770621 - Conversation - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770621R1-VRNDAVAN - June 21, 1977 - 80:11 Minutes

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . in winter months, even though we keep it to a minimum, the oil bill runs about eight thousand dollars a month. It's very costly. Because one time we tried to turn it off, and it was very dangerous. They warned us never to do that again, because if the pipe freezes, the whole thing will explode. Therefore we have to always keep some steam coming so that it never freezes. We can't turn it off for ten hours and then turn it on again. We were thinking we could do that. That we may do in each room, but down in the boiler room we must keep the boiler going.

Prabhupāda: And in summer shut off.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. We have . . . we hired a man. There was man working there for four years. They were paying six hundred dollars. So we kept him for the first year until . . . we had one man stay with him. We have one devotee, he's a plumber. He's very good man. And he learned from him everything about the boiler for one year. And then we let that man go, and we have our own man running it. And there has to be a man twenty-four hours a day, sitting with the boiler.

Prabhupāda: That means you have to change.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, we have to change. One man is expert. He knows how to run. The other men, they simply watch the gauges to see that . . . because the gauges indicate if everything's okay. If anything ever goes wrong, then they call that man. He's a maintenance man. He's very good.

Prabhupāda: So where do they supply oil?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oil? There are companies that sell you oil. I don't know what the rate is.

Prabhupāda: What is that oil? Petrol?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's crude . . . it's something like crude oil, I think. I'm not sure, Prabhupāda. They just call it oil.

Prabhupāda: Not vegetable oil.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, no. It's a crude type of oil, brown.

Prabhupāda: Grease.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's a grease. It's for burning, though. Eight thousand dollars a month, nine thousand dollars . . . and that elevator, three thousand dollars.

Prabhupāda: Eleven?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The elevator charge, for the electricity, twenty-five hundred dollars a month. It's not a joke to run a building of that size. That's why in New York to have . . . own a building in that location they get a very good rent. Every apartment, say, a two-and-half-room apartment, 250, 300 dollars per month.

Prabhupāda: USA.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And we have three hundred rooms. It would fetch . . . if it was divided up as an all-apartment building, it would make very . . . lot of money. To run a building like that . . . it's very prestigious. Even though it's not a new building, still, it is prestigious. People are impressed. Many Indian people come there—from India—at night. A number of officials came, and they were all very . . . they said: "Oh, we didn't know you had such a building like this." They said like that. They were very impressed. And they liked the . . . they were very much impressed with the temple room and the restaurant and the general size of the building. Those three features are impressive. The restaurant they're very impressed by, pure vegetarian prasādam served with a restaurant atmosphere.

Prabhupāda: And so palatable.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very palatable. They're quite impressed. Purīs, samosās, kacaurīs . . . they couldn't dream to come to New York and get these things. Therefore they eat meat. They think it's not available. There's only one other pure vegetarian restaurant in New York.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Besides ours, there's only one other Indian pure vegetarian restaurant. And it's always packed. Indian people want vegetarian. But we . . . on the other hand, we only get . . . about one third of our customers are Indian. Mostly we get Americans. The businessmen come, and the secretaries, theater people, families.

Prabhupāda: They like prasādam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, very much. Because vegetarian is becoming now a very popular thing. People are thinking that it is more healthy to eat vegetarian. They call it health food. It's called health food. In fact, they have places called "Health food bar." Instead of getting a whiskey, they get carrot juice, like that. People come . . . they comes sometimes just for one glass of juice. And they'll pay dollar and a half, any price. They'll pay anything in America. If you know how to sell it, you can ask any price. Now, this month of June, now the prasādam carts will be doing more and more, all day long, because New York . . .

Prabhupāda: No, I have seen. They are always busy. Always.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In our New York building we have two elevators. And that impresses people when they come there to see. If you own a building with two elevators in it, it's a big thing.

Prabhupāda: It goes up to the roof.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And the roof is quite nice. When the viewers see . . .

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were sitting on it. Prabhupāda would sit up there in the evening, and he even took massage sometimes. The most . . . excuse me, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Very nice roof.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The special feature of that roof is that for some reason there are no tall buildings around our building. Sometimes people say: "Your movement has come a long way from Second Avenue."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they say . . . there's couple people that even went to your place on 26 Second Avenue. They say: "This movement has come a long way in ten years, from Second Avenue." They remember you sitting there. On Sundays in New York they have the Love Feast. So the average, they get about seven hundred people come. Six to eight hundred is an average crowd on a Sunday. And they serve the . . . they have simultaneously activities on the five different floors . . . four different floors. In the basement they have the restaurant. That is where the Life Members take prasāda. And very nicely dressed people, they go down there and they sit at the tables. And we have a group of devotees chanting bhajana, and they take prasādam and we serve them right at the tables. Then, on the next floor, there is all the time kīrtana and ārati, throughout the Love Feast. It starts from five in the evening till nine. So they have continuously kīrtana and ārati. And also the store. We have a very good store. It's a very big- sized store, and it has all kinds of devotional paraphernalias, all instruments, mūrtis, things to make people take part in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in their homes. And another very popular thing we have, just in front of the temple room we have a big table where we sell flowers and oils which people can purchase to offer to the Deities. And even mukuṭas for the people . . . even though we would have bought them for the Deities anyway, but this way we put them there and the people buy them and then they come and offer them to Rādhā-Govinda, so it's a . . . we don't have to purchase ourselves. And then we sell prasādam. People take home. They like dessert. We sell in box. We have cardboard boxes the same as they have in bakeries where they put bread. We put different types of pastries and other things that have been offered to the Deity as mahā-prasādam. People purchase this. Then on the next floor up there is a lecture room, so there someone's always giving lectures, constantly giving lectures. And then there's different offices there, Life Membership office, so we're enrolling members there. Then the floor after that they have a big lounge, and there we show all the time movies from the cassettes, so people can come in all the time and see movies. Plus there's prasādam. All young people, sitting on the floors, taking prasādam in all the different rooms.

Prabhupāda: They enjoy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. And then again on the next floor up it's the same, plus there's the theater, and the theater has two performances, Sudāmā Mahārāja's group. So a person can go from one floor to another for many hours and take part in different activities and feel very blissful. They love it. The same people love coming again and again, every Sunday. And then there's about eight or nine devotees, their only business is to try and make the people join and become full-time devotees.

Prabhupāda: And book selling?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Book selling . . . we sell at least, say, I would say, something like about four hundred dollars' worth of books every Sunday at the temple. Most of the people who came, they came because they bought your book, and we gave them an invitation to the feast. Everyone who has joined has bought your book first. That is their introduction to Kṛṣṇa consciousness—a book. Very few people come first to a temple. First thing they take and read your book. Then they become interested. The book goes into their home. (break) They can put these. Oh, yeah . . . because they're libraries. I mean, they can buy the books. They can buy the books. The theology, arts . . . nothing wrong with their buying, but probably they . . . from what I know, the general system is that you don't send salesmen into these communist countries. You send a brochure, and they buy through their agents. And this is unheard of, that someone sneaks into a country with all these books and preaches. He said sometimes his life is threatened.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has to run out of the universities because finally, after a while, the officials get notified. They figure out who he is, and then they start chasing him. Then he had to run out.

Prabhupāda: Dangerous affair.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But after all, it is literary. They know we're not . . . it's not like a political spy.

Prabhupāda: All open secret.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: "Here is the book."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still, he's very brave.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This boy is very nice. He graduated top honors from Princeton, president of his class.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He was the president of his class at Princeton University. When he graduated, he was top man in the school. In the Ivy League. That school is as good as Harvard. He's an extraordinarily intelligent . . . I stayed with him for some time. He sleeps three or four hours, maximum, a day. He eats practically nothing. Very austere. Very, very austere. And humble, very humble. Very saintly person. But when he sells your books, he becomes completely different then. It's like Tripurāri. When Tripurāri is . . . normally in the temple he's very humble, quiet. But when he's out there selling . . . he has a new system now. When he was here he told me. He goes to these spiritual fairs, where there's many thousands of people come to learn about spiritual subjects. So he stands there, and he . . . in the normal fairs in the United States, they have a man, they're called carnies. What they do is they stand around—this is the normal-type person—and they gather a big crowd by talking very quickly, and they throw everyone some object for free—say a, some cheap thing, whatever it may be . . . a pen, a fountain pen. They'll pass out twenty of them for free. So that . . . hundreds of people gather around, 'cause they all want to get a free thing. So then after that, he says: "Now everybody who got a pen give me $2, and I'm going to give you something better." So they all put $2 down. Then he says: "Now anyone who wants to get that thing that's better, but you didn't get a pen, you put down $5," and many people put down money. And like this he takes them along, giving a little bit and taking so much money, until eventually people are putting down $50 at a time. I saw this when I was traveling with our buses. We would go to these fairs. Tripurāri, he studied this, and now he's doing it also, but with your books. See, he sells sometimes fifty and sixty books at a time, big books. He knows how . . . he gets people to put down money, telling them that he'll give them something. First he gives out some small thing, then they all put down finally $5, and then he gives everyone a Bhagavad-gītā. (laughing) So he's learned how to do this, but he's . . . sometimes he's selling two and three hundred books in a day—huge quantities of books. He's figured out a new system. So these men, they become very much empowered by you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: All right. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is . . . you know Kīrtirāja from Los Angeles? He says: "Dear Śrīla Prabhupāda, please accept my humble obeisances at your lotus feet. In a humble attempt to give some pleasure to Your Divine Grace I am writing this letter and enclosing some information. I became a member of the Los Angeles . . ."

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Says: "I became a member of the Los Angeles World Affairs Council about six months ago. It is a group of about eight thousand prominent citizens of Los Angeles who are concerned in the foreign policy of the US and in world affairs in general." He's a member now. "They sponsor luncheons for prominent visitors from the US government and foreign governments also. They also have a volunteer program for visitors coming from foreign countries. When the visitor arrives, they have various appointments which have been arranged for them, so volunteers from the World Affairs Council take them to these appointments. I usually take every visitor from the Eastern European countries to at least . . ." Because he speaks Polish, so he's always being asked to take the visitors around, ". . . to at least one appointment and give them a copy of your Bhagavad-gītā . . ." While he's taking them there, he's preaching, and he gives a copy of the Bhagavad-gītā. ". . . a calendar and a copy of a foreign language book, such as the Russian or Hungarian book if they speak that language. Whichever language they speak, we have our books now. I previously brought them to my apartment at the temple, for either lunch or dinner, until one very prominent Russian professor, a very close friend of Dr. Kotovsky, and a Romanian film producer complained to the Washington, D.C. office of the World Affairs Council that they felt very strange being brought to the temple. I think that this was because they were the biggest demons of all."

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "I think that this was because they were the biggest demons that I have ever had here. All of the others liked the temple, and even those two big demons liked the prasādam. They liked my apartment and my family. However, they just didn't like Kṛṣṇa , so they complained. But now I am no more committed to bring these people here. They have checked them." They told him, "You can be a tour man but you can't bring them to your temple." "However, I do take them prasādam and books, and they are grateful to receive these gifts." He has a job, and with the money he makes, he donates the money to buy books and gives these books out. "The people at the World Affairs Council here say I am their most enthusiastic volunteer. I have enclosed some sheets showing those people who have received your books and prasādam, and the positions that they hold. I hope that this is pleasing to Your Divine Grace."

Prabhupāda: Hmm!

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He also included a letter . . . you know the former president was Mr. Ford. So he got a letter from Mr. Ford. It says: "Dear Mr. Jacupko"—that's his karmī name—"I wish to thank you for sending me a copy of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. You were most kind to think of me, and I am deeply grateful for your friendship. With appreciation and best wishes, sincerely, Gerald R. Ford." It's got the US eagle on the letterhead.

Prabhupāda: You can use this letter.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, he says that, "I heard . . ." This is from ex-president Ford. "There was some discussion that perhaps he would be a candidate in the 1980 Presidential election here." Anyway, he's an important man. Then he lists some of the people who have gotten your Bhagavad-gītā as well as other small book in Russian or other languages and prasādam. "Mr. Igor Orligalik, Deputy Director of the Institute of Economy of World Socialist System of the USSR Academy of Sciences. Mr. Alexander Borisov, Assistant Professor at the chair of History of International Relations and Foreign Policy of the USSR, Moscow State Institute. The deputy editor-in-chief of the magazine Science and Life. A deputy head of Department of Developed Capitalistic Countries at the magazine International Affairs." He's got a long list of people. You see, and he keeps a file on all these people, so if ever we go to these countries, then we know which people got our books, and these are all highly placed people, very prominent people. Good work. One of these lunches is very expensive—$7.50 per person. (reads) "Los Angeles World Affairs Council cordially invites you to attend a special luncheon discussion meeting with the USSR-USA Society Delegation to the Soviet Union." This is one such invitation that's put out by these people. Every one of these people who spoke there, all the delegates, he gave them Bhagavad-gītās, the Russian Easy Journey and a calendar. (break) (kīrtana)

Prabhupāda: . . . slaughter, bigger slaughter. This is my practical experience. Father hates. (break)

Devotee: This is pineapple juice. (break)

Prabhupāda: We saw lots of people.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Still . . .

Prabhupāda: In the beginning, when the marriage took place, thousand was common. He was everything. (breaks)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he stopped everyone from wearing saffron.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Somebody said that. He wore . . . (breaks)

Prabhupāda: Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That personality of Kali . . . when Sudāmā Mahārāja was dramatizing—very appropriate. Kali as Sin. Wine, women, intoxication, illicit sex, gambling, LSD. Then Sin said: "Now we will eat our own children."

Prabhupāda: When he says, what the audience thinks?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, the audience, they laugh, and yet the laughing is a little . . . they swallow their laughing. In one sense it's funny—in the other sense they know it is very true, and they feel it. Actually it would be difficult to say such strong thing, but because it is in a formal theater, the audience sits there respectfully, taking it all.

Prabhupāda: So we are criticizing, but . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But no one else is.

Prabhupāda: Nobody understands that these are bad things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Before I met you, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was smoking cigarettes. So I tried to stop so many times, 'cause someone would say it is bad for health. But when you said it is bad for spiritual life, then I could stop, 'cause no one ever said that before, that these things are against spiritual life. No one ever said that. Everything is put on such a mundane level, no one cares. But when we're told that, "You are spirit, and this is against your spiritual life," then it hits very deeply. Apart from you, no one has ever said anything about spiritual life in the West.

Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spirit, what is spiritual life. Everywhere.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, what to speak of the West, these Communist countries . . .

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. In India also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's nothing like your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, anywhere. There's no such thing like that. And now they're gracing the homes of millions and millions of people's shelves. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . the professors there. And I talked with the head of the Botany Department this morning in Agra, Botany. Life Sciences. School is . . . it's a summer vacation, holiday, but we went to his home, and I started talking about our conference.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And I requested him whether he's interested in this type of conference. And I also started talking about evolution. So he told me that it's already proven that life comes from chemicals. Then I told him that, "How do you know?" He told me what he had understood, but he couldn't tell anything. And I told him that, "These are all stories. So you think that whatever knowledge is coming from the West, the Western countries, the United States, is the ultimate. It's written in books. And you never think what is written in the Gītā, in Bhagavad-gītā." He's also a brāhmaṇa. He's a tri-vedi. So I started telling that, "These are all fairy tale stories, and we'd like to prove that whatever science knows so far, it's all wrong." So he was very interested in what I said, (Prabhupāda chuckles) and he said that he's very interested to take part in our conference, and he's coming. He said they can bring many scientists from Agra to participate in the conference. So . . .

Girirāja: Is there many of them?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And I also started telling him little bit about what the significance of this conference will be. I requested him that as Indian scientist it is his also responsibility to look into things very carefully, not just accept things whimsically, even in science. Because in all the Western scientific doctrines, they all say these things without any proof, something very strong statement, saying that this is a factual established, but which is not correct. That's some sort of a cheating. I said he should look into these things very carefully and then make a some sort of assessment, see whether there's anything wrong or this blindly accepting because it is coming from the West. Anything coming from the West it seems to be correct and true, but there have been shown, especially in this case, about the life processes, I said West doesn't know anything about life, the fundamental principles of life. So it is his responsibility as well as the responsibility of the leading scientists to look into these things very carefully, and analyze, and then make a decision like that, not just saying that what is in the books, what is said, this is common proof. Then he was . . . he felt little uneasy, because he just said straight, he said: "It is already proven." And I said: "How do you know?" And he didn't say anything. He didn't even say anymore. So I knew at this stage that he changed his outlook. And I requested him to participate in this program and . . . it will be very meaningful as a normal . . .

Prabhupāda: So you are listing all the men who will participate?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I'm going to have all the . . . I'm leaving tomorrow in the morning, and I'm leaving for Bombay. From there I'm leaving to the States on Friday morning.

Prabhupāda: I want to give you the best place in Bombay.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja told me that.

Prabhupāda: Because you have to invite so many respectable, big scientists.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are coming back just at the end of August. It's only two months. At this time we are all coming here together, and I have organized the Vṛndāvana conference. That's October 14, 15, 16. I have organized for three days. There will be six topics. In each day there'll be two topics.

Prabhupāda: Morning, evening.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Morning and the evening. And I'd like to have six chief guests. All, they will be scientists from Delhi and surrounding areas, some well-known scientists. And also I'm thinking of inviting a few political . . .

Prabhupāda: Leaders.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . leaders. Governor of the state and Educational Minister. Dr. Sharma told me that he can arrange those things easily.

Prabhupāda: So do that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dr. Sharma is very helpful, and he's very interested in this idea.

Prabhupāda: You are doing nicely. Kṛṣṇa will help. (pause)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I wanted to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . yesterday I was asking about that title that, "Bhaktivedanta Vijñāna Conference." That doesn't seem to be attractive. It's not . . .

Prabhupāda: No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So Your Divine Grace has some suggestion?

Prabhupāda: Why not stress that life comes from life, not otherwise?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that will be the theme: life comes from life. Just like "Scientific Conference on Life Comes From Life"?

Prabhupāda: That will be nice.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, I think that will be . . . that will be an interesting title to . . .

Prabhupāda: That will be nice.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we'll title that. We'll make nice posters.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . kato ta holo dekhi. Aro dhalo bhalo kore, dekhte paccho ei jalta! Oi dik thik ache? (Let me see how much is done. Pour some more, can you see this water level? Is everything well on that side?) . . . (indistinct) . . . hmm. You have to attract these men.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "Organized by Bhaktivedanta . . ." Write.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Institute . . .

Prabhupāda: Institute.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Organized by Bhaktivedanta Institute," we will write.

Prabhupāda: Is that all right?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Emon kono lok ache . . . (indistinct) . . . sob scientists rai response dicche! (Are there any people like . . . (indistinct) . . . all scientists are giving responses.)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. I think it will be very interesting.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It will be very interesting to Indian scientists, because some of them have already taken the idea that what is said in the West is correct.

Prabhupāda: That is correct. Sarasvatī jñāna-khale yathā satī (SB 10.2.19). Or ekta lory te capa diye, chai capa agun kore rekhe debe. Chai capa agun . . . (It will be crushed by a lorry, blazing fire will be covered by ashes. Blazing fire covered with ashes.) Fire. Blazing fire subdued by covering with . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Water.

Prabhupāda: . . . ashes. This is going on. Hmm? Ekebare powder . . . ei bhabe . . . (indistinct) . . . esob bhalo khabar. Ete sob foreign scientist der . . . dabi te . . . (Completely powder . . . this way . . . (indistinct) . . . this is good food. These foreign scientists are . . . claim that . . .)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Modern scientists?

Prabhupāda: Arto kebol (Only now the) Indian scientists.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, this will be for everybody, because just starting here. But especially I like to attack the Japan and the United States, 'cause Japan and the United States, they are pretty much the leading powers, very . . .

Prabhupāda: Stubborn.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And I'd like to specially make a strong show in Japan and the United States. So I'd like to attack them as my last point. Getting momentum from the smaller areas and having confidence and also some support from some leading scientists, then I'd like to put my full force in Japan and United States.

Prabhupāda: Japan and . . . make . . . bhalo kore bojhao. (explain it well.)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I have many friends in Japan because when I studied in California, there were many students from Japan, because California is . . .

Prabhupāda: Beshi kono expose lagbe na. Tara tari kore ektu bole dao . . . sange to ache . . . (indistinct) . . . ar besh seriously sunle . . . (indistinct Bengali) (No need to expose more. Tell them quickly . . . it's with you . . . (indistinct) . . . and if you listen seriously . . .)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have to be serious because this is a threat to the existing scientific theory. So they cannot just remain silent. They have to do something, 'cause otherwise we are going to propagate it it's all wrong. So they have to do something. They cannot just remain silent, because . . . we are not just speaking. There will be books, proving that these are all nonsense.

Prabhupāda: (aside) You have got increased snuff boxes?

Upendra: Er, one little one and that big one there. I'll check to see if there's any more.

Prabhupāda: Life is a different material.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Life?

Prabhupāda: Is a different material.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Apart from this physical and chemical . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And life never comes from physical and chemical condition, but it comes from life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But . . .?

Prabhupāda: It comes from life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is to be discussed.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And that original life is Kṛṣṇa .

Prabhupāda: And then Kṛṣṇa , yes. (laughs)

Upendra: Hoye geche. (It has done.)

Prabhupāda: Hoye geche to rekhe dao. Oram aro sob pad niyeche. (If it has been completed, then keep it aside. They have just taken a big rank.) (indistinct discussion with Upendra) Ora ektu shocked holo na ye, ekta (Are they not shocked for that one . . .) (indistinct) They are not shocked?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, they will be shocked. (Prabhupāda laughs) Actually, science doesn't know anything about life. That's what I was pointing out today. Science studies only matter, like physics, chemistry, biology, just chemical reactions . . .

Prabhupāda: Bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Bahir artha. Just like the body is the external feature of my life. So this is bahiḥ. Bahiḥ means external. The vairuddhi . . . the external feature is visible. Therefore it is called dṛśya-guṇa, visible modes of nature. This body . . . (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . is visible part.

Prabhupāda: No, life is not visible to him. He is simply seeing the combination of the modes of nature visible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's a very interesting remark by one of the Nobel Prize–winning chemists. His name is Szent-Gyorgyi. He got Nobel Prize for discovering Vitamin C. And he said he was looking for life for last twenty years or so, but, he said, he wound up with the electrons and protons, which don't have any life. He said, somehow life has escaped through his fingers.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, he says that.

Prabhupāda: That life has escaped and life is required.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, that means they couldn't find life.

Prabhupāda: Bhore diyecho? Ektu besi hoye thake choto ta bhore dao. (Did you fill that up? If there is some extra, then fill that small one.)

Bhakti-caru: Na ote ektu . . . (No, there is some in that . . .)

Prabhupāda: Bhalo. Ebare oi ras ta rekhe dao, aro ene bislesan korbe. (Good. Now store that juice and bring some more, then analyze it.)

Bhakti-caru: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eita proof korte parlei amader Kṛṣṇa Consciousness ache . . . (If we can prove this then our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness has . . .) Life comes from life, and the supreme life, Supreme Being, is God. That is Kṛṣṇa .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kṛṣṇa .

Prabhupāda: Dictionary dekho God mane ki. (What is the meaning of God? Look in the dictionary.) Just see the dictionary, what is the meaning of God . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "God: superhuman being worshiped as having power over nature and the human persons; deity . . ."

Prabhupāda: "Superhuman being."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Superhuman."

Prabhupāda: So His body is like human being. That is admitted. Eita samne bose na korle korte parte? Samne bose eisob na korale bole dile parte? Boi bar karo. Ekhon ekta (Are you able to do this without sitting in front of me? Are you able to do this if I instructed you to only do it? Open the book. Now a) . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It also says: "Supreme Being, creator and the ruler of the universe."

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It also says: "The Absolute Truth."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So it is there in the dictionary, it is in the Vedas, and practically proved. In the Vedas confirmed, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13): "The Supreme Being is the chief living being." There are so many living beings, but He is the original living being. He is the original, eternal substance, and the living beings, they are also eternal, same quality, but He is the Supreme. How He is Supreme? Because He maintains these eternal living beings, and the other living beings, they are maintained by Him. Just like in a family the father is the chief man and he maintains the family, similarly God is the Supreme Being. He maintains all other living beings. Anantyāya. There is no limit. Jīva-bhāgaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa anantyāya kalpate (CC Madhya 19.140). The living beings are . . . they cannot be counted. At night we see, a small insect, millions of, come. Millions. Similarly everywhere you'll go, you'll find full of living . . . jana-kīrṇa, different grades. They're all maintained by God. Therefore He's called chief living being. Quality, the same. He's living being; we are living being. Whatever propensities He has got, we have got. But we are not independent. We are dependent on Him. This position has to be clearly understood. Then we have to surrender to Him to fulfill our desires, and that is bhakti-mārga. Is that clear? Same thing write. There is no other way.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That makes sense.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Otherwise everything falls apart.

Prabhupāda: Just like the finger is my part and parcel of the body. It must work according to my desire. Then it is healthy. Otherwise diseased. I am moving this. It is in healthy condition. If it cannot move by some cause, then it is diseased. So when we are working under the direction of Kṛṣṇa , that is our healthy state. Otherwise diseased. I am . . . I am correct?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya. If a scientist thinks very carefully . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . actually he will be the one who will accept that there is God, because we see practically every . . . in every experiment . . .

Prabhupāda: You are God—limited. Limited God. You cannot maintain. Therefore you are limited. You can become God within your family, within your office, within your kingdom. You are not Supreme God. To a limited extent you are God. Because you have got the quality of God, so according to your capacity, within limited jurisdiction, you may be God. So dictionary is there. Vedic assertion is there. Logic is there. Science is there. Prove. Then your education will be successful. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpitaḥ. When you can prove this, then the meaning of your education will become . . . avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). To glorify the exalted position of God, that is wanted. Is it clear?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). That is Kṛṣṇa . That Supreme Being is Kṛṣṇa .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The origin of life is Kṛṣṇa .

Prabhupāda: Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). From Brahmā we have come. And Brahmā is generated from Kṛṣṇa . Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. So let them come forward and discuss. So we have to prove to the world that it is not brainwashing, it is real knowledge. Why you should keep it suppressed and leave the people in ignorance? It is not your duty to bluff and cheat. That is not science. You are cheating people and getting Nobel Prize. That we have to . . . in a large scale.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There will be immediate reaction from the team called "The Study of the Origin of Life from Chemicals." They have also an international society. They also publish a journal.

Prabhupāda: We have to defeat them.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it will be just like a battle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a battle.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is also a Christian group . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Christianity, a Christian group, they also are trying to counteract modern science, but their approach is very superficial. They also think that somehow God created life, but the way their knowledge is based, it's very superficial, so the scientists don't take anything seriously. They also say that it's only about five thousand years ago that man was created, these groups.

Prabhupāda: Not thousand. Millions. The very beginning. God has brain; therefore we have got brain.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They call Creation Research Institute. They have office in San Diego.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of creation. God is not creator . . . er, not created. He is creator. And as long as God is there, the living beings . . . it is not uncertain. The nityaḥ, śāśvataḥ. Then these two words would not have been used if it is created. He never said.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is eternal.

Prabhupāda: Na jāyate na mriyate (BG 2.20). He never said. Cannot create. They want to create life. Rascal, you cannot do. Not at all. Hmm? You have got sanity?

Upendra: Śrīla Prabhupāda, can you sleep? It's time.

Prabhupāda: I can give you idea. Now you develop. Whatever ideas I am giving, it is nonrefutable idea, final.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It also makes difficult for others to argue.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) When there is argument? Nonsense, how you can argue? And therefore you are rascal. And that is also forbidden. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet (CC Adi 17.308): "Things which are beyond your conception, don't foolishly argue, rascal." That will prove your rascaldom. Better accept what the authority says. It is beyond your conception, rascal. Why you are wasting time? That we want to say, that all of them are rascals, and they are simply wasting time by false idea. Cheating. You know, there are companies. They'll . . . they have got photographic studio. So they adjust their moon hoax. They'll help you. If you have got particular idea—they are going to the moon planet, Mars. Nowhere the rascals go. There is no knowledge. How they can go? Teeny, imperfect. So if we can prove that they have no knowledge of the universe, neither of the position of their . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually if these two things, that life comes from life and this concept of the universe, two points are clear, then everything is taken care of.

Prabhupāda: Very good. Their false propaganda . . . (pause) (break) Scientists, they should seriously charge for the prestige of their Vedic knowledge. "Yes, my . . . yes, sir, you are stating." What is this nonsense? "You are creating some rascals?" "Yes, my lord." In the name of education.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I made an advertisement in MIT saying that . . . Korana is the man who synthesized this gene . . . they thought that might be life. So I was putting in an MIT newspaper in the campus, saying that, "Korana's gene is not life, and virus is not life. These are all molecules. They have nothing to do with life." So we have a lecture coming up next month, July 10th, in the MIT campus, so three of us are going to speak on life coming from life. Because this is an MIT campus, so there'll be many people from his group coming, because it is directly challenging the biggest group in the United States about this . . .

Prabhupāda: So do they accept?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And some Indians are on our side, specially this Indian Student's Association, and also there is an association called Indian Association for Greater Boston. Of all these associations . . . the president and the secretary came to me, and they are supporting us.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they're organizing these lectures, so we have a show on July 10th.

Prabhupāda: Make a great agitation. It will be done, if you work. (pause) A great challenge of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, for the whole world. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Bhakti-caru: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ. These rascals, they do not know. That is going on.

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni-baddhāḥ

(SB 7.5.31)

(long pause) You talked with Dalmia?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dalmia, yeah. I talked briefly yesterday.

Prabhupāda: What does he say?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He liked the idea, but it seems that he doesn't have very intellectual motive.

Prabhupāda: He cannot have. He is a sentimentalist. He has no clear idea. Neither it is possible for him.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We'd like to know this very clearly and see things properly.

Prabhupāda: Nowadays scientific education, the students in the school . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once it is convinced, then it is convinced forever, on a scientific level.

Prabhupāda: Then there will be question, "If the life is eternal, then whatever we have wrongly taken as life, temporary, that is only waste of thought."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That is a corollary. The whole educational system has to be changed.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everything they thought, this chemistry and physics, it's going to be all wrong.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they have no alternative.

Prabhupāda: And that is spiritual knowledge.

Bhakti-caru: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, how it is possible? You have not . . . nothing to do with the material nature. You are spirit.

Bhakti-caru: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then you are spirit. How you can say that your life is correct and . . .? It is all wrong.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the very point, that science studies not life but . . .

Prabhupāda: Superficially.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: External. Just like Prabhupāda's . . . the external manifestations.

Prabhupāda: Features. Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they are mistaken. So this is the whole basis. Once this is clarified, then others will follow just . . .

Prabhupāda: Automatically.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . automatically.

Prabhupāda: And unnecessarily they are wasting time on the material plane.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not only . . . time and effort, energy, money—everything. Some people are almost spending day and night, just . . .

Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are also very dedicated and working, some of the scientists.

Prabhupāda: They have no other alternative.

Bhakti-caru: . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They work so hard and . . .

Prabhupāda: For nothing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But all in their own direction . . .

Prabhupāda: Actually the body is changing. All his efforts—futile. And he is eternal.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is also a blow to the communist world, Communism also. It has several effects.

Prabhupāda: That scientist said life slipped away from his . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, somehow life escaped from his fingers. So that's a proper word. I'm quoting his word, using it as an authentic quote from them. We also use some words which will be not so favorable when they read these things, our things. We're also trying to criticize them, that they are . . .

Prabhupāda: That do.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . intellectually dishonest, try to propagate a false knowledge in the name of scientific knowledge.

Prabhupāda: That moon hoax.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like this man, Crick, is the Nobel Prize winner. He's from Cambridge, a very famous man at this time. He says: "Once we accept that we come from chemicals, then we have a whole new culture which is . . ." He doesn't say what that culture is. He says: "We'll have a whole new culture, and everything will be so easy." And that culture . . . we spelled out that that culture is meaninglessness and voidism.

Prabhupāda: Only useless labor.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. (long pause) (end)