720311 - Conversation - Mathura

Conversations by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720311R1-MATHURA - March 11, 1972 - 12:45 Minutes

(in car)

Gurudāsa: Actually, he planned them very nicely.

Śyāmasundara: Is he willing to give us the rooms?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yamunā: Oh, Prabhupāda. Prabhupāda, you're...

Śyāmasundara: W e should take them, I think.

Gurudāsa: I don't (indistinct).

Yamunā: We must take them, Prabhupāda.

(much honking of horn)

Prabhupāda: To ride on a car in Vṛndāvana. (chuckles)

(break) (inside building) (Hindi or Bengali)

Price is fixed up at five thousand, then it comes to...

Indian man: Minimum is five hundred rupees.

Prabhupāda: Why five hundred? Sixty...

Indian man: Sixty-five rupees per thousand for the stamp duty, then court fees, and then other (indistinct) solicitor charges or the (indistinct) charges. So the last time... (break)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So...

Indian man: Would you like to see the draft, Prabhupāda, first?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian man: If you like it, then I can send that draft.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is... I want...

Indian man: You want to see the draft first?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if there is little to be changed, then...

Indian man: But that is a rough draft I read last night.

Gurudāsa: But we should include that section that says that the front part cannot be used for any commercial...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Gurudāsa: That should be included.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is (indistinct)

(break) Thousand rupees?

Indian man: No, eight hundred. Put it eight hundred. She said...

Prabhupāda: Write eight hundred and sign, I will sign. (break)

Indian man (2): A place for you, for a park, nice place for the āśrama, on the parikramā path.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): Away from the town hustle and bustle and...

Prabhupāda: What is their demand?

Indian man (2): Which one? I showed him... I showed two places. Which one?

Gurudāsa: The very large one, right next to the road. The road curves like this. It is still part of that property.

Prabhupāda: You have not given that? Then change, change little. Not change—we have got addition that that portion cannot be used...

Indian man: Yes, I do the draft work before I put it fine.

Śyāmasundara: The name of that place was Parasurama.

Indian man (2): Parasurama?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah.

Indian man (2): I don't remember now. I made the inquiries just then, and I have forgotten. And I told Subal dāsa Bābājī the exact amount that they wanted and so on. I think it was... I don't quite remember, it was sixty thousand or what. For the smaller one it was perhaps forty thousand.

Gurudāsa: And the bigger one was sixty thousand.

Indian man (2): Bigger one was perhaps sixty thousand. I don't quite remember now. We didn't have a talk with the owner, you see, but the people residing there, they gave an idea. Because we didn't proceed further because Subal dāsa Bābājī said unless Prabhupāda approves it, he would not seek further. So hopefully the exact price that they demand, they will come to talk and we talk with the owners themselves.

Gurudāsa: Yes, but they're eager to sell that property, the owners? Where are the owners? Do you know?

Indian man (2): None of the owners are here, but I'm told one Mr. Lodiya(?)... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...Vṛndāvana-dhāma.

Indian man (2): Situated? All right. (laughs) There is something going on always, you know. (laughs) Just now it is a controversy going on. You see? One Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya dāsa Bābā has published a book. Have you read that?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya is from Rādhā-kuṇḍa?

Indian man (2): No, not from Rādhā-kuṇḍa. (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian man (2): He says that this pañca-tattva principles, we should recognize that this we have borrowed from Buddhism. And there is no mention of pañca-tattva before Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Prabhupāda: That means he defies Caitanya-caritāmṛta.

Indian man (2): He defies Caitanya-caritāmṛta. He defies Caitanya-caritāmṛta like anything, right and left, right and left.

Prabhupāda: He is a demon.

Indian man (2): Huh?

Prabhupāda: Then he is a demon.

Indian man (2): He is a demon. But, you see, the trouble is he is well read, and he has tried to make a very good, unchallengeable sort of a case, and I tell you that nobody from Vṛndāvana has yet been able to come out with a cogent reply. We have yet to find out an answer two important question that he has raised: one, as to whether this principle of pañca-tattva has been mentioned anywhere in the works of the Gosvāmīs prior to Caitanya-caritāmṛta; and two, this advaita(?)-vada, whether this has also been mentioned anywhere before. Both these he says have been borrowed by Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī. They have been introduced under the influence of Buddhism, prevalent so much.

Prabhupāda: How he gives quotation from Buddhism?

Indian man (2): No, he, he...

Prabhupāda: But he says from Buddhism.

Indian man (2): He draws comparisons. He traces the historical background, and then the conditions prevalent..., conditions prevalent particularly in Orissa at that time Vyāsarūpa Gosvāmī lived.

Prabhupāda: One thing is that he says that it is from Buddhism. So where is the authoritative statement in the Buddhism about pañca-tattva? That he has not mentioned.

Indian man (2): No. He has said in Buddhism you have the principle of pañca-śaktis.

Prabhupāda: Śakti and tattva is not the same thing.

Indian man (2): Well, yes.

Prabhupāda: Śakti is part of tattva.

Indian man (2): But these pañca-tattvas...

Prabhupāda: Śakti also can be taken as tattva.

Indian man (2): As tattva, yes. And these tattvas, pañca-tattvas, have been described as śaktis. These pañca-tattvas also have been described as śakti.

Prabhupāda: But Caitanya Mahaprabhu as śaktimān, and others...

Indian man (2): As śakti.

Prabhupāda: Not all śakti; two pañca-tattva. Īśāvatāra, tat-prakāśa(?) avatāra, they are not śakti. They are all the śaktimān.

Indian man (2): Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: And only śakti-tattva, Gadādhara and Śrīvāsa. And other three, They are śaktimān-tattva.

Indian man (2): They are śaktimān-tattva.

Prabhupāda: Pañca-tattvātmakaṁ kṛṣṇaṁ bhakta... (CC Adi 1.14).

Indian man (2): That śloka is from Svarūpa Dāmodara, his kavaca, which he says nobody has ever seen. So it was very safe for Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja to quote the authority of this kavaca, because it is nonexistent. And that is his only authority for the pañca-tattva principle. A mention has also been made of this in Gaura-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā, but he says that is not an authoritative work, that that doesn't really...

Prabhupāda: That means whatever he says, that is authority.

Indian man (2): No, but you see, he argues it out.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): He argues it out.

Prabhupāda: Argue, that's all right. But this...

Indian man (2): The trend is that, whatever he says.

Prabhupāda: Gaura-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā all the ācāryas have accepted.

Indian man (2): But there is a trend now not to accept it. You see, Rādhā-Govindanātha does not accept it. Rādhā-Govindanātha in his big work, he has..., he has not...

Prabhupāda: This Rādhā-Govindanātha, there was some protest against him. He has not accepted Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana also as authority.

Indian man (2): He has not accepted. This point also he has raised, this man.

Prabhupāda: So this difference of opinion may be there, but he is also one of the..., what is called? Differentiate? This gentleman who has...

Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa-Caitanya dāsa.

Prabhupāda: So differences are there, there will be always. So how one's opinion should be taken as...

Indian man (2): Yes. No, but you see, this kind of writing does create sort of a... It does give rise to...

Prabhupāda: So Vṛndāvana is the breeding ground for such things.

Indian man (2): No, it's not Vṛndāvana. That man doesn't live here. He lives in Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Indian man (2): You see? The book was brought here. It was sent by him to some people, and one copy was directed to me also. Five copies were sent here, and I have the honor to be the recipient of one of them. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: How big it is? How big it is?

Indian man (2): A small thing, small thing, about eighty, ninety pages. So I was just going through it, you see. I have been... And I will call a gentleman at two o'clock today with whom I shall discuss the matter. He belongs to that party.

Prabhupāda: Which party?

Indian man (2): The author.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man (2): The author, author's party.

Prabhupāda: Author's party. They have got a party here?

Indian man (2): No party here, but this gentleman has given the foreword. He is the author of Ṭhākura Haridāsa, that big volume.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Indian man (2): Rama-(indistinct) dāsa. A foreword in his name has appeared in this book—which he says he never gave. He never gave that foreword, but his name was given. And he has also published this in paper, and the author of that book has not challenged it so far. So his hands seem to be...

Prabhupāda: What he is, the author?

Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa Caitanya dāsa.

Prabhupāda: No, what he is? Is he professor or what?

Indian man (2): No, he's not a professor. He's just a sādaka, you see, interested in reading and writing.

Gurudāsa: So if he will put the name on any foreword, then he can also create any theory. If that man did not give the foreword and he has put the name, he will create any theory.

Indian man (2): Yes, of course, that's what he is up to. That's what he is up to.

Gurudāsa: And if someone doubts that, then they're not strong followers of Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Indian man (2): Yes. That is a great thing against him.

Gurudāsa: How can you doubt the authority?

Indian man (2): I think he has got certain preconceptions in his mind and, you see, he just tries to prove them by collecting all sorts of data that will just fit into his point of view.

Prabhupāda: Just like Gandhi wanted to prove nonviolence from Gītā.

Indian man (2): From Gītā. No, not like that. I would say like Brindarkara(?) wanted to prove that the..., that Kṛṣṇa story and Kṛṣṇa religion had been borrowed from West, you see, and they are a copy of Christ religion. Brindarkara has never done that.

Prabhupāda: What is that? (end)