Room Conversation With Son (Vrindavan De) -- July 5, 1977, Vrndavana
Prabhupāda: "Probably," "perhaps." Why Darwin's theory is full of this "perhaps," "probably," "millions of years"? What is this nonsense knowledge? Is that knowledge? A mortal man is suggesting "millions of years" and "perhaps," "probably." And that's science. I never liked this.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Never.
Prabhupāda: That is my disease.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in your school days. How did you feel about when they taught Darwin when you were in school?
Prabhupāda: We were never taught. But in our college days one professor, Dr. Kalidas Nahan(?), he was sometimes speaking in relation with history, "pre—historic age," that. But I did not take it very seriously. He was speaking about some anthropology. But he was very... No, historians, they must be very intelligent. And they must refer to this Darwin's theory.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to rewrite the history books. Your Bhāgavatam is actually rewriting history, universal history.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have many times said that this is universal history.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, you mentioned, "This is not done according to the time chronology or place. Many events have taken place on other planets." That you mention in the First Canto. That was very appealing to me.
Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa incarnation appears according to the particular planet and climate, er, planet. Just like churning. That is in higher planetary system. There are persons like that. It is not improper. And we are comparing with us, that "We cannot churn. Therefore there is no churning." That is our disease, to simply compare with our position.
Upendra: Self-centered.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even in this planet, in different places there are different standard. In the ocean, then the standard is different from this standard.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. You said, just like in Africa there are seven-foot-tall people.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Giants.
Prabhupāda: In Japan, when I went there for... (aside:) Here. The house, it was so low that "How they live here?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was that when we went to Dai Nippon that time?
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, Dai Nippon has good building.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean is that the time?
Prabhupāda: Yes. "What is this? Why so low?" (laughs) I was...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Paper house. You were living in a paper house.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I was feeling very uncomfortable.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Insecure in that position. Everyone was cooking nasty things.
Prabhupāda: Within this house, within this room, a palace is made in Japan.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was there for quite a while, Śatadhanya Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With Trivikrama Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Very short places. Park, (laughs) a nonsense park. A rough hill is a park. You remember?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Um hm.
Prabhupāda: All ordinary huts, general people.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. But one thing we noticed, that... I remember we had a discussion that there was less fighting amongst the people.
Prabhupāda: They are peaceful.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they're peaceful, you said.
Prabhupāda: Indian culture.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You remember that lady? You were walking and some old lady, she didn't know you, but just by your dress and the way you were walking...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...she offered her respects.
Prabhupāda: Yes. On the whole, they are good. Culture is Indian.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eastern culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But they are imitating.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Dr. Sharma is waiting outside. Should I go back to him?
Prabhupāda: Um hm. (aside:) You can go out. [break] ...but still, I have given you chance. So you want simply... Just like a widow. We... But we want that you may not be disturbed. Go ahead. Do business and have big building. Everyone's constructing big, big building, Marwaris. Why you cannot do? You have been given all chance. Yogināṁ puruṣam upaiti lakṣmīm. Unless one is dedicated, a yogi, very endeavoring... So we have showed a yogi endeavoring. Seventy years old, I was here in Vṛndāvana, and I came. For ten years I worked! Now see. All over the world I have got hundreds of buildings like this. I am the same man. At least one hundred temples we have only by working ten years. So there must be capacity, there must be endeavor, there must be good fortune. Then everything will be... It is not that you simply desire and it will drop from the sky. That is not possible. Hm? Arjuna fought the Battle of Kurukṣetra. Kṛṣṇa never advised him, "No, I am your friend. I shall do everything. You sit down and sleep." "You have to fight!" And Kṛṣṇa is merciful. He gives him... The two things required. Utsāhān dhairyāt niścayāt tat-tat-karma-pravart... If you have no capacity, you cannot expect to become very rich or learned, or very... That is not possible. It is not your capacity. Just like within this land there is gold, but you have to dig it. That is mine. And if you smell, "Ah, there is gold here," will you get gold? You are fortunate. You have got a place. Here is gold. But you have to dig it. You have to work. "No, I shall smell, and gold will come." That is not... So don't be worried. You'll be allowed to stay here. But I cannot transfer the property to your mother's name. Then your brother will spoil. And otherwise you are... I am not going to lease them.
Vrindavan De: No, (Bengali) in mother's absence.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Vrindavan De: In mother's absence (Bengali).
Prabhupāda: No, mother absence, that is... Father... You... Not only your mother; you can live here.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The letter that you dictated says that for the lifetime...
Prabhupāda: Lifetime. You can live, every one of you. So long you live, you can live.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says, "I beg to assure you, that during lifetime..." (Bengali )
Prabhupāda: You are doing business. (Bengali conversation) Why you should remain in that flat with two, three rooms? That ambition is not there. That endeavor is not there. (Bengali)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda started with forty rupees.
Prabhupāda: I went to... You know. So in what way I went? With a tin box and some literature. And how I have come back? You rascal, you have no eyes to see. You have seen how I went and how I came back. This is practical. I worked for this. I labored for it. It all depends on one's capacity. Otherwise immediately I'll give you charge. You cannot do here anything. So you'll get this letter. That's assurance. (Bengali) Keep it as document. That's all. I'll stamp it. All right, I shall meet again with you. Give him that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda takes his massage now. [break]
Prabhupāda: I have heard that still he is keeping, "I am devotee of Kṛṣṇa," still, in this fallen condition. How (indistinct). Take this. [break] Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. It is great ocean of such glory. Tad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says, "Now it is again possible for us to think, to act. Our senses have regained their consciousness, enabling us to expand the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by selling more..." [break] He says, "We pray that your health may continue for years to come so you may conquer the whole world by your pure devotion and you may continue to bless us more and more so that we may be instrumental in this work. I am your puppet. You are controlling the strings. Make me dance as you like. I am simply awaiting the tugs of your lotuslike hands upon my strings. I would like to make a report of the activities here. Eastern Europe..." [break]
Prabhupāda: Where I landed in your country there is a storehouse of lobster. They have become so rotten that some of them are coming like pus.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pus is coming out?
Prabhupāda: Not pus, but the lobster has become so spoiled that it had become like pus, and they're eating that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They consider that a delicacy.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And for cow, they must be killed. They are taking delicacy, pus. (laughs) There's no danger.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mad civilization. It is a mad society. They eat anything.
Prabhupāda: One gentleman was taking the lobster, some preparation, liquid.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were observing this on your arrival in Boston harbor?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's where the lobsters are kept, near the harbor. Nowadays the fashion is that you go to a seafood restaurant, and they keep the lobster...
Prabhupāda: The lobsters, I do not know. They take it from Indian foods. It is from Cochin. Cochin, South India. I do not know... Huge quantity of lobsters are there, and they are exported to America.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, they also have them in America, Prabhupāda. There's a lot of them in the whole eastern seaboard.
Prabhupāda: But in India, they take fresh, lobster.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They do that in America sometimes in the so-called high-class restaurants. You choose your lobster, and then you sit down and they boil it alive.
Prabhupāda: Fresh.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They put them in live in the boiling water. The people who do that, they have to become a lobster and have the same fate? I think we'd better distribute a lot of your books to inform these people.
Prabhupāda: In India they make lobster and loki .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And loki?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. They mix the two.
Prabhupāda: It becomes a very palatable delicacy. Lauciṁṛi.(?)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengalis are very fond?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still, there is nothing so palatable as nice prasādam .
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa baṛo doyāmoy. From milk you can make. From ḍāl. Urad ḍāl.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Grains.
Prabhupāda: Jackfruit, this banana. Then banana fruit... Banana, what is called? Flour.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Banana flour.
Prabhupāda: If it is made properly, you can taste lobster.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I noticed that some of these different things... Just like jackfruit.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Jackfruit, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Similarly, if it's cooked in a particular way...
Prabhupāda: Jackfruit is also called "vegetable meat."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Vegetable meat."
Prabhupāda: Lajpata.(?) Or a vegetable mutton. During my daughter's marriage, the hired cook, they made from this flour of banana, cutlet. Nobody could understand that it is vegetable.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were present at that time?
Prabhupāda: No, no, I did not allow to cook fish, so the guests were given that vegetable cutlet. And they could not understand.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were satisfied.
Prabhupāda: They said, "We could not understand that it is vegetable."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They must have been laughing.
Prabhupāda: Later on, after eating.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some of them were fish-eaters.
Prabhupāda: Fish-eaters? Ninety-nine (percent).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Harikeśa's report was very encouraging.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All over the world the reports are all encouraging.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. (long pause)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think we should wait another day for that Lassicks(?) tablets.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Until you're over your cold, it's better not to take anything strong. That Lassicks(?) is like a brahmāstra. It's like an ultimate weapon. It should only be used as a last resort.
Prabhupāda: Atomic bomb.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. But not... Unlike the brahmāstra, it cannot be withdrawn. Once it's taken, it has to act. We've been studying the course of the sun daily now. We're reading that chapter. And Bhakti-prema Swami... There's a library in Vṛndāvana. All the books... Perhaps you know. It's over the Post Office in Loi Bazaar.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the books from Rādhā-Dāmodara temple, those original texts, they're all there. So he's going to consult your Guru Mahārāja's book on... The astronomy book? What is the name of that book?
Prabhupāda: Sūrya-siddhānta.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are going to consult some other texts to get the full picture.
Prabhupāda: And what is from Bhāgavata? The sun movement?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just like there's a couple of things that we want to get very clear. Like it's described that one of the axles...
Prabhupāda: Uttarāyaṇa, dakṣiṇāyana. This Sumeru Mountain... So six months, northern side; six months, southern side.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Some things are quite clear. Then there's a description, though, that there's an axle, it's described, a tie made of wind going from the chariot to Dhruvaloka. So things like that we want to get a..., further information on. Just so that it can be somehow demonstrated. Our... To understand these things for the purpose of making an exhibit requires a very clear picture. So that's the only reason we're looking to other books. But only bona fide books. The ācāryas' commentaries, like that. And then it has to agree with the Bhāgavatam. If in any way there's a discrepancy, we choose the Bhāgavatam as the authority.
Prabhupāda: On the whole, the sun is not fixed up.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, not at all. It's moving. As a matter of fact, it describes sometimes it moves in one way with Meru at its right side, and then sometimes it moves the other way with Meru at its left side.
Prabhupāda: That is dakṣiṇāyana-mārga, dakṣiṇāyanam, uttarāyaṇa.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very much moving and at very high speed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I calculated sixteen thousand miles per second, so far I remember.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I think that's right.
Prabhupāda: And it is Sūryaloka. It has population.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All of the personalities there have very dazzling bodies.
Prabhupāda: Fiery body.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With the help of this planetarium, people will actually be able to go to the moon for the first time, at least by their minds. There was such a hoax that I heard they were even selling tickets to go to the moon.
Prabhupāda: Hm. (pause)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you're feeling tired, maybe you'd like to take a little rest, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's still early now.
Prabhupāda: Hm. I have been taking rest in... [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are all rascals and they're all crazy.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The karmīs. They don't know what is what. They don't know what is good for them. If they have their choice, they won't immediately talk with a devotee. But we are like the doctors. We don't consider what the patient says. Somehow we have to administer the medicine because we know it will be good for them. There's a letter that just came from Satsvarūpa.
Prabhupāda: Have my keys...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And... Should I bring it? Actually I was going to read it to you later when you asked for some new... He says, "Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, please accept my humble obeisances at your lotus feet." [break] He says, "In addition to my duties, everything is going nicely." [break]
Prabhupāda: (coughs) These two ślokas are guide in this connection, in Bhāgavata.
tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo
yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api
nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni yat
śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ
SB 1.5.11
And just the other:
na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo
jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit
tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā...
SB 1.5.10
Like that. These two ślokas are guide. And there... It is explained there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "Actually in America, when you criticize someone who is highly regarded, people are very interested to read it. That is the American spirit. So I think by purposely singling out historical figures who are considered good welfare workers and showing that actually their welfare platform failed, it will make interesting reading and will help to establish the real platform of welfare in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I also want very much to write this book on men..." And then it says here, he says, "I... We decided on a number of historical figures. Because they lacked Kṛṣṇa in their philosophy and activities, their program for welfare failed. I want to deal with the figure of Mahatma Gandhi and also with the daridra-nārāyaṇa philosophy which was taught before his time by Ramakrishna and Vivekananda." He says, "When viewed in the light of Bhāgavata philosophy, these personalities will have to be criticized for their failure to put Kṛṣṇa in their teachings. My question is whether there is any objection on your part to a book which will criticize Ramakrishna and Vivekananda."
Prabhupāda: I think that is not good. You should go positively instead of attacking some particular person. They will never admit that they have been failure.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, but we can prove that they are. See, his whole point of his book is that he wants to attack others.
Prabhupāda: No. That will not be good. That will create a section of enemy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what he's asking. He thought it would...
Prabhupāda: Satyaṁ vada mā likha. You can criticize them with your mouth, but don't put into writing. That will create a section of enemy. Then we'll have to fight with the enemy one after another. That will be wasting of time and energy. What is the use of criticizing them? They are failure. Failure. Finish. Let us prove by action that all others are failures. And they will be automatically. Just like the Bala-yogi is failure now. (chuckles) Whatever it is. The Transcendental Meditation is going to be failure. And so many others. To criticize them means to give them some importance, that "the rival to Hare Kṛṣṇa." We don't care for them. We go on positively, and automatically they are failure.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, every time I've seen a reporter say, "Swamiji, what do you think about so and so?" you said, "I do not know about such persons."
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And immediately that person becomes very unimportant. You don't even know about him.
Śatadhanya: And then you'd begin to preach.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. He... Actually he already thought of what you're saying. He says, "I think there is no harm in writing about Gandhi..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, it is waste of time. Don't write such book.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. He says, "In addition, I plan to write on other highly regarded welfare workers such as the American Civil Rights worker Martin Luther King." Boy, if he does that, every black person in America will hate us. It'll create many enemies. This book will be the biggest enemy-creator. We already have enough enemies.
Prabhupāda: That will be embarrassment. Yes, I said, "I do not know this." Bas. Finished. And that means it is not so important that I should know it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.
Prabhupāda: Unless something is important, why shall I try to understand it? It is all useless. Actually that is. Our criterion is, as soon as we see one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is rejected. He is nothing. He has no value. That is our criterion. Just like the other day he was opening that book of geography.
Śatadhanya: Oh, yes. When you opened the book of maps.
Upendra: World Atlas.
Prabhupāda: I rejected immediately. What is this nonsense? Why shall I refer to it? "Probably." Finished, one word. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate:(?) "A mūrkha, a rascal, is beautiful so long he does not speak. As soon as he speaks, we understand where he is." Bas. Just like you're cooking rice. You take one rice and press it. If it is not soft, oh, whole rice is not. If it is not soft, it is not yet cooked. Similarly, one word will give his identity. As soon as he says "Probably," finished. Why shall I take trouble?
Upendra: In all of your books there's not that word.
Śatadhanya: That way we avoid wasting time.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Probably," "maybe," "in millions of years."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We call that "closet talk." That means when you start talking like that, we advise him to go into the closet and close the door. Then only they will have to hear it.
Prabhupāda: We take Kṛṣṇa's word. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante... BG 7.15. [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very positive. He says, "One additional note. Our Library Party in America recently attended the annual convention of the largest organization of libraries." That's called the American Library Association. It's made up of all of the libraries in the US, and it's the most prestigious library association. "At this convention, the booth of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust won the first prize..."
Prabhupāda: Just see. This is our triumph.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "...for the most attractive booth. And a plaque was awarded to our representative, Śeṣa dāsa." He was called up in front of all of the gathering of librarians. They awarded him a plaque. "He had the booth arranged with a portable movie projector showing one of the ISKCON films. Incense was burning, Indian sweets were distributed, and all your books were displayed as well as tapes. So it was nice that such a big organization recognized Kṛṣṇa was all-attractive."
Prabhupāda: That's the kind of propaganda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Four hundred booths competed, four hundred publishers.
Prabhupāda: And we became first.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were first.
Prabhupāda: Just see. This is triumph.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually these others, when they try and sell their books, it's all nothing.
Prabhupāda: There is a proverb in Bengali, chuṅco mere hata gandha. (?) What is called that chuṅco ? It is like a rat, but a mouth is... They are different class.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Like a rat, but...
Prabhupāda: Different class.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The mouth is long?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very long? Are you speaking of ant-eater? They eat ants?
Prabhupāda: I do not know. But that animal is called chuṅco. (makes whispering sound) "Chuchu, chuchu."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Squirrel.
Prabhupāda: No, a squirrel is different.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chuṅco? It's called chuṅco ?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It makes that sound.
Prabhupāda: So if you kill, then your hand becomes bad flavor.
Śatadhanya: Bad smell. Skunk.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Skunk.
Śatadhanya: He has stripe on back.
Prabhupāda: Huh? So chuṅco mere hata gandha. So if you want to kill, then your hand will be bad flavor.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh.
Prabhupāda: We don't want to touch them even. I never did so.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He got a review already on his book. This is from the... It's called Books West.
Prabhupāda: Keep your position respectable. Don't create many enemies. It is very simple. Why should I try to understand the rascal Gandhi philosophy and Ramakrishna? I take it from the beginning, they're useless. Why shall I waste my time? I know it is useless. They'll require superficial touch, no important. I therefore say in every..., "I do not know who is this."
Śatadhanya: Just like one reporter, he asked Bhavānanda Mahārāja what he thinks of Vivekananda. So he said, "Who is that? I don't know." And he was very surprised. He said, "You do not know?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, "Maybe he was important here, but we never heard of him in America."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That is sufficient.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So this is a review. "From Books West: A magazine of the book trade, from June 1977." It says, " Readings in Vedic Literature: the Tradition Speaks for Itself, by Satsvarūpa dāsa Goswami..."
Prabhupāda: So this kind of, that "I do not know who is Vivekananda." "Oh! You do not know?" Then you can know what he is. Then he can say, "This is his philosophy." Then you criticize, "This is nonsense!" Let him present Vivekananda's philosophy and smash it. Let the other party present Gandhi's philosophy and you crush it by kicking. That is the opportunity. Otherwise it will be the same philosophy, to kill that... What is that animal?
Devotees: Skunk.
Prabhupāda: Skunk, and the hand becomes badly flavored. Hm? [break] Therefore three books, Bhagavad-gītā ... All my other small books, they are also on the basis. That Topmost Yoga, it is based on Bhagavad-gītā in a different name. Easy Journey to Other Planets is based on Bhagavad-gītā in a different name. Why shall I waste? I don't want to waste time. In this condition of life I try to write book because I do not try to waste my time. All right, I am not having sleep. Let me try at night. If I can write one, two lines, that's all right. I don't want to read any other book or criticize or play. Waste of time. What is that first verse? Kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ. Where it is?
Śatadhanya: That's from Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hm. Just see. You do not read. Find. Bring Bhāgavata, the first part. (coughs)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the verse?
Prabhupāda: Kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ. First of all, first chapter. First chapter, second verse.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The second verse of the first chapter.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:
dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ
vedyaṁ vāstavam atra vastu śivadaṁ tāpa-trayonmūlanam
śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā parair īśvaraḥ
sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt
SB 1.1.2
Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte, then?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahā-muni-kṛte kiṁ vā parair īśvaraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Kiṁ vā paraiḥ: "What is the use of other śāstra ? Here is the essence of śāstra given by Mahāmuni Vyāsadeva. Take it." That is final.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Says that all others are kicked out.
Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra SB 1.1.2 . All cheating. So if I know... Just like Vivekananda is cheating. Gandhi is cheating. He is cheating. Why shall I waste my time? Actually they are cheating. What do they know about religion? Therefore in the beginning, "I do not know this man."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It really takes the air out of their sails. It really diminishes their position to say that, more than anything else, when you say, "I don't know who they are. Who is that you're talking about? Never heard his name."
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is sufficient.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the worst thing you could say about them. There's a very good article he sent. I should read you this review first. The article is also very good. It says, "New religious movements considered likely to last." Now the American people are recognizing. Of course, this is a general article, not specifically about us. But they're understanding that these religions are not going to be driven away. Anyway, this review says, "When it comes to Hindu scripture, the Hare Kṛṣṇas are unabashed fundamentalists." That's a good credit. That's a very good certification, "Unabashed fundamentalists."
Prabhupāda: Unabash, or unbast?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unabashed.
Prabhupāda: What is?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It means without any doubt, without any holding back. Completely outspokenly fundamentalists, very conventional.
Śatadhanya: That means we strictly adhere to the śāstra.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "In their view, controverted by most Western scholars..." Most Western scholars are in controversy with us about our view. "The basic Vedic documents form a constant theistic doctrine first presented to mankind five thousand years ago."
Prabhupāda: Just see. Such a good certificate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Satsvarūpa, American-born personal secretary to Swami Bhaktivedanta, presents the official Hare Kṛṣṇa approach." They don't even identify you. They know who you are. You are so well known in these literary circles now that someone says, "Swami Bhaktivedanta." They don't have to say "Founder of ISKCON." They know already from your other books. "...presents the official Hare Kṛṣṇa approach in an articulate and highly serviceable introduction to this immense body of literature. The readings include the Īśopaniṣad, the Bhagavad-gītā and excerpts from Purāṇas, supplemented with a glossary and index. Preliminary essays detail the logic by which his group rejects both the academic experts and the rival approach of advaita-vedānta that Westerners know through the writings of Vivekananda and Radhakrishnan. This is a book long needed to balance out the monist theology that is but one aspect of Indian religious thought." In other words, this is one of the first books to present the Vaiṣṇava viewpoint, not simply the Māyāvādī viewpoint. He says, "It's well needed." That's all he's written.
Prabhupāda: Very appreciated. Very much appreciate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Satsvarūpa writes that this will very much help the... He says it will help its sales in America. Then this article...
Prabhupāda: It is very thoughtful article.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That... This?
Prabhupāda: No. That you were reading.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, yeah. I don't want to have to make you hear the whole thing because there's not enough about us. But I can read a little bit of it to give an idea. "There are signs here and elsewhere across the country that the youth-oriented religious sects that sprang into existence a few years ago are gaining a foothold for an enduring future. The emergence of a wide assortment of spiritual movements, from Eastern religions to Jesus people..."
Prabhupāda: If we introduce this Ratha-yātrā in every city, all other religions will be finished. (laughs) Eh?
Upendra: Yes, Prabhupāda. In San Francisco there's nothing. The only thing in San Francisco is the Chinese Parade people come for. And the next thing is Ratha-yātrā. It is bigger than the Chinese parade, the Ratha-yātrā.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here...
Prabhupāda: Ratha-yātrā is highly demonstrative. And what Chinese parade?
Upendra: One dragon only.
Prabhupāda: Childish. What dragon will help?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole article is more or less... It's not really worth reading the whole thing. It's mainly about that they're here to stay. It mentions Hare Kṛṣṇa. It says, "After nearly a decade of this ferment, the underlying question is whether these new groups will last. The answer appears to be that most of them, though faced with high attrition rates and continuing obstacles to survival, have retained a small but sufficient core of devoted followers and are acquiring the resources needed to continue their work." It mentions that there are a number of court battles, including members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Ours is the first group they mention.
Prabhupāda: That, it does not mention about the Transcendental Meditation?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they never mention. There's nothing... They don't get taken to court, Transcendental Meditation, because there's really no... They don't demand anything of their followers. They just say, "Every day take off fifteen minutes and sleep," or something.
Śatadhanya: They have no philosophy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's nothing. There's nothing to anger anybody. Simply the main thing is that it's a big hoax. So now it's being investigated by the...
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. It's being investigated by a Congressional subcommittee in America now, Transcendental Meditation. But there's no individual parents getting angry because it doesn't change anything.
Prabhupāda: No.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't make you change any different. Actually no one even recognizes any difference after following it. They're fools to begin with, and they come out fools at the end. It says here, it quotes Dr. Stillson Judah. Unfortunately it doesn't quote Dr. Stillson Judah right about us. It seems that Stillson Judah has also written a book about Moon. So it's quoting, "Stillson Judah of the Graduate Theological Union shows a small core of membership, three thousand in the case of the Moonies." It says here that "But through persistent evangelic efforts these groups are winning new converts and attain fiscal stability."
Prabhupāda: I think that Maharishi is therefore in Hrishikesh. He's afraid of being arrested or something like that.
Śatadhanya: He's hiding.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here that "The Moon people expect to discontinue street sales of candy and other items in three years, hoping to have become totally reliant upon businesses by then." See, we go out, and we distribute our books, and we use, you know, things like candy or incense as a...
Prabhupāda: Introduction.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...introduction. So we were imitated by all the other groups. But the only difference is that's all they have is the introduction. They don't come with the book at the end. All they do is sell candy and the incense to get money. So groups like the Moonies, they want to discontinue this. In place, they want to make big businesses just like the Christians have. And nobody will be on the street anymore.
Prabhupāda: Even gambling.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, anything. It doesn't matter what it is. For example... I was reading a report about them. So just like we have our saṅkīrtana parties and each, like five or six men in a van go out, they also have vans like that. But each van they have one Korean woman with each van. They say she keeps the accounts. That was the explanation. But it's obvious that she's a prostitute. It's very clear. So they do anything. They have no scruples or principles. So at any rate, the thing I feel about this is that we take pride in saying that we are on the streets now and we'll always be on the streets because our business is selling books. We're not going to depend on some big business and then stop our preaching. They are not preaching. This proves that what they do on the street is not preaching. They're simply collecting money.
Prabhupāda: They have nothing to preach. What they have got to preach?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's a picture. It shows only two pictures. Here is the difference between the Moonies and us. Here is a picture of some Moon woman. She has a picture of Moon on her button and her daughter waving the American flag. And then here's us, the devotees. "Hare Kṛṣṇa followers parade on the street." This is in New York. These are some of the New York devotees. "The drop-out rate is high, but there is a slow though steady growth rate among the small membership." This is from the New York Times. I know all these devotees.
Prabhupāda: Slow but sure.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. "Slow but steady growth rate." There's quite a difference. What does this have to do with anything, having an American flag? This is our trademark, this shaved head.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shaved head and tilaka. They all have tilaka, and beadbags. And everyone is happy here.
Prabhupāda: So there is some agitation about our movement, that "How it is going on, whether it will stay." So anything more?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's just... These are all signs that our movement is here to stay.
Prabhupāda: It will stay.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, "Aid the Fresh Air Fund." This is a fund. They collect millions of dollars for keeping the air fresh. But they never think why the air has become unfresh due to all these foolish industries pumping so many obnoxious things into the air. That they won't stop. But they'll devise new machines to clean the air.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So here is one of the machine. That we are creating, the farms. Air fresh.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is fresh air.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes when you go to the farm... I would go there every week. I would immediately become... The air is so clean that it makes you exhausted to breathe it almost. You're not even used to it. You get so much...
Prabhupāda: Immediately you become refresh, immediately, as soon as you see the fresh milk, fresh vegetables.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember how you felt when you came there? You liked it very much. You got a big appetite when you went there.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. Well, this is my condition. I would have... Otherwise I would have gone there. Very nice and fresh.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's time for your massage, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Now we shall go.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'll be over by... [break]
Prabhupāda: Human form of body or in the form of this insect. And karmīs, they're trying to improve their... (microphone moving) That is their ignorance.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They never get tired of trying.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They think by changing the body... (microphone moving) ...demigod's... That is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra. The facility is in that you have to die, you have to take again birth and again begin the same tasting, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam. No improvement of taste but improvement of the container. If you go by bullock cart and if you go by motorcar, the transport is the same. But we are thinking, "Now we have improved scientific." That's all. First of all improve that you'll not die. Because you are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre BG 2.20 . So where is that improvement? That improvement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma BG 2.20 .
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today in the class we read a purport of Your Divine Grace's from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, a very beautiful purport in which the verse says that Bhārata-varṣa is karma-kṣetra. It is the place for fruitive activities. And the other varṣas is where you enjoy the results of those activities. So then you explain the verse, that how the living entity is wandering all over the material universe, but actually he has not improved his condition at all. It is... You explain that it's simply a waste of time. He's not using his human form of life. So when you come on this planet, you should use it to get a guru. Otherwise, simply wandering up and down, up and down.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān CC Madhya 19.151 . This information is obtained by the most fortunate person. What is the use of wandering in this way?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That verse was in the purport. You quoted it there also.
Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. Foolish persons are trying to improve. So what is that improvement? The same struggle for existence.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. I use that "survival of the fittest," I said, "But who is fit?"
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What you had said the other... And then I told them, "The four-legged..."
Prabhupāda: Four-legged dog race.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dog race.
Prabhupāda: It is a great poison. Only fortunate person, they can understand what is the value of Kṛṣṇa, only fortunate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But it says, guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya, bhakti-latā-bīja CC Madhya 19.151 . So it's fortunate because the guru gives the...
Prabhupāda: So that fortune is... By fortune he gets a guru. And by the instruction of guru he gets Kṛṣṇa. So to create fortune we have to take this regulative principle, to become fortunate that someday he'll be able to meet somebody who is real guru and who will give him real guidance. "Man is the architect of his own fortune." Therefore pious activities and other things, y ajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyā, these things are recommended, to acquire the qualities of brāhmaṇa. These things are required. If he remains like animal, that fortune will never come. This is the architecture. So that fortune begins when he enters the varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas and four āśramas. That is a easiest way. Fortune does not come that "This is very important. Man is the architect of his own fortune." He must accept some process to become fortunate. And if you want to become fortunate through the rich man, you should enter... (microphone moving) ...just like businessman... (microphone moving) And without doing something, how you can get fortune? That is now... There is no such program. The program is just a animal program: eating, sleeping, mating and defend. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important, to give them the fortune, not immediately but our immediate future, by acting in this way, he'll be fortunate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have to show the example of how to act.
Prabhupāda: That is there, the rules and regulations. This Deity worship is accepting regulative principle, abide by the orders of guru . That is there. This is the process. Just like all our disciples, they write that "We have got now life." Because they are trying to follow, they are getting-gradually, gradually.
ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva
guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja
CC Madhya 19.151
mālī hañā kare sei bīja āropaṇa
śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana
CC Madhya 19.152
It is like a creeper. So you get the seed from guru and sow it and regularly pour water. That watering is śravaṇa-kīrtana. Śravaṇa-kīrtana-jale karaye secana. How simplified.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In this age Caitanya Mahāprabhu has made everything very simplified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Patitānāṁ pāvanebhyaḥ. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi-mādhāi, brajendra-nandana jei, śaci-suta hoilo sei. Kṛṣṇa is coming. He has come as Caitanya Mahāprabhu to deliver these pāpīs and tāpīs. Whole process is scientific. It is not (laughs) the Ramakrishna, Vivekananda. It is not that. What do they know? Or Gandhi. They are also trying for the betterment, but they do not accept the standard process. Everyone is trying. That is struggle for existence. So who is fittest? The fittest is the devotee. He'll survive. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma BG 4.9 . I have now explained how Kṛṣṇa became subordinate to devotee. (turns on dictaphone, plays back from tape:) "Yamarāja, controller of all living entities, is afraid of the order of Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother's stick. This contradictory thing cannot be understood by one who is not devotee. Devotee can understand how much powerful is unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa, so much so He can be controlled by such devotee. Bhṛtya-vaśyata. That means under the control of the servant, but He is under the control of pure love by the servant. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, we see, Kṛṣṇa became the chariot driver of Arjuna. Arjuna is ordering Him, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta BG 4.9 . Here Kṛṣṇa has agreed... [break] '...my chariot...' [break] '...to execute my order. Place my chariot between the two party soldiers.' Kṛṣṇa immediately executed his order. One may argue in this connection that Kṛṣṇa is also not independent. This is ajñāna, ignorance. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. When He becomes subordinate to the devotees He is ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Humor of transcendental qualities increases transcendental pleasure. One who worships Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore sometimes desires to be controlled by somebody controller. Nobody else... [break] ...pure devotee." (end of tape playback section) Everyone worships Him as the Supreme, but sometimes He desires, "Somebody will control over."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your purports have such wonderful realization. They are completely nectar to read and hear.
Prabhupāda: That I say.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today the one question was asked in the class that "Isn't it true that as one makes advancement, māyā will put up so many obstructions, even more as the devotee advances?" So I answered by saying that "In the case of a pure devotee, māyā realizes that there is no need to challenge, because māyā is the servant of Kṛṣṇa. So when someone is fully devoted, just like Śrīla Prabhupāda, then māyā cannot touch, and she knows that he will use everything in Kṛṣṇa's service, so there is no need to put up any obstacle, and all facilities are given to the pure devotee for using everything in Kṛṣṇa's service."
Prabhupāda: So I can stop?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Gurukula boys are waiting to greet you with kīrtana. They can come in?
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Anyway, don't be sorry.
Vrindavan De: No, no. It will be (Bengali).
Prabhupāda: So what you have paid for you coming and going? What is the amount?
Vrindavan De: (Bengali)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: From the Mathurā station?
Prabhupāda: No, no. From Calcutta to here. Ticket, what is?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something like about... The ticket's about fifty-six...
Prabhupāda: [break] ...the modern kīrtana. Kīrtanāt... [break] "We shall improve our economic condition for more and more sense gratification." And that is the mistake. People are trying for that. Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā SB 1.2.10 . Yāvad artha-prayojanam. Whatever money is required for maintaining, that's all. And as soon as we increase the so-called standard of happiness by sense gratification, then there is trouble. That is going on all over the world. They want money. They're not satis... "More money. More money. More money." Why more money? If you can live comfortably with certain amount of money, be satisfied in that way. Why more?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unnecessary.
Prabhupāda: Unnecessary, and increase anxiety.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The worries increase.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why more? Live very comfortably and be advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How much can you eat more than your share?
Prabhupāda: We have seen many persons... The other day, he was our member. One Mr. Agarwal? Very rich man. He committed suicide falling down from the bridge to the Ganges. What is that? Very rich man. The happiness cannot be attained in that way. Happiness is in Kṛṣṇa. It is so sublime that... Dhruva Mahārāja went for kingdom, and he performed austerities. When he saw Kṛṣṇa he said, "I don't want anything." Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: CC Madhya 22.42 "I came to ask You something, but I am now fully satisfied." That is happiness. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir... yayātmā supra... CC Madhya 22.42. You want to satisfy your ātmā. So that can be satisfied when you are fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise simply by material wealth, increasing your economic position, that is not... They do not know it. The European civilization, they are struggling very hard-colonization, industrialization, this... (end)