixed up does not mean the drop will become as ocean. That is not the fact.

'Reporter (3):' When they say the drop mixes with the ocean . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

'Reporter (3):' . . . it's like the human finite form merging with the infinite, and then it acquires the powers of infinite . . .

Prabhupāda: Mixes means . . . just like, the example is given: just like a green bird enters into a tree which is also green. So if . . . to my eyes it appears that the bird is mixed up, but actually that is not fact. Suppose an aeroplane, you see aeroplane is going on. Then, after some time you see there is no aeroplane; it is the same sky. It has mixed up. It has not mixed up. Your eyes are defective. It appears like mixed up, but it cannot mixed up. The airplane is keeping its identity. The bird is keeping its identity.

Reporter (2): Is the human soul, then, limited or unlimited?

Prabhupāda: Limited.

Reporter (2): Limited?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter (2): That it has boundaries and . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are limited, therefore you are under the control of material nature. That is being explained there. He is limited. If he keeps his limited existence, that is nice. But unnecessarily if he wants to become unlimited, that is artificial. How it can be?

Reporter (2): I seem to remember reading a chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā that said . . . I can't quite remember what chapter it was, but it said that . . . Kṛṣṇa was talking to Arjuna, and it said that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "When you realize Me," or when you realize God, or Kṛṣṇa, "you will see the whole of creation with inside . . ."

Prabhupāda: Hmm? "You?"

Reporter (2): "You will see the whole of creation with inside Me and with inside yourself." Is that a true translation?

Prabhupāda: Where it is? Cāru?

Cāru: "You will see all beings in Me and Me in all beings."

Prabhupāda: So what is that? Does it mean all beings in Kṛṣṇa?

Reporter (2): The way I read it . . . the translation that I read also said, "With inside yourself, you own . . ."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, He, as Paramātmā, is everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). But that does not mean everyone is Kṛṣṇa. You are in this room. That does not mean you are room.

Reporter (2): So we are in God, and God is in us?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without God we have no existence.

Satsvarūpa: "A true yogī observes Me in all beings and also sees every being in Me. Indeed, the self-realized man sees Me everywhere." That's different.

Reporter (4): Your Divine Grace, do you think that every human being will become liberated? This is what the . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Reporter (2): Well, thank you very much for your time.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees offer obeisances) (end)