760901 - Conversation - Delhi
Prabhupāda: ...required to kill somebody, he'll do that. If it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma SB 5.5.4 . Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means pāpa. It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world is (indistinct) is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. "Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification." Bhagavān (indistinct). Because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non-Bhagavān, now he wants to become Bhagavān. Yogi, that is also another sense gratification. That if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live, very nicely. Gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motor car. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motor car? This is going on. (Hindi)
Guest: Apnāra praśna hai? (Hindi conversation continues for some time)
Prabhupāda: But so far you must fix up, what you want.
Guest: What is realization?
Prabhupāda: Realization, everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization.
Guest: Realization of God.
Prabhupāda: Then you, if you want...
Guest: Realization of God.
Prabhupāda: Realization of God, (Hindi), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti BG 18.55 . So if you want to know me, then bhaktyā, bhakti. (Hindi) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ. If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti. If you want something else, that is a different thing.
yānti-deva vratā devān
pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām
BG 9.25
(Hindi conversation for some time)
Prabhupāda: Find out this verse. (Hindi) Somebody, you can read? (rings bell) (more Hindi) Somebody... Why don't you send? What they are doing? All these rascals, that they cannot read.
Devotee: Someone should come in?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain here. Why are there? What they are doing there?
Hari-śauri: Harikeśa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books.
Prabhupāda: Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām avyaktasakta-cetasam. Kleśa. Beginning with kleśa. You could not? Kleśa. K-l-e-s. Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here.
Devotee: Kleśo 'dhikarataras teṣām?
Prabhupāda: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleśo'dhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām BG 12.5 . (Hindi) Read it.
Pradyumna:
kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām
avyaktāsakta-cetasām
avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ
dehavadbhir avāpyate
BG 12.5
Prabhupāda: Ah. Avyaktā hi gatir duḥkham. (Hindi) Read it.
Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. (Hindi) What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jñāna-yogis, and persons who are in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jñāna-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed."
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa personally says bhaktyā mām abhijānāti BG 18.55 . (Hindi) If you like to tolerate adi-kleśa, that is your choice. Otherwise, Bhagavān, sac-cid-ānanda...
śrī vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-
śṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau
yuktasya bhaktāṁś ca niyuñjato 'pi
vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **
(Hindi) You can accept any way. That is your choice.
ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhis
tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ
goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
[Bs. 5.37]
Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ānanda vigraha [Bs. 5.1] . (Hindi conversation for some time)
Indian man (1): Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying in Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: I'm going to... Oh, Vṛndāvana, three weeks.
Indian man (1): Where are you spending your...
Prabhupāda: Any time in your home.
Indian man (1): Any time (indistinct) which is convenient to Your Grace. I'll come over to Vṛndāvana on the 15th evening. 15th evening, I'll come over to Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Indian man (1): And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi? From Vṛndāvana after three weeks?
Prabhupāda: They have made program to go to Chandigarh.
Indian man (1): Chandigarh. (indistinct) The route is almost the same distance from here to Vṛndāvana. 5 miles, 8 miles difference. Not much difference mileage-wise.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vṛndāvana via Aligarh?
Indian man (2): In my opinion you should. That road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six or seven feet and all this is all mud and muck and the car skids. In my opinion you go via Aligarh.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vṛndāvana.
Indian man (2): Suggest to go back to Vṛndāvana and then come. (Hindi) (Gopāla Kṛṣṇa converses with Indians about which road to take)
<PS:Purport> Pradyumna: Purport: Samādhi means "fixed mind." The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātmatattva-yāthātmyam: "When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samādhi. "Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy.
(More Hindi)
Prabhupāda: He, her son he is the father and mother, he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband wife, child we have. Bacā, ek bacā? He's getting very happy, very nice boy. (Hindi) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining, from foreign countries and not from here. (Hindi) Here is Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he was sales manager in Coca-cola. (Hindi) ...dollar, he has given. (Hindi for some time) You have bought that book? Ah. Stillson Judah's?
Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vṛndāvana also.
Prabhupāda: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one, "Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counter-culture." "Hare Kṛṣṇa and Counter-culture." (Hindi)
Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion... In their set of volumes on different religions.
Indian woman: Prasāda (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: I am going to Vṛndāvana tomorrow. (Hindi) I'll be three weeks there. (hindi) Still, it is Vṛndāvana. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam. (Hindi) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vṛndāvana dhāma is also worshipable. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvanam ramya kācid upāsana vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā va kalpitā. Upāsana vraja-vadhū, the vraja, damsels of vrajabhūmi, the gopīs, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhū-vargeṇā. Ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa-tanayas tad-dhāma vṛndāvana.
Indian man (3): ...we are going there after Parliament session tomorrow. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: They spend so much money for the roadways, still it is not good.
Indian man (3): Draining is different levels arising water (indistinct) in excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out. I was told that...
Prabhupāda: There is no sufficient outlet.
Indian man (3): Yes. But some of those āśrama, Mathurā, it's very deep, that four feet water in the āśramas. Three-four feet water.
Prabhupāda: Within the āśramas?
Indian man (3): And temple.
Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamunā, but it has not come to our Raman Reti.
Indian man (3): And now you will remain here in India for some time?
Prabhupāda: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year.
Indian man (3): You are just gone from (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Rest, if I rest then there may be... Because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence... Still they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris.
Indian man (3): Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etc. and the...
Prabhupāda: Program was that they promised to give me land.
Indian man (3): Who?
Prabhupāda: That chief minister.
Indian man (3): Have they done so?
Prabhupāda: Not yet.
Indian man (3): I had about 2 acres was available, except that. (talks about land he owns-indistinct)
Prabhupāda: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet. By one million six hundred thousand miles.
Indian man (3): What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy.
Prabhupāda: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet and they have gone there.
Indian man (3): No, no, have you given up the idea of Kurukṣetra?
Prabhupāda: No, no, not...
Indian man (3): No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it because so much is to be done, if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. (indistinct) ...and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the (talks about himself—very low, hard to hear)
Prabhupāda: You bring one little plate prasādam from there, from that...
Indian man (3): You will be in Vṛndāvana for some...
Prabhupāda: Three weeks.
Indian man (3): After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man (3): Well, this is God's work, Lord Kṛṣṇa's work. I am trying (indistinct) to cooperate with you because nobody can do.
Prabhupāda: No, you have done tremendous work.
Indian man (3): No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem (in the) country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars.
Indian man (3): Yes, they'll branch out and... It's a great service.
Prabhupāda: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature.
Indian man (3): It is not that difficulties were not there (indistinct). I don't have the support, but I feel (indistinct) find that several places the demand for this for the acceptance of (indistinct) also not in the manner in which I had wanted. (indistinct) ... lakhs of people stand against (indistinct) religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people (goes on giving his own opinions-indistinct) ...I hope you are not coming in your way.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Indian man (3): I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we can do together. Possibly this question, building and all that. (indistinct) It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that there is work to be done at the Kurukṣetra.
Prabhupāda: My point is that Kurukṣetra is the place where Bhagavad-gītā was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Kṛṣṇa, then people will be benefitted. But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad-gītā, then moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ BG 9.12 . That I believe. Find out this verse. Moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo.
Indian man (3): That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct...
Prabhupāda: No, why not direct?
Indian man (3): Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together.
Prabhupāda: And why the others will not accept?
Indian man (3): No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, Gītā as a text, but still people may not judge...
Prabhupāda: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present Gītā as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will...
Indian man (3): No, no.
Prabhupāda: No, no I am not speaking to you. Anyone.
Indian man (3): I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions.
Pradyumna:
moghāśā mogha-karmāṇo
mogha-jñānā vicetasaḥ
rākṣasīm āsurīṁ caiva
prakṛtiṁ mohinīṁ śrītāḥ
BG 9.12
"Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities, and their culture of knowledge are all defeated."
Prabhupāda: Go on, go on. I have given any purport?
<PS:Purport> Pradyumna: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service-going back to Godhead—will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. In other words, persons who mock Kṛṣṇa are to be understood to be demonic or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, such demonic miscreants never surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Kṛṣṇa will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedānta-sūtra and the Upaniṣads, is always baffled.
It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded because they cannot understand the eternal form of Kṛṣṇa. In the Bṛhad-vaiṣṇava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Kṛṣṇa to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the śruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Kṛṣṇa because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation.
Indian man (3): I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There Kṛṣṇa Bhagavān had a dialogue with Uddhava.
Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekādaśa-skandha of the Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: Uddhava.
Indian man (3): And there I felt, I thought that whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavān Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship, (indistinct). Because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the life members.
Pradyumna: Yes, Bhāgavatam, we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama-skandha, pādyokta. We're up to that.
Indian man (3): Now, well then if it is, if the member is (indistinct). Now in the Eleventh there is...
Prabhupāda: Eleventh Canto, yes. When you will remember the verse?
Indian man (3): No, no, number (indistinct) again and again I had gone to (indistinct) and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this (indistinct) when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Rāmānujācārya philosophy which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavān. Just as the human ātmā has a body, this means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith (indistinct). Now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give a guidance...
Prabhupāda: As you say that, Kṛṣṇa also says in the Bhagavad-gita, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ BG 15.7 . We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Aṁśa. So any common man can understand.... (end)