710118 - Conversation - Allahabad

Conversations by Date, 1971

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

710118R1-ALLAHABAD - January 18, 1971 - 36:36 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . a bona fide . . . (indistinct) . . . spiritual master. Bona fide spiritual master means who carries out the order of higher authorities. Otherwise he is not spiritual master. Anyone who manufactures his own process of religion, that is rascaldom. Dharmāṁ tu sakṣād bhagavat-praṇitam (SB 6.3.19).

Just like lawyer, representative of the law, means who carries the order of the supreme executer. He is lawyer. Similarly, a spiritual master means who carries the order of superior authority. We are carrying the order of Caitanya Mahāprabhu or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa taught this Bhagavad-gītā, and He has said that "Anyone who will preach this confidential message of Bhagavad-gītā, he is very dear to Me."

Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . and believers in Sai Baba and other we believe in an incorporeal God . . . (indistinct) . . . nirākāra. So if Kṛṣṇa was . . . (indistinct) . . . Rāma or any other deity or devata, one who was definitely a superior ātman, no doubt about it, but Paramātman is all other religions' God, if something is incorporeal is there, without entering into the cycle of . . .

Prabhupāda: Who says "incorporeal"? Who says?

Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . it is scripture.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Who says "incorporeal"?

Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . in the form of śiva-liṅga. You find it all over India, that, a summary of everything, that incorporeal form, jyotir-rūpa, incorporeal. Jyotir-liṅga, the Hindu svarūpa.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are bringing something else besides Bhagavad-gītā. Just try to understand. We are preaching . . . this International Society for Krishna Consciousness, we are preaching . . .

Guest (1): But you have to understand the relation between the two.

Prabhupāda: That's all . . . that we understand very nicely. It is not that I have to learn from you. We know it very well. But you should know that we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (1): That is true.

Prabhupāda: So this jyotir-liṅga, all these theories, they are not in the Bhagavad-gītā. It may be in other literature, but we are particularly interested in preaching Bhagavad-gītā. Because Bhagavad-gītā is wrongly preached all over the world by nonsense commentation, we want to rectify it. Therefore our Society is specially named "Krishna conscious."

Guest (1): What is wrongly preached about Gītā?

Prabhupāda: Wrong . . . just like yesterday I went that Gītā-Samītī. There is a lamp. Why there is a lamp instead of Kṛṣṇa? Why there is a lamp? Kṛṣṇa is a lamp? And it is Bhagavad . . .

Guest (1): I don't know . . .

Prabhupāda: You do not know. Therefore I say this is wrongly preaching. Why in the place of Kṛṣṇa there is a lamp? Does Kṛṣṇa say?

Guest (1): Lamp has been with us for more than . . . in our mandira . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . Kṛṣṇa is also there.

Guest (1): They must evolve with that idea because . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. First thing is that when you speak of Bhagavad-gītā, it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. So why there is no Kṛṣṇa photograph?

Guest (1): They didn't put the picture.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Therefore your . . . this so-called Gītā Society is not bona fide. At least even in ordinary feature, suppose if there is political meeting, you keep Gandhi, this photo, Jawaharlal Nehru's photo, because they are the political leaders. You are preaching Bhagavad-gītā, Gītā-Samītī, and there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (1): There is little misunderstanding, that Gītā-Jayantī is for . . .

Prabhupāda: No, first of all answer me this question, then you go to Gītā Jayantī. That, your Samītī is Gītā Samītī, and there is not a single picture of Kṛṣṇa. Yes.

Guest (1): We don't know about that one.

Prabhupāda: You were not there present? Oh. That's not . . . I think you were present.

Guest (2): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is misguided.

Guest (2): I never gone there, never been there. They have just named it Gītā Bhavan, that's all.

Prabhupāda: This is misguided. That's all. Now, "Gītā Bhavan," and they have invited me because we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā, and that was Gītā's jayantī—and the speaker of Gītā is not present? Therefore I say that there are so many places—here also—they are wrongly representing Bhagavad-gītā. So our position is to rectify that wrong propaganda of Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (2): So that is what we want to know. What is that wrong propaganda?

Prabhupāda: That is one of the instance. There are many instances, many instances, many instances. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan. In the Ninth Chapter there is verse, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Where he gets this nonsense idea?

Guest (1): No, that Vivekananda also has said.

Prabhupāda: They are all nonsense! Therefore I say they are all nonsense, who deviates from the original text of the Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (2): Swāmījī, by declaring other interpretation as nonsense, you do not . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes! You cannot interpret! First of all if you cannot interpret. First of all my proposal, that you cannot interpret.

Guest (2): We'll come to that, that you are not interpreting correctly does not make me correct. I must be correct also to . . .

Prabhupāda: I am correct so long I present the correct thing, so long I am . . . if I present Kṛṣṇa as it is, then I am correct.

Guest (2): My solution, Swāmījī, most respectfully, is how do you judge that "I am correct"?

Prabhupāda: Because I am presenting what Kṛṣṇa says. First of all you answer this: What is correct, the standard of correctness? You cannot create correctness. When Kṛṣṇa says this, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "You just surrender unto Me, become My bhakta," how you can say: "It is not to Kṛṣṇa"? This is not nonsense? If I say, "Give me a glass of . . ." Just hear me. If I say, "Give me a glass of water," if you say, "It is not to Swāmījī," is that interpretation?

Guest (1): I do not, and again I say . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you answer me. If I say: "Give me a glass of water," and you say: "It is not to Swāmījī."

Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . what the Christ says, Muhammad says, everyone says, that . . .

Prabhupāda: Let them surrender to Christ. But why don't you surrender to Kṛṣṇa?

Guest (1): No, that is true, but . . .

Prabhupāda: That is true, but you do not know how.

Guest (1): No, you see, our . . . even your . . . even your way of thinking and your purpose is that Lord Kṛṣṇa should be the Lord of the whole universe. So we also satisfy . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, Lord Kṛṣṇa is Lord, universe.

Guest (1): Universe?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): So that is what you want to talk with me.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): In that case, you will have to satisfy everybody.

Prabhupāda: I am satisfying everybody. I am preaching that. But it is not possible . . . I am preaching in Europe. Christian, Muhammadans, Jews, they are surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. So I am doing my duty.

Guest (1): If I would be permitted, I would very humbly submit that . . .

Prabhupāda: You may not. You have not to surrender, you may bring some argument. But where I am preaching, they are surrendering.

Guest (1): You are doing a very wonderful work, there is no doubt about it, but the thing is that . . .

Prabhupāda: But you do not like that wonderful work.

Guest (1): . . . judging jury of what we are doing, this is somebody else and not we ourself.

Prabhupāda: Now . . . what you . . . my point is that our Society is clearly giving you the indication that we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (1): Every Society has taken . . .

Prabhupāda: So that's all right. If you like this Kṛṣṇa philosophy, you are welcome. Otherwise, you leave.

Guest (1): We have come here . . .

Prabhupāda: Because first of all say that you are . . .

Guest (1): If you reject . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't talk all together. First of all you must know what is the truth. If your standard of truth is different and my standard of truth is different, then where is the use of talking nonsense? If you have any other truth than Kṛṣṇa, you be satisfied.

Guest (1): Seeking knowledge . . .

Prabhupāda: Seeking God is sufficient. If you take . . . first of all you know my position. Suppose . . .

Guest (2): I understand your position, and I have since the beginning said most respectfully, I beg to submit, and what my submission is, that as a seeker of knowledge, I come to you. Now same . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, that . . . do you know what is the process of seeking knowledge? Do you know that?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Now, first of all answer me. You are seeking knowledge . . .

Guest (2): The thing is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you also hear me. First of all let me know what is the process of seeking knowledge. You cannot make your own process.

Guest (2): The concepts have changed. The thinking has changed from the time . . .

Prabhupāda: No. No. First of all you know that I am speaking from Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā says, tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). Is it not? Tad viddhi praṇipātena. You have to surrender first of all.

Guest (2): Surrender to whom?

Prabhupāda: Anyone wherefrom you are seeking knowledge.

Guest (2): Ah! Surrender and . . .

Guest (1): You lose your identity. You lose your identity.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all you have to find out a person where you can surrender. Then you can ask and you can seek knowledge. Otherwise, there is no . . . simply waste of time. Why should you waste your time? Why shall I waste my time? Are you surrendered to me? If you have not surrendered to me . . .

Guest (2): I, I . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Stop this. Just try to understand. If you have not surrendered to me, you have no right to ask me anything.

Guest (2): Before one surrenders to somebody, he should be satisfied first with the questions . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . yes. So that, that . . . now that satisfaction, I cannot satisfy for your whims.

Guest (2): It is not a whim. It is common sense . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, one thing is that I am preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Guest (2): That is true.

Prabhupāda: If you talk on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you can ask me.

Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yesterday you said in our night gathering, I remember, that we have to rise above body consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is in the Gītā.

Guest (2): And we have to be soul conscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): Now, the idea of rising above body consciousness is to sell off the wild things—kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, ahaṅkāra.

Guest (2): Ahaṅkāra . . .

Guest (1): Now, that is one thing that it is there in all scriptures. The Gītā also says that kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, ahaṅkāra must be checked. Now, if we are being moved with that pride and arrogance that, "We are the only correct calling. This is the only correct path," and that, "You have to surrender from the beginning," now that only aggravates the pride in a person, and that . . .

Prabhupāda: Then what can I do? Kṛṣṇa says . . . if you talk, two, I cannot answer. You talk with me one.

Guest (2): No, we have talked with reasoning.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't talk two. I cannot answer with all these reasons. Either you talk or then let him talk.

Guest (2): I am talking. I am talking now.

Prabhupāda: Then you talk. Let him talk.

Guest (2): So we have to tear all these vices that are connected with our body. That is our purpose of getting into either bhakti or nāma or whatever it may be.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): But in that way, if you talk from that, another way of ahaṅkāra and pride, then things cannot go far. Things cannot go far.

Prabhupāda: So shall I answer now? Now you stop; I answer. Now Kṛṣṇa says:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi . . .

(BG 18.66)

Even though you have got so many sinful life, Kṛṣṇa assures that "If you surrender unto Me, I shall give you protection from the reaction."

Guest (2): That is another thing. Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa . . . Kṛṣṇa, yes. Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): Surrender to Kṛṣṇa, not surrender to all who . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Surrender to Kṛṣṇa. We are saying not "Surrender unto me." We say, always say: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Therefore the same word. I am not saying that, "I have become Kṛṣṇa. I have become God. You surrender to me." We are preaching, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we are not speaking differently from Kṛṣṇa. You try to understand. We are saying . . . suppose if I say, "Give me a glass of water," and if you say: "Oh, give Swāmījī immediately a glass of . . ." the same thing.

Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa also says in Gītā that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, first of all you try to understand this, that Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ: "only unto Me."

Guest (3): "I am the only one." "I am the . . ." Sarva-dharmān . . .

Prabhupāda: Again you are speaking. I am talking with him. Again you are speaking. No, no. I cannot answer in that way. Let him talk. No, no. You stopped me. Let him talk. Otherwise it is not possible. You put some question, he puts some question, it is not possible. Now Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Now what do you say? He is very proud?

Guest (2): He's entitled to be proud . . . (indistinct) . . . if a person has said that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Guest (2): Let him say that, but it doesn't mean everybody will be able to be His follower. That doesn't mean that. Maybe He has said.

Prabhupāda: But then He doesn't say. You say: "You follow me." Now it is your discretion to follow Him or not to follow Him. Kṛṣṇa said this to Arjuna. That does not mean everyone of the world, like Arjuna, surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Anyone, if he says, even Kṛṣṇa, or God, says, it is not that everyone follows that. That independence you have got.

But our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa says: "You surrender unto Me," and we are imploring, we are begging persons that, "You please surrender to Kṛṣṇa." Now it is your discretion. Whether you surrender to Kṛṣṇa or Lord Śiva, that is your discretion. But our preaching method is we are trying to preach in the world, Please sir not to Kṛṣṇa." That is our . . .

Guest (3): Sir, can I speak now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): With your permission. I believe in Gītā. I believe in this thing, that it is the Lord who says:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja

ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

(BG 18.66)

And it is . . . He says also in Seventh, Eighth and Ninth chapters of Gītā that Hey Arjuna, Mera janm divya aur alaukik hai. (Oh Arjuna, My birth is divine and supernatural.) "I do not take part in that ordinary being, and I cannot be seen by the naked eye."

Prabhupāda: Then you find . . .

Guest (3): Kṛṣṇa was body incarnate.

Prabhupāda: Then you mean to say that Kṛṣṇa contradicts.

Guest (3): No, not Kṛṣṇa contradicts.

Prabhupāda: Then why you bring this question?

Guest (3): The Gītā, the Gītā is . . . sir, if I may be permitted to continue?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (3): Gītā jñāna itself is given by Lord incorporeal, not to Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa was a medium.

Guest (3): Kṛṣṇa, it is told, at the time the jñāna was given, had a body which became divya . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your interpretation.

Guest (3): That is exactly what . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you say. Anyone who . . . anyone . . . whatever he says, he thinks like that, exact. That is another thing. But we know that Kṛṣṇa had no difference between His body and soul. He is absolute. Now, you are talking from the point of view that Kṛṣṇa's body and Kṛṣṇa's soul is different.

Guest (3): Ah, no. In every body . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not the fact. That is not the fact.

Guest (1): Sir, Kṛṣṇa could not be the two-handed . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, you say: "Could not," but we do not say like that. Now who will settle up this thing? You say, but I do not say.

Guest (3): If you say: "This is not the body . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We are to speak on the Bhagavad-gītā. We are talking on Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says that mām ekam. He never says that "to My soul."

Guest (3): No. He says: "I am one."

Prabhupāda: Therefore He is one, both body and soul. One. That is one.

Guest (1): Swāmījī, the material aspect, in your estimation, they are one?

Prabhupāda: Therefore He is nonmaterial. Therefore He has spoken . . . no, no, if you compare with Him ordinary man, then at once you become a mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. No, you say . . . this is the saying of Bhagavad-gītā. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā manuṣīṁ tanum āśritaḥ (BG 9.11). Kyunki mai, (Because I,) "Because I have taken this human form of life, the rascals, they think I am a human being." It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Guest (2): I think . . . as my understanding of this aspect is concerned, He says: "When I adopt this medium through which I give this jñāna, mūḍhā-matī do not understand Me."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, mūḍhā-matī, how to understand?

Guest (2): "Cannot recognize Me."

Prabhupāda: Suppose I am mūḍhā-matī, so how I am to understand?

Guest (2): Yes, but sir Kṛṣṇa as a body form could be seen and could be recognized by people as such. So there was no question of not understanding Him.

Prabhupāda: Thing is that whatever I have understood about Kṛṣṇa, I haven't got to learn from you.

Guest (2): No, you don't have to learn from me.

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Guest (2): But what you have to learn . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking my own views. I have got my ācāryas, my teachers—Rāmānujācārya, Śaṅkarācārya, Madhvācārya.

Guest (2): This is all right, sir.

Prabhupāda: So it is all right. It is all right. I have got so many authorities. What authority you have got?

Guest (2): I am, myself, in my own senses . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, you are not authority.

Guest (2): I am not, but my own . . .

Prabhupāda: I am following so many authorities. Then . . . then there is no question.

Guest (2): I am only . . .

Prabhupāda: You are yourself authority. Now, if you say my views are not correct, I may be incorrect, but I am following the predecessor. I am taking . . .

Guest (2): So what is the difference there? Sir, I accept that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): . . . hundred percent. You are very correct in saying what you have just said.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): I want to understand that point of view. That is why I have come.

Prabhupāda: But this is the point of understanding. That I have already told you, in the Bhagavad-gītā, that if you want to understand, first of all you have to surrender.

Guest (2): Surrender to whom? Not to the ācāryas, but to the . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all find out whom to surrender, then talk.

Guest (2): . . . supreme ācārya.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. If you think that you are not fit for my surrender, that's all right. But first of all you find out somebody where you can surrender, then talk.

Guest (1): To jñāna-datta Himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. If you surrender and if you get jñāna-datta, that is all right. So far we are concerned, if we do not surrender, if you do not surrender, then you simply waste our time, idle talk. This is not the process.

Guest (1): You have to treat the person with . . . (indistinct) . . . difficult for us to get the knowledge from you.

Guest (2): For seeking knowledge from him.

Prabhupāda: But you are not seeking knowledge. You have come to challenge it. You have come to challenge.

Guest (2): No, no, no . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, you are saying that Kṛṣṇa says that incorporeal. But Kṛṣṇa says that, "Anyone who thinks that I am incorporeal, that he is a fool."

Guest (1): Quite right. Lord Kṛṣṇa, as such, if anybody calls Him incorporeal, he's a fool.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): But because He has a body, He has taken birth from Devakī. And incorporeal does not. Incorporeal does not take birth.

Prabhupāda: Therefore the Kṛṣṇa says that one has to understand that what is Kṛṣṇa's birth. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. So that tattvata is not yo. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa actually, he becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Anyone simply who understands Kṛṣṇa, he becomes immediately liberated. If you understood Kṛṣṇa correctly, then you are liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me.

Guest (2): It is what . . .

Prabhupāda: No, that's all. Then you are a liberated person. You have nothing to ask from me. I am for those who are conditioned, but you are liberated, so you have nothing to ask from me.

Guest (4): Rest of us, we persons, go.

Prabhupāda: Then you are liberated, you have nothing to go. If you are liberated, then you have nothing to seek, knowledge.

Guest (5): Thank you for listening. Time and place. He's already said that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are liberated, you have nothing to go anywhere, because you know everything.

Guest (2): May I again submit with the honor that you have bestowed on me of having said that I am already liberated according to the version of Gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: If you have understood Kṛṣṇa, then you are liberated.

Guest (2): I still feel . . . I still feel . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you haven't got to seek knowledge.

Guest (2): I still feel that . . .

Prabhupāda: You be satisfied with yourself. You are liberated.

Guest (5): That means those who are to follow you are not liberated.

Prabhupāda: I am not follow . . . er, I don't say: "Follow me." I say, "Follow Kṛṣṇa." Why . . .? Don't mistake that. I say . . . my vision is that Kṛṣṇa says: "Surrender unto Me." I say, you and everyone, "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa."

Guest (5): That you make wherever you are spreading, not that idea . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Well, that is my business. Where I am spreading or not, that is my business. But I am saying this, that Kṛṣṇa says you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, "Surrender unto Me." I say: "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa." Is there any difference?

Guest (5): (indistinct) . . . according to our desire . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Is it not according to Gītā? Is it not according to Gītā? If I say: "Surrender unto Kṛṣṇa" . . .

Guest (5): . . . if each and every person has an individual identity of . . . (indistinct) . . . soul above the body consciousness, and unless you treat him as equal, there is little . . .

Prabhupāda: No, nobody . . . you cannot say . . . even though they are equal, you can see equal, but they are not equal. They are not equal. There are three guṇas, and in the Bhagavad-gītā that is analyzed, that "These persons are in the sattva-guṇa, these persons are in the rajo-guṇa, these persons are in . . ."

Guest (5): That is not personality of the ātmā, but the ātmā is everybody's soul.

Prabhupāda: That's all . . . first of all we have . . .

Guest (5): If you have potency to rise and go higher and higher . . .

Prabhupāda: You are not on the ātmā stage; I am not in the ātmā stage. You are in the bodily stage.

Guest (5): Both, body and soul, together . . .

Prabhupāda: Then if you are in the ātmā stage, then you have no argument with me. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).

Guest (5): But argument, you have admitted that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, there is no argument. That will stop. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54).

Guest (5): It is on arguments get down . . .

Prabhupāda: No. If you are . . . just see. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, that:

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

(BG 5.18)

If you are in the spiritual platform, then you will see a learned brāhmin, a dog, a caṇḍāla, a elephant—they are in the same stage. So there is no argument, because he sees a dog and the learned brāhmin, the same position.

Guest (3): That is the correct position.

Prabhupāda: That is correct position. But if you find that "Swāmījī is not on the standard," that means you are not in the posit . . . sama-darśinaḥ.

Guest (3): You mean if a person commits a murder, a sinner . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very high stage. That is very high stage, sama-darśinaḥ.

Guest (3): No, no. If a person commits a murder, you are seeing . . .

Prabhupāda: So why you see, you are seeing, "Commits murder"? Why don't you see that it is Kṛṣṇa is acting there? Why you say that "commits murder"?

Guest (2): Kṛṣṇa is getting the sin committed.

Prabhupāda: Sama-darśinaḥ means you have no distinction what is sin and what is . . .

Guest (1): Sama-darśinaḥ means to treat everyone as equal.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Sama darśinaḥ means there is no distinction between sin and virtue. That is sama-darśinaḥ. As soon as you see, "This is virtue, and this is sin," it is not sama-darśinaḥ.

Guest (1): Virtue and sin become the same in sama-darśinaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sama-darśinaḥ.

Guest (2): In other words, the sin does not remain sin any longer.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But he has no vision that "This is sin, and this is virtue." That is sama-darśinaḥ. As soon as you make distinction, you are not sama-darśinaḥ.

Guest (2): In another interpretation, in common parlance . . .

Prabhupāda: You may interpret in a different. Sama-darśi, this is plain word. Sama-darśi means there is no difference. That's all.

Guest (2): But sama-darśi equals sama-darśi. The sin and virtue are the same.

Prabhupāda: No, here . . . yes, that is sama-darśinaḥ, because here it is said clearly, vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmin (BG 5.18). A brāhmin, learned brāhmin, and vinaya, very humble . . . that is the sign of goodness. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇa gavi hastini śunica.

Śunica means dog. Now he is seeing a dog and a learned brāhmin, same. Now, dog is supposed to be sinful, and this learned brāhmin is supposed to be virtuous. Therefore his vision, the virtuous and the sinful, the same. That is sama-darśi.

Guest (1): I think that they have made many mistakes in writing of the ślokas.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Now you are finding mistake with Vyāsa, so who can talk with you?

Guest (2): No, no, but, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Please excuse me. Please go out. Please go out. Don't trouble me. You are finding faults with Vyāsa.

Guest (4): We only want you to be understood here.

Prabhupāda: (shouting) I am not sama-darśi! I don't say I'm sama-darśi!

Guest (2): Who is sama-darśi?

Prabhupāda: I don't say sama-darśi. So you say sama-darśi. Sama-darśi.

Guest (2): You should be sama-darśi.

Prabhupāda: But I am not in that stage. I say because you don't surrender to Kṛṣṇa, you are sinful. That is my darśana.

Guest (4): So then you should be also seeing as sama-darśinaḥ.

Prabhupāda: No, why shall I? I am not in that position. I am not within that . . . I am simply repeating the words of Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (4): Then that . . . we came to learn, giving your . . .

Prabhupāda: I am simply teaching the teachings of Kṛṣṇa. That is my point. I may be sama-darśi, I may be not sama-darśi.

Guest (4): May not be, but you teach that we should worship the sama-darśi.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. I don't say.

Guest (4): Ah! You say Kṛṣṇa says that . . .

Prabhupāda: But that does not mean one has become sama-darśinaḥ. That is . . . that is his . . .

Guest (4): Then he is not following the guru.

Prabhupāda: No. My position is simply repeating. That's all. My position is.

Guest (2): So we want understanding more than mere tape recorder.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you may be tape . . . but that is my position, because I have been authorized in that way, that "Anyone who preaches this confidential subject matter, he is My dear." So I have nothing to learn what is sama-darśi. I have my position . . .

Guest (4): No, blind following and open-eyed following, I said it is all right. We can read the book. We can read the verses, translation, Hindi translation. But that is not understanding.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not understanding, I understand. But I am understanding from my teachers, just like I told you—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. There are so many stalwart teachers, practically whole Hindu community.

Guest (6): But every successive teacher has added some interpretations of the knowledge, no?

Prabhupāda: First of all let him be successor.

Guest (4): You are the successor of somebody.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Guest (4): Yes. So you want to act something to get knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (4): And what is your contribution, then? That is what we are asking. What is sama-darśi? Have you become sama-darśi?

Guest (6): You are teaching others to be sama-darśi . . .

Prabhupāda: My sama-darśi is that why only the Hindus shall know Kṛṣṇa? The world should know Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (6): World should know also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (2): What exactly Kṛṣṇa was and what is His teachings? That is what . . .

Prabhupāda: So if you . . . if the Hindus refuse to know, what can I do? If the Hindus refuse to know, then what can I do?

Guest (6): There is no challenge to anyone. We are not . . .

Guest (3): We are not issuing challenge to anyone. This is a simple open-hearted discussion that we should have learned something, though we are not in a position to make . . .

Haṁsadūta: But the process of knowing, in Bhagavad-gītā . . . Kṛṣṇa says: "Just try to approach a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render him all kinds of service. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. And when you have thus learned the truth, you will know that all living beings are My parts and parcels, that they are in Me and are Mine." So if one is not prepared to approach a spiritual master inquiringly—not challenging, but with inquiry and followed by submission or service . . .

You must be prepared to act on the instructions of the spiritual master. If those two qualifications are not with you, then why approach anyone for anything? You will simply waste his time and your time. This is Kṛṣṇa speaking in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says: "You just try to approach a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively. Render him all kinds of service. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

Guest (2): There is a difference of day and night between blind following and His following.

Haṁsadūta: That is not blind following. Submissive inquiry, and then you have to be prepared to test. Just like the professor, the professor in a college. He says: "You inquire from me." "My dear professor, how is it?" He says: "It is like this. You simply do this homework." And you do it. You have to do it, otherwise you cannot get any mark; you cannot make any advancement in the class. If you simply say, "Oh, why, why, why . . .?"

Guest (1): No, no, but . . .

Haṁsadūta: That is submission. That is inquiry and submission, that the master is there and you say: "All right, I accept you as my master and I will follow your instruction." And then in the end, when you have done the work, then you can say: "Oh, this master, yes, he is correct," or "No, he's a fool."

Guest (6): You have caught up only one śloka.

Haṁsadūta: There is no other way. It is not possible. Every śloka in the Bhagavad-gītā is as good as any other śloka, because it is absolute.

Guest (6): Let me tell two words. If submissive word means in relation of Gītā . . .

Haṁsadūta: Yes, the perfect example given by Arjuna, the perfect disciple, is "Now I am confused about duty . . ."

Guest (7): No more than you or I.

Haṁsadūta: Arjuna says to Kṛṣṇa . . . Arjuna says to Kṛṣṇa . . . what does he say?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. First let me know whether you want to submit or not?

Guest (8): I do!

Prabhupāda: First of all answer this question, whether you want to submit or not.

Guest (6): We want to submit after understanding. (Indians talking at once)

Haṁsadūta: Try to understand. The teaching of Bhagavad-gītā, teaching of Bhagavad-gītā begins when Arjuna admits, when he admits that, "Oh, now I see. Now I am confused about my duty, and now I am a soul surrendered unto You. You please instruct me."

Guest (6): We don't want . . . we have not come here . . .

Haṁsadūta: If you are not prepared to follow the example of Arjuna and submit yourself . . .

Guest (2): Swami Bhaktivedanta has said . . .

Haṁsadūta: No, no, no.

Guest (2): When we are all . . .

Haṁsadūta: One at a time. One at a time. Let me make my point, that Gītā begins . . . the reason Gītā has value is because Arjuna, he admits his ignorance. He says: "Now I am confused about my duty and I am a soul surrendered unto You. You please instruct me." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. And if, if we want to take, or if we want to get the benefit of Gītā, then we must follow the example of Arjuna, who is the perfect disciple, and Kṛṣṇa is the perfect master. And the first point is you must become submissive.

Guest (2): We understand now what you mean: submissiveness.

Haṁsadūta: So that same thing is there if you want to learn from a spiritual master, that you come with an attitude of submission and prepared to follow the instruction. But if you think, "Well, if I like the instruction, I may follow. And if I don't like, then let him go to hell," then what is the use of inquiry?

Guest (2): No, no, no. We don't want Prabhupāda . . .

Guest (1): That is not the idea. Submissiveness is the only lesson of Gītā.

Haṁsadūta: That is the only lesson. "You just give up all . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, we cannot hear any more. That is the only lesson. That is the only example.

Haṁsadūta: That is the only lesson. Kṛṣṇa says: "Give up all forms of religiousness and just surrender unto Me."

Guest (2): You are taking one śloka. You can interpret . . .

Haṁsadūta: Any śloka. Any śloka.

Prabhupāda: Neither you can give up this śloka. You cannot give up this śloka. Yes.

So first of all you answer. See practical example. When Arjuna became confused, he said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7): "Now I am surrendered unto You. Please teach me." Unless you come to that point, there will be no teaching, and there is no use of teaching.

Guest (7): What time and what energy . . .

Prabhupāda: That you have to see. You have to see. You have to see your time, when you are prepared to surrender. When you are prepared to surrender, as Kṛṣṇa . . . Arjuna said that, "I am now confused and I surrender unto You." If you think that you are not confused, you cannot surrender, then there is no question of teaching.

Guest (2): Surrender is the first condition. "You must surrender" is the first condition.

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Guest (2): No man . . . (break) (end)